Well I have plenty of burn spells that are better for red aggro decks aready, and very few that are dedicated for control I prefer to use the Pyroclasm because it fits the bill of what I need it for.
Also, I wouldn't add Fallout to any aggro deck I'm playing. Sweeping all my attackers off the board is not what I'm looking for in a card that goes into my own deck.
I'm gonna reveal my twisted priorities here. I like Fallout just fine, but I'd be extremely unlikely to remove Pyroclasm for it... because Pyroclasm is available textless and Fallout isn't.
I find that the two color decks are better. Consistency is key, and we have larger mono-color sections and a very small gold section (and lots of artifacts). Those three points are a key recipie for making great 2-color decks in the cube.
If I had less artifacts, smaller mono-color sections, more gold cards, and more 3+ color fixing lands, the 3+ color decks would be stronger. I've designed my cube with that in mind. We prefer to run consistent 2-color decks rather than splashing a 3rd or 4th color into every deck.
My cube plays similarly. Most of the time, I have 2-color decks, maybe a 3-color deck and that's how I want it to play out. I also have no vivids or tri-lands. Quite possibly, with a more aggro-ish cube, I dont think there is really time to cast Tooth and Nail or All Suns' Dawn, but I keep them in my cube so that I don't hinder those that want to build big mana decks.
My cube plays similarly. Most of the time, I have 2-color decks, maybe a 3-color deck and that's how I want it to play out. I also have no vivids or tri-lands. Quite possibly, with a more aggro-ish cube, I dont think there is really time to cast Tooth and Nail or All Suns' Dawn, but I keep them in my cube so that I don't hinder those that want to build big mana decks.
2-color is drafted most often (maybe with a 1-2 card splash of a 3rd color). I've found that when players do draft 3-5 color decks, the card quality is already good enough for the decks to be amazing without adding any additional support for those types of decks. The extent of my 3+ color deck support is the 5 or so five-color lands in the nonbasic section and the 5 tri-color shard gold cards.
It's okay in a 2-color deck. I prefer Restock in my cube because I can't get 2 spells of the same color with ASD. So, when rarely playing more than 2 colors (or when a splash 3rd color is only 1-2 cards) I prefer Restock. Now, with that being said, I don't even think Restock is good enough. I think green has better recursion magic available, and those spells are already being run.
So, if Restock > All Suns' Dawn (in this cube), and Restock doesn't make the cut... ASD won't make the cut.
..........
Now, for cubes that regularly draft 3-5 color decks, I would concur that All Suns' Dawn is completely sick, and should be an auto-include. However, for this cube and this playgroup, it's just not a good fit.
I noticed the absence of Pulse of the Fields from your list. I cant even put into words how good that card is. It singlehandedly wins the game against the majority of aggro decks by buying you a ridiculous amount of time to gain board dominance. I think its a one of the strongest white control cards and cant imagine not running it in cube. Have you tried it out before?
Its usually much better to be able to remove their threats rather than passively gaining life.
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All the best removal spells are already in the cube and against red decks packing lots of direct damage the 20+ life you can gain off pulse just wins you the game. It fogs aggro's attacks every turn early game until you wrath and/or gain control. It also combos with cards like bargain and necropotence which is extremely unfair.
So was I. I don't lifegain that only does lifegain. I found that a body + lifegain is more detrimental to aggro strategies than pure lifegain is. I pulled Pulse a long time ago for being really below the grade. I'd rather have a lifelink creature or even a ETB lifegain creature before using Pulse.
Quote from DerBK »
It's just imposssible to race someone who has Pulse.
That's not the case at all. Removing the sources that are killing you goes much further in preventing your death than lifegain does. In fact, Radiant's Dragoons was about the single worst card that aggro could see hit the board. A 2/5 blocker and 5 life? That was aggro's bane.
Quote from IA4L »
Its usually much better to be able to remove their threats rather than passively gaining life.
Agreed again. When you can do both in the same card (with something like Shining Shoal, Harm's Way or even Radiant's Dragoons...) that's where lifegain has real value.
What wtwlf said. We cut Pulse a while back and haven't missed it at all. It's very passive aggressive and doesn't really do that much. If an aggro player has a good team on the board and is beating your face with his guys, it might buy you a few turns. It won't win you the game. At least, I never witnessed it winning any games. I'd rather be removing the threat than nullifying it's effects.
Was going over your list to compare and was wondering about a couple cards that didn't make the cut:
Fastbond - Other than being an awful topdeck I see no reason not to include this. Vendilion Clique - I know blue is tight but this guy is just fantastic.
Vendilion Clique - I know blue is tight but this guy is just fantastic.
I have to agree here. Too many awesome things on one card not to have it in. I know blue is tight, but I'd rather have it than Man-o'-War or Willbender (or Time Warp, I think).
3 flying power for 3, plus flash + making them cycle their best card is really great.
I know it's good, but I really don't have anything to cut for it. Man-o'-War and Willbender have both been too good, and Time Warp is great (even though it's strictly worse than Time Walk).
Fastbond was either super busted, or worthless. Unlike other ramp cards, you never know what kind of value you'll get out of Fastbond. With cards like Dark Ritual and Black Lotus, I always know what kind of support I'll get. If you open a 2-land hand, Fastbond is pretty bad. Also, I don't run one card that makes Fastbond really broken, and that's Crucible of Worlds. So I can't infinitely chain Strip Mines and stuff (like you can with Crucible).
I like Fastbond... jut don't know what to cut for it.
I know it's good, but I really don't have anything to cut for it. Man-o'-War and Willbender have both been too good, and Time Warp is great (even though it's strictly worse than Time Walk).
Fastbond was either super busted, or worthless. Unlike other ramp cards, you never know what kind of value you'll get out of Fastbond. With cards like Dark Ritual and Black Lotus, I always know what kind of support I'll get. If you open a 2-land hand, Fastbond is pretty bad. Also, I don't run one card that makes Fastbond really broken, and that's Crucible of Worlds. So I can't infinitely chain Strip Mines and stuff (like you can with Crucible).
I like Fastbond... jut don't know what to cut for it.
I'd run the Clique over any of those three spells, it is VERY good.
Fastbond I cut long ago, it usually did very little. And this was before CoW and LftL got cut.
Personally, I'd cut Serendib Effreet/Psionic Blast for Vendilion Clique, because it still fills the role for an aggressive blue creature, while being on color in it's body and abilities. I know that's not going to happen and I can't really fault anyone for that; just a personal preference.
The next cut does seem like it would be Time Warp for Clique, but you said that wasn't going to happen anyway.
I dunno, I rate Vendilion Clique as one of the top 10 creatures of all time, but perhaps that's a little high.
I wouldn't worry about adding Fastbond. The only deck that could get relaible use out of it is the one also playing Life from the Loam since you aren't running Crucible.
I know the Clique is good. I ran it in my other cube for a long time, and we ran it in our first combined cube for a long time too. However, I don't think it's better than any of the cards that have been suggested thus far for being cut. (And looking through my blue list, I don't think it's better than any of the cards I'm running). It was one of the last cards not to make the cut, and if I ever do an expansion, it'll be one of the first cards in.
That's what I figured about Fastbond, which is why I cut it. It's too inconsistent.
That's what I figured about Fastbond, which is why I cut it. It's too inconsistent.
I agree it is very inconsistent but so are other cards you run, like Black Vise. Crucible is a nice combo but even just picking up a couple of Karoo lands should make it plenty broken and it is still pretty silly with Upheaval. As already suggested, I would cut Willbender for the Clique. The reason being that you only have 1 other morph in the cube so he loses almost all surprise value and is just an onboard trick that can be played around. At the very least, even if Willbender isn't the card you think is the weakest in blue, cut the weakest card and at least test the Clique in this cube. If you give it a chance to prove it's worth and it doesn't then at least you'll have playtested them.
All this talk about Fastbond has got me thinking, how broken would it have been if they reprinted it for Zendikar? Would be so busted with all the landfall.
I will make one last pitch for Vendilion Clique, though I'm glad to hear that you at least tried it. First, it is an off color effect. It is basically blue discard, and as such is incredible in a color that has counters. People will actually hold onto their good spells when you have 1UU open. Second, it has flash. Now flash is clearly great, but it is even better in blue. I don't need to explain why. Third, it promotes blue aggro, while in no way being bad in other blue archetypes. Heck, he's even good against aggro in a "make you pitch your big trump spell and surprise kill your best attacker" way. Last, the card is simply unique. Even if you think the other cards are better there are a ton of bounce effects (even with bodies attached) and misdirection spells but only one thing in blue anything like Vendilion Clique.
You may want to recount those morph creatures, I have at least 1-2 in each color. Not just 2 for the whole cube.
Fair enough, definitely missed a few when I counted. You know the card that is weakest in blue far better than I do being that you have actually played with this cube. Whatever card that is would be the card to cut.
I second everyone's opinion here, I would cut Time Warp for the clique, I don't understand whats so good for a 5 mana timewalk, it was pretty unimpressive for us.
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Also, I wouldn't add Fallout to any aggro deck I'm playing. Sweeping all my attackers off the board is not what I'm looking for in a card that goes into my own deck.
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My cube plays similarly. Most of the time, I have 2-color decks, maybe a 3-color deck and that's how I want it to play out. I also have no vivids or tri-lands. Quite possibly, with a more aggro-ish cube, I dont think there is really time to cast Tooth and Nail or All Suns' Dawn, but I keep them in my cube so that I don't hinder those that want to build big mana decks.
2-color is drafted most often (maybe with a 1-2 card splash of a 3rd color). I've found that when players do draft 3-5 color decks, the card quality is already good enough for the decks to be amazing without adding any additional support for those types of decks. The extent of my 3+ color deck support is the 5 or so five-color lands in the nonbasic section and the 5 tri-color shard gold cards.
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So, if Restock > All Suns' Dawn (in this cube), and Restock doesn't make the cut... ASD won't make the cut.
..........
Now, for cubes that regularly draft 3-5 color decks, I would concur that All Suns' Dawn is completely sick, and should be an auto-include. However, for this cube and this playgroup, it's just not a good fit.
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That seems good. My cube currently runs both, but Condescend has been really good for us.
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So was I. I don't lifegain that only does lifegain. I found that a body + lifegain is more detrimental to aggro strategies than pure lifegain is. I pulled Pulse a long time ago for being really below the grade. I'd rather have a lifelink creature or even a ETB lifegain creature before using Pulse.
That's not the case at all. Removing the sources that are killing you goes much further in preventing your death than lifegain does. In fact, Radiant's Dragoons was about the single worst card that aggro could see hit the board. A 2/5 blocker and 5 life? That was aggro's bane.
Agreed again. When you can do both in the same card (with something like Shining Shoal, Harm's Way or even Radiant's Dragoons...) that's where lifegain has real value.
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Fastbond - Other than being an awful topdeck I see no reason not to include this.
Vendilion Clique - I know blue is tight but this guy is just fantastic.
I have to agree here. Too many awesome things on one card not to have it in. I know blue is tight, but I'd rather have it than Man-o'-War or Willbender (or Time Warp, I think).
3 flying power for 3, plus flash + making them cycle their best card is really great.
Fastbond was either super busted, or worthless. Unlike other ramp cards, you never know what kind of value you'll get out of Fastbond. With cards like Dark Ritual and Black Lotus, I always know what kind of support I'll get. If you open a 2-land hand, Fastbond is pretty bad. Also, I don't run one card that makes Fastbond really broken, and that's Crucible of Worlds. So I can't infinitely chain Strip Mines and stuff (like you can with Crucible).
I like Fastbond... jut don't know what to cut for it.
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I'd run the Clique over any of those three spells, it is VERY good.
Fastbond I cut long ago, it usually did very little. And this was before CoW and LftL got cut.
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The next cut does seem like it would be Time Warp for Clique, but you said that wasn't going to happen anyway.
I dunno, I rate Vendilion Clique as one of the top 10 creatures of all time, but perhaps that's a little high.
I wouldn't worry about adding Fastbond. The only deck that could get relaible use out of it is the one also playing Life from the Loam since you aren't running Crucible.
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That's what I figured about Fastbond, which is why I cut it. It's too inconsistent.
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I agree it is very inconsistent but so are other cards you run, like Black Vise. Crucible is a nice combo but even just picking up a couple of Karoo lands should make it plenty broken and it is still pretty silly with Upheaval. As already suggested, I would cut Willbender for the Clique. The reason being that you only have 1 other morph in the cube so he loses almost all surprise value and is just an onboard trick that can be played around. At the very least, even if Willbender isn't the card you think is the weakest in blue, cut the weakest card and at least test the Clique in this cube. If you give it a chance to prove it's worth and it doesn't then at least you'll have playtested them.
All this talk about Fastbond has got me thinking, how broken would it have been if they reprinted it for Zendikar? Would be so busted with all the landfall.
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Fair enough, definitely missed a few when I counted. You know the card that is weakest in blue far better than I do being that you have actually played with this cube. Whatever card that is would be the card to cut.
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