Widely regarded as one of red's best cards, currently in 96% of cubes in eidolon's list, and on the Top20 boards for red.
I'm beginning to think it's overvalued based on recent cards that have come out. It's good, but I think Thundermaw Hellkite and Zealous Conscripts are both actually better cards for most red decks. Siege-Gang has always been good because he can provide reach once the other deck has stabilized, and both of the other cards do a better job of that, in my opinion.
I bring this up because I'm thinking about including Kiki-Jiki in my list to provide interesting gameplay, and I don't think I need any more 5 drops in red, so I'd have to cut Thundermaw, Conscripts, or Siege-Gang, and he actually seems like the worst of the three, which surprised me.
I recognize that this guy is great, and he's been around for so long that EVERYONE has a story about how this guy got them out of a sticky situation, or some amazing story about sticking it on a mimic vat or putting it out with Venser in play, or whatever. I recognize that his ceiling is high. I'm just trying to figure out if the average red deck would rather have this guy or if it would rather have conscripts/Thundermaw, and I always seem to come down on the side of those guys. So I'm asking you to take a minute before thinking about those great stories and consider what effect your red decks really want.
This is still my go-to red creature. It's 5 power, 4 threats, 8 direct damage, creature removal, reach and very easy to abuse. I think it's easily one of red's best creatures, and I'll play it in pretty much every single red deck.
I get that it's good, but none of that explains why it's better than the two other 5 drops I'm comparing it to, Thundermaw and Conscripts.
Using the things you said you liked about it, compared to Thundermaw they're both 5 power for 5 damage, but Thundermaw has evasion, kills small fliers, and deals 5 the turn it comes down, which SGC doesn't. If you have all the mana you need, SGC is 8 damage for 13 mana (assuming they don't get through attacking), and probably over 2 turns. Thundermaw is 10 damage over those same turns. I'd also consider a big flier that gets blockers out of the way "reach"
Conscripts also, IMO, qualifies as "reach", because it does things like get Vorapede, Baneslayer Angel, etc. out of the way, as well as other cool things it does stealing permenents. It's not as much damage by itself, but it depends on what it's taking, so it's hard to quantify.
So basically, in my opinion I think the only place SGC is better than either of those two creatures is that it's creature removal. And it's so inefficient at that, I don't think it's enough to push it over the edge.
Siege-Gang is my "cursed" card in my cube. In the almost three years I've been cubing, I have never untapped with a SGC still intact.
I've drafted it twice, and both nights I was not able to untap with a living SGC either. Thing eats hate like it's its job. I do love the card, though. Quite much. Having seen what others have been able to do with it I have no problem keeping it in my cube, plus, it with Skullclamp just screams card advantage.
passes the infamous vindicate test. also good with blinking and cloning effects, as well as giving the owner tons of options.
Zealous Conscripts passes the Vindicate test, too, as well as being great with blinking/cloning effects. In the past few months I've noticed more often than not that I would prefer the Siege-Gang Commander in my hand to be a Zealous Conscripts.
In any event, I agree that SGC is the 3rd-best 5 drop creature in the cube, due to its high variance. It's also pretty durdly, and cubes are so much faster now than they were 2 years ago that a durdly card has to have a pretty high ceiling to include it.
Which is to say, I think it's worthy of including, for now, even in a smaller list. With the majority of people moving their red sections into something more than strictly dumb burn (especially you, JeffDerek), you could (should?) run all 3 of them. I think of red's 5-cc creature section as a clogged spot, similar to white's 4cc spell section.
I include all four in my list because red was becoming really stale being the aggro color and nothing else. Each of these cards makes the game more fun in some way.
I get that it's good, but none of that explains why it's better than the two other 5 drops I'm comparing it to, Thundermaw and Conscripts.
Well, for one, it's far better against 1-for-1 removal, because it leaves you with three threats on the board after they kill the main body. For two, it can win through cards that isolate or neutralize a single threat, like Icy, Maze, Tamiyo and others. For three, it functions as creature removal, and it can kill important utility creatures in situations where the direct damage won't kill your opponent. For four, it's a creature that can become insanely abusive with all kinds of various cube effects, like blink, bounce, recursion, cloning and cards like Vat/Nightmare. For five, it's an army in a can which makes it better with anthems and battle cry, as well as sac effects like Braids and Smokestack. For six, it's a far better defensive card for red decks that want creatures that can double as good blockers; control decks love being able to drop 4 upgraded Fanatics to the board. That aspect of the card can make it devastating in the mirror match where they can no longer keep up with your numbers. For seven, a few niche cards like Imperial Recruiter and Reveillark love the fact that he's a 2-power target.
I'm sure there's more, but those are just the ones off the top of my head. It has its pros and cons against the other red 5-drops, but there are certainly reasons why it can be better.
they've been printing better and better creatures and this guy still looks great even against the competition. red doesn't often get cards like this, but then there aren't a lot of cards like this in any color. cloudgoat ranger, deranged hermit, and geist-honored monk are the better "army in a can" cards at 5 mana, and i think siege-gang competes with them handily. thundermaw has raw power but not a lot of flexibility or synergy with other cards. if you're looking for interesting interactions (hence, the kiki-jiki include) i'd cut the dragon and keep the guy who plays with blink, anthems, and stax strategies.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I think Siege-gang is much better than all the cards mentioned in the opening post. It's one of the top red cards that I would first pick. I LOVE Siege-gang in Cube.
If I'm choosing between Siege-Gang and Kiki-Jiki, I'd take Kiki-Jiki, just because the ability is so unique and it's great when a unique effect can still be so powerful.
But the two of them are unbelievably good together, and along with FTK make a wicked combo for red based midrange or control strategies. I'm not sure how big your cube is, but for me at 630 keeping both seems to be the way to go.
I haven't yet acquired a Zealous Conscripts or a Thundermaw Hellkite, so luckily I have a little less competition, but I'd look at cutting a 6-drop before one of the goblins.
For me it is:
Siege-Gang
Kiki-Jiki
Zealous Conscripts
Thundermaw Hellkite
I have all of them in my 495 cube. For me Thundermaw just isn't as interesting as the Siege-Gang or the others. Siege Gang's versatility is part of the reason he is great.
they've been printing better and better creatures and this guy still looks great even against the competition. red doesn't often get cards like this, but then there aren't a lot of cards like this in any color. cloudgoat ranger, deranged hermit, and geist-honored monk are the better "army in a can" cards at 5 mana, and i think siege-gang competes with them handily. thundermaw has raw power but not a lot of flexibility or synergy with other cards. if you're looking for interesting interactions (hence, the kiki-jiki include) i'd cut the dragon and keep the guy who plays with blink, anthems, and stax strategies.
My experience with the card has been that, although it is indeed an army in a can, the fact that I can't do any additional damage to my opponent, or affect the opponent's board state in any way if I cast SGC on curve (or even with 6 mana up), means the army I'm getting is less important to me in the short run than Hellkite or Conscripts, especially if I'm about to swing for critical.
But like I said, I think it deserves its place in even the smaller lists. It's just not as important as the other 2 5-drops.
I haven't yet acquired a Zealous Conscripts or a Thundermaw Hellkite, so luckily I have a little less competition, but I'd look at cutting a 6-drop before one of the goblins.
That'd have to be Inferno Titan. My cube right now has 4 creatures that cost more than 4 mana in red: SGC, Conscripts, Thundermaw, and Titan. In order to bring in Kiki-Jiki, I have to either decide that I'm ok with having even more big creatures in red, or cut one of them. Maybe cutting one is the right decision, maybe cutting something else is right.
I haven't decided to cut Siege-Gang yet. We cut him for the draft tonight, but I'm not dead set that it's the right decision, which is why I started the thread to ask questions. After someone pointed out in my thread that I had a pretty top heavy red section, I was a little hesitant to keep adding more top end without cutting to. I'll give it some more thought with the points brought up here.
Looking at your cube I would consider all of the following cuts before SGC
Mogg War Marshal (Much cheaper but if you are abusing etb effects.....)
Staggershock (Only 2 shocks instead of 4)
Mizzium Mortors (Doesn't go to the face)
Keldon Champion (4 mana bolt)
Inferno Titan (6 mana is getting a lot bigger than 5 in the R/x cube decks I am making lately, ends up in a lot of X/r decks unlike SCG... might just be me)
I'm honestly shocked that people would consider cutting this card. It is a huge threat that still leaves behind a reasonable threat if it gets 1 for 1ed, if you have more than 7 mana to start it could have even faster impact, has synergies with a huge number of cards, etc... etc...
I'm honestly shocked that people would consider cutting this card. It is a huge threat that still leaves behind a reasonable threat if it gets 1 for 1ed, if you have more than 7 mana to start it could have even faster impact, has synergies with a huge number of cards, etc... etc...
I don't really consider 3 1/1 tokens a reasonable threat if it gets 1 for 1ed. It's nice that you don't lose everything, but rarely something that's going to turn the game in my favor.
The point, though, isn't that SGC isn't a good card. I've never tried to argue that. I'm just trying to figure out how many 5 drops red really needs. At 450, I'm not sure I want to be spending 4 slots on 5drops. And if you accept the design goal of including splinter twin combo, which pretty much necessitates including kikijiki and zealous conscripts, then you're left with two decisions
1) Cut SGC or Thundermaw Hellkite
2) Run four 5drops in red.
Since I'm underwhelmed by the premise of running four 5drops, I figured I'd start the discussion about whether SGC still held his own against cards like Thundermaw. And that's why I'm considering cutting him. Telling me all the good things he does doesn't change my mind: I like the card. I'm far more interested in hearing why he's still better than Thundermaw Hellkite, a card that I think fits into what my average red deck wants to do far more often.
At this point I've heard a lot of reasoning in both directions, I'm still fairly undecided, and SGC hasn't yet been cut. I don't know that there's a right answer, but there sure is a lot of top end in a supposed aggro color right now.
I'm honestly shocked that people would consider cutting this card. It is a huge threat that still leaves behind a reasonable threat if it gets 1 for 1ed, if you have more than 7 mana to start it could have even faster impact, has synergies with a huge number of cards, etc... etc...
Chris, people aren't cutting it for being bad. They are cutting it because they think it might be the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th best 5 cost red creature in cube, so if you are going to argue against cutting it, argue against that (or argue that they should run all of them at any size). Talking about non marginal value is next to useless for this decision, because all the cards in the mix are great, and it's not like anyone is unaware of what SGC can do.
I'd cut keldon champion for SCG (or whatever other 5 drop you are considering). Thundermaw and Keldon are both similar as hasty beaters, and thundermaw is better at it and has no annoying upkeep which allows you to deploy more burn or threats.
Swarming through is also evasion compared to flying. Throwing shocks for the last bit of damage is good too, especially when the board has stalled. I'd rather draw siege-gang than thundermaw.
Seems like you have your mind set tho, and it appears to me that the best arguments have been laid out already, so I'm not sure what other argument you are waiting to hear to change your opinion.
Swarming through is also evasion compared to flying. Throwing shocks for the last bit of damage is good too, especially when the board has stalled. I'd rather draw siege-gang than thundermaw.
I'm intrigued by this. On a stalled board, you'd rather have Siege Gang. I'm assuming here that you don't have 9 mana, so the best you can do the turn you play him (lets say 7-8 mana available) is one shock. Thundermaw, unless he dies to removal, is always getting through for 5 that first time, since he gets all blockers out of the way. I think it's hard to make blanket statements that SGC is better on a stalled board.
Seems like you have your mind set tho, and it appears to me that the best arguments have been laid out already, so I'm not sure what other argument you are waiting to hear to change your opinion.
I don't have my mind made up. That's kinda the point. I'm still thinking it through, and I appreciate everyone's input. I'm also kinda wondering if anyone else was having similar thoughts.
I don't have my mind made up. That's kinda the point. I'm still thinking it through, and I appreciate everyone's input. I'm also kinda wondering if anyone else was having similar thoughts.
I am, though at this point I am not really pressed on cutting any of them. It is certainly possible that he is the third best 5 drop in red, especially for a curve topper in aggro. I think his versatility will keep him in though, especially since we Winchester draft a good bit.
I'm running all three at 330 with great success. 3 five drops may be one too many, but I see it as a little extra midrange/control support for red which is fine.
As for SGC, he's a pretty stellar card. I'd say he has the highest potential for upside out of the three red five drops, and his average performance is still good in the WCS: make 5/5 across 4 bodies with a built-in abuse mechanism. He only fails hard to Wrath, Earthquake and Pyroclasm effects, which is a reasonably narrow spectrum of removal. Red token effects are rare too and play great with Sarkhan Vol in aggro-midrange.
I run SGC, Kiki-Jiki and Conscripts in my 450. In terms of sheer power, Thundermaw should probably be in there, but the other thee are good enough for cube and are a lot more fun. Even my aggro Rx decks don't always need a five-drop, and having four cards in this slot would be one too many, I think.
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Widely regarded as one of red's best cards, currently in 96% of cubes in eidolon's list, and on the Top20 boards for red.
I'm beginning to think it's overvalued based on recent cards that have come out. It's good, but I think Thundermaw Hellkite and Zealous Conscripts are both actually better cards for most red decks. Siege-Gang has always been good because he can provide reach once the other deck has stabilized, and both of the other cards do a better job of that, in my opinion.
I bring this up because I'm thinking about including Kiki-Jiki in my list to provide interesting gameplay, and I don't think I need any more 5 drops in red, so I'd have to cut Thundermaw, Conscripts, or Siege-Gang, and he actually seems like the worst of the three, which surprised me.
I recognize that this guy is great, and he's been around for so long that EVERYONE has a story about how this guy got them out of a sticky situation, or some amazing story about sticking it on a mimic vat or putting it out with Venser in play, or whatever. I recognize that his ceiling is high. I'm just trying to figure out if the average red deck would rather have this guy or if it would rather have conscripts/Thundermaw, and I always seem to come down on the side of those guys. So I'm asking you to take a minute before thinking about those great stories and consider what effect your red decks really want.
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Using the things you said you liked about it, compared to Thundermaw they're both 5 power for 5 damage, but Thundermaw has evasion, kills small fliers, and deals 5 the turn it comes down, which SGC doesn't. If you have all the mana you need, SGC is 8 damage for 13 mana (assuming they don't get through attacking), and probably over 2 turns. Thundermaw is 10 damage over those same turns. I'd also consider a big flier that gets blockers out of the way "reach"
Conscripts also, IMO, qualifies as "reach", because it does things like get Vorapede, Baneslayer Angel, etc. out of the way, as well as other cool things it does stealing permenents. It's not as much damage by itself, but it depends on what it's taking, so it's hard to quantify.
So basically, in my opinion I think the only place SGC is better than either of those two creatures is that it's creature removal. And it's so inefficient at that, I don't think it's enough to push it over the edge.
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I've drafted it twice, and both nights I was not able to untap with a living SGC either. Thing eats hate like it's its job. I do love the card, though. Quite much. Having seen what others have been able to do with it I have no problem keeping it in my cube, plus, it with Skullclamp just screams card advantage.
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Zealous Conscripts passes the Vindicate test, too, as well as being great with blinking/cloning effects. In the past few months I've noticed more often than not that I would prefer the Siege-Gang Commander in my hand to be a Zealous Conscripts.
In any event, I agree that SGC is the 3rd-best 5 drop creature in the cube, due to its high variance. It's also pretty durdly, and cubes are so much faster now than they were 2 years ago that a durdly card has to have a pretty high ceiling to include it.
Which is to say, I think it's worthy of including, for now, even in a smaller list. With the majority of people moving their red sections into something more than strictly dumb burn (especially you, JeffDerek), you could (should?) run all 3 of them. I think of red's 5-cc creature section as a clogged spot, similar to white's 4cc spell section.
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Well, for one, it's far better against 1-for-1 removal, because it leaves you with three threats on the board after they kill the main body. For two, it can win through cards that isolate or neutralize a single threat, like Icy, Maze, Tamiyo and others. For three, it functions as creature removal, and it can kill important utility creatures in situations where the direct damage won't kill your opponent. For four, it's a creature that can become insanely abusive with all kinds of various cube effects, like blink, bounce, recursion, cloning and cards like Vat/Nightmare. For five, it's an army in a can which makes it better with anthems and battle cry, as well as sac effects like Braids and Smokestack. For six, it's a far better defensive card for red decks that want creatures that can double as good blockers; control decks love being able to drop 4 upgraded Fanatics to the board. That aspect of the card can make it devastating in the mirror match where they can no longer keep up with your numbers. For seven, a few niche cards like Imperial Recruiter and Reveillark love the fact that he's a 2-power target.
I'm sure there's more, but those are just the ones off the top of my head. It has its pros and cons against the other red 5-drops, but there are certainly reasons why it can be better.
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But the two of them are unbelievably good together, and along with FTK make a wicked combo for red based midrange or control strategies. I'm not sure how big your cube is, but for me at 630 keeping both seems to be the way to go.
I haven't yet acquired a Zealous Conscripts or a Thundermaw Hellkite, so luckily I have a little less competition, but I'd look at cutting a 6-drop before one of the goblins.
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Siege-Gang
Kiki-Jiki
Zealous Conscripts
Thundermaw Hellkite
I have all of them in my 495 cube. For me Thundermaw just isn't as interesting as the Siege-Gang or the others. Siege Gang's versatility is part of the reason he is great.
My experience with the card has been that, although it is indeed an army in a can, the fact that I can't do any additional damage to my opponent, or affect the opponent's board state in any way if I cast SGC on curve (or even with 6 mana up), means the army I'm getting is less important to me in the short run than Hellkite or Conscripts, especially if I'm about to swing for critical.
But like I said, I think it deserves its place in even the smaller lists. It's just not as important as the other 2 5-drops.
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That'd have to be Inferno Titan. My cube right now has 4 creatures that cost more than 4 mana in red: SGC, Conscripts, Thundermaw, and Titan. In order to bring in Kiki-Jiki, I have to either decide that I'm ok with having even more big creatures in red, or cut one of them. Maybe cutting one is the right decision, maybe cutting something else is right.
I haven't decided to cut Siege-Gang yet. We cut him for the draft tonight, but I'm not dead set that it's the right decision, which is why I started the thread to ask questions. After someone pointed out in my thread that I had a pretty top heavy red section, I was a little hesitant to keep adding more top end without cutting to. I'll give it some more thought with the points brought up here.
J
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Mogg War Marshal (Much cheaper but if you are abusing etb effects.....)
Staggershock (Only 2 shocks instead of 4)
Mizzium Mortors (Doesn't go to the face)
Keldon Champion (4 mana bolt)
Inferno Titan (6 mana is getting a lot bigger than 5 in the R/x cube decks I am making lately, ends up in a lot of X/r decks unlike SCG... might just be me)
I don't really consider 3 1/1 tokens a reasonable threat if it gets 1 for 1ed. It's nice that you don't lose everything, but rarely something that's going to turn the game in my favor.
The point, though, isn't that SGC isn't a good card. I've never tried to argue that. I'm just trying to figure out how many 5 drops red really needs. At 450, I'm not sure I want to be spending 4 slots on 5drops. And if you accept the design goal of including splinter twin combo, which pretty much necessitates including kikijiki and zealous conscripts, then you're left with two decisions
1) Cut SGC or Thundermaw Hellkite
2) Run four 5drops in red.
Since I'm underwhelmed by the premise of running four 5drops, I figured I'd start the discussion about whether SGC still held his own against cards like Thundermaw. And that's why I'm considering cutting him. Telling me all the good things he does doesn't change my mind: I like the card. I'm far more interested in hearing why he's still better than Thundermaw Hellkite, a card that I think fits into what my average red deck wants to do far more often.
At this point I've heard a lot of reasoning in both directions, I'm still fairly undecided, and SGC hasn't yet been cut. I don't know that there's a right answer, but there sure is a lot of top end in a supposed aggro color right now.
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Chris, people aren't cutting it for being bad. They are cutting it because they think it might be the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th best 5 cost red creature in cube, so if you are going to argue against cutting it, argue against that (or argue that they should run all of them at any size). Talking about non marginal value is next to useless for this decision, because all the cards in the mix are great, and it's not like anyone is unaware of what SGC can do.
Swarming through is also evasion compared to flying. Throwing shocks for the last bit of damage is good too, especially when the board has stalled. I'd rather draw siege-gang than thundermaw.
Seems like you have your mind set tho, and it appears to me that the best arguments have been laid out already, so I'm not sure what other argument you are waiting to hear to change your opinion.
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I'm intrigued by this. On a stalled board, you'd rather have Siege Gang. I'm assuming here that you don't have 9 mana, so the best you can do the turn you play him (lets say 7-8 mana available) is one shock. Thundermaw, unless he dies to removal, is always getting through for 5 that first time, since he gets all blockers out of the way. I think it's hard to make blanket statements that SGC is better on a stalled board.
I don't have my mind made up. That's kinda the point. I'm still thinking it through, and I appreciate everyone's input. I'm also kinda wondering if anyone else was having similar thoughts.
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I am, though at this point I am not really pressed on cutting any of them. It is certainly possible that he is the third best 5 drop in red, especially for a curve topper in aggro. I think his versatility will keep him in though, especially since we Winchester draft a good bit.
As for SGC, he's a pretty stellar card. I'd say he has the highest potential for upside out of the three red five drops, and his average performance is still good in the WCS: make 5/5 across 4 bodies with a built-in abuse mechanism. He only fails hard to Wrath, Earthquake and Pyroclasm effects, which is a reasonably narrow spectrum of removal. Red token effects are rare too and play great with Sarkhan Vol in aggro-midrange.
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