No one countered Omniscience because I waited until there was a good opportunity, everyone was infighting.
You're claiming Omniscience isn't that good. I'm giving real examples of why you're wrong. No one argued that dropping an Eldrazi after Decree of Annihilation wouldn't end the game. Don't twist this.
Well, then you played the game right, with respect to timing and politics, that's part of EDH. You waited for a good chance to drop a game ending threat, protected it and won, but that doesn't mean it deserves to be banned. It's a great enabler, assuming you can stick it, but there are plenty of cards that win games if you just play them at the right time. There are also a lot less ways to cheat it into play and mono-blue already has several infinite "answer me or win" cards.
Well, then you played the game right, with respect to timing and politics, that's part of EDH. You waited for a good chance to drop a game ending threat, protected it and won, but that doesn't mean it deserves to be banned. It's a great enabler, assuming you can stick it, but there are plenty of cards that win games if you just play them at the right time. There are also a lot less ways to cheat it into play and mono-blue already has several infinite "answer me or win" cards.
I agree, I don't think it's bannable. I just don't like people saying this card is flashy, win-more, not worth the cost, etc... especially when they're not even running it.
I agree, I don't think it's bannable. I just don't like people saying this card is flashy, win-more, not worth the cost, etc... especially when they're not even running it.
Exactely how I think about it
People saying it is weak shouldn't just randomly put it in their decks.
But it's not banworthy when we have stuff like Palinchron, Genesis Wave and Primal Surge.
In short, I don't think this card is bannable. My Edric deck is made to abuse Aluren to the point that it's a 4 mana Omniscience for the most part.
1. Omniscience does NOT make flashback free, the enchantment says you may cast card from you hand without paying for their mana cost.
2. This is a bias point, but I don't expect it to hang around on the table long in my groups, everyone in G or W has some pretty quick enchantment removal, and every green deck plays Krosan Grip.
But it's not banworthy when we have stuff like Palinchron, Genesis Wave and Primal Surge.
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Palinchron is a pain, but Genny wave isn't so much the problem as much as it is the recursion and copying and tripling of it (though it is a worse offender than Primal Surge) and Primal Surge requires so much building around it to be super effective that most of the time it's not worth it imo.
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Decks: WUG Jenara, Asura of War WR Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas WU Lavinia of the Tenth UR Mizzix of the Izmagnus
4 players: Grand Arbiter, Mono-Black goodstuff, Ghave, and myself.
Waited until a good opportunity, when Arbiter was mostly spent
Tutored Show and Tell EOT
Flashed back increasing ambition, getting Omniscience and Decree of Annihilation
played show and tell with my remaining mana, keeping two open for a countersquall
Played show and tell putting in omniscience (arbiter played a land), played jace the mind sculptor for free, it was countered due to arbiter putting in a land, I let that happen opting to save my counterspell just in case (if he happened to counter show and tell, I could have countered that, it was his only counter he could use at that time)
Played Consecrated Sphinx, played Time Spiral, drew 35, played out, used Timetwister, drew 35 more, Nicol Bolas, Cast Through Time, Bribery, Cruel Ultimatum, Jace The Mind Sculptor, Decree of Annihilation. Everyone scooped, and rightly so.
4 players: Grand Arbiter, Mono-Black goodstuff, Ghave, and myself.
Waited until a good opportunity, when Arbiter was mostly spent
Tutored Show and Tell EOT
Flashed back increasing ambition, getting Omniscience and Decree of Annihilation
played show and tell with my remaining mana, keeping two open for a countersquall
Played show and tell putting in omniscience (arbiter played a land), played jace the mind sculptor for free, it was countered due to arbiter putting in a land, I let that happen opting to save my counterspell just in case (if he happened to counter show and tell, I could have countered that, it was his only counter he could use at that time)
Played Consecrated Sphinx, played Time Spiral, drew 35, played out, used Timetwister, drew 35 more, Nicol Bolas, Cast Through Time, Bribery, Cruel Ultimatum, Jace The Mind Sculptor, Decree of Annihilation. Everyone scooped, and rightly so.
Omniscience.
Honestly, the problem here is Consecrated Sphinx + draw 7's. You could just as easily have played your ridiculous number of spells with Dream Halls or one of a thousand Palinchron infinite mana combos.
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Honestly, the problem here is Consecrated Sphinx + draw 7's. You could just as easily have played your ridiculous number of spells with Dream Halls or one of a thousand Palinchron infinite mana combos.
If I played Dream Halls, the effect spreads to everyone. Grand Arbiter had a full hand, I'm sure he had another counterspell ready.
It's going to draw a lot of discussion now and rightfully so, but I don't think it will be as gamebreaking as people expect. Probably will draw instant hate and I would certainly run it in my blue deck but it seems like people think this is the end-all-be-all for blue
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If I played Dream Halls, the effect spreads to everyone. Grand Arbiter had a full hand, I'm sure he had another counterspell ready.
Infinite combos are banned in my group.
Well then of course you would sing the praises of Omniscience, since it allows you to do what Infinite Combos do (for the most part), but at a higher initial casting cost.
You should try testing it out in a more cutthroat environment.
Just won again, 5 player game. Omniscience FTW. Insane card, everyone calling for ban over here.
Well then of course you would sing the praises of Omniscience, since it allows you to do what Infinite Combos do (for the most part), but at a higher initial casting cost.
I stopped playing infinite combos when I realized that making a EDH "vintage tendrils" deck wasn't hard. Infinite combos just aren't hard to execute, they're not fun and not interesting. Just throw in a few counterspells and you're set.
Just won again, 5 player game. Omniscience FTW. Insane card, everyone calling for ban over here.
I stopped playing infinite combos when I realized that making a EDH "vintage tendrils" deck wasn't hard. Infinite combos just aren't hard to execute, they're not fun and not interesting. Just throw in a few counterspells and you're set.
That doesn't really have anything to do with what I posted.
You're playing something that allows you to "go infinite" in an environment where traditional infinite is banned, and therefore people aren't prepared for it. Of course it's going to be good for you until the environment starts adjusting.
Just won again, 5 player game. Omniscience FTW. Insane card, everyone calling for ban over here.
Maybe you should post a decklist once.
And what the hell is the rest of the table doing?
It seems like your deck is all about blowing everything up and kicking ass with Planeswalkers. You don't need Omniscience to win.
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Palinchron is a pain, but Genny wave isn't so much the problem as much as it is the recursion and copying and tripling of it (though it is a worse offender than Primal Surge) and Primal Surge requires so much building around it to be super effective that most of the time it's not worth it imo.
Genesis Wave not a problem?
Reveal top 30 cards, play Akroma's Memorial and win.
That's what it usually does.
As far as I can remember, we never recurred or copied it.
Maybe it's just meta-dependant, like our yjtrr mono-G decks that don't even have to run tons of spells and had Primal Surge as an auto-include.
That doesn't really have anything to do with what I posted.
You're playing something that allows you to "go infinite" in an environment where traditional infinite is banned, and therefore people aren't prepared for it. Of course it's going to be good for you until the environment starts adjusting.
Some groups I play with online use infinite combos, and it functions well there, too. I don't think it should be banned because it's not hyper-competitive, but in anything less than the most extreme neckbeard environments you're used to, it's quite overpowered.
Maybe you should post a decklist once.
And what the hell is the rest of the table doing?
It seems like your deck is all about blowing everything up and kicking ass with Planeswalkers. You don't need Omniscience to win.
And how many games did you lose?
I'm 25-3.
Genesis Wave not a problem?
Reveal top 30 cards, play Akroma's Memorial and win.
That's what it usually does.
As far as I can remember, we never recurred or copied it.
Hmm, that's a 32 mana spent. And someone doesn't have a counterspell?
Well then of course you would sing the praises of Omniscience, since it allows you to do what Infinite Combos do (for the most part), but at a higher initial casting cost.
You should try testing it out in a more cutthroat environment.
Yeah, pretty much this. Much as I love the card, I do feel that Jinnobi is singing its praises a bit off key.
Jinnobi, realize that the reason the card seems so borked is because it is, essentially, an infinite mana combo (minus certain things casting a spell for free vs with infinite mana differ on), something your group does not allow. What you're able to do with Omniscience is essentially what any blue player does with Deadeye and Palinchron, for example. It doesn't surprise me your group is calling for a ban, it does something they clearly already tried to prevent.
I don't think the card is even remotely worth getting a ban, be it official or even in-house. It's a good card if you can get it out, as it does act as pseudo-infinite mana. However it is easy enough to remove and deal with, and there are other combos and cards that allow you the same privileges that are more ban-worthy (such as Deadeye+Palinchron, not that I think they actually deserve a ban either mind you).
Once again, I never said it should be banned. I said it shouldn't. Outside your neckbeard, "let's RNG race to see who has the best infinite combo instant win deck" it's incredible.
Once again, I never said it should be banned. I said it shouldn't. Outside your neckbeard, "let's RNG race to see who has the best infinite combo instant win deck" it's incredible.
I know, you said your group thinks it should be banned, I never said you were included in that, mayhaps I should have specified a bit more.
I've yet to get a game in since I added it to my deck, so I can't really say for sure how it will compare to any other combo I can pull off for infinite mana, but I play in a couple different groups, some much more competitive than others, will see how it goes.
Hmm, that's a 32 mana spent. And someone doesn't have a counterspell?
Not always, we don't have many blue-players.
In our regular group we have 6 blue decks.
3 don't play counters since they are very light on blue and the other 2 are mine.
It's usually easier to destroy the Memorial and then kill the dudes.
Or Knowledge Exploitation for an Insurrection and show the player what we think about Genesis Wave.
That's kind of the point, though. It doesn't do anything that you couldn't already do with an infinite mana combo. Again, I'm going to test the card out, but I just don't see it being all that great. I can already do what it does with an infinite combo, using cards that are in my deck for other purposes but happen to have ridiculous synergy when used together. If your group has banned infinite combos, then it stands to reason that you'd love this card. My group hasn't.
And as for your other comment, my meta is almost entirely blue. The people who show up every single week play Teferi/Jhoria (same guy, two different decks that he alternates between), Venser, Vorosh, Azami, and I play Thada Adel. The only non-blue decks that come somewhat frequently are an Omnath, a Mimeoplasm, and a R/B Goblin Combo deck. There are a few others who show up randomly who play things like Memnark, Malfegor, and a guy who switches between Thraximunder and a R/W Brion Stoutarm deck.
Our meta is very cuthroat, but that balances itself out over time. No one plays Time Stretch, for example, because nearly every deck has Knowledge Exploitation in it. If someone gets out of hand, they get ganged up on. That's how multiplayer magic goes. Politics, timing, etc.
I used to play Sakashima, until I realized that it was often a race to a certain mana threshold, with the person getting there first comboing out for the win. So, I switched to Thada Adel, because she ramps almost as fast as a green general. I stand by my statement that if you hit something ridiculous like 13 mana while playing blue, you should be able to win the game. It's just like how you waited for the right moment to play Omniscience, I'm not going to try to combo out if I think someone has a counterspell ready, I'm going to pick my moment.
Perhaps if I played in a meta like your's, lacking infinite combos, I might see things differently. But, I don't.
Not always, we don't have many blue-players.
In our regular group we have 6 blue decks.
3 don't play counters since they are very light on blue and the other 2 are mine.
Okay. So let me get this straight.
You play in a group practically devoid of blue, and half of those rare blue decks don't run counters?
And you're looking at me, implying that I don't know what I'm talking about because my group doesn't like infinite combos? At least we know what the best color is and how to use it.
A half decent blue deck can stop a combo deck in its tracks AND win simultaneously. Please, don't talk about 32 mana Genesis Waves. Your Boseju is getting Strip Mined, bounced, or your Genesis Wave is being redirected, Commandeered, or Time Stopped-- if one of us hasn't won already. If you have Boseju, that is.
Once again, I never said it should be banned. I said it shouldn't. Outside your neckbeard, "let's RNG race to see who has the best infinite combo instant win deck" it's incredible.
You seem to be calling people neckbeards now. Please stop. Such a silly insult. And yes, outside environments that encourage instant win combos, it is incredibly powerful, because it is also an instant win combo if played right, and the environment isn't prepared for it (like now, since it was released a couple of days ago).
What you're doing is akin to bringing a crossbow to a knifefight because guns were banned, and then saying it's overpowered.
Give it some time, let people adjust, and I'm willing to bet it will find a comfortable place in some decks as poor man's infinite win condition, but not as anything really serious.
Okay. So let me get this straight.
You play in a group practically devoid of blue, and half of those rare blue decks don't run counters?
And you're looking at me, implying that I don't know what I'm talking about because my group doesn't like infinite combos?
No? I'm saying there are easier things to pull off to win the game.
Therefor I also think Omniscience shouldn't be banned, but I admit it's a strong card.
You must be confusing me for someone else.
A half decent blue deck can stop a combo deck in its tracks AND win simultaneously. Please, don't talk about 32 mana Genesis Waves. Your Boseju is getting Strip Mined, bounced, or your Genesis Wave is being redirected, Commandeered, or Time Stopped-- if one of us hasn't won already. If you have Boseju, that is.
Redirecting Wave? Seems hard to do.
But you are losing me now, I have no idea what you are talking about.. Boseiju? It hardly sees play in our group and I am glad for it.
You seem to be calling people neckbeards now. Please stop. Such a silly insult. And yes, outside environments that encourage instant win combos, it is incredibly powerful, because it is also an instant win combo if played right, and the environment isn't prepared for it (like now, since it was released a couple of days ago).
What you're doing is akin to bringing a crossbow to a knifefight because guns were banned, and then saying it's overpowered.
Give it some time, let people adjust, and I'm willing to bet it will find a comfortable place in some decks as poor man's infinite win condition, but not as anything really serious.
The trend is to talk about a new card like it's bad. Wait a few months. Then if it's bad, claim you knew it all along. If it's good, you actually never said it was bad, in fact you were confident all along it would be an all-star.
I know the forum troll, neckbeard ways.
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Well, then you played the game right, with respect to timing and politics, that's part of EDH. You waited for a good chance to drop a game ending threat, protected it and won, but that doesn't mean it deserves to be banned. It's a great enabler, assuming you can stick it, but there are plenty of cards that win games if you just play them at the right time. There are also a lot less ways to cheat it into play and mono-blue already has several infinite "answer me or win" cards.
RGodo, Bandit WarlordR
GSeton, Krosan ProtectorG
BGJarad, Golgari Lich LordGB
I agree, I don't think it's bannable. I just don't like people saying this card is flashy, win-more, not worth the cost, etc... especially when they're not even running it.
Exactely how I think about it
People saying it is weak shouldn't just randomly put it in their decks.
But it's not banworthy when we have stuff like Palinchron, Genesis Wave and Primal Surge.
1. Omniscience does NOT make flashback free, the enchantment says you may cast card from you hand without paying for their mana cost.
2. This is a bias point, but I don't expect it to hang around on the table long in my groups, everyone in G or W has some pretty quick enchantment removal, and every green deck plays Krosan Grip.
I thought I would have more points but nope.
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Palinchron is a pain, but Genny wave isn't so much the problem as much as it is the recursion and copying and tripling of it (though it is a worse offender than Primal Surge) and Primal Surge requires so much building around it to be super effective that most of the time it's not worth it imo.
Decks:
WUG Jenara, Asura of War
WR Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas
WU Lavinia of the Tenth
UR Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Decks:
WUG Jenara, Asura of War
WR Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas
WU Lavinia of the Tenth
UR Mizzix of the Izmagnus
4 players: Grand Arbiter, Mono-Black goodstuff, Ghave, and myself.
Waited until a good opportunity, when Arbiter was mostly spent
Tutored Show and Tell EOT
Flashed back increasing ambition, getting Omniscience and Decree of Annihilation
played show and tell with my remaining mana, keeping two open for a countersquall
Played show and tell putting in omniscience (arbiter played a land), played jace the mind sculptor for free, it was countered due to arbiter putting in a land, I let that happen opting to save my counterspell just in case (if he happened to counter show and tell, I could have countered that, it was his only counter he could use at that time)
Played Consecrated Sphinx, played Time Spiral, drew 35, played out, used Timetwister, drew 35 more, Nicol Bolas, Cast Through Time, Bribery, Cruel Ultimatum, Jace The Mind Sculptor, Decree of Annihilation. Everyone scooped, and rightly so.
Omniscience.
Honestly, the problem here is Consecrated Sphinx + draw 7's. You could just as easily have played your ridiculous number of spells with Dream Halls or one of a thousand Palinchron infinite mana combos.
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If I played Dream Halls, the effect spreads to everyone. Grand Arbiter had a full hand, I'm sure he had another counterspell ready.
Infinite combos are banned in my group.
:symb:Seizan, Perverter of Truth:symb:
:symu:Kami of the Crescent Moon:symu:
:symr:Tahngarth, Talruum Hero:symr:
:symu::symg:Prime Speaker Zegana:symu::symg:
:symu::symr:Melek, Izzet Paragon:symu::symr:
Well then of course you would sing the praises of Omniscience, since it allows you to do what Infinite Combos do (for the most part), but at a higher initial casting cost.
You should try testing it out in a more cutthroat environment.
I stopped playing infinite combos when I realized that making a EDH "vintage tendrils" deck wasn't hard. Infinite combos just aren't hard to execute, they're not fun and not interesting. Just throw in a few counterspells and you're set.
That doesn't really have anything to do with what I posted.
You're playing something that allows you to "go infinite" in an environment where traditional infinite is banned, and therefore people aren't prepared for it. Of course it's going to be good for you until the environment starts adjusting.
Maybe you should post a decklist once.
And what the hell is the rest of the table doing?
It seems like your deck is all about blowing everything up and kicking ass with Planeswalkers. You don't need Omniscience to win.
And how many games did you lose?
Genesis Wave not a problem?
Reveal top 30 cards, play Akroma's Memorial and win.
That's what it usually does.
As far as I can remember, we never recurred or copied it.
Maybe it's just meta-dependant, like our yjtrr mono-G decks that don't even have to run tons of spells and had Primal Surge as an auto-include.
Some groups I play with online use infinite combos, and it functions well there, too. I don't think it should be banned because it's not hyper-competitive, but in anything less than the most extreme neckbeard environments you're used to, it's quite overpowered.
I'm 25-3.
Hmm, that's a 32 mana spent. And someone doesn't have a counterspell?
Yeah, pretty much this. Much as I love the card, I do feel that Jinnobi is singing its praises a bit off key.
Jinnobi, realize that the reason the card seems so borked is because it is, essentially, an infinite mana combo (minus certain things casting a spell for free vs with infinite mana differ on), something your group does not allow. What you're able to do with Omniscience is essentially what any blue player does with Deadeye and Palinchron, for example. It doesn't surprise me your group is calling for a ban, it does something they clearly already tried to prevent.
I don't think the card is even remotely worth getting a ban, be it official or even in-house. It's a good card if you can get it out, as it does act as pseudo-infinite mana. However it is easy enough to remove and deal with, and there are other combos and cards that allow you the same privileges that are more ban-worthy (such as Deadeye+Palinchron, not that I think they actually deserve a ban either mind you).
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
-Retired Decks-
UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
I know, you said your group thinks it should be banned, I never said you were included in that, mayhaps I should have specified a bit more.
I've yet to get a game in since I added it to my deck, so I can't really say for sure how it will compare to any other combo I can pull off for infinite mana, but I play in a couple different groups, some much more competitive than others, will see how it goes.
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
-Retired Decks-
UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Not always, we don't have many blue-players.
In our regular group we have 6 blue decks.
3 don't play counters since they are very light on blue and the other 2 are mine.
It's usually easier to destroy the Memorial and then kill the dudes.
Or Knowledge Exploitation for an Insurrection and show the player what we think about Genesis Wave.
But the same question could be asked to you.
And as for your other comment, my meta is almost entirely blue. The people who show up every single week play Teferi/Jhoria (same guy, two different decks that he alternates between), Venser, Vorosh, Azami, and I play Thada Adel. The only non-blue decks that come somewhat frequently are an Omnath, a Mimeoplasm, and a R/B Goblin Combo deck. There are a few others who show up randomly who play things like Memnark, Malfegor, and a guy who switches between Thraximunder and a R/W Brion Stoutarm deck.
Our meta is very cuthroat, but that balances itself out over time. No one plays Time Stretch, for example, because nearly every deck has Knowledge Exploitation in it. If someone gets out of hand, they get ganged up on. That's how multiplayer magic goes. Politics, timing, etc.
I used to play Sakashima, until I realized that it was often a race to a certain mana threshold, with the person getting there first comboing out for the win. So, I switched to Thada Adel, because she ramps almost as fast as a green general. I stand by my statement that if you hit something ridiculous like 13 mana while playing blue, you should be able to win the game. It's just like how you waited for the right moment to play Omniscience, I'm not going to try to combo out if I think someone has a counterspell ready, I'm going to pick my moment.
Perhaps if I played in a meta like your's, lacking infinite combos, I might see things differently. But, I don't.
Okay. So let me get this straight.
You play in a group practically devoid of blue, and half of those rare blue decks don't run counters?
And you're looking at me, implying that I don't know what I'm talking about because my group doesn't like infinite combos? At least we know what the best color is and how to use it.
A half decent blue deck can stop a combo deck in its tracks AND win simultaneously. Please, don't talk about 32 mana Genesis Waves. Your Boseju is getting Strip Mined, bounced, or your Genesis Wave is being redirected, Commandeered, or Time Stopped-- if one of us hasn't won already. If you have Boseju, that is.
You seem to be calling people neckbeards now. Please stop. Such a silly insult. And yes, outside environments that encourage instant win combos, it is incredibly powerful, because it is also an instant win combo if played right, and the environment isn't prepared for it (like now, since it was released a couple of days ago).
What you're doing is akin to bringing a crossbow to a knifefight because guns were banned, and then saying it's overpowered.
Give it some time, let people adjust, and I'm willing to bet it will find a comfortable place in some decks as poor man's infinite win condition, but not as anything really serious.
No? I'm saying there are easier things to pull off to win the game.
Therefor I also think Omniscience shouldn't be banned, but I admit it's a strong card.
You must be confusing me for someone else.
Redirecting Wave? Seems hard to do.
But you are losing me now, I have no idea what you are talking about.. Boseiju? It hardly sees play in our group and I am glad for it.
The trend is to talk about a new card like it's bad. Wait a few months. Then if it's bad, claim you knew it all along. If it's good, you actually never said it was bad, in fact you were confident all along it would be an all-star.
I know the forum troll, neckbeard ways.