But generals do get banned when they're sufficiently degenerate. Black Myojin would probably be banned if he worked the way he was designed to work.
For the record, my current problem with the black Myojin is precisely that I've never seen someone play him and then win; I've only seen him played to stop another player from winning, which never works, but also ruins MY chances of taking down the winner with a card that could actually stop him.
My speculative problem is that black Myojin decks will be designed to dump everyone else's hand around turn five or six, and that isn't something this format needs. I haven't even seen the red Myojin played, but I'm betting it's not any better, and not something I'd want to have to play around every single game.
Rules you can almost always ignore are a design flaw. See also: mana burn.
I don't mind the idea as a house rule, but that's really where it ought to stay, because the logic used to justify playing something the way it was designed to work can be applied to, let's say, every rare from Kamigawa Block. Or Sorin Markov. The cards should do what they say.
1) Because I haven't gotten there yet and there is one already in progress. I actually voted against it, but I would now (having been through this argument) change my vote. And about other people not liking it: that's why I'm trying to change this. I can't put a poll on this thread yet since we don't have a fully-optimized version of the change so any votes would be rendered irrelevant with each revision, until then gauging full interest is impossible.
2) Ok, so test with him. I can't because I don't have the time. You have no evidence how prominent this card will be as a general since the change is not universal yet. If he gets "fixed" then immediately banned: so be it. But I doubt it.
3) That's your problem with 1 card and he would function in a different role as a general since the new plan is: drop him fast then beat down with him. The win should come quickly, if not through outright concession then from the speed you claim he has.
4) if you don't want to play around it every single game, why don't you, I don't know? MAKE A HOUSE RULE BANNING IT? Seems easier to let everyone have a chance playing a commander than forcing them to avoid ones because of a GLITCH.
5) no it can't. they aren't creatures. they aren't the commander of an army of 99 other things. Umezawa's Jitte cannot give orders to me. It's not alive. That was the flavor of the format from the get-go.
But generals do get banned when they're sufficiently degenerate. Black Myojin would probably be banned if he worked the way he was designed to work.
For the record, my current problem with the black Myojin is precisely that I've never seen someone play him and then win; I've only seen him played to stop another player from winning, which never works, but also ruins MY chances of taking down the winner with a card that could actually stop him.
My speculative problem is that black Myojin decks will be designed to dump everyone else's hand around turn five or six, and that isn't something this format needs. I haven't even seen the red Myojin played, but I'm betting it's not any better, and not something I'd want to have to play around every single game.
I think you're overvaluing the card. There are more effective ways to cause people to dump their hands, and faster strategies than using Myojin of Night's Reach as your general. I don't see the card as bannable, it will certainly be a good deck and a high quality general, but I don't see it as degenerate.
I've updated the original post. Please read and help me see where I've gone wrong. I took a less intrusive, more direct approach to the wording, but I don't know if I can word it the way I have.
Naturally, opinions on Myojin of Night's Reach vary. I personally don't like having to play blue just to keep from getting panic-bombed by a player who ran out of ideas.
I think people are undervaluing the power of the commander slot. It's not an insurmountable advantage, but neither is taking an extra turn for two mana, and we still don't allow that.
4) if you don't want to play around it every single game, why don't you, I don't know? MAKE A HOUSE RULE BANNING IT? Seems easier to let everyone have a chance playing a commander than forcing them to avoid ones because of a GLITCH.
No need to shout, friend. Why don't you make a house rule allowing it? I already have to apply social pressure to keep obnoxious stuff like Mind Over Matter combo out of my metagame, I really don't want to have another thing to add to my list.
I certainly don't consider it a glitch. Needing to be cast from your hand isn't just about blocking reanimation - that's what Eldrazi/Incarnation shuffle abilities are for. It also lets people not in blue deal with your threat by forcing you to discard it.
5) no it can't. they aren't creatures. they aren't the commander of an army of 99 other things. Umezawa's Jitte cannot give orders to me. It's not alive. That was the flavor of the format from the get-go.
That was your interpretation of the flavor of the format from the get-go, although I suspect you mean your personal get-go rather than the format's origins. Equally valid interpretations of the original setup could be 'Elder Dragon Legends only' or 'any Legendary permanent'. Or 'any card that is Legendary when it flips/transforms'.
Meanwhile, Wizards is certainly aware of the EDH rules and can dance around them just fine for future cards; notice Chalice of Life's transform condition as compared to Serra Ascendant.
FAKE EDIT: I still hate this idea, but I like your new wording. 'As though' is a lot better than 'treated as'. I would make this change though: 'for each time it previously left the command zone.' I can't think of any card-in-hand activated abilities that don't discard the card except Forecast, which has never been printed on a legendary creature; was one mentioned earlier in the thread? You probably need another clause about how an ability that discards as a cost moves the card to the graveyard, since 'discard' is defined as 'hand to yard' by the comprehensive rules. Maybe have it go to your hand and get discarded from there?
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Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
I disagree with the activated ability thing. It feels clunky and unintuitive to me. However, I agree with letting commanders count as being cast from your hand. Myojins are GREAT as commanders. While I understand why some groups would find Myojin of Night's Reach annoying, at 8 mana, it is gives opponents a fair chance to empty most of their hands before it hits, not to mention anyone playing blue sees it coming from a mile away and are more likely to hold on to that Trickbind/Voidslime/Counterspell to deal with it.
Edit: Important note: pushing only for the CAST rule is actually more likely to be noticed because it's a much SMALLER change and seems less intimidating while also addressing a large number of the generals in questions.
I'm a big fan of this; I wouldn't likely play any of the generals affected by this (Korlash doesn't count because I already play him), but it just seems like a rule that should be there. I don't know about the exact wording, but it looks alright to me.
This change isn't just for a couple corner cases right now either. It's for every other general in the future with a clause that counts casting from the hand. I want to make sure that if R+D doesn't go through adding errata to every card like this, then we can still play with them as they were intended.
Since Wizards has official commander products, and will likely print more in the future, you can also safely assume that for every legendary printed in the future (even ones not specifically for commander) they will consider the impact of it on the format. If it has a clause about being played from your hand then they probably didn't want it as a commander.
Let's try this. Lightning Greaves (or Swiftfoot Boots) on the board. Mid-game. Damnation (or one of the many other black/artifact wrath effects). Cast Phage. Equip Greaves. One player just lost.
Can you tell me any other general that can insta-kill someone with 40 life with NO other help other than a Greaves? That's why this potential rule change is too easily broken. Anyone playing Phage would find this combo extremely easy to pull off.
I'd argue that in some ways Blightsteel Colossus is easier to abuse, and easier to abuse earlier, than any commander because it is an artifact.
You're forgetting that Phage will be a known threat, everybody sitting down at that game will see Phage as the general and know they need to play around it.
Let's try this. Lightning Greaves (or Swiftfoot Boots) on the board. Mid-game. Damnation (or one of the many other black/artifact wrath effects). Cast Phage. Equip Greaves. One player just lost.
Can you tell me any other general that can insta-kill someone with 40 life with NO other help other than a Greaves? That's why this potential rule change is too easily broken. Anyone playing Phage would find this combo extremely easy to pull off.
A, there was help. You started that play off with Damnation. B, how is this any better than tutoring for Phage? There are enough tutors available in black that you should be able to put that turn together easily, and people won't have the benefit of seeing her in the command zone first. C, your terrifying example cost 11 mana, including BBBBB, and took 3 cards. There are plenty of general based combos that can go off with much less support then that.
I'm still not a fan of this idea, as it adds complexity to the rules for a very small gain, but the people arguing against it are doing a much better job of swaying me towards it than the people arguing for it.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
Wouldn't this defeat the point of the Commander tax? Even if you can only play it at sorcery speed, you're essentially allowing players to split payments into paying taxes during one turn and paying the actual costs during the other turns. If Commander Omnath was killed when you had 3 mana sources, you shouldn't be able to replay Omnath with just 3 mana sources the next turn (i.e. paying 2 during one turn and 2G when playing Omnath).
Pay 2 for each commander emblem: Split second. Put your commander from command zone to you hand. You gain an commander emblem.
So you can now play/cycling/channel/suspend/whatever you like legally.
Edit:
About night reach and phage: Hmm I am not worrying about these. We already hv a lot of broken commanders, why not add two to the grand melee?
Funny case: If I hv only fow in my hand and 2 colorless mana, I can get my blue commander from command zone and pitch it to fow...
and for that exact reason I don't like this. It functionally changes the way the command zone works as opposed to adding to it. Keep it coming though, these are all helpful to have down on record.
Also side note: when Weebo and Weebos post like that in line with each other it makes my head spin.
I kind of like that the General is cast from the General Zone.
One things for sure you can't have the general become part of your hand... or else you open up a ton of effects that can put cards into play for cheap... and other effects that cards in your hand are relevant for... basically being given a free card is bad... Blue Commander always being able to fuel FoW, etc....
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"Heterological" is heterological if and only if "heterological" is autological
[Legacy]
ANT
Imperial Painter
I have two arguments against the specific change mentioned in the OP:
1. I think the benefit granted by this change does not outweigh the added complexity. Herp derp.
2. Changing this rule would instantly increase the power level of decks built around these generals while doing nothing to change the effectiveness of others. Part of the fun of commander is building a deck around your general and all of these generals can already be played. A friend of mine has spent a lot of time and effort making a Phage the Untouchable deck that is viable and fun to play. All of the generals listed have restrictions written on them because they also have very powerful other abilities. There are already plenty cards with effects that can stifle Phage’s ETB ability or bounce a Myojin/Ninja/card with grandeur printed on it back to your hand.
I propose a different solution to make all these generals more playable and potentially benefit all other decks/add a number of play styles without making others ineffective or broken.
Instead of changing the rule about casting your general from the command zone, add a new rule:
“You may pay your generals’s casting cost plus commander tax to move that card from the command zone to your hand. Play this effect only during one of your main phases.”
This has a number of other advantages:
1. It gives you yet another way to put your general into your hand where you may want it.
2. It can be done within the confines of the rules.
3. It is easy to understand.
The second line could be changed to say several things to balance the effect. For example:
“Play this ability only any time you could play an Instant.”
“Play this ability only any time you could cast your Commander.”
“Play this ability only any time you could play a Sorcery.”
After some thought, I have come to the conclusion that Haakon must be abandoned. Any rules change that would allow you to discard Haakon to Stinkweed Imp would also allow you to do the same with, say, Sharuum. This is too much of a change to the way the game is played in my opinion and is the sort of things we should avoid when thinking up new rules.
With that said, here is a rules change that should allow everything else:
You may cast your commander and activate abilities of your commander from the command zone with the additional cost of "move this card to your hand".
What I'm doing is making the part where it goes to your hand a part of the cost. No priority is given, you can only do this if you can pay all the costs, and the clause where you can activate abilities from the command zone is more or less the exact same way we are able to cast the commander in the first place.
Casting Phage for a second time would look like this:
Move this card to your hand, 2, 3BBBB
Using Arashi, the Sky Sunder's abilitiy would look like this:
Move this card to your hand, XGG, Discard Arashi: Arashi deals X damage to each creature with flying.
Some small tweaking might have to be done to allow for Ith, since Suspend is a special action that doesn't follow the standard activation cost: ability effect template, but this is the cleanest method I can think of.
I like this change, it allow some fun general able to play.
If I read correctly, the general is not in your hand and it only count as play from hand if play from general zone. That make card like Flask and hand destruction no effect with this change, which I think it good.
I have two arguments against the specific change mentioned in the OP:
1. I think the benefit granted by this change does not outweigh the added complexity. Herp derp.
2. Changing this rule would instantly increase the power level of decks built around these generals while doing nothing to change the effectiveness of others. Part of the fun of commander is building a deck around your general and all of these generals can already be played. A friend of mine has spent a lot of time and effort making a Phage the Untouchable deck that is viable and fun to play. All of the generals listed have restrictions written on them because they also have very powerful other abilities. There are already plenty cards with effects that can stifle Phage’s ETB ability or bounce a Myojin/Ninja/card with grandeur printed on it back to your hand.
I propose a different solution to make all these generals more playable and potentially benefit all other decks/add a number of play styles without making others ineffective or broken.
Instead of changing the rule about casting your general from the command zone, add a new rule:
“You may pay your generals’s casting cost plus commander tax to move that card from the command zone to your hand. Play this effect only during one of your main phases.”
This has a number of other advantages:
1. It gives you yet another way to put your general into your hand where you may want it.
2. It can be done within the confines of the rules.
3. It is easy to understand.
The second line could be changed to say several things to balance the effect. For example:
“Play this ability only any time you could play an Instant.”
“Play this ability only any time you could cast your Commander.”
“Play this ability only any time you could play a Sorcery.”
Thoughts?
The problem with this is take the simple example of the first use of Isamaru from the command zone. I can basically pay W to move it to my hand at no other benefit. This just seems so wrong. Again, it adds a drawing functionality to the command zone that shouldnt be there. Say I have Vedalken Orrery in play and an opponent controls a Bottomless Pit, I have one card in hand and Isamaru is in the command zone. During my upkeep I can respond to the Pit trigger by "flashing" my commander into my hand and adding another potential card to the random selection, thus possibly saving my wrath of god or whatever? If this is really the case in this situation (which I'm not sure it is I'm just suggesting for now) this seems like it makes the command zone a much more broken resource than the sort of out-of-game commander pocket it is now.
I love your wording and almost fully agree with it... until I suddenly find that I can activate kamahl from command zone for free.
basically this. the reason I have mine worded the way I do is because it avoids including activated abilities like Visara, and Saffi who can sac from the command zone this way. Very annoying.
Put your commander into your hand from command zone, then cast it or activate one of it's abilities once, with additional cost 2 for each commander emblem you own: You gain a commander emblem, then return your commander to command zone if it is in your hand. This ability does not use the stack.
Work well in:
Karador/cost reduction check: successfully reduced
Flash commander check: timing restrict to the card itself
Bounced-to-hand commander check: not affected
Ith/Arashi/Inkeye check: ability successfully played
Haakon check: prohibited
But something unexpected:
Onna/Geth/Chainer/Kuro check: Can be play as one-shot
Patron of the Moon: Broken. Super-exploration?
Put your commander into your hand from command zone, then cast it or activate one of it's abilities that require discard or exile itself from hand, with additional cost 2 for each commander emblem you own: You gain a commander emblem. This ability does not use the stack.
But something unexpected:
Onna/Geth/Chainer/Kuro check: Can be play as one-shot
Patron of the Moon: Broken. Super-exploration?
That's an ability that can only be activated while Patron. There are VERY few abilities of any cards that can be used outside of the battlefield, and even fewer for generals.
The big thing is, we don't want to create any situation in which people can opt to move their commander to their hand, and pass priority before discarding it or casting it. They can't have the option to split costs, or move the commander over for a discard effect.
While your commander is in the command zone, you may cast it or activate abilities as though it where in your hand. If you do you gain a commander emblem.
At any time you could cast your commander, you may pay it's total cost to move it to your hand. If you do, cast it without paying it's mana cost if able. Otherwise, discard your commander. You gain a commander emblem.
Put your commander into your hand from command zone, then cast it or activate one of it's abilities that require discard or exile itself from hand, with additional cost 2 for each commander emblem you own: You gain a commander emblem. This ability does not use the stack.
Do it as a cost rather than a effect:
Add the commander to hand is a COST. Casting it/activate it(with tax) is also a COST. Accroding to CR117.3. "A player can't pay a cost unless he or she has the necessary resources to pay it fully." If you choose to play this ability, you start paying the cost: moving the card to hand AND cast/activate it. After move it to your hand, if you find yourself unable to cast/activate it for whatever reason, i.e. this cost can't be paid, the whole action is illegal and must be rewinded, the commander goes back to command zone and nothing happens. Game status, if affected, get rewinded too. There is no way to discard it to a spellshaper, nor pitch it to force of will.
Doing it this way avoid a lot of "if you do" "if you don't" "until your next pass" checks. Plus put it under formal/suitable handling.
Abilility restriction "abilities that require discard or exile itself from hand":
This is to make sure you commander will not sit in your hand after this ability is solved. Discard(Channel:Arashi, Cycling:Sliver queen/lord with Homing Sliver in play), Exile from hand(Suspend:Ith) are current abilities fitting this limit.
Let's try this. Lightning Greaves (or Swiftfoot Boots) on the board. Mid-game. Damnation (or one of the many other black/artifact wrath effects). Cast Phage. Equip Greaves. One player just lost.
Can you tell me any other general that can insta-kill someone with 40 life with NO other help other than a Greaves? That's why this potential rule change is too easily broken. Anyone playing Phage would find this combo extremely easy to pull off.
The Mimeoplasm can very frequently one-shot someone. Sub Lightning Greaves for Fires of Yavimaya, and Damnation for Finest Hour, and Progenitus can one-shot someone as well. (Technically it's two-shot, but Finest Hour is giving you two attacks in the same turn so it might as well be one-shot.) Scion of the Ur-Dragon clones Moltensteel Dragon, Phyrexianbreathes, and then clones Skithiryx, and one-shots someone. Sub Lightning Greaves and Damnation for any 2-card infinite mana combo, and Oona exiles everyone's deck, while Memnarch steals everyone's permanents. Sub Damnation for Furnace of Rath (or similar), and Heartless Hidetsugu can not only eliminate a player sitting at 40 life, he can eliminate everyone sitting at 40 life.
Pay 2 for each commander emblem: Split second. Put your commander from command zone to you hand. You gain an commander emblem.
It is better to make it a special action than to be an ability with split second. Special actions are things like morph or playing a land; they can't be responded to and don't use the stack.
You may cast your commander and activate abilities of your commander from the command zone with the additional cost of "move this card to your hand".
What I'm doing is making the part where it goes to your hand a part of the cost. No priority is given, you can only do this if you can pay all the costs, and the clause where you can activate abilities from the command zone is more or less the exact same way we are able to cast the commander in the first place.
Casting Phage for a second time would look like this:
Move this card to your hand, 2, 3BBBB
Using Arashi, the Sky Sunder's abilitiy would look like this:
Move this card to your hand, XGG, Discard Arashi: Arashi deals X damage to each creature with flying.
This doesn't work. Costs may be paid in any order, so moving the general to your hand can't be part of the cost. It needs to be a separate action, or part of the effect of an action.
Put your commander into your hand from command zone, then cast it or activate one of it's abilities that require discard or exile itself from hand, with additional cost 2 for each commander emblem you own: You gain a commander emblem. This ability does not use the stack.
Do it as a cost rather than a effect:
Add the commander to hand is a COST. Casting it/activate it(with tax) is also a COST. Accroding to CR117.3. "A player can't pay a cost unless he or she has the necessary resources to pay it fully." If you choose to play this ability, you start paying the cost: moving the card to hand AND cast/activate it. After move it to your hand, if you find yourself unable to cast/activate it for whatever reason, i.e. this cost can't be paid, the whole action is illegal and must be rewinded, the commander goes back to command zone and nothing happens. Game status, if affected, get rewinded too. There is no way to discard it to a spellshaper, nor pitch it to force of will.
Doing it this way avoid a lot of "if you do" "if you don't" "until your next pass" checks. Plus put it under formal/suitable handling.
Again, putting the general in the hand as a cost doesn't work. An "if you do/don't" wording is perfectly clear, and more importantly, it works within the rules.
What about this: Any time you could cast your general, you may pay its mana cost, plus for each time you've returned your general to your Command zone this game, and move your general from your Command zone to your hand (this is a special action and does not use the stack). Then, you may cast your general without paying its mana cost. Triggered abilities may not exile your general from the stack when cast this way.
This does a few things:
1) It gets everyone to pay the total cost, no matter what ultimately happens to their general.
2) You are not forced to cast the general immediately, but if you don't, you'll have to pay mana for it again (though not the general tax).
3) If you truly wish to discard your general, you can (even for non-Haakon generals; I don't see that as a problem since they've already paid the total cost anyway). Haakon may be discarded in order to actually cast him, Ninjutsu generals can use their Ninjutsu ability (even though your opponent knows it's waiting in the wings and you'll be paying the cost+tax+ninjutsu), Channel/Grandeur generals can be discarded (but you've also paid their total cost each time, so it can't be easily abused), etc.
4) Generals which care about being cast from the hand get their normal benefit.
5) You can still power your general through a Teferi lock: the special action isn't on the stack (which means you can cast your general as part of the resolution of the action), and triggered abilities can't exile your general from the stack when cast this way (which means that while Knowledge Pool will trigger, it won't do anything).
1) Because I haven't gotten there yet and there is one already in progress. I actually voted against it, but I would now (having been through this argument) change my vote. And about other people not liking it: that's why I'm trying to change this. I can't put a poll on this thread yet since we don't have a fully-optimized version of the change so any votes would be rendered irrelevant with each revision, until then gauging full interest is impossible.
2) Ok, so test with him. I can't because I don't have the time. You have no evidence how prominent this card will be as a general since the change is not universal yet. If he gets "fixed" then immediately banned: so be it. But I doubt it.
3) That's your problem with 1 card and he would function in a different role as a general since the new plan is: drop him fast then beat down with him. The win should come quickly, if not through outright concession then from the speed you claim he has.
4) if you don't want to play around it every single game, why don't you, I don't know? MAKE A HOUSE RULE BANNING IT? Seems easier to let everyone have a chance playing a commander than forcing them to avoid ones because of a GLITCH.
5) no it can't. they aren't creatures. they aren't the commander of an army of 99 other things. Umezawa's Jitte cannot give orders to me. It's not alive. That was the flavor of the format from the get-go.
Level 1 Judge
I think you're overvaluing the card. There are more effective ways to cause people to dump their hands, and faster strategies than using Myojin of Night's Reach as your general. I don't see the card as bannable, it will certainly be a good deck and a high quality general, but I don't see it as degenerate.
Hell Maralen of the Mornsong is more degenerate with quick mass discard than Myojin.
Level 1 Judge
I think people are undervaluing the power of the commander slot. It's not an insurmountable advantage, but neither is taking an extra turn for two mana, and we still don't allow that.
No need to shout, friend. Why don't you make a house rule allowing it? I already have to apply social pressure to keep obnoxious stuff like Mind Over Matter combo out of my metagame, I really don't want to have another thing to add to my list.
I certainly don't consider it a glitch. Needing to be cast from your hand isn't just about blocking reanimation - that's what Eldrazi/Incarnation shuffle abilities are for. It also lets people not in blue deal with your threat by forcing you to discard it.
That was your interpretation of the flavor of the format from the get-go, although I suspect you mean your personal get-go rather than the format's origins. Equally valid interpretations of the original setup could be 'Elder Dragon Legends only' or 'any Legendary permanent'. Or 'any card that is Legendary when it flips/transforms'.
Meanwhile, Wizards is certainly aware of the EDH rules and can dance around them just fine for future cards; notice Chalice of Life's transform condition as compared to Serra Ascendant.
FAKE EDIT: I still hate this idea, but I like your new wording. 'As though' is a lot better than 'treated as'. I would make this change though: 'for each time it previously left the command zone.' I can't think of any card-in-hand activated abilities that don't discard the card except Forecast, which has never been printed on a legendary creature; was one mentioned earlier in the thread? You probably need another clause about how an ability that discards as a cost moves the card to the graveyard, since 'discard' is defined as 'hand to yard' by the comprehensive rules. Maybe have it go to your hand and get discarded from there?
Edit: Important note: pushing only for the CAST rule is actually more likely to be noticed because it's a much SMALLER change and seems less intimidating while also addressing a large number of the generals in questions.
That stuff just doesn't seem correct, but I'm no rules guru.
Since Wizards has official commander products, and will likely print more in the future, you can also safely assume that for every legendary printed in the future (even ones not specifically for commander) they will consider the impact of it on the format. If it has a clause about being played from your hand then they probably didn't want it as a commander.
Can you tell me any other general that can insta-kill someone with 40 life with NO other help other than a Greaves? That's why this potential rule change is too easily broken. Anyone playing Phage would find this combo extremely easy to pull off.
You're forgetting that Phage will be a known threat, everybody sitting down at that game will see Phage as the general and know they need to play around it.
A, there was help. You started that play off with Damnation. B, how is this any better than tutoring for Phage? There are enough tutors available in black that you should be able to put that turn together easily, and people won't have the benefit of seeing her in the command zone first. C, your terrifying example cost 11 mana, including BBBBB, and took 3 cards. There are plenty of general based combos that can go off with much less support then that.
I'm still not a fan of this idea, as it adds complexity to the rules for a very small gain, but the people arguing against it are doing a much better job of swaying me towards it than the people arguing for it.
Pay 2 for each commander emblem: Split second. Put your commander from command zone to you hand. You gain an commander emblem.
So you can now play/cycling/channel/suspend/whatever you like legally.
Edit:
About night reach and phage: Hmm I am not worrying about these. We already hv a lot of broken commanders, why not add two to the grand melee?
Funny case: If I hv only fow in my hand and 2 colorless mana, I can get my blue commander from command zone and pitch it to fow...
I do not sign 5yr+ old cards. Please do not pm me for this.
and for that exact reason I don't like this. It functionally changes the way the command zone works as opposed to adding to it. Keep it coming though, these are all helpful to have down on record.
Also side note: when Weebo and Weebos post like that in line with each other it makes my head spin.
Level 1 Judge
I kind of like that the General is cast from the General Zone.
One things for sure you can't have the general become part of your hand... or else you open up a ton of effects that can put cards into play for cheap... and other effects that cards in your hand are relevant for... basically being given a free card is bad... Blue Commander always being able to fuel FoW, etc....
[Legacy]
ANT
Imperial Painter
1. I think the benefit granted by this change does not outweigh the added complexity. Herp derp.
2. Changing this rule would instantly increase the power level of decks built around these generals while doing nothing to change the effectiveness of others. Part of the fun of commander is building a deck around your general and all of these generals can already be played. A friend of mine has spent a lot of time and effort making a Phage the Untouchable deck that is viable and fun to play. All of the generals listed have restrictions written on them because they also have very powerful other abilities. There are already plenty cards with effects that can stifle Phage’s ETB ability or bounce a Myojin/Ninja/card with grandeur printed on it back to your hand.
I propose a different solution to make all these generals more playable and potentially benefit all other decks/add a number of play styles without making others ineffective or broken.
Instead of changing the rule about casting your general from the command zone, add a new rule:
“You may pay your generals’s casting cost plus commander tax to move that card from the command zone to your hand. Play this effect only during one of your main phases.”
This has a number of other advantages:
1. It gives you yet another way to put your general into your hand where you may want it.
2. It can be done within the confines of the rules.
3. It is easy to understand.
The second line could be changed to say several things to balance the effect. For example:
“Play this ability only any time you could play an Instant.”
“Play this ability only any time you could cast your Commander.”
“Play this ability only any time you could play a Sorcery.”
Thoughts?
With that said, here is a rules change that should allow everything else:
You may cast your commander and activate abilities of your commander from the command zone with the additional cost of "move this card to your hand".
What I'm doing is making the part where it goes to your hand a part of the cost. No priority is given, you can only do this if you can pay all the costs, and the clause where you can activate abilities from the command zone is more or less the exact same way we are able to cast the commander in the first place.
Casting Phage for a second time would look like this:
Move this card to your hand, 2, 3BBBB
Using Arashi, the Sky Sunder's abilitiy would look like this:
Move this card to your hand, XGG, Discard Arashi: Arashi deals X damage to each creature with flying.
Some small tweaking might have to be done to allow for Ith, since Suspend is a special action that doesn't follow the standard activation cost: ability effect template, but this is the cleanest method I can think of.
If I read correctly, the general is not in your hand and it only count as play from hand if play from general zone. That make card like Flask and hand destruction no effect with this change, which I think it good.
I love your wording and almost fully agree with it...
until I suddenly find that I can activate kamahl from command zone for free.Edit: my bad. Can't tap a card in my hand.
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The problem with this is take the simple example of the first use of Isamaru from the command zone. I can basically pay W to move it to my hand at no other benefit. This just seems so wrong. Again, it adds a drawing functionality to the command zone that shouldnt be there. Say I have Vedalken Orrery in play and an opponent controls a Bottomless Pit, I have one card in hand and Isamaru is in the command zone. During my upkeep I can respond to the Pit trigger by "flashing" my commander into my hand and adding another potential card to the random selection, thus possibly saving my wrath of god or whatever? If this is really the case in this situation (which I'm not sure it is I'm just suggesting for now) this seems like it makes the command zone a much more broken resource than the sort of out-of-game commander pocket it is now.
basically this. the reason I have mine worded the way I do is because it avoids including activated abilities like Visara, and Saffi who can sac from the command zone this way. Very annoying.
Level 1 Judge
Put your commander into your hand from command zone, then cast it or activate one of it's abilities once, with additional cost 2 for each commander emblem you own: You gain a commander emblem, then return your commander to command zone if it is in your hand. This ability does not use the stack.
Work well in:
Karador/cost reduction check: successfully reduced
Flash commander check: timing restrict to the card itself
Bounced-to-hand commander check: not affected
Ith/Arashi/Inkeye check: ability successfully played
Haakon check: prohibited
But something unexpected:
Onna/Geth/Chainer/Kuro check: Can be play as one-shot
Patron of the Moon: Broken. Super-exploration?
Put your commander into your hand from command zone, then cast it or activate one of it's abilities that require discard or exile itself from hand, with additional cost 2 for each commander emblem you own: You gain a commander emblem. This ability does not use the stack.
This fixs problems... in an ugly way.
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That's an ability that can only be activated while Patron. There are VERY few abilities of any cards that can be used outside of the battlefield, and even fewer for generals.
The big thing is, we don't want to create any situation in which people can opt to move their commander to their hand, and pass priority before discarding it or casting it. They can't have the option to split costs, or move the commander over for a discard effect.
While your commander is in the command zone, you may cast it or activate abilities as though it where in your hand. If you do you gain a commander emblem.
At any time you could cast your commander, you may pay it's total cost to move it to your hand. If you do, cast it without paying it's mana cost if able. Otherwise, discard your commander. You gain a commander emblem.
^ Minimalist approach
Put your commander into your hand from command zone, then cast it or activate one of it's abilities that require discard or exile itself from hand, with additional cost 2 for each commander emblem you own: You gain a commander emblem. This ability does not use the stack.
Do it as a cost rather than a effect:
Add the commander to hand is a COST. Casting it/activate it(with tax) is also a COST. Accroding to CR117.3. "A player can't pay a cost unless he or she has the necessary resources to pay it fully." If you choose to play this ability, you start paying the cost: moving the card to hand AND cast/activate it. After move it to your hand, if you find yourself unable to cast/activate it for whatever reason, i.e. this cost can't be paid, the whole action is illegal and must be rewinded, the commander goes back to command zone and nothing happens. Game status, if affected, get rewinded too. There is no way to discard it to a spellshaper, nor pitch it to force of will.
Doing it this way avoid a lot of "if you do" "if you don't" "until your next pass" checks. Plus put it under formal/suitable handling.
Abilility restriction "abilities that require discard or exile itself from hand":
This is to make sure you commander will not sit in your hand after this ability is solved. Discard(Channel:Arashi, Cycling:Sliver queen/lord with Homing Sliver in play), Exile from hand(Suspend:Ith) are current abilities fitting this limit.
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It is better to make it a special action than to be an ability with split second. Special actions are things like morph or playing a land; they can't be responded to and don't use the stack.
This doesn't work. Costs may be paid in any order, so moving the general to your hand can't be part of the cost. It needs to be a separate action, or part of the effect of an action.
Again, putting the general in the hand as a cost doesn't work. An "if you do/don't" wording is perfectly clear, and more importantly, it works within the rules.
What about this:
Any time you could cast your general, you may pay its mana cost, plus for each time you've returned your general to your Command zone this game, and move your general from your Command zone to your hand (this is a special action and does not use the stack). Then, you may cast your general without paying its mana cost. Triggered abilities may not exile your general from the stack when cast this way.
This does a few things:
1) It gets everyone to pay the total cost, no matter what ultimately happens to their general.
2) You are not forced to cast the general immediately, but if you don't, you'll have to pay mana for it again (though not the general tax).
3) If you truly wish to discard your general, you can (even for non-Haakon generals; I don't see that as a problem since they've already paid the total cost anyway). Haakon may be discarded in order to actually cast him, Ninjutsu generals can use their Ninjutsu ability (even though your opponent knows it's waiting in the wings and you'll be paying the cost+tax+ninjutsu), Channel/Grandeur generals can be discarded (but you've also paid their total cost each time, so it can't be easily abused), etc.
4) Generals which care about being cast from the hand get their normal benefit.
5) You can still power your general through a Teferi lock: the special action isn't on the stack (which means you can cast your general as part of the resolution of the action), and triggered abilities can't exile your general from the stack when cast this way (which means that while Knowledge Pool will trigger, it won't do anything).
This doesn't do much for Ith, unfortunately.
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