It's still 2 of the greatest effects in the game (Drawing a card and hard-countering) for 2 mana, 1 of which isn't even U. Yeah, it has a significant drawback, but still. If you're using your countermagic properly, the card you got rid of would have been way worse for you than the 2 drawn cards are going to be. Especially with the poor excuse for countermagic that's being printed in this era of M:tG, Arcane Denial has a permanent home in my cube.
Definitely already had this argument like a month ago on another thread so I am not going to go all out but.... Its still giving your opponent free cards, more cards than you are getting. Force of Will is the same thing pretty much you are down 1 card, but at least it's is free and can be cast for 5 with no drawback.
People who run Arcane Denial are going to defend it pretty hard due to results and what its done in the past. Can't argue against the perceived aura that this card presents. All I know is this would probably not make any of my decks unless I was quite desperate. Damnation is the better card in that pack.
my problem with the arguments against denial is they never adequately explain why the same effects in other cards are not bad. jace beleren gives your opponents cards, and yet it is excellent in the cube. path, tutors, etc all give your opponent the same amount of card advantage. why is -1 CD on other cards ok, and letting your opponent draw from jace is ok, but letting your opponent draw and getting -1 CD on denial is unacceptable? is it the combination of the two? why?
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
does anyone feel the need to say this about path to exile or vampiric tutor? because of the way the card is worded, i think people get hung up on the card disadvantage of arcane denial while ignoring or accepting the same -1 on other popular cube cards.
This should probably be an edit on the other post but...
Path to Exile: early game path is quite dangerous acceling your opponent is super rough and should be avoided. Late game its probably better than swords because they have all the mana they need at that point. Arcane Denial is the bad part of Path to Exile possibly manafixing your opponent early, or giving them bombs/getting rid of their dead draw's late. It is a much less defined resource that you are giving them. With path you know what you are giving them, with Arcane Denial, its dont draw good bro.
Don't compare tutoring for any card at instant speed to Arcane Denial. Just dont.
Jace Beleren usually draws 1-3 cards and/or nets you life, it can also draw you two, then you both draw 1 sustaining the effect and increasing its board presence then draws you two more. Who plays Jace and says both people draw?...I want to play with those people.
We can argue this one until I am blue in the face and I won't be able to change anyones opinion so I wont. Would you run this?
Bad Counterspell
UU - Instant
Counter target spell. Its controller draws a card.
I would not like it
in a house.
I would not like it
with a mouse.
I would not want it
here or there.
I would not want it
anywhere.
I do not like bad counterspells and...uh ham
I do not like them, Sam-I-am.
I don't care that you are drawing two cards next turn while I am only drawing one. You just lost your dragon, tinker, counterwar, planeswalker, chance at removing my threat, or anything else because I payed 1U. Half the time you waited until you had 3 open just incase it was Mana Leak. Gotcha! Have fun drawing a land and a mana dork or whatever.
1. Isamaru - Everything looks pretty even power-wise and I love white weenie
2. Black Vise - This fits the white weenie plan pretty well
3. Soltari Priest - And it gets better...
4. Windswept Heath (honorable mention to Mana Leak) - This should let me splash something later or just be awesome for landfall guys
5. White Knight (honorable mention to Cloudgoat Ranger, but I think we still need some more early drops; we can find a finisher later)
6. Tarmogoyf - And there's something to splash for!
7. Accorder Paladin - Maybe too many two drops. Can you have too many two drops?
8. Tundra (honorable mention to Viridian Zealot) - Open up Bant colors. In my dreams the mana leak tables and I look brilliant. Otherwise, maybe I can get the arcane denial or some other splashable counter. Card disadvantage matters less when you're eating their head and shut down a damnation...
I'm pretty happy with that list so far. A bunch of two drops, but that's a good start for a white weenie deck. Need a couple more one drops, a nice piece of equipment or two, and then some 3-4's to fill out the curve, but that seems pretty doable later on. Doesn't look like anyone else is in white-green from the goyf, accorder pally, and the white cards in pack 5, so I should be able to pick up some goodies next time around.
We can argue this one until I am blue in the face and I won't be able to change anyones opinion so I wont.
why does this conversation has to be so confrontational? i'm perfectly willing to entertain different views and i've changed my mind on plenty of cards after discussing them. i haven't been convinced by arguments against denial, but it's not because i'm stubborn or narrow minded. i haven't been convinced because the arguments haven't been convincing. if they were, i'd be happy to reevaluate the card and watch how it performs in my cube.
Arcane Denial is the bad part of Path to Exile possibly manafixing your opponent early, or giving them bombs/getting rid of their dead draw's late.
or drawing them exactly what they don't need. this argument sounds a little like the arguments about milling. what they draw is random, so there can't be any statistical +/- to it. certainly, card disadvantage is bad and letting your opponent draw even when it's card parity is a drawback. but not because the draw is always going to be what they need.
i take your point about path to exile being consistent in its drawback.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
This card shines in any aggresive/tempo deck, period. The drawback is negligible because more than likely those extra cards aren't ever going to effect the game. The card should be acting as a Time Walk if played correctly. Obviously if I'm not going to counter some random thing that doesn't effect my board state, but if I AD your ***, well then I essentially countered your out, which is well worth you getting two cards (and me getting another card to fuel the onslaught). Does AD belong in every single deck? It probably wouldn't make a solid or two color blue deck because we have stronger counters with Double Blue available to us and CA is important in the Control matchup. But midrange and aggro, chh sign me up please.
This card shines in any aggresive/tempo deck, period. The drawback is negligible because more than likely those extra cards aren't ever going to effect the game. The card should be acting as a Time Walk if played correctly. Obviously if I'm not going to counter some random thing that doesn't effect my board state, but if I AD your ***, well then I essentially countered your out, which is well worth you getting two cards (and me getting another card to fuel the onslaught). Does AD belong in every single deck? It probably wouldn't make a solid or two color blue deck because we have stronger counters with Double Blue available to us and CA is important in the Control matchup. But midrange and aggro, chh sign me up please.
Absolutely this. My problem with much of what's brought against Denial is that many seem to assume that you want to counter any and every card your opponent throws at you, when that simply isn't ever the case. Yeah, if I trump your dork with my AD, I'm probably getting the worse deal, but that's because I screwed up. That isn't a reflection on the card.
Card advantage is not everything, and a card that can be splashed in the 2 mana slot and answers nearly every card in the cube is worth the -1 CA drawback.
in my opinion, "unfun" effects are really just effects a player doesn't understand how to use or how to beat. i'd rather understand (and play with others who understand) how to use and beat powerful effects than simplify the cube so no one has to.
For all I know, you are Kai Budde and for all you know I'm John Finkel. It doesn't matter. What matters is your logical argument for or against the card in question.
why does this conversation has to be so confrontational? i'm perfectly willing to entertain different views and i've changed my mind on plenty of cards after discussing them. i haven't been convinced by arguments against denial, but it's not because i'm stubborn or narrow minded. i haven't been convinced because the arguments haven't been convincing. if they were, i'd be happy to reevaluate the card and watch how it performs in my cube.
Ok fine lets do this. I am not sleeping anymore and have time available. As long as I dont write out 5 paragraphs and the response is taking 1-2 sentences and refuting 5% of what is written.
why not? what's the point of even posting something like this when it doesn't further the discussion at all?
Arcane Denial falls into the category of cards that some people like and will not comprehend why it's simply...not a good card. The mechanics and logic that drive the card are plain as day. I saw the same thing when arguing about Impulse and why it is only good in certain situations but that doesn't matter to some people.
I get that its a hard counterspell for 1U, I really do. I can think of a ton of scenario's where Arcane Denial does what it does and wins the game for you. That's just human nature when thinking about such things. You have to analyze what the card actually does. It gives your opponent more options, more resources to work with.
If your opponent only has 1 out in their deck to this board state and you have AD at the ready, good job you are going to win. Hell if they never draw that card you were going to win anyways. What if you are behind? Here draw some extra cards? Its like bending over and asking them to be gentle.
Card's that give your opponent choices are usually subpar. Browbeat for example. Hugely popular casual card. My local card store can't keep this thing in stock, it was even printed as an FMN promo within the last 2 years. This card is bad. I understand it can be 5 damage for 3 mana, or 3 cards for 3 mana, but it usually does what is most beneficial for the opponent.
If you cast Browbeat when you are already winning you are probably still going to win no matter what option they give you. If you are losing this card will NOT dig you out and save you smiting your enemies to the ground. If the game is close, well then so be it. You can maybe draw, maybe take 5, whatever your opponent chooses.
So responding to the inevitable "but Browbeat is not Arcane Denial"
post...I know. The example is not a strict 1:1 comparison, it is used to gauge and define card's roles in a deck. You just get less defined options with AD. You counter their current spell. You draw 1 card and your opponent draw's two. You now both receive less strictly defined resources.
This is where the issue happens. The hard counterspell for 1U is fantastic. It is a strong effect and I am sure no one will disagree. Then you now get the bonus resources. The difficult part occurs where they may be good cards, they may be bad cards.
What if your deck is incredibly equipped to deal with the opponent's deck? A good matchup? Sweet. I am sure that over half the time even though you are only getting 50% of the cards that they are, it will be good for you because your deck trump's theirs. They probably do not have the right tool's to fight your deck so it doesn't matter if you give them cards.
Bad matchup? Your deck only has so many answers and their threats are invasive and powerful. Arcane Denial only delays the inevitable because you just gave them an extra card. AD can surely help you win games against these decks if you are ahead on the board and just need to delay them for a bit and try to bring the win but that is the dream scenario. In a world where their draw's are better than yours, giving them more cards is worse than awful.
Then we move onto the its just a counterspell arguement. Removal like path will save you from most creatures. Its effective at what it does and while it is card disadvantage too, its applications are narrow and
defined enough that you know what you are dealing with at all times. Arcane Denial is a bad top deck. It's an answer and while there are no wrong threat's, there are wrong answers.
AD will not save you from a dead on board situation, or dig you out of a hole. It is in essence a delaying tactic that will stem the tide and allow you to gain or maintain an advantage but will not bring you back from a failing board state. AD is a win more card.
unless you never use the +2 at any point, jace draws your opponent cards. my question is why is that ok for jace but bad for denial?
Play Jace, draw a card. Now it basically cycled. If they expend resources to kill it then you are up, or if they attack into it you net life plus maybe they have to sacrifice creatures on a bad attack to get in.
Net Cards +0
Draw a card next turn, Jace is at 1. At this point you are ahead and the player probably still needs to deal with your walker.
Net cards +1
How far ahead on the board are you? Is Jace going to die, is it beneficial to give them a card. If you are at 3 life against a red deck I probably would not let them draw unless you have a counter ready to go. Lets say you +2 Jace.
Net cards +2
Opponent Net cards +1
Next turn you draw again cause you are baller and can't lose at this point.
Net cards +3
Opponent Net Cards +1
Win target game.
How Jace compares to Arcane Denial's drawback...not even sure. At the absolute worst Jace cycles and probably gains you at least 2 life.
Jace is like Arcane Denial in the way that it probably will not dig you out of a failing board state. But Jace will not give your opponent cards if you do not want them to have them.
this is a pretty bad comparison since being splashable is one of the pros of denial. would i run
1U
counter target spell. its controller draws a card.
? yeah, i would. would i run
W
instant
exile target creature. its controller draws a card.
? yeah, i would run that, too.
If you are running Arcane Denial to be a a counterspell for late game bombs then you will already have UU available. The prohibitive costs are less restrictive the longer the game goes. Why aren't people running Vex? Same splashability but costs one more which should be fine for countering late game bombs. Because Vex is awful.
Fun trivia, I did run Vex in standard for a while. It was part of a milling Mesmeric Orb prison deck. It is so good when you cast Vex and your opponent doesn't draw a card on purpose.
or drawing them exactly what they don't need. this argument sounds a little like the arguments about milling. what they draw is random, so there can't be any statistical +/- to it. certainly, card disadvantage is bad and letting your opponent draw even when it's card parity is a drawback. but not because the draw is always going to be what they need.
i take your point about path to exile being consistent in its drawback.
The milling argument is valid for ...milling. Cards are going to the graveyard that they will probably never see so they might as well be going to the bottom of their deck. Drawing your opponent's extra cards is so not even close to milling the opponents cards. It is giving them options and you do not know what your opponent needs.
I knew someone who used to run Arcane Denial all the time way back in the day. I was always happy when he used it to counter my stuff. Almost always. As mentioned earlier there are certain situations were AD will win you games but if the board state is even, AD my spells all day long.
I love how a fun exercise of drafting eight picks became a discussion of Arcane Denial. You can never tell what's going to happen in your thread. I'm totally fine with it.
I love Arcane Denial for all the reasons Strange, Altaurus, and qq state. Yes, it is card disadvantage but the effect is strong enough to warrant it. You don't use it on the next spell to come along. You use it on a spell that would wreck you. Denialing Armageddon, Wildfire, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Sword of Fire and Ice, etc. is totally worth being down a card.
I love the different directions these picks have gone. I'll do this again over the weekend. In the meantime, I hope we get a few more drafters.
Yup. But Arcane Denial isn't. Two things wrong with that comparison. With Vex, your opponent gets the card immediately. That's not the case with Denial. They have to wait until your turn to draw. So when you counter their "late game cards" with it, they can just replay the cards they draw. They can't do that with Arcane Denial. Secondly, you're comparing a card that counters for 2U to a card that counters for 1U. That's night and day different. Only needing to keep 2 mana open (only 1 being blue) is the advantage that Denial has. No other counterspell in the game can hard-counter any spell for 1U. I'm sorry if you don't identify the inerrant value in the spell, but the rest of us can. The card disadvantage arguments are silly, because a lot of card disadvantage cards are cubeworthy. Tempo recovery and splashability have value. Sorry you don't agree.
Quote from Chimaera »
We can argue this one until I am blue in the face and I won't be able to change anyones opinion
Can you guess why? I'll give you three guesses, but you'll really only need one.
AD will not save you from a dead on board situation, or dig you out of a hole. It is in essence a delaying tactic that will stem the tide and allow you to gain or maintain an advantage but will not bring you back from a failing board state. AD is a win more card.
NO counter magic will save you from those situations, except maybe Mana Drain, and that's only sometimes. This isn't a specific failing of Arcane Denial.
Nothing I read really convinces me that I shouldn't be running Arcane Denial. I think people get freaked out more by the "opponent draws 2" phrase than anything else. The disadvantage is static, and we all know this, but the idea of your opponent drawing two cards, for any reason, frightens people. However, if you're using Arcane Denial correctly, those extra cards shouldn't often matter.
It all depends if you want to trade splashability for CA. In most decks, I'm fine with that. If I'm aggro/midrange, I just need to stave off your huge spell that will turn the tide of the game. That where the specifc mana cost of AD is important. If I'm dedicated control, then of course there are better counters available, and I'm sure I drafted them. And I'm certainly going to use those first before Arcane Denial. That doesn't change the fact I still have an extra counter in my deck in AD, just in case I need it.
Finally, Vex is bad because it costs 3, not because it's -1 CA.
Finally, Vex is bad because it costs 3, not because it's -1 CA.
Vex is bad because it costs 3 and it gives them a card.
I am trying not to compare because people snap associate card X with card Y then try to refute a 1000 word post based on that fact no matter how much additional content was provided. Its really hard to try to relay a certain thing or idea without comparing cards. I dont think Vex = Arcane Denial. But they do similar things, since people dismiss Vex so fast shows that if anything they give AD too much credit.
Incinerate is 1 more mana than a Lightning Bolt and people seem to take this comparison fine. Sure there is an additional clause on Incinerate but whatever. As a community I think creatures, lands and removal spells are pretty well judged and understood why one is better than the other. Utility spells and planeswalkers not so much.
Yes almost every piece of counter magic will not regain a losing board state, that is why each spell needs to be judged as harshly as it is. A 5 mana removal spell is still a removal spell and can recover from losing to bad board, but a 5 mana counterspell with no alternative costs is always bad. We dont run Spelljack in cube. Formats do blend together and relationships can be relayed between limited with X pool and limited with Y pool. But people maintain that Blue is different than Yellow and there is no relationship, BURN the witch.
There are certain cards that I just will not be able to make people reanalyze properly. Maybe If I was Kai Budde or Patrick Chapan I could sway some people but I am not. I am just some random dude.
Cards that I think are terrible and not cube worthy (and pretty much anyone in my city will back up) and will not be able to convince forum goers to remove are:
1 - Aftershock
2 - Arcane Denial
3 - Impulse
Each one of these cards probably deserve their own thread.
I am not a professional player or excel in writing and relaying magic theory but sometimes you need to be.
Edit: Wasn't there an argument where someone wanted to run Teferi's Isle even though its clearly one of the worst lands ever printed? You cant reason with the close minded.
Cards that I think are terrible and not cube worthy (and pretty much anyone in my city will back up) and will not be able to convince forum goers to remove are:
1 - Aftershock
2 - Arcane Denial
3 - Impulse
Each one of these cards probably deserve their own thread.
I am one of those who will never ever remove one of those cards. Aftershock is versatile and does things red can always use.
Arcane Denial is a hard counter for 1U:o. Nuff said.
Impulse is great card selection and makes your deck smaller, which increases the quality of your deck.
Arcane Denial and Impulse were constructed staples for years. This doesn't mean they are automatically cube staples, but does mean that they are quite powerfull. They make blue faster, which is very important for a generally slower colour.
But we won't change your mind and you won't change ours. But maybe other people will compare our arguments and make an informed choice.
There are certain cards that I just will not be able to make people reanalyze properly. Maybe If I was Kai Budde or Patrick Chapan I could sway some people but I am not. I am just some random dude.
Cards that I think are terrible and not cube worthy (and pretty much anyone in my city will back up) and will not be able to convince forum goers to remove are:
1 - Aftershock
2 - Arcane Denial
3 - Impulse
Each one of these cards probably deserve their own thread.
I am not a professional player or excel in writing and relaying magic theory but sometimes you need to be.
You are starting to sound really arrogant. You really think that if numerous experienced cubists on this forum like a card and you don't that you are the only one evaluating the card properly? Maybe you are the one who should reanalyze those cards and see why so many people like them. This also has nothing to do with you being a professional player or not. Kai Budde could walk up to me and tell me Arcane Denial is garbage to my face and I would. not. give. a rat's. ass. ASFAIK, he is not a cube expert and even if he was it's just his opinion. For all I know, you are Kai Budde and for all you know I'm John Finkel. It doesn't matter. What matters is your logical argument for or against the card in question. Your argument fixates on the card disadvantage. The arguments of those who like the card see that it's the only 1U card that counters any spell.
Look, I was skeptical of Arcane Denial. I was surprised to see it in other folks' lists. And then I tried it. It worked really well at stopping that devastaing spell from resolving. The card disadvantage hasn't seemed to matter at all. It's been great and I can't foresee cutting it. You are totally entitled to hate the card and not run the card. However, it smacks of arrogance to say that you are one of the very few people evaluating the card correctly. It makes me wonder if you've tested the card at all.
Formats do blend together and relationships can be relayed between limited with X pool and limited with Y pool. But people maintain that Blue is different than Yellow and there is no relationship, BURN the witch.
I don't get how people only use Arcane Denial for late game bombs?
Arcane Denial counters for me counters any card that needs countering. That might well be that Upheaval or Armageddon, but that could as well be that turn two Soltari Monk. it depends on your hand and the matchup. But often countering earlier threats ends up saving you a lot of trouble.
On top of that don't forget Arcane Denial als draws you a card, which means you could draw that land you needed or that Man'oWar to keep your tempo going. You draw the card on your turn so you have the tempo advantage to work with. It doesn't just give your opponent two cards, if it did that it would have to almost free to be playable.
I have tried to civilly explain why Arcane Denial is not cube worthy. It does 1 thing very well but the ramifications and context in which the card is played is what makes it not a good card.
I am on the defensive trying to explain why its bad, but the only examples I hear quoted why its good are vague idea where you counter their turn 4 wrath or some game breaking spell then you basically win. The opponent's deck is good also full of good cube cards. AD prolongs the game and gives them more cards to beat you with. It just doesn't compute, I dont see how it does. I have played against the card in the past and usually fist pump when my stuff is Denial'd. I am sure it has ended games on the spot but how many of those times would Cancel have not done the same?...
Yes cards were run in constructed in the past but there are several things to make note. What type of format was the card in? Cube is your own personal format sandbox. What other options were available in that format? You can include any number of various counters in cube, scale any archetype. What was the deck trying to accomplish? If its an old combo deck then Impulse is probably one of the best cards because it digs for an essential piece. And lastly maybe the deck was bad? Old deck lists tended to be piles of unoptimized jank. That's how magic was back then. No internet, no broad sweeping optimizing of a list.
I understand that I can come off as arrogant sometimes. That happens when I write things, so I usually reread and revise thing 6 times. The faster I respond and the more I write the higher likelihood this will occur, I dont...usually mean it. I am more than willing to agree to disagree at this point and try my best not to bring up these 3 cards but I will probably unconsciously do it again at a later time.
Aside: I also dont mean that you guys cant evaluate cards properly. But I do recognise that alot of people in the forum evaluate and base their decisions on what is good and what to include on certain highly popular trend setting cubes. I can do my best to relay my opinion but a lot of people will not see it, see these cards in the popular cubes and assume that is the correct decision. Not everyone, but it happens. People tend to remember when X card won you the game. Its human nature, they dont remember then it lost you the game, especially when its not a direct relation.
In Addition: Just ignore the formats comment. It was more in relation to this card is good in X so it should be good in cube. That is true in more ways than is given credit, but should obviously taken with a grain of salt. If an optimized zoo Legacy deck starts running a card you cut, or think is bad, it should probably be reconsidered or at least analyzed whether it is good, or just a format depending card. It was a comment out of context from a different thing.
There are certain cards that I just will not be able to make people reanalyze properly. Maybe If I was Kai Budde or Patrick Chapan I could sway some people but I am not. I am just some random dude.
Cards that I think are terrible and not cube worthy (and pretty much anyone in my city will back up) and will not be able to convince forum goers to remove are:
1 - Aftershock
2 - Arcane Denial
3 - Impulse
None of those professional players would be able to convince me that any of those three cards are bad in the cube either. You know why? Because they're NOT bad in the cube.
Everyone in your city will back you up? That's the silliest thing I've ever heard. That doesn't prove that those cards are bad... if anything, it just shows that people in your city can't properly evaluate cards for the cube.
All three of those cards are outstanding cube cards that I consider staples. Not because I can't evaluate the cards, but because after extensive playtesting with all of them, they've proven themselves to be great for all the reasons that have been expressed about them time and time again.
Quote from Chimaera »
I am not a professional player or excel in writing and relaying magic theory but sometimes you need to be.
It wouldn't matter how you (or anybody) represented your case. The fact is, the argument to convince me that Arcane Denial is bad in the cube doesn't exist. You know why? Because it's not.
Perhaps it's not everybody else that can't properly evaluate the card, but maybe it's just you that can't. And apparently, your entire city.
Quote from Chimaera »
It does 1 thing very well but the ramifications and context in which the card is played is what makes it not a good card.
I know you think this, but it's simply untrue. The drawbacks don't render the card uncubeworthy. That's just your opinion. We disagree, and our arguments in support of the card are just as valid as your argument in its opposition.
The problem here, is that it's proven in practice to be a powerful card, and valuable to the cube. Not theory, not on paper, but consistently good in practice. That means more than your opinion.
Quote from Chimaera »
If an optimized zoo Legacy deck starts running a card you cut, or think is bad, it should probably be reconsidered
Nope. If I cut a card from the cube, it's because it wasn't good enough for the cube. Some high level Legacy player using it in a Legacy deck isn't going to convince me to put it back in the cube, because that correlation is irrelevant.
Arcane Denial is FAR from the best counter around, no one is disputing this. You're right, any counter should do, if mana cost isn't a factor. If I have 1UU up, sure, Cancel would be fine; preferred even. But I DON'T always have that luxury. Sometimes I need a hard counter that costs 1U. In fact, Arcane Denial is the ONLY card in the game that will unconditionally counter any spell for that specific cost. This is its inherent power. Usually when things are undercosted, they have a draw back. Force of Will, Vampiric Tutor, Aftershock, and Thoughseize are all good examples.
If you feel like the power and flexibility of AD isn't worth -1 CA, that's fine. But that doesn't make it a bad card. I, along with several others here it seems, have had similar experiences where the power outweighs the disadvantage. It's interesting that you have not seen the same thing. Do you typically go on to win the game when your opponent plays AD? I'd be interested to hear, simply because that's not yet happened to anyone in my cube group...
I don't get how people only use Arcane Denial for late game bombs?
Actually, I just use those situations as the best examples of how it works. In reality, I'll use Arcane Denial whenever I need to. And I won't feel bad about it.
Chimaera, it is exactly because of the ramifications and context that I think Arcane Denial is great. It counters any spell for 1U and has a negligible drawback. Yes, I think that for it's flexibility and effectiveness, -1 card advantage is a negligible drawback. Playing it and having it played against me time after time, I can tell you that drawback has never seemed to really matter. I sincerely think you and your city need to test it more.
On paper Arcane Denial is awful. In fact, in the context of modern constructed formats, Arcane Denial is terrible. However, in a Limited environment, it is pretty good. Lets look at it's upsides:
+ It is splashable (being that it is 1U).
+ It is versatile (it is less narrow than either Negate or Remove Soul).
+ When used properly (to, say, counter a bomb) the card disadvantage is negligible (how many bombs are they playing in Limited?).
- Card disadvantage (this can be negated by card quality).
I can see not liking the card, but to call it terrible? That is almost as bad as calling Force of Will bad because it will almost always end up being card disadvantage with regards to the caster.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
If you feel like the power and flexibility of AD isn't worth -1 CA, that's fine. But that doesn't make it a bad card. I, along with several others here it seems, have had similar experiences where the power outweighs the disadvantage.
There are those that are in the camp where the advantages outweigh the drawbacks, and those that are in the camp that think they don't. I'm in the first group, and you're in the latter. There's no real right or wrong, it's just differing opinions. If you don't like it, you don't have to cube with it. That's the great thing about this format! But it's too late to convince me that it sucks, because it's already proven itself to me that it doesn't.
For all I know, you are Kai Budde and for all you know I'm John Finkel. It doesn't matter. What matters is your logical argument for or against the card in question.
in my opinion, "unfun" effects are really just effects a player doesn't understand how to use or how to beat. i'd rather understand (and play with others who understand) how to use and beat powerful effects than simplify the cube so no one has to.
For all I know, you are Kai Budde and for all you know I'm John Finkel. It doesn't matter. What matters is your logical argument for or against the card in question.
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Definitely already had this argument like a month ago on another thread so I am not going to go all out but.... Its still giving your opponent free cards, more cards than you are getting. Force of Will is the same thing pretty much you are down 1 card, but at least it's is free and can be cast for 5 with no drawback.
People who run Arcane Denial are going to defend it pretty hard due to results and what its done in the past. Can't argue against the perceived aura that this card presents. All I know is this would probably not make any of my decks unless I was quite desperate. Damnation is the better card in that pack.
Chimaera's 540 Card Depowered Cube
This should probably be an edit on the other post but...
Path to Exile: early game path is quite dangerous acceling your opponent is super rough and should be avoided. Late game its probably better than swords because they have all the mana they need at that point. Arcane Denial is the bad part of Path to Exile possibly manafixing your opponent early, or giving them bombs/getting rid of their dead draw's late. It is a much less defined resource that you are giving them. With path you know what you are giving them, with Arcane Denial, its dont draw good bro.
Don't compare tutoring for any card at instant speed to Arcane Denial. Just dont.
Jace Beleren usually draws 1-3 cards and/or nets you life, it can also draw you two, then you both draw 1 sustaining the effect and increasing its board presence then draws you two more. Who plays Jace and says both people draw?...I want to play with those people.
We can argue this one until I am blue in the face and I won't be able to change anyones opinion so I wont. Would you run this?
Bad Counterspell
UU - Instant
Counter target spell. Its controller draws a card.
I would not like it
in a house.
I would not like it
with a mouse.
I would not want it
here or there.
I would not want it
anywhere.
I do not like bad counterspells and...uh ham
I do not like them, Sam-I-am.
I am going to sleep, I am tired.
Chimaera's 540 Card Depowered Cube
I don't care that you are drawing two cards next turn while I am only drawing one. You just lost your dragon, tinker, counterwar, planeswalker, chance at removing my threat, or anything else because I payed 1U. Half the time you waited until you had 3 open just incase it was Mana Leak. Gotcha! Have fun drawing a land and a mana dork or whatever.
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Tundra
1. Isamaru - Everything looks pretty even power-wise and I love white weenie
2. Black Vise - This fits the white weenie plan pretty well
3. Soltari Priest - And it gets better...
4. Windswept Heath (honorable mention to Mana Leak) - This should let me splash something later or just be awesome for landfall guys
5. White Knight (honorable mention to Cloudgoat Ranger, but I think we still need some more early drops; we can find a finisher later)
6. Tarmogoyf - And there's something to splash for!
7. Accorder Paladin - Maybe too many two drops. Can you have too many two drops?
8. Tundra (honorable mention to Viridian Zealot) - Open up Bant colors. In my dreams the mana leak tables and I look brilliant. Otherwise, maybe I can get the arcane denial or some other splashable counter. Card disadvantage matters less when you're eating their head and shut down a damnation...
I'm pretty happy with that list so far. A bunch of two drops, but that's a good start for a white weenie deck. Need a couple more one drops, a nice piece of equipment or two, and then some 3-4's to fill out the curve, but that seems pretty doable later on. Doesn't look like anyone else is in white-green from the goyf, accorder pally, and the white cards in pack 5, so I should be able to pick up some goodies next time around.
why does this conversation has to be so confrontational? i'm perfectly willing to entertain different views and i've changed my mind on plenty of cards after discussing them. i haven't been convinced by arguments against denial, but it's not because i'm stubborn or narrow minded. i haven't been convinced because the arguments haven't been convincing. if they were, i'd be happy to reevaluate the card and watch how it performs in my cube.
why not? what's the point of even posting something like this when it doesn't further the discussion at all?
unless you never use the +2 at any point, jace draws your opponent cards. my question is why is that ok for jace but bad for denial?
this is a pretty bad comparison since being splashable is one of the pros of denial. would i run
1U
counter target spell. its controller draws a card.
? yeah, i would. would i run
W
instant
exile target creature. its controller draws a card.
? yeah, i would run that, too.
or drawing them exactly what they don't need. this argument sounds a little like the arguments about milling. what they draw is random, so there can't be any statistical +/- to it. certainly, card disadvantage is bad and letting your opponent draw even when it's card parity is a drawback. but not because the draw is always going to be what they need.
i take your point about path to exile being consistent in its drawback.
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Absolutely this. My problem with much of what's brought against Denial is that many seem to assume that you want to counter any and every card your opponent throws at you, when that simply isn't ever the case. Yeah, if I trump your dork with my AD, I'm probably getting the worse deal, but that's because I screwed up. That isn't a reflection on the card.
Card advantage is not everything, and a card that can be splashed in the 2 mana slot and answers nearly every card in the cube is worth the -1 CA drawback.
Ok fine lets do this. I am not sleeping anymore and have time available. As long as I dont write out 5 paragraphs and the response is taking 1-2 sentences and refuting 5% of what is written.
Arcane Denial falls into the category of cards that some people like and will not comprehend why it's simply...not a good card. The mechanics and logic that drive the card are plain as day. I saw the same thing when arguing about Impulse and why it is only good in certain situations but that doesn't matter to some people.
I get that its a hard counterspell for 1U, I really do. I can think of a ton of scenario's where Arcane Denial does what it does and wins the game for you. That's just human nature when thinking about such things. You have to analyze what the card actually does. It gives your opponent more options, more resources to work with.
If your opponent only has 1 out in their deck to this board state and you have AD at the ready, good job you are going to win. Hell if they never draw that card you were going to win anyways. What if you are behind? Here draw some extra cards? Its like bending over and asking them to be gentle.
Card's that give your opponent choices are usually subpar. Browbeat for example. Hugely popular casual card. My local card store can't keep this thing in stock, it was even printed as an FMN promo within the last 2 years. This card is bad. I understand it can be 5 damage for 3 mana, or 3 cards for 3 mana, but it usually does what is most beneficial for the opponent.
If you cast Browbeat when you are already winning you are probably still going to win no matter what option they give you. If you are losing this card will NOT dig you out and save you smiting your enemies to the ground. If the game is close, well then so be it. You can maybe draw, maybe take 5, whatever your opponent chooses.
So responding to the inevitable "but Browbeat is not Arcane Denial"
post...I know. The example is not a strict 1:1 comparison, it is used to gauge and define card's roles in a deck. You just get less defined options with AD. You counter their current spell. You draw 1 card and your opponent draw's two. You now both receive less strictly defined resources.
This is where the issue happens. The hard counterspell for 1U is fantastic. It is a strong effect and I am sure no one will disagree. Then you now get the bonus resources. The difficult part occurs where they may be good cards, they may be bad cards.
What if your deck is incredibly equipped to deal with the opponent's deck? A good matchup? Sweet. I am sure that over half the time even though you are only getting 50% of the cards that they are, it will be good for you because your deck trump's theirs. They probably do not have the right tool's to fight your deck so it doesn't matter if you give them cards.
Bad matchup? Your deck only has so many answers and their threats are invasive and powerful. Arcane Denial only delays the inevitable because you just gave them an extra card. AD can surely help you win games against these decks if you are ahead on the board and just need to delay them for a bit and try to bring the win but that is the dream scenario. In a world where their draw's are better than yours, giving them more cards is worse than awful.
Then we move onto the its just a counterspell arguement. Removal like path will save you from most creatures. Its effective at what it does and while it is card disadvantage too, its applications are narrow and
defined enough that you know what you are dealing with at all times. Arcane Denial is a bad top deck. It's an answer and while there are no wrong threat's, there are wrong answers.
AD will not save you from a dead on board situation, or dig you out of a hole. It is in essence a delaying tactic that will stem the tide and allow you to gain or maintain an advantage but will not bring you back from a failing board state. AD is a win more card.
Play Jace, draw a card. Now it basically cycled. If they expend resources to kill it then you are up, or if they attack into it you net life plus maybe they have to sacrifice creatures on a bad attack to get in.
Net Cards +0
Draw a card next turn, Jace is at 1. At this point you are ahead and the player probably still needs to deal with your walker.
Net cards +1
How far ahead on the board are you? Is Jace going to die, is it beneficial to give them a card. If you are at 3 life against a red deck I probably would not let them draw unless you have a counter ready to go. Lets say you +2 Jace.
Net cards +2
Opponent Net cards +1
Next turn you draw again cause you are baller and can't lose at this point.
Net cards +3
Opponent Net Cards +1
Win target game.
How Jace compares to Arcane Denial's drawback...not even sure. At the absolute worst Jace cycles and probably gains you at least 2 life.
Jace is like Arcane Denial in the way that it probably will not dig you out of a failing board state. But Jace will not give your opponent cards if you do not want them to have them.
If you are running Arcane Denial to be a a counterspell for late game bombs then you will already have UU available. The prohibitive costs are less restrictive the longer the game goes. Why aren't people running Vex? Same splashability but costs one more which should be fine for countering late game bombs. Because Vex is awful.
Fun trivia, I did run Vex in standard for a while. It was part of a milling Mesmeric Orb prison deck. It is so good when you cast Vex and your opponent doesn't draw a card on purpose.
The milling argument is valid for ...milling. Cards are going to the graveyard that they will probably never see so they might as well be going to the bottom of their deck. Drawing your opponent's extra cards is so not even close to milling the opponents cards. It is giving them options and you do not know what your opponent needs.
I knew someone who used to run Arcane Denial all the time way back in the day. I was always happy when he used it to counter my stuff. Almost always. As mentioned earlier there are certain situations were AD will win you games but if the board state is even, AD my spells all day long.
Chimaera's 540 Card Depowered Cube
I love Arcane Denial for all the reasons Strange, Altaurus, and qq state. Yes, it is card disadvantage but the effect is strong enough to warrant it. You don't use it on the next spell to come along. You use it on a spell that would wreck you. Denialing Armageddon, Wildfire, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Sword of Fire and Ice, etc. is totally worth being down a card.
I love the different directions these picks have gone. I'll do this again over the weekend. In the meantime, I hope we get a few more drafters.
Cheers,
rant
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Yup. But Arcane Denial isn't. Two things wrong with that comparison. With Vex, your opponent gets the card immediately. That's not the case with Denial. They have to wait until your turn to draw. So when you counter their "late game cards" with it, they can just replay the cards they draw. They can't do that with Arcane Denial. Secondly, you're comparing a card that counters for 2U to a card that counters for 1U. That's night and day different. Only needing to keep 2 mana open (only 1 being blue) is the advantage that Denial has. No other counterspell in the game can hard-counter any spell for 1U. I'm sorry if you don't identify the inerrant value in the spell, but the rest of us can. The card disadvantage arguments are silly, because a lot of card disadvantage cards are cubeworthy. Tempo recovery and splashability have value. Sorry you don't agree.
Can you guess why? I'll give you three guesses, but you'll really only need one.
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NO counter magic will save you from those situations, except maybe Mana Drain, and that's only sometimes. This isn't a specific failing of Arcane Denial.
Nothing I read really convinces me that I shouldn't be running Arcane Denial. I think people get freaked out more by the "opponent draws 2" phrase than anything else. The disadvantage is static, and we all know this, but the idea of your opponent drawing two cards, for any reason, frightens people. However, if you're using Arcane Denial correctly, those extra cards shouldn't often matter.
It all depends if you want to trade splashability for CA. In most decks, I'm fine with that. If I'm aggro/midrange, I just need to stave off your huge spell that will turn the tide of the game. That where the specifc mana cost of AD is important. If I'm dedicated control, then of course there are better counters available, and I'm sure I drafted them. And I'm certainly going to use those first before Arcane Denial. That doesn't change the fact I still have an extra counter in my deck in AD, just in case I need it.
Finally, Vex is bad because it costs 3, not because it's -1 CA.
Vex is bad because it costs 3 and it gives them a card.
I am trying not to compare because people snap associate card X with card Y then try to refute a 1000 word post based on that fact no matter how much additional content was provided. Its really hard to try to relay a certain thing or idea without comparing cards. I dont think Vex = Arcane Denial. But they do similar things, since people dismiss Vex so fast shows that if anything they give AD too much credit.
Incinerate is 1 more mana than a Lightning Bolt and people seem to take this comparison fine. Sure there is an additional clause on Incinerate but whatever. As a community I think creatures, lands and removal spells are pretty well judged and understood why one is better than the other. Utility spells and planeswalkers not so much.
Yes almost every piece of counter magic will not regain a losing board state, that is why each spell needs to be judged as harshly as it is. A 5 mana removal spell is still a removal spell and can recover from losing to bad board, but a 5 mana counterspell with no alternative costs is always bad. We dont run Spelljack in cube. Formats do blend together and relationships can be relayed between limited with X pool and limited with Y pool. But people maintain that Blue is different than Yellow and there is no relationship, BURN the witch.
There are certain cards that I just will not be able to make people reanalyze properly. Maybe If I was Kai Budde or Patrick Chapan I could sway some people but I am not. I am just some random dude.
Cards that I think are terrible and not cube worthy (and pretty much anyone in my city will back up) and will not be able to convince forum goers to remove are:
1 - Aftershock
2 - Arcane Denial
3 - Impulse
Each one of these cards probably deserve their own thread.
I am not a professional player or excel in writing and relaying magic theory but sometimes you need to be.
Edit: Wasn't there an argument where someone wanted to run Teferi's Isle even though its clearly one of the worst lands ever printed? You cant reason with the close minded.
Chimaera's 540 Card Depowered Cube
I am one of those who will never ever remove one of those cards. Aftershock is versatile and does things red can always use.
Arcane Denial is a hard counter for 1U:o. Nuff said.
Impulse is great card selection and makes your deck smaller, which increases the quality of your deck.
Arcane Denial and Impulse were constructed staples for years. This doesn't mean they are automatically cube staples, but does mean that they are quite powerfull. They make blue faster, which is very important for a generally slower colour.
But we won't change your mind and you won't change ours. But maybe other people will compare our arguments and make an informed choice.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
You are starting to sound really arrogant. You really think that if numerous experienced cubists on this forum like a card and you don't that you are the only one evaluating the card properly? Maybe you are the one who should reanalyze those cards and see why so many people like them. This also has nothing to do with you being a professional player or not. Kai Budde could walk up to me and tell me Arcane Denial is garbage to my face and I would. not. give. a rat's. ass. ASFAIK, he is not a cube expert and even if he was it's just his opinion. For all I know, you are Kai Budde and for all you know I'm John Finkel. It doesn't matter. What matters is your logical argument for or against the card in question. Your argument fixates on the card disadvantage. The arguments of those who like the card see that it's the only 1U card that counters any spell.
Look, I was skeptical of Arcane Denial. I was surprised to see it in other folks' lists. And then I tried it. It worked really well at stopping that devastaing spell from resolving. The card disadvantage hasn't seemed to matter at all. It's been great and I can't foresee cutting it. You are totally entitled to hate the card and not run the card. However, it smacks of arrogance to say that you are one of the very few people evaluating the card correctly. It makes me wonder if you've tested the card at all.
And I have no idea what you are saying here.
Cheers,
rant
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Arcane Denial counters for me counters any card that needs countering. That might well be that Upheaval or Armageddon, but that could as well be that turn two Soltari Monk. it depends on your hand and the matchup. But often countering earlier threats ends up saving you a lot of trouble.
On top of that don't forget Arcane Denial als draws you a card, which means you could draw that land you needed or that Man'oWar to keep your tempo going. You draw the card on your turn so you have the tempo advantage to work with. It doesn't just give your opponent two cards, if it did that it would have to almost free to be playable.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
I am on the defensive trying to explain why its bad, but the only examples I hear quoted why its good are vague idea where you counter their turn 4 wrath or some game breaking spell then you basically win. The opponent's deck is good also full of good cube cards. AD prolongs the game and gives them more cards to beat you with. It just doesn't compute, I dont see how it does. I have played against the card in the past and usually fist pump when my stuff is Denial'd. I am sure it has ended games on the spot but how many of those times would Cancel have not done the same?...
Yes cards were run in constructed in the past but there are several things to make note. What type of format was the card in? Cube is your own personal format sandbox. What other options were available in that format? You can include any number of various counters in cube, scale any archetype. What was the deck trying to accomplish? If its an old combo deck then Impulse is probably one of the best cards because it digs for an essential piece. And lastly maybe the deck was bad? Old deck lists tended to be piles of unoptimized jank. That's how magic was back then. No internet, no broad sweeping optimizing of a list.
I understand that I can come off as arrogant sometimes. That happens when I write things, so I usually reread and revise thing 6 times. The faster I respond and the more I write the higher likelihood this will occur, I dont...usually mean it. I am more than willing to agree to disagree at this point and try my best not to bring up these 3 cards but I will probably unconsciously do it again at a later time.
Aside: I also dont mean that you guys cant evaluate cards properly. But I do recognise that alot of people in the forum evaluate and base their decisions on what is good and what to include on certain highly popular trend setting cubes. I can do my best to relay my opinion but a lot of people will not see it, see these cards in the popular cubes and assume that is the correct decision. Not everyone, but it happens. People tend to remember when X card won you the game. Its human nature, they dont remember then it lost you the game, especially when its not a direct relation.
In Addition: Just ignore the formats comment. It was more in relation to this card is good in X so it should be good in cube. That is true in more ways than is given credit, but should obviously taken with a grain of salt. If an optimized zoo Legacy deck starts running a card you cut, or think is bad, it should probably be reconsidered or at least analyzed whether it is good, or just a format depending card. It was a comment out of context from a different thing.
Chimaera's 540 Card Depowered Cube
None of those professional players would be able to convince me that any of those three cards are bad in the cube either. You know why? Because they're NOT bad in the cube.
Everyone in your city will back you up? That's the silliest thing I've ever heard. That doesn't prove that those cards are bad... if anything, it just shows that people in your city can't properly evaluate cards for the cube.
All three of those cards are outstanding cube cards that I consider staples. Not because I can't evaluate the cards, but because after extensive playtesting with all of them, they've proven themselves to be great for all the reasons that have been expressed about them time and time again.
It wouldn't matter how you (or anybody) represented your case. The fact is, the argument to convince me that Arcane Denial is bad in the cube doesn't exist. You know why? Because it's not.
Perhaps it's not everybody else that can't properly evaluate the card, but maybe it's just you that can't. And apparently, your entire city.
I know you think this, but it's simply untrue. The drawbacks don't render the card uncubeworthy. That's just your opinion. We disagree, and our arguments in support of the card are just as valid as your argument in its opposition.
The problem here, is that it's proven in practice to be a powerful card, and valuable to the cube. Not theory, not on paper, but consistently good in practice. That means more than your opinion.
Nope. If I cut a card from the cube, it's because it wasn't good enough for the cube. Some high level Legacy player using it in a Legacy deck isn't going to convince me to put it back in the cube, because that correlation is irrelevant.
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If you feel like the power and flexibility of AD isn't worth -1 CA, that's fine. But that doesn't make it a bad card. I, along with several others here it seems, have had similar experiences where the power outweighs the disadvantage. It's interesting that you have not seen the same thing. Do you typically go on to win the game when your opponent plays AD? I'd be interested to hear, simply because that's not yet happened to anyone in my cube group...
Actually, I just use those situations as the best examples of how it works. In reality, I'll use Arcane Denial whenever I need to. And I won't feel bad about it.
Chimaera, it is exactly because of the ramifications and context that I think Arcane Denial is great. It counters any spell for 1U and has a negligible drawback. Yes, I think that for it's flexibility and effectiveness, -1 card advantage is a negligible drawback. Playing it and having it played against me time after time, I can tell you that drawback has never seemed to really matter. I sincerely think you and your city need to test it more.
Cheers,
rant
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+ It is splashable (being that it is 1U).
+ It is versatile (it is less narrow than either Negate or Remove Soul).
+ When used properly (to, say, counter a bomb) the card disadvantage is negligible (how many bombs are they playing in Limited?).
- Card disadvantage (this can be negated by card quality).
I can see not liking the card, but to call it terrible? That is almost as bad as calling Force of Will bad because it will almost always end up being card disadvantage with regards to the caster.
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
j/k man.
I think it was summed up here best:
There are those that are in the camp where the advantages outweigh the drawbacks, and those that are in the camp that think they don't. I'm in the first group, and you're in the latter. There's no real right or wrong, it's just differing opinions. If you don't like it, you don't have to cube with it. That's the great thing about this format! But it's too late to convince me that it sucks, because it's already proven itself to me that it doesn't.
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Okay, this is getting sigged.