I typed this up for the "Why Red Sucks" thread, but it was closed before I was able to submit it. I figure it will be useful to some members of the community anyway, so I'm posting it here. Feel free to add to it, especially anything exotic or often overlooked that gives red options it usually doesn't have.
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This "red is weak" argument was more relevant a few years ago. Now it just sounds tired and silly. Hopefully this thread puts it to rest.
Goblin Matron and Imperial Recruiter are both very good tutors, on par with Trinket Mage. Matron grabs you Welder, Kiki-Jiki, and Siege-Gang Commander, and Recruiter grabs Welder, Kiki-Jiki, Magus of the Moon, Anger, and Solemn Simulacrum. This is pretty good already without running any extra cards to tutor for. If you want another Matron, Goblin Recruiter can stack your deck.
Gamble is one of the best tutors in the entire format, and is one of the only non-black ways to universally tutor.
You have reliable mass haste. Haste is AMAZING. In the Web of War and Urabrask the Hidden even give you nice bonuses so you can maintain the aggression.
Inferno Titan in mono-red, with all of the haste enablers and mana-doublers, is a win condition on its own. It comes down and pings for 1 six times to clear the way, then attacks for six plus a huge firebreathing boost. It's also great with Basilisk Collar, which can be found via Godo, Bandit Warlord or Gamble, or otherwise wheeled or looted for.
Sokenzan Spellblade is a mini-Inferno Titan. Drop it with haste after you play a wheel effect and attack an open opponent for a surprise knockout blow. If you have Godo out, it does it twice.
Kuldotha Phoenix is a nice recurring beater that's easy to get metalcraft for (red loves artifacts anyway) and gets really scary once you have a way to amp up the damage.
Eldrazi are very easy to cast with all of your mana. Artisan of Kozilek, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, and Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre are all amazing and give you creature recursion, strong card draw, and universal removal, three things red really wants. Annihilator is super scary when it is paired with haste, which you should almost always have. Eye of Ugin is a great source of utility, card advantage, and gives you a relentless stream of terrifying finishers.
Just to clarify one more point. Two of the best indications that a deck is powerful are abundant cards and abundant mana. We've already established that mono-red is both great at creating mana for itself as well as depriving opponents of mana. It is often accused of being bad at drawing cards, but consider this list, and then tell me that red is bad at this:
So what is weak about mono red exactly? What can't it do effectively?
UPDATE: A new red draw engine has come to my attention, courtesy of Gaka in his Norin primer. It involves using Goblin Recruiter to stack a Rummaging Goblin and then Squee, Goblin Nabob, so you gain +1 card advantage with each Rummaging Goblin activation. The best part is that the Goblin Recruiter can be found with Goblin Matron, Imperial Recruiter, Moggcatcher, or Gamble, so it's a very dependable engine to put into any mono red deck. It's also great because none of these cards are bad on their own. Of course, even if they kill the Rummaging Goblin, you still have Squee, who has plenty of other uses, such as fueling Skullclamp and Vicious Shadows.
The thing that really sets red apart from all the other colors is its ld. No other color has access to as much ld as red does and it is its most powerful tool. I really think the only reason mono red 'sucks' is because people want to be too nice to each other. I've had many people snicker at me for playing Kiki Jiki as my general....until they had no mana to fight me with and I had two hasting Balefire Dragons attacking each turn.
Seriously, the land hate is the most powerful ability that red has, why aren't more people playing it?
"Some of the other guys dared me to go out, but I knew it weren't no ordinary giant giga-blasting blaze of unending flames that would scorch the whole world."
—Norin the Wary
People are playing some land hate. Generally, just non-basic-land hate. Blood Moon was an example from the OP.
I was previously under the impression that mono-red was difficult to do with a limited budget because all the card draw was expensive, but I could easily afford some of the cards you mentioned there. If I already have Mind's Eye, Skullclamp and Charmbreaker Devils, and wanted to keep to a low cost, what cards would you suggest I get for a mono-red deck to give me gas? I notice Moggcatcher is cheap, but I don't think I have the goblins to go with it... I'm thinking Knollspine Dragon and Dragon Mage...
You beat me to it, Giodante. I was going to type up a positive-centered thread in order to keep the discussion going in a better fashion, but now I don't have to.
As I discussed in the thread I made earlier about the topic, a lot more people seem to be coming around on the LD bandwagon lately. Honestly, it's great to see people embrace one of red's key strengths; sooner or later, it could become necessary. In my playgroup, 90% of the people who use LD are intelligent about their timing, so when the board is wiped of lands, it's almost always to seal up the game. When that happens, it's acceptable, since it ends the game the same way any other combo deck or game-ending spell would. I don't do it personally, because even though almost every deck I own includes red, I'm a bit of an odd deckbuilder, and it doesn't play to my strengths. That being said, I'm perfectly fine with it, and I believe that other people should at least try to approach LD with an open mind.
Furthermore, green doesn't monopolize the ramp industry. Sure, any decent green deck with a ramp package could consistently get to turn 8 with 16+ mana, but that's not where I see the shenanigans happening. Big mana almost always comes from doublers, and almost all of those are artifacts. The green player can ramp all he/she wants, but mono-red can still drop artifact mana to keep up, then blow out the table in one go with a gauntlet of power.
If anyone wants to see red/white work competitively, even with minimal card draw/ramp, I've got a punisher decklist that my playgroup has been quite wary of lately.
So im pretty sure that red is better than white, but would you say it can be better than another color? Even with all the new toys red has been getting, a lot of my friends still say red is weak. My experience with red is that they can very dangerous if left alone, but if not they tend to fall apart. Or they can take out a player, but then die shortly after. It seems whenevr i play a sudden token army, the red guy plays insurrection and rofl stomps me only and not the otherplayers( usually).
I just built a slobad deck not long ago. It has a steal **** and kill artifacts theme. Just yestersay i had agame with my friend and killed with a 164 damage attack mostly using mycosynth lattice, lots o f lands, and hellkite igniter. I do think red can be good and interesting. Could you look at my slobad deck for improvements?
I typed this up for the "Why Red Sucks" thread, but it was closed before I was able to submit it. I figure it will be useful to some members of the community anyway, so I'm posting it here. Feel free to add to it, especially anything exotic or often overlooked that gives red options it usually doesn't have.
Well said. Personally, I've never played mono-R, but I love it as a support color (3/4 of my current decks utilize R, and I just took apart the single one that doesn't).
For me, one thing I love about red is that allows me to make very asymmetrical wrath effects. If you look at any Gisela primer, most builds revolve around preventing the damage to your own critters from Earthquake & Co. to clear everyone else's boards. You really can't do that as easily with Wrath of God or Damnationsans indestructibility.
On top of that, red provides some awesome support critters. I stuff Flametongue Kavu into about every deck that I can. Zealous Conscripts is stellar, and I'm very excited about the upcoming Mindclaw Shaman. If you're going the LD route, my go-to card of choice is Keldon Firebombers. He's a fantastic way to seal up a game with a gigantic Animar turning sideways.
I was previously under the impression that mono-red was difficult to do with a limited budget because all the card draw was expensive, but I could easily afford some of the cards you mentioned there. If I already have Mind's Eye, Skullclamp and Charmbreaker Devils, and wanted to keep to a low cost, what cards would you suggest I get for a mono-red deck to give me gas? I notice Moggcatcher is cheap, but I don't think I have the goblins to go with it... I'm thinking Knollspine Dragon and Dragon Mage...
I would suggest Reforge the Soul to you then. Sometimes it's five mana, other times it's two(which, for a draw7, is insane). For about $7-$10, you get Wheel of Fortune, which with the Dragon, gives you three different draw7s--four if you play Memory Jar too. That should be plenty because that is an awful lot of draw.
Ooh yeah. One more solid draw engine I never see mentioned is Mask of Memory Man, that card rocks.
Knollspine Dragon is pretty incredible too. I just used it last night to draw some 13 cards(had Balefire Dragon in hand, was like sure, I'll pitch him to draw 13).
The primary reason why R can be pricey is Diamond Valley(which can go in any deck, so I don't count it for this example) and Gauntlet of Might(which should be in any R deck).
Very well written, I wanted to start a similar thread but could not find the words to do it. I play red in most of my decks and I think it works very well. Most people only say red is bad because they cave in to the peer pressure around saying LD is "unfun" ("fun" being a topic done to death recently). I consider myself casual in general (I do not play competitive magic at all, prereleases being the only tournaments I enter) but I have no problem cycling Decree of Annihilation to let me win. Maybe I am an anomaly, maybe its the fact that most of the people in my group are not people I call friends but any strategy available to a color I am playing is an acceptable strategy to bring to the table.
In edh there are 2 kinds of decks. Decks that can archenemy the whole table( most blue decks) and decks that can achieve vicory by 'hiding' or not being the most threatening. I feel that red is the second type most of the time. Sure it can occasionally take on the whole table, usually the pretend to not be threatening until they lash out. The problem is when the table wants you dead there isnt a lot you can do. With my deck there were several times that i felt if someone killed my artifacts i'd be screwed. Maybe what im trying to say is that red isnt good against lots of distruption. Maybe im over thinking thing. Its still a really good color.
Yep they are great for mass killing, but also require setup. If those mana rocks/doublers are destroyed youll have a much harder time going off if the other players are smart. If people want a red deck dead that person will have a harder time surviving than with other colors. Thats why you generally need to play low key or kill everybody early.
Yep they are great for mass killing, but also require setup. If those mana rocks/doublers are destroyed youll have a much harder time going off if the other players are smart. If people want a red deck dead that person will have a harder time surviving than with other colors. Thats why you generally need to play low key or kill everybody early.
Your meta sounds quite different from mine. We have much more aggressive decks.
Thats why you generally need to play low key or kill everybody early.
This sounds...incredibly boring, tbh. Doing nothing but ramp and "don't touch me" cards. Meh. Live a little! Don't be afraid to dive in, get your hands dirty, and stir the pot! Too many people are concerned about "making enemies". So what. The object is to reduce everyone elses life total to zero...that doesn't happen by sitting back and cowering in fear!
This sounds...incredibly boring, tbh. Doing nothing but ramp and "don't touch me" cards. Meh. Live a little! Don't be afraid to dive in, get your hands dirty, and stir the pot! Too many people are concerned about "making enemies". So what. The object is to reduce everyone elses life total to zero...that doesn't happen by sitting back and cowering in fear!
We're R mages damn it...let's act like it!
Spoken like a true red mage. Attack everyone you can, whenever you can. Kill all creatures that are not yours. Blocking is for sissies.
Agree. We can and should apply this argument to the whole of EDH; color-pie is not something R&D really cares much about anymore and understanding a color in a vacuum is useful for learning the game initially, but should be heavily avoided once a player develops a basic understanding of what each color is particularly good at.
Saying things like "blue is op and red sucks" is so short-sighted, especially in an eternal format like EDH. It's not at all surprising, because many magic players are sheep who buy into mob mentalities about which colors are good, etc, when in reality that kind of conversation/thought process isn't constructive and is only a detriment to helping them become better players and severely hampers their ability to solve in-game problems at the deckbuilding phase.
In this context, it is unsurprising that players generally think aggressive decks suck in EDH. When a player knocks red for "being awful" in the context of what other colors are good at and everyone shuns mass LD, which is one of the core ways a deck can maintain an aggressive, lower curve in the format without being stomped, yeah, red as a color is going to be very unappealing and be largely relegated to being a support color for artifact destruction and damage-based wraths.
I realize there are other threads that talk about the accolades of LD, but it really cannot emphasized enough. There is also a sub-class of LD cards I call "land regulation" cards, like Keldon Firebombers, Destructive Force, and Wildfire, which are all criminally underplayed, plain and simple, and are easier to swallow if your meta really hates on mass LD. If you're in red, you should be using artifact mana, and if you're using artifact mana, you NEED to be using these cards. There is no reason BUG or RUG decks should be able to reliably combo off a Tooth and Nail into Kiki/mite or Avenger/Titan if there is a red player at the table.
And guess what? If your opponents start running artifact mana to offset your mass LD, you're in the perfect color to maintain the asymmetry of the effect.
People seriously need to wake up about red; old mentality is old.
What R really excels at is direct damage, sac outlets, and temporary steal effects (which used to be U).
As planeswalkers and artifacts are largely untouchable by B without outside color/less help, so are some things in R. We have trouble with big toughness critters (theoretically regeneration - but I've yet to see that actually be used), and indestructible critters. In this format, we see a lot of both so that's where things become difficult.
I also hate to say that there are some cards that you must include in R to be competitive. Kiki-Jiki (used to mimic U), Welder (used to mimicWU), Imperial Recruiter (and Gobo if you are willing to be pigeon holed into a gobo theme'd deck) (ala G creature tutor), Gamble (B tutor-esq), and Chaos Warp (wish we had more of these effects).
I understand the poster of the other thread. Red has trouble controlling the creatures on the board in this format, and even less to protect some of its most powerful lasting effects (Enchantments). We have some potent effects, but we lack against some very common things in a format that has huge creatures and indestructible creatures.
The tricky thing about mono-red in EDH is balancing all the different elements of red - like land destruction/disruption, direct damage, temporary theft, chaos effects, etc. - to create a cohesive and powerful deck. It's certainly not an easy thing to accomplish, but it's certainly rewarding when you can do it. The clear exemplar here is Gaka's Norin the Wary deck. :3
1. Let's be honest here.. W has Amrageddon, Ravages of War, Catastrophe, Cleansing, Cataclysm, Global Ruin, etc. I think the LD in white is better than red. Couple that with whites ability to pull lands out of the library, I give W the edge in the LD debate.
What R really excels at is direct damage, sac outlets, and temporary steal effects (which used to be U).
2. Red has trouble with big toughness critters.
3. I also hate to say that there are some cards that you must include in R to be competitive. Kiki-Jiki (used to mimic U), Welder (used to mimicWU), Imperial Recruiter (and Gobo* if you are willing to be pigeon holed into a gobo theme'd deck) (ala G creature tutor), Gamble (B tutor-esq), and Chaos Warp (wish we had more of these effects).
4. We have some potent effects, but we lack against some very common things in a format that has huge creatures and indestructible creatures.
Not that it has to be a proverbial pi**ing contest between two colors that do mass LD the best when paired together, but white hardly wins out. Black/red has the extremely under-rated Army Ants and Trench Wurm as well, though these usually works best in Jund builds. Both are godly cards, from my experience.
2. Aftershock, Grab the Reins, andChaos Warp would like to have a word with you. That, and the tons or earthquake effects and steal effects, as you imply.
3. So you're essentially saying red has staples? Cool story.
4. I mean, Insurrection is probably one of the best EDH cards in existence. Who cares how big a creature is when its yours?
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This "red is weak" argument was more relevant a few years ago. Now it just sounds tired and silly. Hopefully this thread puts it to rest.
Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, Ruination, and Price of Progress are all incredibly potent nonbasic hate that many decks dread, and are among the scariest cards in the format. Wake of Destruction deals with anyone the others don't.
Goblin Welder might just be the best one-drop in the format, is super disruptive, and can easily create multiple engines. With something like Memory Jar, Solemn Simulacrum, Mind's Eye, Skullclamp, Staff of Nin, or Ichor Wellspring, he can draw you lots of cards, which red is supposed to be bad at. He's also pretty fun with Sculpting Steel.
Goblin Matron and Imperial Recruiter are both very good tutors, on par with Trinket Mage. Matron grabs you Welder, Kiki-Jiki, and Siege-Gang Commander, and Recruiter grabs Welder, Kiki-Jiki, Magus of the Moon, Anger, and Solemn Simulacrum. This is pretty good already without running any extra cards to tutor for. If you want another Matron, Goblin Recruiter can stack your deck.
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is one of the best creatures and engines in the format. He goes infinite with Zealous Conscripts, and excellent card you will probably also want to run, and is broken in half with lots of other things you'll probably run, such as Siege-Gang Commander, Solemn Simulacrum, Inferno Titan, Wurmcoil Engine, Imperial Recruiter, Goblin Matron, Warstorm Surge, and Vicious Shadows.
Gamble is one of the best tutors in the entire format, and is one of the only non-black ways to universally tutor.
You have reliable mass haste. Haste is AMAZING. In the Web of War and Urabrask the Hidden even give you nice bonuses so you can maintain the aggression.
Godo, Bandit Warlord opens lots of options. He can grab Batterskull for defense, Quietus Spike if the way is clear or to ping with, Basilisk Collar for a pinger, Skullclamp for cards, or Lightning Greaves/Swiftfoot Boots for haste and protection. He also allows Taurean Mauler, Sokenzan Spellblade, and Ronin Cliffrider, all decent cards, to get an extra attack step.
Charmbreaker Devils is another incredible creature that hits like a truck and gives you awesome firepower.
Dwarven Miner and Dwarven Blastminer solve any problems you might be having with nonbasic lands.
Inferno Titan in mono-red, with all of the haste enablers and mana-doublers, is a win condition on its own. It comes down and pings for 1 six times to clear the way, then attacks for six plus a huge firebreathing boost. It's also great with Basilisk Collar, which can be found via Godo, Bandit Warlord or Gamble, or otherwise wheeled or looted for.
Sokenzan Spellblade is a mini-Inferno Titan. Drop it with haste after you play a wheel effect and attack an open opponent for a surprise knockout blow. If you have Godo out, it does it twice.
Malignus is another one that can kill out of nowhere. Márton Stromgald is another one. Tears of Rage is another. Shared Animosity is another. Firecat Blitz is another.
Add Insurrection and Warp World to the auto-win list.
Mogg Infestation is a great wipe spell with added use as a token generator. Blasphemous Act is also great. Flamebreak isn't bad either.
Wheel of Fortune, Reforge the Soul, and Knollspine Dragon are all amazing, not just at drawing cards, but at disrupting opponents. Combo is often tough to beat, and these plus Chandra Ablaze give you a better chance of winning.
Vicious Shadows is one of the deadliest enchantments in the entire game, and dropping it often means you win.
Heartless Hidetsugu can win you the game pretty easily.
Grip of Chaos is one of the most disruptive cards in the game.
Chaos Warp is clearly awesome.
Mana Geyser and Gauntlet of Might are welcome additions for producing extraordinary amounts of mana, along with the usual suspects.
With enough mana doublers, Furnace of Rath, or Hostility, cards like Earthquake, Rolling Earthquake, Molten Disaster, and Comet Storm can win the game for you on the spot. Remember that other than mono-green and Cabal Coffers, you are the best at producing huge amounts of mana.
Skullclamp is REALLY good in mono-red. You get Kher Keep, Squee, Goblin Nabob, Goblin Assault, Siege-Gang Commander, and a bunch of random cards like Goblin Matron, Imperial Recruiter, and Pilgrim's Eye to abuse it with, plus Goblin Welder and Trash for Treasure to get it back.
If blue is the strongest color, then surely having access to Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast, Price of Glory, Boil, and Boiling Seas must be nice.
Moggcatcher cheaply tutors utility creatures directly into play at instant speed. What's not to like?
Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle and Kher Keep are both great lands. Madblind Mountain and Spinerock Knoll aren't bad either.
Recoup and Past in Flames are both potentially very powerful.
The new Mindclaw Shaman looks very promising.
War Elemental can become very dangerous very quickly.
Tahngarth, Talruum Hero and Kumano, Master Yamabushi are both reasonably-costed, repeatable, targeted removal with decent bodies. Kumano can also prevent death triggers and graveyard tricks. Hateflayer, Jiwari, the Earth Aflame, and Living Inferno offer more of this, and Viashino Heretic does it to artifacts.
Some of your burn isn't that bad at all. Lightning Bolt, Incinerate, Flame Slash, Skred, Char, and Spitebellows can deal with lots of problematic creatures, including many of the most dangerous generals, really cheaply.
Spitebellows and Flametongue Kavu are both really nice creatures with removal stapled on.
A hasty Balefire Dragon or Lord of Shatterskull Pass can ruin an opponent.
Kuldotha Phoenix is a nice recurring beater that's easy to get metalcraft for (red loves artifacts anyway) and gets really scary once you have a way to amp up the damage.
You have amazing options for artifact destruction. For enchantments, you still have Chaos Warp, Warp World, All is Dust, Spine of Ish Sah, Karn Liberated, Oblivion Stone, Nevinyrral's Disk, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, and Steel Hellkite. The argument that they are artifacts, and therefore anyone can use them isn't that strong. You are one of the best mana-producers, so a lot of these colorless cards that are normally overcosted are easily affordable to you.
Goblin Bombardment and Shivan Harvest are two of the best sac outlets out there. Greater Gargadon isn't bad either.
Bogardan Hellkite is a really nice creature in any deck. Avatar of Slaughter, Stalking Vengeance, and Magmatic Force are all great as well.
Eldrazi are very easy to cast with all of your mana. Artisan of Kozilek, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, and Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre are all amazing and give you creature recursion, strong card draw, and universal removal, three things red really wants. Annihilator is super scary when it is paired with haste, which you should almost always have. Eye of Ugin is a great source of utility, card advantage, and gives you a relentless stream of terrifying finishers.
Things like Reverberate, Fork, Reiterate and Wild Riccochet can win on their own, and have other nice uses, such as countering counterspells.
You have tons of ways to get an extra combat step, which for red is almost as good as getting an extra turn, but cheaper. Gratuitous Violence, Furnace of Rath, Rage Reflection, and Avatar of Slaughter are also great for getting more damage out of your creatures.
If you really want to use it, mass land destruction rocks, and with all of your mana doublers and mana rocks, you'll recover easily.
I left out a lot of other really neat cards, like Smoke, Glacial Crevasses, Stingscourger, and Brand of Ill Omen. Obviously red can be versatile if you know the right cards.
Just to clarify one more point. Two of the best indications that a deck is powerful are abundant cards and abundant mana. We've already established that mono-red is both great at creating mana for itself as well as depriving opponents of mana. It is often accused of being bad at drawing cards, but consider this list, and then tell me that red is bad at this:
Wheel of Fortune
Reforge the Soul
Knollspine Dragon
Dragon Mage
Mind's Eye
Staff of Nin
Memory Jar
Illuminated Folio
Skullclamp
Goblin Welder
Moggcatcher
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Scrying Sheets
Eye of Ugin
Throw in tutors for some of these, like Gamble, Godo, Bandit Warlord, and Expedition Map, plus ways of reusing your wheel effects and other spells, such as Recoup and Past in Flames, and you have quite the card-drawing suite.
So what is weak about mono red exactly? What can't it do effectively?
UPDATE: A new red draw engine has come to my attention, courtesy of Gaka in his Norin primer. It involves using Goblin Recruiter to stack a Rummaging Goblin and then Squee, Goblin Nabob, so you gain +1 card advantage with each Rummaging Goblin activation. The best part is that the Goblin Recruiter can be found with Goblin Matron, Imperial Recruiter, Moggcatcher, or Gamble, so it's a very dependable engine to put into any mono red deck. It's also great because none of these cards are bad on their own. Of course, even if they kill the Rummaging Goblin, you still have Squee, who has plenty of other uses, such as fueling Skullclamp and Vicious Shadows.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
Seriously, the land hate is the most powerful ability that red has, why aren't more people playing it?
Cockatrice Username: seriph0
I was previously under the impression that mono-red was difficult to do with a limited budget because all the card draw was expensive, but I could easily afford some of the cards you mentioned there. If I already have Mind's Eye, Skullclamp and Charmbreaker Devils, and wanted to keep to a low cost, what cards would you suggest I get for a mono-red deck to give me gas? I notice Moggcatcher is cheap, but I don't think I have the goblins to go with it... I'm thinking Knollspine Dragon and Dragon Mage...
As I discussed in the thread I made earlier about the topic, a lot more people seem to be coming around on the LD bandwagon lately. Honestly, it's great to see people embrace one of red's key strengths; sooner or later, it could become necessary. In my playgroup, 90% of the people who use LD are intelligent about their timing, so when the board is wiped of lands, it's almost always to seal up the game. When that happens, it's acceptable, since it ends the game the same way any other combo deck or game-ending spell would. I don't do it personally, because even though almost every deck I own includes red, I'm a bit of an odd deckbuilder, and it doesn't play to my strengths. That being said, I'm perfectly fine with it, and I believe that other people should at least try to approach LD with an open mind.
Furthermore, green doesn't monopolize the ramp industry. Sure, any decent green deck with a ramp package could consistently get to turn 8 with 16+ mana, but that's not where I see the shenanigans happening. Big mana almost always comes from doublers, and almost all of those are artifacts. The green player can ramp all he/she wants, but mono-red can still drop artifact mana to keep up, then blow out the table in one go with a gauntlet of power.
If anyone wants to see red/white work competitively, even with minimal card draw/ramp, I've got a punisher decklist that my playgroup has been quite wary of lately.
I just built a slobad deck not long ago. It has a steal **** and kill artifacts theme. Just yestersay i had agame with my friend and killed with a 164 damage attack mostly using mycosynth lattice, lots o f lands, and hellkite igniter. I do think red can be good and interesting. Could you look at my slobad deck for improvements?
Nice summary of red.
My Saffi deck
Well said. Personally, I've never played mono-R, but I love it as a support color (3/4 of my current decks utilize R, and I just took apart the single one that doesn't).
For me, one thing I love about red is that allows me to make very asymmetrical wrath effects. If you look at any Gisela primer, most builds revolve around preventing the damage to your own critters from Earthquake & Co. to clear everyone else's boards. You really can't do that as easily with Wrath of God or Damnation sans indestructibility.
On top of that, red provides some awesome support critters. I stuff Flametongue Kavu into about every deck that I can. Zealous Conscripts is stellar, and I'm very excited about the upcoming Mindclaw Shaman. If you're going the LD route, my go-to card of choice is Keldon Firebombers. He's a fantastic way to seal up a game with a gigantic Animar turning sideways.
stuff
I would suggest Reforge the Soul to you then. Sometimes it's five mana, other times it's two(which, for a draw7, is insane). For about $7-$10, you get Wheel of Fortune, which with the Dragon, gives you three different draw7s--four if you play Memory Jar too. That should be plenty because that is an awful lot of draw.
Also, even just Skullclamp + Goblin Assault, Squee, Goblin Nabob & Kher Keep is more than enough to keep you in shape. It's worth noting they also combo fantastically with Shivan Harvest, which is a fantastic sac outlet too.
Ooh yeah. One more solid draw engine I never see mentioned is Mask of Memory Man, that card rocks.
Knollspine Dragon is pretty incredible too. I just used it last night to draw some 13 cards(had Balefire Dragon in hand, was like sure, I'll pitch him to draw 13).
The primary reason why R can be pricey is Diamond Valley(which can go in any deck, so I don't count it for this example) and Gauntlet of Might(which should be in any R deck).
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
amazingly epic sig courtesy of DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Planes.
My Saffi deck
earthquake, rolling thunder, blasphemous act, chain reaction, bonfire of the damned, are a great reason to focus on red.
My Saffi deck
Your meta sounds quite different from mine. We have much more aggressive decks.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
This sounds...incredibly boring, tbh. Doing nothing but ramp and "don't touch me" cards. Meh. Live a little! Don't be afraid to dive in, get your hands dirty, and stir the pot! Too many people are concerned about "making enemies". So what. The object is to reduce everyone elses life total to zero...that doesn't happen by sitting back and cowering in fear!
We're R mages damn it...let's act like it!
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
This worldview is the only correct way to view/play MTG in my mind.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Spoken like a true red mage. Attack everyone you can, whenever you can. Kill all creatures that are not yours. Blocking is for sissies.
:symr::symb: I hate your deck(Kaervek the Merciless)
Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
Kemba, Kostume
Ka...Oh god that's not a good alliteration.Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
Well, Bedlam is R after all...:D
Also, just read my location.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I thought the whole point of the game was to create stupid board states so the silly red one drop could kill someone.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
My Saffi deck
Saying things like "blue is op and red sucks" is so short-sighted, especially in an eternal format like EDH. It's not at all surprising, because many magic players are sheep who buy into mob mentalities about which colors are good, etc, when in reality that kind of conversation/thought process isn't constructive and is only a detriment to helping them become better players and severely hampers their ability to solve in-game problems at the deckbuilding phase.
In this context, it is unsurprising that players generally think aggressive decks suck in EDH. When a player knocks red for "being awful" in the context of what other colors are good at and everyone shuns mass LD, which is one of the core ways a deck can maintain an aggressive, lower curve in the format without being stomped, yeah, red as a color is going to be very unappealing and be largely relegated to being a support color for artifact destruction and damage-based wraths.
I realize there are other threads that talk about the accolades of LD, but it really cannot emphasized enough. There is also a sub-class of LD cards I call "land regulation" cards, like Keldon Firebombers, Destructive Force, and Wildfire, which are all criminally underplayed, plain and simple, and are easier to swallow if your meta really hates on mass LD. If you're in red, you should be using artifact mana, and if you're using artifact mana, you NEED to be using these cards. There is no reason BUG or RUG decks should be able to reliably combo off a Tooth and Nail into Kiki/mite or Avenger/Titan if there is a red player at the table.
And guess what? If your opponents start running artifact mana to offset your mass LD, you're in the perfect color to maintain the asymmetry of the effect.
People seriously need to wake up about red; old mentality is old.
Isperia, Supreme Judge: Control
Malfegor: Control
What R really excels at is direct damage, sac outlets, and temporary steal effects (which used to be U).
As planeswalkers and artifacts are largely untouchable by B without outside color/less help, so are some things in R. We have trouble with big toughness critters (theoretically regeneration - but I've yet to see that actually be used), and indestructible critters. In this format, we see a lot of both so that's where things become difficult.
I also hate to say that there are some cards that you must include in R to be competitive. Kiki-Jiki (used to mimic U), Welder (used to mimicWU), Imperial Recruiter (and Gobo if you are willing to be pigeon holed into a gobo theme'd deck) (ala G creature tutor), Gamble (B tutor-esq), and Chaos Warp (wish we had more of these effects).
I understand the poster of the other thread. Red has trouble controlling the creatures on the board in this format, and even less to protect some of its most powerful lasting effects (Enchantments). We have some potent effects, but we lack against some very common things in a format that has huge creatures and indestructible creatures.
The tricky thing about mono-red in EDH is balancing all the different elements of red - like land destruction/disruption, direct damage, temporary theft, chaos effects, etc. - to create a cohesive and powerful deck. It's certainly not an easy thing to accomplish, but it's certainly rewarding when you can do it. The clear exemplar here is Gaka's Norin the Wary deck. :3
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
1. Epicenter, (Destructive Force, Wildfire, Keldon Firebombers,) Devastation, Decree of Annihilation (largely uncounterable), Jokulhaups, Scorched Earth (particularly good in r/g builds), Boom // Bust, Ruination, Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, Wake of Destruction, various repeatable LD effects.
You were saying?
Not that it has to be a proverbial pi**ing contest between two colors that do mass LD the best when paired together, but white hardly wins out. Black/red has the extremely under-rated Army Ants and Trench Wurm as well, though these usually works best in Jund builds. Both are godly cards, from my experience.
2. Aftershock, Grab the Reins, andChaos Warp would like to have a word with you. That, and the tons or earthquake effects and steal effects, as you imply.
3. So you're essentially saying red has staples? Cool story.
4. I mean, Insurrection is probably one of the best EDH cards in existence. Who cares how big a creature is when its yours?
Isperia, Supreme Judge: Control
Malfegor: Control
You're half correct.