I think it depends on how much the Azusa build can disrupt them in the early game. They should be disrupting each other too, so your main goal is the same as theirs...disrupt them and win quickly. Azusa can certainly win out of nowhere, or at the worst knock them so far back with things like Annihilator that they'll never recover. The question then becomes, is she capable of effectively disrupting them long enough to do this? I think she actually does have a decent array of tools:
The overarching question, in my mind, as regards all these cards and the aspects of playing Azusa that they support is this: at what point are you slowing yourself down too much / promoting inconsistency in your ability to be explosive in an attempt to disrupt your opponents? It seems to me that there's probably a happy middle ground, and you can either have too little disruption on the one hand, or too much on the other hand. Both scenarios are less than optimal.
One of the most essential parts of a successful Azusa deck is missing from the OP: draw power. Horn of Greed, Recycle, Seer's Sundial and Oracle of Mul Daya are obvious auto-includes. I have also seen some Azusa decks that successfully run Howling Mine effects as well, though. Azusa tends to be able to drop everything she draws (not limited by mana and a lot of her draws are land) while other players are limited by mana, so the extra draws are better for her.
From what I've seen in my meta, Well of Knowledge works better than Howling Mine - most other decks can afford to activate it only once per turn (or even not at all) if they want to play something significant that turn, while Azusa can activate it multiple times and still have enough mana for playing her spells.
I'm on the fence with Krosan Grip though, because it's a meta call (people combo off of cards like Altars, so it's a way of stopping them), but for now it stays.
In case you didn't notice: Krzaku stopped playing his Glissa already and I stopped playing Ghave as well.
(On second thought, I'm playing Ashnod's Altar and Blasting Station in my Teysa deck as well, so maybe you're right after all... :tongue:)
From what I've seen in my meta, Well of Knowledge works better than Howling Mine - most other decks can afford to activate it only once per turn (or even not at all) if they want to play something significant that turn, while Azusa can activate it multiple times and still have enough mana for playing her spells.
In case you didn't notice: Krzaku stopped playing his Glissa already and I stopped playing Ghave as well.
(On second thought, I'm playing Ashnod's Altar and Blasting Station in my Teysa deck as well, so maybe you're right after all... :tongue:)
I definitely agree about Well > Mine. I hate giving my opponents any resources, but Well and Horn of Greed are pretty much 1-sided, given how much we can abuse them in comparison to most other decks.
From what I've seen in my meta, Well of Knowledge works better than Howling Mine - most other decks can afford to activate it only once per turn (or even not at all) if they want to play something significant that turn, while Azusa can activate it multiple times and still have enough mana for playing her spells.
I didn't even know that card existed. Great addition, definitely goes before the Howling Mine effects. I only run Mikokoro, Center of the Sea at the moment, but I've considered adding more.
With Azusa, you're either being a complete cockhole or you're playing the deck wrong.
Pretty much this. If you have qualms eating land with strip mine every turn if need be, its difficult to always make the best play. Many people dislike the eldrazi as well. Oh Well.
Pretty much this. If you have qualms eating land with strip mine every turn if need be, its difficult to always make the best play. Many people dislike the eldrazi as well. Oh Well.
Oh how I love Strip Mining for someone for 3 lands per turn. I think I was able to do it for 4 with Oracle of Mul Daya on board in one game, but I never had both Oracle and Exploration on board at the same time to be able to hit someone for 5 (back when I used to run Exploration).
Oh how I love Strip Mining for someone for 3 lands per turn. I think I was able to do it for 4 with Oracle of Mul Daya on board in one game, but I never had both Oracle and Exploration on board at the same time to be able to hit someone for 5 (back when I used to run Exploration).
A guy picked on me one game, so the next game I ate all his land away, 4 at a time, and then smashed him in the face with a hasted Ulamog with infect just to get the point across.
This is out of pure curiosity (although expanding my knowledge of more-or-less useless information is always good :)), but what 3 spells are those, exactly?
Legendary Eldrazi don't have ETB triggers and the triggers they do actually have can be countered with at least three different cards.
No need to be overly pedantic. I was phrasing it in a way that is easily-understood by most readers. Of course, it's not a true ETB trigger, and yes, there are ways to counter pretty much anything if you look for them (at the very least there's Time Stop). And I didn't specify the eldrazi as legendary because Artisan of Kozilek has a similar trigger.
i dont know if its relevant, but i just posted my list with a brief summary on card choices over in the multiplayer decks sub forum. i give input on a lot of these topics. not much traffic over on that thread though... so either my list is terrible, and i have no idea what im talking about, or she has just been discussed to death.... or maybe my list is just that good. who knows.
She's widely regarded as EDH training wheels around here because if you play her, you're probably just throwing tons of money into an EDH deck that requires no skill and offers the most linear playstyle in the format. The only people who play it around here are the people who try to turn EDH into something as monotonous as standard. It's as obnoxious a general as Kaalia but at least Kaalia has some flavor. Honestly, it's just annoying. Turn 4, tooth and nail, avenger of zendikar, craterhoof behemoth, gg. EDH is about playing those cards we so desperately miss, not putting us on a 5 turn clock. Of course, what do I know? I just try to enjoy magic. I did win an FNM with an Azorus Elocutor deck though.
i dont know if its relevant, but i just posted my list with a brief summary on card choices over in the multiplayer decks sub forum. i give input on a lot of these topics. not much traffic over on that thread though... so either my list is terrible, and i have no idea what im talking about, or she has just been discussed to death.... or maybe my list is just that good. who knows.
I think it's two things: (1) there's a ton of Azusa decklists floating about in the multiplayer subforum these days; and (2) I feel like a decklist thread has to hit a certain critical mass before people really pay attention to it and contribute to it. It's basically a matter of needing views/comments to get views/comments. Once a bit of discussion starts to take place, it usually kind of takes off exponentially. At least that's been my experience with most decklists. Threads like that for my Wydwen, the Biting Gale decklist will probably never really take off, because people only care to play her in 1v1.
No need to be overly pedantic. I was phrasing it in a way that is easily-understood by most readers. Of course, it's not a true ETB trigger
I obviously knew what you meant but decided to point out the difference anyway because it's quite important. If the big, scary Eldrazi had ETB triggers, they would be significantly worse in Azusa - one simple counterspell and your whole plan is ruined, you're tapped out and got nothing. Triggering on cast means that you're getting something out of the deal almost every time.
And I didn't specify the eldrazi as legendary because Artisan of Kozilek has a similar trigger.
I know, but the simple "Eldrazi" includes all of them, even those with actual ETB triggers (Dread Drone, Emrakul's Hatcher, Kozilek's Predator and Nest Invader), hence my wording.
I obviously knew what you meant but decided to point out the difference anyway because it's quite important. If the big, scary Eldrazi had ETB triggers, they would be significantly worse in Azusa - one simple counterspell and your whole plan is ruined, you're tapped out and got nothing. Triggering on cast means that you're getting something out of the deal almost every time.
I know, but the simple "Eldrazi" includes all of them, even those with actual ETB triggers (Dread Drone, Emrakul's Hatcher, Kozilek's Predator and Nest Invader), hence my wording.
Fair enough. I guess non-Drone eldrazi or colorless eldrazi is the best way of putting it then.
She's widely regarded as EDH training wheels around here because if you play her, you're probably just throwing tons of money into an EDH deck that requires no skill and offers the most linear playstyle in the format. The only people who play it around here are the people who try to turn EDH into something as monotonous as standard. It's as obnoxious a general as Kaalia but at least Kaalia has some flavor. Honestly, it's just annoying. Turn 4, tooth and nail, avenger of zendikar, craterhoof behemoth, gg. EDH is about playing those cards we so desperately miss, not putting us on a 5 turn clock. Of course, what do I know? I just try to enjoy magic. I did win an FNM with an Azorus Elocutor deck though.
Also, I'm a little bit over this attitude towards Azusa. I can (and do) hand off my Azusa deck to someone who doesn't know it inside and out to let them play it for the night and watch them completely botch it, given that they don't know the synergies that the deck is built on.
Wrong. Mimeoplasm/malestrom wanderer good stuff is brainless boring edh.
Azusa is definitely thee mono green general you play when you think "I want to play green" but she's extreamy open ended and flexible besides the usual; ramp into a huge genesis wave fatty explosion and win.
You say that, yet every Azusa deck is ramp into stupid fatty, explosion with Greater Good/Momentous Fall + recursion, etc. The problem with most mono-green generals is they play out the same. Azusa is not that dissimilar.
Also, I'm a little bit over this attitude towards Azusa. I can (and do) hand off my Azusa deck to someone who doesn't know it inside and out to let them play it for the night and watch them completely botch it, given that they don't know the synergies that the deck is built on.
The "synergies" in Azusa deck are just interactions between staple cards for mono-green ramp that are incredibly ubiquitous at this point. Once someone becomes familiar with said cards, its blatantly obvious what is going on. Sure...if you grab the deck and you are just learning how to play MTG / aren't familiar with many cards outside of Standard you might not know how to play this deck-- but that goes with every eternal format deck.
The "synergies" in Azusa deck are just interactions between staple cards for mono-green ramp that are incredibly ubiquitous at this point. Once someone becomes familiar with said cards, its blatantly obvious what is going on. Sure...if you grab the deck and you are just learning how to play MTG / aren't familiar with many cards outside of Standard you might not know how to play this deck-- but that goes with every eternal format deck.
Fair enough, but then the same goes for pretty much every EDH deck, and Azusa shouldn't be singled out as being "training wheels" mode.
The deck requires no skill to play, less skill to build, is immensely linear and ruins the fun for most other players. It's pretty much the definition of what's wrong with the format. There are much more fair and intriguing generals. Omnath is fair and opens up a ton of styles of play without ruining the spirit of EDH. He also makes for an outstanding general.
The deck requires no skill to play, less skill to build, is immensely linear and ruins the fun for most other players. It's pretty much the definition of what's wrong with the format. There are much more fair and intriguing generals. Omnath is fair and opens up a ton of styles of play without ruining the spirit of EDH. He also makes for an outstanding general.
That seems dubious to me, considering that working towards optimizing my Azusa list has required more brainstorming and dialoguing with fellow players than arguably any other deck I've built (which has been a lot). Making sure you have carefully considered each and every card slot is of the utmost importance when your commander has the potential to be as explosive as Azusa is. Your decisions can either lead to her being mindblowingly amazing, or relatively mediocre.
Here's the thing. I'm about 80% Spike 20% Johnny, so the fact that Azusa allows me to ramp into any number of given fatties is largely irrelevant to me. The fact is that she's arguably the most competitive green commander. And that's really all that I care about. But thanks for coming in, ignoring the entirety of the OP, and spouting completely inane and irrelevant babble about how you personally dislike Azusa. I get the feeling I'm being trolled, and I can't believe I took the time to fall for it and respond.
That seems dubious to me, considering that working towards optimizing my Azusa list has required more brainstorming and dialoguing with fellow players than arguably any other deck I've built (which has been a lot). Making sure you have carefully considered each and every card slot is of the utmost importance when your commander has the potential to be as explosive as Azusa is. Your decisions can either lead to her being mindblowingly amazing, or relatively mediocre.
Here's the thing. I'm about 80% Spike 20% Johnny, so the fact that Azusa allows me to ramp into any number of given fatties is largely irrelevant to me. The fact is that she's arguably the most competitive green commander. And that's really all that I care about. But thanks for coming in, ignoring the entirety of the OP, and spouting completely inane and irrelevant babble about how you personally dislike Azusa. I get the feeling I'm being trolled, and I can't believe I took the time to fall for it and respond.
Eh, some of us care about keeping the spirit and integrity of EDH alive, other's want to turn it into a 4-5 turn boring format like Standard and Modern. I, for one, want to retain at least one format that is enjoyable.
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The overarching question, in my mind, as regards all these cards and the aspects of playing Azusa that they support is this: at what point are you slowing yourself down too much / promoting inconsistency in your ability to be explosive in an attempt to disrupt your opponents? It seems to me that there's probably a happy middle ground, and you can either have too little disruption on the one hand, or too much on the other hand. Both scenarios are less than optimal.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
From what I've seen in my meta, Well of Knowledge works better than Howling Mine - most other decks can afford to activate it only once per turn (or even not at all) if they want to play something significant that turn, while Azusa can activate it multiple times and still have enough mana for playing her spells.
In case you didn't notice: Krzaku stopped playing his Glissa already and I stopped playing Ghave as well.
(On second thought, I'm playing Ashnod's Altar and Blasting Station in my Teysa deck as well, so maybe you're right after all... :tongue:)
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
I definitely agree about Well > Mine. I hate giving my opponents any resources, but Well and Horn of Greed are pretty much 1-sided, given how much we can abuse them in comparison to most other decks.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
I didn't even know that card existed. Great addition, definitely goes before the Howling Mine effects. I only run Mikokoro, Center of the Sea at the moment, but I've considered adding more.
It's a good thing we can easily hate on blue.
Sword of Fire and Ice
Hall of Gemstone
City of Solitude
Dosan the Falling Leaf
Gaea's Herald
Gaea's Revenge
Petrified Wood-Kin
Arashi, the Sky Asunder
Nature's Wrath
Homeward Path
Brooding Saurion
Elvish Piper
Quicksilver Amulet
Carpet of Flowers
Seedtime
Defense Grid
Krosan Grip
Choke
Tsunami
Insist
Also, the Eldrazi ETB triggers can't be countered, and you can keep drawing threats with Eye of Ugin.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
Legendary Eldrazi don't have ETB triggers and the triggers they do actually have can be countered with at least three different cards.
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
Pretty much this. If you have qualms eating land with strip mine every turn if need be, its difficult to always make the best play. Many people dislike the eldrazi as well. Oh Well.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
Oh how I love Strip Mining for someone for 3 lands per turn. I think I was able to do it for 4 with Oracle of Mul Daya on board in one game, but I never had both Oracle and Exploration on board at the same time to be able to hit someone for 5 (back when I used to run Exploration).
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
A guy picked on me one game, so the next game I ate all his land away, 4 at a time, and then smashed him in the face with a hasted Ulamog with infect just to get the point across.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
This is out of pure curiosity (although expanding my knowledge of more-or-less useless information is always good :)), but what 3 spells are those, exactly?
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
No need to be overly pedantic. I was phrasing it in a way that is easily-understood by most readers. Of course, it's not a true ETB trigger, and yes, there are ways to counter pretty much anything if you look for them (at the very least there's Time Stop). And I didn't specify the eldrazi as legendary because Artisan of Kozilek has a similar trigger.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
I think it's two things: (1) there's a ton of Azusa decklists floating about in the multiplayer subforum these days; and (2) I feel like a decklist thread has to hit a certain critical mass before people really pay attention to it and contribute to it. It's basically a matter of needing views/comments to get views/comments. Once a bit of discussion starts to take place, it usually kind of takes off exponentially. At least that's been my experience with most decklists. Threads like that for my Wydwen, the Biting Gale decklist will probably never really take off, because people only care to play her in 1v1.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
I obviously knew what you meant but decided to point out the difference anyway because it's quite important. If the big, scary Eldrazi had ETB triggers, they would be significantly worse in Azusa - one simple counterspell and your whole plan is ruined, you're tapped out and got nothing. Triggering on cast means that you're getting something out of the deal almost every time.
I know, but the simple "Eldrazi" includes all of them, even those with actual ETB triggers (Dread Drone, Emrakul's Hatcher, Kozilek's Predator and Nest Invader), hence my wording.
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
Fair enough. I guess non-Drone eldrazi or colorless eldrazi is the best way of putting it then.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
Also, I'm a little bit over this attitude towards Azusa. I can (and do) hand off my Azusa deck to someone who doesn't know it inside and out to let them play it for the night and watch them completely botch it, given that they don't know the synergies that the deck is built on.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
You say that, yet every Azusa deck is ramp into stupid fatty, explosion with Greater Good/Momentous Fall + recursion, etc. The problem with most mono-green generals is they play out the same. Azusa is not that dissimilar.
The "synergies" in Azusa deck are just interactions between staple cards for mono-green ramp that are incredibly ubiquitous at this point. Once someone becomes familiar with said cards, its blatantly obvious what is going on. Sure...if you grab the deck and you are just learning how to play MTG / aren't familiar with many cards outside of Standard you might not know how to play this deck-- but that goes with every eternal format deck.
Fair enough, but then the same goes for pretty much every EDH deck, and Azusa shouldn't be singled out as being "training wheels" mode.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
That seems dubious to me, considering that working towards optimizing my Azusa list has required more brainstorming and dialoguing with fellow players than arguably any other deck I've built (which has been a lot). Making sure you have carefully considered each and every card slot is of the utmost importance when your commander has the potential to be as explosive as Azusa is. Your decisions can either lead to her being mindblowingly amazing, or relatively mediocre.
Here's the thing. I'm about 80% Spike 20% Johnny, so the fact that Azusa allows me to ramp into any number of given fatties is largely irrelevant to me. The fact is that she's arguably the most competitive green commander. And that's really all that I care about. But thanks for coming in, ignoring the entirety of the OP, and spouting completely inane and irrelevant babble about how you personally dislike Azusa. I get the feeling I'm being trolled, and I can't believe I took the time to fall for it and respond.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Eh, some of us care about keeping the spirit and integrity of EDH alive, other's want to turn it into a 4-5 turn boring format like Standard and Modern. I, for one, want to retain at least one format that is enjoyable.