Nerfing most of combo by adopting the Legacy banned list also does this, by default.
Exactly this.
At the very least, this bears testing before skewing the meta in the opposite direction to clearly favor another archetype. High life totals is the least of Aggro's trouble; Combo and Control decks having more proficient tutors and broken combo cards that once dominated Legacy is the bigger problem Aggro has to face. Opposing decks having all their win cons practically in hand (or having the silver bullet readily available) is one of the serious issues with competitive EDH that our adopting the Legacy ban list is trying to mitigate. Dropping the life totals to 20 for the sake of complete Legacy solidarity is just irresponsible and introduces too many variables to this otherwise potentially fruitful test we're conducting. Our golden number is either 25 or 30, but probably 30, since there's still the matter of definining characteristics and all (General Damage, which ought to be viable with the Legacy ban list enacted).
I'm glad to see that some of y'all have been testing things out in advance. Question for Christian and Gaka:
What specific situations draw you to the conclusion that having certain Tier 1 tutors unbanned is healthier for the format? Is it the lack of having, say, Demonic Tutor in hand when faced with an overwhelming threat that's the issue, the newfound difficulty of assembling synergistic engines and/or combos as easily, or does it have more to do with not having had enough time to test out other more versatile cards to fill the void of the redundancy that tutors have to offer? Or something else?
And while I'm at it, to the OP: Tucking is so goddamn stupid I could spit. Patooey and all that. But I understand if changing the rule on that is not the sort of thing we want skewing this test, even though I want to Dragon Uppercut you for not being progressive enough on such a backwards taken-for-granted rules oversight that has no place in competitive EDH.
From the testing I have done I think aggro is going to be very dangerous in this format and definitely something that needs to be taken into account in deck building.
Since new formats always favor aggressive strategies I see fast red based aggro decks with lots of reach doing well initially. This includes decks like:
-Lyzolda
-Radha
-Uril
-Horde of Notions (5colour Zoo aggro)
-Brion (Boros has alot of powerfull cards and the general gives nice reach, although a better general would be nice. See http://blog.magicplayer.org/2011/04/20/hl-gp-8-place-2-martin-pieler-boros-report-deck/ for inspiration)
White based aggro decks could also do very well, such as:
-Isamaru
-Gaddock Teeg
Since I think aggressive creature strategies will be prevalent I expect the natural counter to these would be what are commonly termed "mid range" decks, or slower, creature based card advantage decks. These come in so many flavors that it would be hard to list them all.
As for combo I expect the most influential to include some combination of the following:
-Gifts Ungiven / Intuition as the major enablers
-Academy Ruins + Mindslaver
-Painter's Servant + Grindstone
-Crucible of Worlds + Wasteland / Smokestacks
With these fitting into some sort of Combo/Control shell. I expect the pure "combo" archetype will be composed of Arcum decks and Zur decks (where the combo is casting and protecting your general) and I expect these to be quite powerful.
For one I am really excited about this new format.
To be honest, I never really understood why gifts ungiven was banned. its a good CA card but if anything the format is way too fast for it to be as good as the usual tutors. And don't even get me started on ''it fetches LD packages'' since intuition does the same thing yet it isn't banned.
The format is pretty cute but I think 20 life is a bit too much. 25 would seem right to me because now players dont even consider dark confidant / dark tutelage and price of progress is a one-burn-kill most of the time.
Control vs. Aggro seems balanced and the banlist is solid but some cards could get unbanned like demonic tutor. The card got banned mostly of turn 2 combo decks in legacy but it doesn't apply here since you have a highlander decklist.
ninja edit: some cards on the legacy list did really deserve a ban though. Cards like mana drain and hermit druid were a bit too crazy in my opinion, eventhough I've used mana drain in every single deck I've built.
At the very least, this bears testing before skewing the meta in the opposite direction to clearly favor another archetype. High life totals is the least of Aggro's trouble; Combo and Control decks having more proficient tutors and broken combo cards that once dominated Legacy is the bigger problem Aggro has to face. Opposing decks having all their win cons practically in hand (or having the silver bullet readily available) is one of the serious issues with competitive EDH that our adopting the Legacy ban list is trying to mitigate. Dropping the life totals to 20 for the sake of complete Legacy solidarity is just irresponsible and introduces too many variables to this otherwise potentially fruitful test we're conducting. Our golden number is either 25 or 30, but probably 30, since there's still the matter of definining characteristics and all (General Damage, which ought to be viable with the Legacy ban list enacted).
I'm glad to see that some of y'all have been testing things out in advance. Question for Christian and Gaka:
What specific situations draw you to the conclusion that having certain Tier 1 tutors unbanned is healthier for the format? Is it the lack of having, say, Demonic Tutor in hand when faced with an overwhelming threat that's the issue, the newfound difficulty of assembling synergistic engines and/or combos as easily, or does it have more to do with not having had enough time to test out other more versatile cards to fill the void of the redundancy that tutors have to offer? Or something else?
I wholeheartedly agree with you Riley. Changing too many things at once is not going to solve our problems. If we are to take this seriously, we need to keep what we change to a minimum so that we can compare it to what we already know more accurately.
To answer your question I think that if any of the Tier 1 tutors were to be unbanned it would be Demonic Tutor and only Demonic Tutor. It's an iconic card, it's sorcery speed and any deck that can play black will have the option to play it. It's good for every archetype that can play it.
Being primarily a control player I find myself really wanting it when I'm in a dire situation and I need an out OR when I would like to apply pressure in the mirror. With the other two tutors banned (Mystical and Vampiric) I think it leaves enough room for a single tutor to keep things interesting without the, "Start with all the tutors then build the deck" mentality. EDH absolutely needs powerful cards to feel like EDH. Like I have said before competitive 1v1 EDH should be directly between Vintage and Legacy. The format needs the power of cards like Mana Drain and Demonic Tutor while inspiring a truly healthy format such as Legacy.
Some of you may think that you have made great mistakes in your lives, and perhaps you have. But let me ask you this.... did you ever play strip poker with two fat chicks and win?
Just from the testing I've been doing, building your deck to beat aggro is so much more interactive and enjoyable than building your deck to beat combo.
And unbanning Demonic Tutor means U/B probably has access to too many tutors. I don't see a real need for its unbanning.
Just from the testing I've been doing, building your deck to beat aggro is so much more interactive and enjoyable than building your deck to beat combo.
And unbanning Demonic Tutor means U/B probably has access to too many tutors. I don't see a real need for its unbanning.
I agree. Beating Aggro tends to be easier than beating combo. Case in point: classic pauper. When goblins were top it was easy to hate them out, but now that storm is the top deck it is much harder since there are less answers to the decktype. Wizards often has to make very niche cards to deal with combo decks that may not be useful elsewhere (extirpate, Mindbreak trap, leyline of sanctity) whereas most cards designed by wizards are based around creatures and their dealing of combat.
So I am on wizards side when it comes to making combo less efficient.
Just from the testing I've been doing, building your deck to beat aggro is so much more interactive and enjoyable than building your deck to beat combo.
And unbanning Demonic Tutor means U/B probably has access to too many tutors. I don't see a real need for its unbanning.
Exept those cards are irrelevant in EDH in most cases and were just fueling combo in some outrageous legacy decks. They can get unbanned but it wouldn't make a difference anyways.
fake edit: 25 LIFE PLAX!!
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Once I made a misplay. I lost the game.
Xian says:
but now i dont have double vision,and stuff
i looks just like a normal person
The format is officially broken: at 2:45 am est Swanofblood beat fluxuate using Barren Glory. That will be all.
I'll be withdrawing from the tournament due to having my mind blown.
20 life and 30 new banned cards aren't enough. Something needs to be done about combo. We are losing players because of this non-interactive archetype, and that's just unacceptable.
He was just trying desperately hard to be funny
Mono red is pretty good, and can win turn 4ish.
Lyzolda aggro is pretty solid also.
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The argument for 20 life is that it would make aggro more viable
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We'll see how it goes I suppose.
Anyone want to test? I'm going to be whipping up some decks soon.
Nerfing most of combo by adopting the Legacy banned list also does this, by default.
I suppose control would be out of hand if it was both 30 life and legacy list then, would it not be?
Exactly this.
At the very least, this bears testing before skewing the meta in the opposite direction to clearly favor another archetype. High life totals is the least of Aggro's trouble; Combo and Control decks having more proficient tutors and broken combo cards that once dominated Legacy is the bigger problem Aggro has to face. Opposing decks having all their win cons practically in hand (or having the silver bullet readily available) is one of the serious issues with competitive EDH that our adopting the Legacy ban list is trying to mitigate. Dropping the life totals to 20 for the sake of complete Legacy solidarity is just irresponsible and introduces too many variables to this otherwise potentially fruitful test we're conducting. Our golden number is either 25 or 30, but probably 30, since there's still the matter of definining characteristics and all (General Damage, which ought to be viable with the Legacy ban list enacted).
I'm glad to see that some of y'all have been testing things out in advance. Question for Christian and Gaka:
What specific situations draw you to the conclusion that having certain Tier 1 tutors unbanned is healthier for the format? Is it the lack of having, say, Demonic Tutor in hand when faced with an overwhelming threat that's the issue, the newfound difficulty of assembling synergistic engines and/or combos as easily, or does it have more to do with not having had enough time to test out other more versatile cards to fill the void of the redundancy that tutors have to offer? Or something else?
And while I'm at it, to the OP: Tucking is so goddamn stupid I could spit. Patooey and all that. But I understand if changing the rule on that is not the sort of thing we want skewing this test, even though I want to Dragon Uppercut you for not being progressive enough on such a backwards taken-for-granted rules oversight that has no place in competitive EDH.
I'm wearing my serious face so hard right now.
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Since new formats always favor aggressive strategies I see fast red based aggro decks with lots of reach doing well initially. This includes decks like:
-Lyzolda
-Radha
-Uril
-Horde of Notions (5colour Zoo aggro)
-Brion (Boros has alot of powerfull cards and the general gives nice reach, although a better general would be nice. See http://blog.magicplayer.org/2011/04/20/hl-gp-8-place-2-martin-pieler-boros-report-deck/ for inspiration)
White based aggro decks could also do very well, such as:
-Isamaru
-Gaddock Teeg
Since I think aggressive creature strategies will be prevalent I expect the natural counter to these would be what are commonly termed "mid range" decks, or slower, creature based card advantage decks. These come in so many flavors that it would be hard to list them all.
As for combo I expect the most influential to include some combination of the following:
-Gifts Ungiven / Intuition as the major enablers
-Academy Ruins + Mindslaver
-Painter's Servant + Grindstone
-Crucible of Worlds + Wasteland / Smokestacks
With these fitting into some sort of Combo/Control shell. I expect the pure "combo" archetype will be composed of Arcum decks and Zur decks (where the combo is casting and protecting your general) and I expect these to be quite powerful.
For one I am really excited about this new format.
To be honest, I never really understood why gifts ungiven was banned. its a good CA card but if anything the format is way too fast for it to be as good as the usual tutors. And don't even get me started on ''it fetches LD packages'' since intuition does the same thing yet it isn't banned.
The format is pretty cute but I think 20 life is a bit too much. 25 would seem right to me because now players dont even consider dark confidant / dark tutelage and price of progress is a one-burn-kill most of the time.
Control vs. Aggro seems balanced and the banlist is solid but some cards could get unbanned like demonic tutor. The card got banned mostly of turn 2 combo decks in legacy but it doesn't apply here since you have a highlander decklist.
ninja edit: some cards on the legacy list did really deserve a ban though. Cards like mana drain and hermit druid were a bit too crazy in my opinion, eventhough I've used mana drain in every single deck I've built.
Xian says:
but now i dont have double vision,and stuff
i looks just like a normal person
I wholeheartedly agree with you Riley. Changing too many things at once is not going to solve our problems. If we are to take this seriously, we need to keep what we change to a minimum so that we can compare it to what we already know more accurately.
To answer your question I think that if any of the Tier 1 tutors were to be unbanned it would be Demonic Tutor and only Demonic Tutor. It's an iconic card, it's sorcery speed and any deck that can play black will have the option to play it. It's good for every archetype that can play it.
Being primarily a control player I find myself really wanting it when I'm in a dire situation and I need an out OR when I would like to apply pressure in the mirror. With the other two tutors banned (Mystical and Vampiric) I think it leaves enough room for a single tutor to keep things interesting without the, "Start with all the tutors then build the deck" mentality. EDH absolutely needs powerful cards to feel like EDH. Like I have said before competitive 1v1 EDH should be directly between Vintage and Legacy. The format needs the power of cards like Mana Drain and Demonic Tutor while inspiring a truly healthy format such as Legacy.
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Some of you may think that you have made great mistakes in your lives, and perhaps you have. But let me ask you this.... did you ever play strip poker with two fat chicks and win?
Cockatrice name: Ninja Nate
And unbanning Demonic Tutor means U/B probably has access to too many tutors. I don't see a real need for its unbanning.
I would much rather see the more obviously balanced cards like Frantic Search, Earthcraft and Memory Jar unbanned first.
I agree. Beating Aggro tends to be easier than beating combo. Case in point: classic pauper. When goblins were top it was easy to hate them out, but now that storm is the top deck it is much harder since there are less answers to the decktype. Wizards often has to make very niche cards to deal with combo decks that may not be useful elsewhere (extirpate, Mindbreak trap, leyline of sanctity) whereas most cards designed by wizards are based around creatures and their dealing of combat.
So I am on wizards side when it comes to making combo less efficient.
Exept those cards are irrelevant in EDH in most cases and were just fueling combo in some outrageous legacy decks. They can get unbanned but it wouldn't make a difference anyways.
fake edit: 25 LIFE PLAX!!
Xian says:
but now i dont have double vision,and stuff
i looks just like a normal person
You can probably find a game easily.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Getting mana screwed really hurts.
I'll be accepting decklists either tomorrow or the day after. That'll run for a week, then we'll have the pairings for the first round posted.
Good luck everyone!
Like smashing face? Like not worrying about pitiful tokens or life gain? Check out Stonebrow, Krosan Hero for all your face smashing needs
I'll be withdrawing from the tournament due to having my mind blown.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
I found tears rolling down my face following that play, it was just....so...beautiful.
Like smashing face? Like not worrying about pitiful tokens or life gain? Check out Stonebrow, Krosan Hero for all your face smashing needs
20 life and 30 new banned cards aren't enough. Something needs to be done about combo. We are losing players because of this non-interactive archetype, and that's just unacceptable.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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Like smashing face? Like not worrying about pitiful tokens or life gain? Check out Stonebrow, Krosan Hero for all your face smashing needs