Hi everyone! At one point I posted my cube on these forums for discussion, but soon thereafter moved out of state, meaning I didn't have much time for cubing any more. It's been so long ago that I couldn't find it in the most recent couple of pages, and I didn't want to necro it from that far back. Anyway, it's changed so much since then that it's like posting a new cube anyway, so hopefully I can get some insight into all the changes with some helpful discussion and criticisms.
Some notes on the construction of my cube. First, it's not powered. No Nine obviously, but furthermore, some of the staples of Vintage that proved too powerful are out, Sol Ring and Mana Crypt in particular. Mana Vault and Grim Monolith have taken their place, as it's not so devastating to just have to deal with the mana surge one time. Please do not argue that fast mana should be included simply because that's what you believe cubing is all about, as A) this isn't entirely my decision, as I cube with many people who don't like games like that and B) I believe the Cube is simply defined as a cardpool formed for the purpose of Limited play. I think it's up to each individual group to determine how powerful they want that Cube to be, which is my opinion, an opinion no more or less valid than any other. I just want everyone to have fun.
Second, my new group, old fogies that we are, haven't purchased any cards from past M10 with 5 exceptions (the fetch lands that complete the Onslaught cycle). That means I can't get them easily, so I'd like to limit any additions to M10 and backwards. Turns out people are willing to trade for old stuff quite a lot at my new FNM...
Third, I don't run P3K. Just a preference thing.
EDIT: Fourth, we've formed a tentative stance on LD in this cube. What we're looking for are tempo plays that enable aggro to remain competitive and specifically punish people for running non-basics. However, massive LD like Armageddon and Ravages of War have been voted down by the group, and so will not be added. This policy means that for the most part one can avoid having their lands messed with by sticking to one/two colors, an option many feel is necessary for everyone to have fun. I don't necessarily agree, but after all, this format (and Magic in general) is a social experience.
Very nice cube man, there are almost nothing I would change except for a few preference thing cough*arcane denial*cough, however there are a few cards that's on the weaker side I feel (its sort of nit picking though, your cube is really awesome already)
Wall of Reverence-4 mana just for a purely defensive creature is a lot, I think something like temple acolyte or the new perimeter captain (which you can't get) would be better in the defensive role as they can come down very early, so just play another aggro drop, I noticed a lack of soltari champion.
Fathom Trawl A pretty unimpressive draw spell for its cost, if Jace, mind sculptor is not an option then I think tidings could replace it, at least you don't show all your tricks.
Sleep I think this is a bit weak for a cube your size, I would run Desertion for a fun counterspell or miscalculation for a more get the job done counterspell.
Aeon Chronicler I think most of us has found it for be just a bit slow usually, Sphinx of jwar isle shouldn't be too expensive even if you want to buy online right....like $2, some people claim its better than morphling! while I do no support such claims I do think its a amazing finisher.
Fathom Seer-Its not a bad card although the tempo loss can sometimes be a bit much, how about a gilded drake for fun and profit!
I see you run booster tutor, if you are not against silver bordered cards I strongly recommend Gifts given, as its simply unbelievable.
Exhume The problem with exhume is that while its plenty good early game when comboed with discard, its often quite weak late game due to your opponent usually have something nice to get back as well. slightly more expensive but just as fun is Necromancy
Scepter of Fugue we have found this card to be generally underwhelming when we tried it, does not effect the board and can be very mana intensive. I recommend Nether void as a black armageddon is awesome.
Mutilate-Only useful in mono black or almost mono black, else its too weak to run, if you want something defensive at 4 mana may I recommend, also from legends, The Abyss.
Cloudthresher is a solid large body with flesh, however the GGGG is somewhat prohibitive, I think replacing it with arguably the best green high drop would be good, Woodfall primus costs just a little more, with nuts abilities!
I think Powder Keg is a bit slow, not able to sweep 2 drops until turn 4 meaning you have already taken 2 hits if you are on the draw. I recommend Black vise because...em...its nuts?
Cold-Eyed Selkie I do like this card and tried it for a while in my own cube, evasion and potentially completely sick with pump is nice, but its just not as game winning as spitting image!
YES no STORMBIND.
Have fun cubing.
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I am petitioning for the end of: the Mythic rarity, the Planeswalker card type, the post-8th edition card faces, the 2010 rule changes, colorless cards that aren't artifacts or lands, the Legendary supertype, the stack, auras, multicolor cards, artifact creatures, tokens, goblins, merfolk, elves, sorceries, instants, and permanents. Basically, I just want to play with purple contraptions.
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I'm actually in total agreement with you for most of what you posted, with the exception of Wall of Reverence, who has been ridiculous and continually surprises me with the amount of combos he can be a part of. I'll think about what you said though and start paying really close attention to it in our drafts to see what happens.
I must find a spot for Soltari Champion though, because that's insane. I had no idea he existed, but I must have one. If you think the defense in white should be cut, what do you think about removing Scepter of Dominance instead?
you could cut Stonecloaker or soltari visionary for the champion, stonecloacker lost a lot of appeal when the m10 rule changes occured, where is some people have said they didn;t like visionary, I have never played with it so I don't know.
I suppose I view defensive cards in 2 categories, cheap effecient ways to stop aggressive rushes, or things to pack the game away out of aggro's reach once control is established. Most removal would be in the former while lifegain on cards such as baneslayer angel, battlegrace angel, Exalted Angel (notices a theme?) loxodon hierach, ravenous baloth are in the latter. The problem for me in the case of the wall is sure, its a really expensive 1, or a very average 2. The wall sure blocks well, but for 4 mana I want something more than just good at blocking, and the lifegain is very underwhelming unless.
Em, I didn't notice you don't have sulfuric vortex, definitely replace it with that.
I nominate prismatic lens or Darksteel colossus to be removed, infact i would cut them both and also play sundering titan, Sundering titan not only can be tinkered, it can also be reanimated, or actually casted to good effect. Lens because you have 16 mana producing artifact so I think you will still have enough even if you remove one.
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I am petitioning for the end of: the Mythic rarity, the Planeswalker card type, the post-8th edition card faces, the 2010 rule changes, colorless cards that aren't artifacts or lands, the Legendary supertype, the stack, auras, multicolor cards, artifact creatures, tokens, goblins, merfolk, elves, sorceries, instants, and permanents. Basically, I just want to play with purple contraptions.
Copy this sig to join the cause. Cuz, ya know, Wizards makes decisions based on sigs.
Those are the only cards that I've been able to acquire of the suggested changes, still looking for the rest. I'm going to edit the first post for changes.
I am petitioning for the end of: the Mythic rarity, the Planeswalker card type, the post-8th edition card faces, the 2010 rule changes, colorless cards that aren't artifacts or lands, the Legendary supertype, the stack, auras, multicolor cards, artifact creatures, tokens, goblins, merfolk, elves, sorceries, instants, and permanents. Basically, I just want to play with purple contraptions.
Copy this sig to join the cause. Cuz, ya know, Wizards makes decisions based on sigs.
As I've been looking for The Abyss, I've come to think that it might be too unbalancing, maybe on Moat's level. Has anyone tried Anowon, the Ruin Sage yet? I know he just came out, but I traded for one of those today as well, and I'm thinking that he might be a better fit. If nothing else, I might start using him as a placeholder until I can get an Abyss. He's better than Mutilate I would think.
Further, on the subject of Moat, I'm beginning to miss Teferi's Moat ,which is powerful without being game-ending. Anyone have any suggestions for drops in U/W?
Thanks a lot for the input guys, I really appreciate it.
The Abyss is definitely on the same level as Moat, its awesome. you should play both. losing your hand or losing all your lands is also "unbalancing" but I still see mind twist and armageddon in your list.
Mutilate is generally pretty underwhelming.
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I am petitioning for the end of: the Mythic rarity, the Planeswalker card type, the post-8th edition card faces, the 2010 rule changes, colorless cards that aren't artifacts or lands, the Legendary supertype, the stack, auras, multicolor cards, artifact creatures, tokens, goblins, merfolk, elves, sorceries, instants, and permanents. Basically, I just want to play with purple contraptions.
Copy this sig to join the cause. Cuz, ya know, Wizards makes decisions based on sigs.
I actually don't run Geddon... The guys in my playgroup HATE mana denial (I feel it's important to distinguish between a mana denial strategy and land destruction cards. Maze of Ith necessitates at least some LD in the cube). I do have Balance though, so point taken.
I've also decided to take your advice and try Perimeter Captain in Wall of Reverence's slot for awhile. The quickness of the Captain should make up for the combos...I will miss my Phyrexian Processor shenanigans though...
Defiler seems a little too color intensive, though the evasion is awesome sauce. Would you let me know how he works out in your testing? I'd love to know.
Teferi's Moat is something of a pet card, but you're probably right about it being too bulky when I'm trying to keep the gold count low. I'm already trying to find space for Grand Arbiter Augustin IV in UW, so I should probably focus on him. That said, I'd hate to drop Guildmage...she gives White Weenie something to do with their mana after turn 4, but I can see why she'd be the weakest of the 4.
Silent Arbiter is nice, and I am already thinking about expanding the artifact section by 5 cards so that I can support a 9 person draft. I'd probably also add Razormane Masticore and Solemn Simulacrum back in as part of that move. In the meantime, if I see one while I'm trading, I'll play him in DSC's slot. Thanks for the suggestion!
Yeah, I'm going to keep an eye on Anowon, the Ruin Sage and see how often he does nothing but chow on some removal, but there's no harm in testing him. Really, as far as placeholders for The Abyss, it's either him or Magus of the Abyss...and he's just bad.
On another note, as anyone tried Silent Specter? He looks like he could hit HARD, and I'm always looking to add more morphs to make them unpredictable.
I still use Silent Specter, and he's great because he's a morph. I don't fault any other cube managers that dont use him though ( he does die to everything ). If they dont have the removal for him though, it's a powerful effect. Also, I do like a bit more morph diversity in my cube - just to keep players on their toes.
In other news, my group is considering cutting the cutthroat aspect of the cube altogether, by which I mean the aspects of the cube that sever interactivity (Mind Twist, Balance, etc.). I'm advocating against this, but we'll see what happens.
Tooth and Nail -----> Mold Shambler (THIS DUDE DESTROYS PLANESWALKERS. I don't know if I can type that loudly enough...Tooth was just too expensive and too bomby.) Krosan Grip -----> Acidic Slime Moment's Peace ----> Twinblade Slasher(See Serra Avenger) Farseek -----> Mwonvuli Acid-Moss (Farseek was almost never played, Acid-Moss seems like a sweet tempo play) Gaea's Anthem ----> Oracle of Mul Daya (The anthem needs to be in white, which it will be as soon as I get a Glorious. White card out, green card in)
Artifacts/Multicolor
Adding 5 cards to even the cube out and support a 9 man draft Darksteel Colossus ----> Sundering Titan (If the LD gets to be too much, I may have to drop him. At least he can be reanimated though.)
The change that I really don't want to be associated with Mana Vault ---> Basilisk Collar
This last one was a large discussion where my cube compatriots basically gave me the ultimatum of dropping Vault or Mind Twist. I feel Twist is necessary to punish 5 color Control, so it stays in and Vault gets the axe for a mediocre equipment. Not my decision, but then again, I want the cube to be fun for everybody. I don't run a cube tyranny.
Wow that took a long time to type. I'll update the OP later, for now I'm going to go grab a snack!
In general, solid changes with not much to question. There are these however....
Sudden Shock ----> Words of War
Not really a fan of either. Smash to Smitherens seems more in Red's themes.
Battlegrace Angel ----> Kor Skyfisher
I like the inclusion of Skyfisher, but the Angel is pretty awesome both in aggro and control. I'd try to run both. Condemn is a control only card that I'd rather cut.
Krosan Grip -----> Acidic Slime
I like both here. Your green section is pretty solid though. Over Puncing Jaguar?
Farseek -----> Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
I have been thinking about this but haven't for two reasons. Firstly, Farseek is just too good. And secondly, although Acid looks like Plow Under 2.0 it's really not. The value of ramp (and to a lesser extent, LD) goes way down the more expensive the spell is (nobody is talking about Explosive Vegetation as a cube-worthy card, for instance).
We've gone back to Pyroclasm over Volcanic Fallout (which I believe you still run). The lower casting cost was more important than the instant speed.
Momentary Blink ----> Journey to Nowhere (I love Blink and want to get it back in, probably in U/W where it belongs, but for now the removal is better)
I would really miss Blink, but then we have a lot of fun with 187 abuse.
I don't think that the mystic will be good enough, but it is always good to test.
Farseek -----> Mwonvuli Acid-Moss (Farseek was almost never played, Acid-Moss seems like a sweet tempo play)
I'd agree with magicmerl that the Acid-Moss is a little too slow.
Darksteel Colossus ----> Sundering Titan (If the LD gets to be too much, I may have to drop him. At least he can be reanimated though.)
I cut Darksteel Colossus a while back and he is not missed. He was replaced with Inkwell Leviathan which was a comparable power level for Tinker'ing out but had the bonus of being playable in reanimator.
I would miss Kiki-Jiki as a fun card, but it is not so powerful.
Beacon of Unrest ---> Living Death (Seems good replacing a reanimator card with a reanimator archetype, but I'll miss the Beacon.)
I support reanimator and I am sure you will have a lot more fun with Living Death. We cut the beacon and didn't miss it.
Akroma's Vengeance ----> Day of Judgment (With aggro getting a boost, I felt another cheap sweeper would be necessary for control to stabilize. I hate that I have to ditch Vengeance, but the only other sweeper I'd consider dropping is Hallowed Burial, and it and I have too much history.)
I'd have kept the Vengeance, but it sounds as if I'm arguing against a pet card...
Not my decision, but then again, I want the cube to be fun for everybody. I don't run a cube tyranny.
Absolutely. Always have to keep the punters happy.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
First of all, thank you everyone for your input. It's always nice to have more opinions to work with.
Magicmerl - I could fit Smash to Smithereens in the Keldon Vandals slot I suppose, and then maybe replace Words of War with the Vandals if it doesn't work out, but turning every draw into a Shock seems like an excellent way for a red deck to close out a game. I'm going to test it for awhile, and maybe it won't be impressive, but it can't hurt. Do you think Smash makes it over Keldon Vandals here? I think the Vandals are more maindeckable, but the damage on Smash is definitely more reliable. Since I've seen the Vandals in action before and have a general idea of their effectiveness, I'll replace them for now and test Smash to Smithereens.
Battlegrace Angel oftens just felt like Exalted Angel's little, less effective sister, so that's why she got the axe. You're right about Condemn though, it's a more exclusively control mage card. I'd drop Condemn for Battlegrace, but I agree with returning Paladin en-Vec, and I think he makes the cut over Battlegrace.
I am very against dropping Pouncing Jaguar. 2/x for 1 is the stuff aggro is built on, and another disenchant effect wouldn't make up for the loss of speed. If a spot opens up I'd be willing to return Krosan Grip, but for now I feel that the green section is too tight. Heck, I'm already trying to find slots for Wild Dogs and Woodfall Primus...
No love for the Acid-Moss? That's kind of surprising, but I can see your point. I'll put Farseek back in.
Humpty Dumpty - I considered both Fallout and Clasm for deletion, and ended up choosing Fallout as one more way to stop Rude Awakening. I'll keep an eye on it though, see if the double red gets in the way too often. Thank you for the heads up.
I'm missing Blink already, and we've only drafted this version of the cube once. I'm fairly certain that Plumeveil and Azorious Guildmage are going to end up being replaced with Momentary Blink and Grand Arbiter Augustin IV. I'm going to test that for a little bit I believe, after the stir from this big update dies down.
Yeah, I left Leviathan in U because it's not at all odd to see a blue deck hit 9 mana from Signets and draw-go, but effectively he was a replacement for DSC.
Kiki is in the same camp as Blink. I REALLY want him back, but don't know what to cut.
Hallowed Burial vs. Akroma's Vengeance - Yeah, Burial is kind of a sacred cow for me. I've three times now saved myself from decking by casting it, only to win the game with manlands before I finished drawing my dudes again. Too hilarious to cut in my opinion. Also, I think Austere Command is a better fit in the cube than Vengeance because it requires more decisions, and in general is slightly more skill intensive, which is always nice.
eidolon- Stonecloaker is the last of White's ability to blink that's left in the cube, and it would break my heart to have not a single blink effect. Once I fit Momentary Blink back into U/W I'll probably drop the underwhelming hoser, but until then something's going to have to give us our 187 fix...
In addition to just the tempo advantage, Plow Under is also card advantage too, as they won't draw a new card for three turns. If you play it when you've got board control, it's scoopsville. The same can't be said for the Acid-Moss, as it's simply an affordable entwined Reap & Sow. Not the same thing at all.
Anyone have any suggestions regarding what to cut, or any experience playing with the suggested cards that indicates I shouldn't bother trying to fit them in?
(Oh, I'm also still looking for these, but I'll wait until I actually get a copy to ask about them)
Yeah, Hexmage is kind of weak, but I'm considering her because Planeswalkers are getting to be a real problem...Cutthroat and Dogs are to try to help aggro out, as it tends to be the case that only 1 person gets enough fast cards to build a solid aggro deck. I may just give up on fitting Acid-Moss in, as little love as it gets. I'm not running Plow Under for the same reason I'm not running 'Geddon, and I thought Acid-Moss might be a good compromise, but it may just be too slow.
I don't find Beacon questionable at all, as it's not only great for reanimator, but it shuts down Genesis and messes with Recurring Nightmare too. It hurt a lot to drop it, and I'll put it back as soon as I can.
The non-basics are taking up too much room in the packs now, I think. I'm pretty sure that I'm going to drop the Karoos and increase the number of each color by 2.
Also, I'm going to change the Vivids into the new manland cycle as soon as I get a set, I think. Even though the non-blue ones look bad, I think they'll often be better than the Vivids. Plus, it's a lot easier to put lands into the cube if I do it in cycles
Yeah, Hexmage is kind of weak, but I'm considering her because Planeswalkers are getting to be a real problem...Cutthroat and Dogs are to try to help aggro out, as it tends to be the case that only 1 person gets enough fast cards to build a solid aggro deck. I may just give up on fitting Acid-Moss in, as little love as it gets. I'm not running Plow Under for the same reason I'm not running 'Geddon, and I thought Acid-Moss might be a good compromise, but it may just be too slow.
You know, helping aggro includes adding the right support cards....
Edit: Just looked at your first post. With 50 cards in each colour, you need about 8 aggro dudes (2+ power, <=2 CMC), and you only reach that threshold in white. Green, Black and Red all need more aggro dudes.
I don't find Beacon questionable at all, as it's not only great for reanimator, but it shuts down Genesis and messes with Recurring Nightmare too. It hurt a lot to drop it, and I'll put it back as soon as I can.
Cool. I don't have Beacon in my cube but do want to extend the reanimator theme and Beacon seems like a decent way to do that.
The non-basics are taking up too much room in the packs now, I think. I'm pretty sure that I'm going to drop the Karoos and increase the number of each color by 2.
I wouldn't. Because cube drafts are stacked full of quality, there has to be something to do with those other 22 cards you draft. Why not make a chunk of them non-basics so drafters are trying to sift 9-10 playables out of each pack rather than 7-8. I think that it increases the tension of the draft more (and makes non-basic hate more effective).
Also, I'm going to change the Vivids into the new manland cycle as soon as I get a set, I think. Even though the non-blue ones look bad, I think they'll often be better than the Vivids. Plus, it's a lot easier to put lands into the cube if I do it in cycles
All the manduals are awesome. I don't know where they rate compared to the other cycles (saclands are #1 IMO, not sure about the rest). But I'm actively looking to have more lands in my cube than what I cap each colour at, for the reason stated above.
You know, helping aggro includes adding the right support cards....
Edit: Just looked at your first post. With 50 cards in each colour, you need about 8 aggro dudes (2+ power, <=2 CMC), and you only reach that threshold in white. Green, Black and Red all need more aggro dudes.
What do you mean about the right support cards? I'm genuinely interested here, as I'm not really an aggro player.
And yes, I'm aware that the dude count is low. That's why I'm trying to raise it with things like Wild Dogs and Nezumi Cutthroat...
EDIT - Just saw that 'Geddon was bolded. D'oh! That's one of my group's calls. They just don't like mass LD much. I'll try to convince them otherwise again.
Well, Geddon is one of the support cards that helps make aggro viable. It 'creates tension' if you will. The thing that sucks about geddon is not that they play it and win, it's that they play it and don't win. Having cheap creatures lets the aggro decks win once they blow up the lands and stops people getting annoyed at not being able to play their spells by putting them out of their misery quickly?
Here's some non-graveyard equivalents: Tangle Wire, Winter Orb, Hokori.
A Team - Aggro beaters with CMC<=2, Power >=2 Buffs - Making your creatures bigger (anthems, pump). Level 1 aggro support. Racing - Haste/Reach(burn)/Lifegain - helps you win the race. Level 2 aggro support. Disruption - Discard and Land Destruction. Level 3 aggro support.
Spot Removal - Things wot kill non-lands, including counterspells (destruction, burn, bounce, exile etc)
Sweepers - Stuff that kills more than one non-land permanent
Graveyard - cards that affect or operate out of the graveyard, including enabler effects
Library - Draw/Tutor/Looting/Mill - Library Effects
Mana - Ramp/Accel/Fixing - Mana and Land Effects
Mooks - Just your standard men and random cards that don't fit anywhere else. You play them, they die. A catchall category for everything that doesn't fit somewhere else.
The first four groups of cards are what's important to make aggro viable.
My cube of 463 cards only 'supports' aggro in WBR (not G or U) and has the following counts:
Aggro 39 (8% of the entire cube)
Buff 28 (6%)
Racing 62 (13%)
Disruption 44 (10%)
That's including all of the lands, artifacts, multicoloured spells etc, which typically don't contain aggro cards in significant quantity.
If you want to read a few thousand words on the topic, Usman apparently wrote an article on it (that I contributed in a small way to).
That's a good breakdown, and I've done something like it in the past. It's just been too long since then. If you'll notice, all of my recent changes have been to try to increase the presence of 1 and 2 drop 2 power dorks. Which brings me to this.
I like them all, good choices. The more questionable ones are Beacon, Cutthroat, Hexmage, Dogs and Acid.
This is what confused me. It sounds like you're advocating against these changes, but 3 of the 5 ARE part of the A-list. They certainly aren't tier 1 a-list, but I'm still working on getting anything awesome post-M10, remember.
Incidentally, you hit the Armageddon dilemma on the head. I do have Tangle Wire in because it can be dealt with in the form of removal, and have thought about adding Winter Orb for the same reason. Hokori might go over with the group, given that he can be burned out on the cheap. I'll probably find space for one or both in the next update, coming this Friday after I try to find a Vampire Lacerator, Bloodghast, and some other new bombs that people are willing to part with.
If I'm going to be honest, the Armageddon issue is that the others feel that any time you have a large amount of LD, you attract griefers to it, and 2 of my main group are recovering griefer addicts. I'm not talking about Spike, who genuinely wants to win, I'm talking about someone who plays Limited Resources.dec at a 10 person multiplayer table just to see how long they can keep the lock going. I'm talking about Armageddon backed up with cheap countermagic. It's the equivalent of Stasis, and it can easily take cube drafting from taking a few hours to lasting all night if done ad nauseum.
EDIT
Some more cards I'm hoping to add soon, and what I'll likely cut for them. All of these changes will attempt to lower the mana curve.
Some notes on the construction of my cube. First, it's not powered. No Nine obviously, but furthermore, some of the staples of Vintage that proved too powerful are out, Sol Ring and Mana Crypt in particular.
Mana Vault andGrim Monolith have taken their place, as it's not so devastating to just have to deal with the mana surge one time. Please do not argue that fast mana should be included simply because that's what you believe cubing is all about, as A) this isn't entirely my decision, as I cube with many people who don't like games like that and B) I believe the Cube is simply defined as a cardpool formed for the purpose of Limited play. I think it's up to each individual group to determine how powerful they want that Cube to be, which is my opinion, an opinion no more or less valid than any other. I just want everyone to have fun.Second, my new group, old fogies that we are, haven't purchased any cards from past M10 with 5 exceptions (the fetch lands that complete the Onslaught cycle).
That means I can't get them easily, so I'd like to limit any additions to M10 and backwards.Turns out people are willing to trade for old stuff quite a lot at my new FNM...Third, I don't run P3K. Just a preference thing.
EDIT: Fourth, we've formed a tentative stance on LD in this cube. What we're looking for are tempo plays that enable aggro to remain competitive and specifically punish people for running non-basics. However, massive LD like Armageddon and Ravages of War have been voted down by the group, and so will not be added. This policy means that for the most part one can avoid having their lands messed with by sticking to one/two colors, an option many feel is necessary for everyone to have fun. I don't necessarily agree, but after all, this format (and Magic in general) is a social experience.
Thanks ahead of time for any advice!
White (59 cards)
23 spells
- Decree of Justice
- Martial Coup
- Enlightened Tutor
- Land Tax
- Path to Exile
- Swords to Plowshares
- Balance
- Disenchant
- Honor of the Pure
(placeholder for Glorious Anthem)36 creatures
Red (59 cards)
27 Spells
32 creatures
Blue (59 cards)
37 Spells
22 creatures
Black (59 cards)
27 creatures
Green (59 cards)
17 Spells
42 creatures
Colorless (45 cards)
Artifact Creatures
Mana Artifacts
Equipment
Utility
Multicolor (45 cards)
W/U
W/R
U/B
U/R
B/R
U/G
R/G
B/G
G/W
W/B
Three-color
Esper
Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Jund
Broodmate Dragon
Grixis
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Naya
Wild Nacatl
Bant
Rafiq of the Many
Land (55 cards)
Banned Cards (updated)
The Power Nine
Wanted List
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
Wall of Reverence-4 mana just for a purely defensive creature is a lot, I think something like temple acolyte or the new perimeter captain (which you can't get) would be better in the defensive role as they can come down very early, so just play another aggro drop, I noticed a lack of soltari champion.
also maybe swap Blade of the Sixth Pride for soltari trooper, the trooper will do more damage usually because of the evasion.
Molten Disaster the RRR is pretty annoying, I would play faultline or comet storm.
Word of Seizing really just a bit overcosted I think.
Fathom Trawl A pretty unimpressive draw spell for its cost, if Jace, mind sculptor is not an option then I think tidings could replace it, at least you don't show all your tricks.
Sleep I think this is a bit weak for a cube your size, I would run Desertion for a fun counterspell or miscalculation for a more get the job done counterspell.
Aeon Chronicler I think most of us has found it for be just a bit slow usually, Sphinx of jwar isle shouldn't be too expensive even if you want to buy online right....like $2, some people claim its better than morphling! while I do no support such claims I do think its a amazing finisher.
Fathom Seer-Its not a bad card although the tempo loss can sometimes be a bit much, how about a gilded drake for fun and profit!
I see you run booster tutor, if you are not against silver bordered cards I strongly recommend Gifts given, as its simply unbelievable.
Exhume The problem with exhume is that while its plenty good early game when comboed with discard, its often quite weak late game due to your opponent usually have something nice to get back as well. slightly more expensive but just as fun is Necromancy
Scepter of Fugue we have found this card to be generally underwhelming when we tried it, does not effect the board and can be very mana intensive. I recommend Nether void as a black armageddon is awesome.
Mutilate-Only useful in mono black or almost mono black, else its too weak to run, if you want something defensive at 4 mana may I recommend, also from legends, The Abyss.
Cloudthresher is a solid large body with flesh, however the GGGG is somewhat prohibitive, I think replacing it with arguably the best green high drop would be good, Woodfall primus costs just a little more, with nuts abilities!
I think Powder Keg is a bit slow, not able to sweep 2 drops until turn 4 meaning you have already taken 2 hits if you are on the draw. I recommend Black vise because...em...its nuts?
Cold-Eyed Selkie I do like this card and tried it for a while in my own cube, evasion and potentially completely sick with pump is nice, but its just not as game winning as spitting image!
YES no STORMBIND.
Have fun cubing.
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I'm actually in total agreement with you for most of what you posted, with the exception of Wall of Reverence, who has been ridiculous and continually surprises me with the amount of combos he can be a part of. I'll think about what you said though and start paying really close attention to it in our drafts to see what happens.
I must find a spot for Soltari Champion though, because that's insane. I had no idea he existed, but I must have one. If you think the defense in white should be cut, what do you think about removing Scepter of Dominance instead?
As for Word of Seizing, maybe I could replace it with Sulfuric Vortex? Has anyone reading this had success with it?
I'm going to look into getting the following
Those last three might be difficult, like I said, but I'll certainly try. Thanks again for the response, Nevermore.
On another note, I really need to make room for Tangle Wire, so if anyone has a suggestion for an artifact to cut I'd love to hear it.
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
I suppose I view defensive cards in 2 categories, cheap effecient ways to stop aggressive rushes, or things to pack the game away out of aggro's reach once control is established. Most removal would be in the former while lifegain on cards such as baneslayer angel, battlegrace angel, Exalted Angel (notices a theme?) loxodon hierach, ravenous baloth are in the latter. The problem for me in the case of the wall is sure, its a really expensive 1, or a very average 2. The wall sure blocks well, but for 4 mana I want something more than just good at blocking, and the lifegain is very underwhelming unless.
Em, I didn't notice you don't have sulfuric vortex, definitely replace it with that.
I nominate prismatic lens or Darksteel colossus to be removed, infact i would cut them both and also play sundering titan, Sundering titan not only can be tinkered, it can also be reanimated, or actually casted to good effect. Lens because you have 16 mana producing artifact so I think you will still have enough even if you remove one.
Copy this sig to join the cause. Cuz, ya know, Wizards makes decisions based on sigs.
Aeon Chronicler --> Sphinx of Jwar Isle
Cold-Eyed Selkie -->Spitting Image
Sleep-->Miscalculation
Powder Keg --> Black Vise
Word of Seizing --> Sulfuric Vortex
Prismatic Lens --> Tangle Wire
Those are the only cards that I've been able to acquire of the suggested changes, still looking for the rest. I'm going to edit the first post for changes.
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
Copy this sig to join the cause. Cuz, ya know, Wizards makes decisions based on sigs.
One change today, since I just saw this guy and traded for him.
Faceless Butcher --> Ob Nixilis, The Fallen
As I've been looking for The Abyss, I've come to think that it might be too unbalancing, maybe on Moat's level. Has anyone tried Anowon, the Ruin Sage yet? I know he just came out, but I traded for one of those today as well, and I'm thinking that he might be a better fit. If nothing else, I might start using him as a placeholder until I can get an Abyss. He's better than Mutilate I would think.
Further, on the subject of Moat, I'm beginning to miss Teferi's Moat ,which is powerful without being game-ending. Anyone have any suggestions for drops in U/W?
Thanks a lot for the input guys, I really appreciate it.
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
Mutilate is generally pretty underwhelming.
Copy this sig to join the cause. Cuz, ya know, Wizards makes decisions based on sigs.
I've also decided to take your advice and try Perimeter Captain in Wall of Reverence's slot for awhile. The quickness of the Captain should make up for the combos...I will miss my Phyrexian Processor shenanigans though...
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
Teferi's Moat is something of a pet card, but you're probably right about it being too bulky when I'm trying to keep the gold count low. I'm already trying to find space for Grand Arbiter Augustin IV in UW, so I should probably focus on him. That said, I'd hate to drop Guildmage...she gives White Weenie something to do with their mana after turn 4, but I can see why she'd be the weakest of the 4.
Silent Arbiter is nice, and I am already thinking about expanding the artifact section by 5 cards so that I can support a 9 person draft. I'd probably also add Razormane Masticore and Solemn Simulacrum back in as part of that move. In the meantime, if I see one while I'm trading, I'll play him in DSC's slot. Thanks for the suggestion!
Yeah, I'm going to keep an eye on Anowon, the Ruin Sage and see how often he does nothing but chow on some removal, but there's no harm in testing him. Really, as far as placeholders for The Abyss, it's either him or Magus of the Abyss...and he's just bad.
On another note, as anyone tried Silent Specter? He looks like he could hit HARD, and I'm always looking to add more morphs to make them unpredictable.
Thanks again for the input guys!
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
[CARD]
Mutilate[/CARD] --> Anowon, the Ruin Sage
Cloudthresher --> Rampaging Baloths
In other news, my group is considering cutting the cutthroat aspect of the cube altogether, by which I mean the aspects of the cube that sever interactivity (Mind Twist, Balance, etc.). I'm advocating against this, but we'll see what happens.
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
Solid changes (I don't expect much argument here, because these all seem like straight improvements.)
Red
Almost a total overhaul. Aggro outta love it.
[CARD]
Akroma, Angel of Fury[/CARD] ----> Crater Hellion (I don't like losing a morph creature, but Hellion is soooo good.)
Countryside Crusher ----> Goblin Guide
Flameblast Dragon ----> Hellkite Charger
Genju of the Spires ----> Hellspark Elemental
Molten Disaster ----> Comet Storm
Shattering Pulse ----> Keldon Vandals (Pulse was almost never bought back, and the same effect on a dude will always be welcome.)
Sudden Shock ----> Words of War
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage ----> Plated Geopede
Pyroclasm ---> Burst Lightning (As a sorcery, Pyroclasm was never very impressive)
Black
Mesmeric Fiend ----> Sarcomancy
Anowon, the Ruin Sage ----> Sorin Markov (We never even got to test the vampire, just because the Planeswalker seems like a must-cube.)
Dusk Urchins -----> Vampire Nighthawk (Dusk Urchins are really, really good IMO. Nighthawk is INSANE though.)
Withered Wretch ----> Phyrexian Scuta (Reanimator/Recursion isn't such a problem that I need to play an average creature to hose it, though he'll probably come back in if I ever expand the cube.)
White
Soltari Visionary ----> Soltari Trooper (Still can't find the champion...)
Serra Avenger ---> Stormfront Pegasus (Neuter control, boost aggro)
Momentary Blink ----> Journey to Nowhere (I love Blink and want to get it back in, probably in U/W where it belongs, but for now the removal is better)
Battlegrace Angel ----> Kor Skyfisher (See Serra Avenger comments)
Return to Dust ----> Kor Sanctifiers (Same effect, now with a dude attached)
Paladin en-Vec ----> Savannah Lions (For a long time I didn't want to play duplicate cards, but Lions is too iconic and too good. Elite Vanguard just can't be special anymore.)
Perimeter Captain ----> Steppe Lynx (See Serra Avenger)
Blade of the Sixth Pride ---> Stoneforge Mystic (Added some equipment to the artifacts and I want to test her. We'll see)
Blue
Fathom Trawl ----> Into the Roil
Fathom Seer----> Gilded Drake (as Nevermore said, for fun and profit)
Time Stop ----> Time Spiral (Time Stop has always just been a placeholder)
Ophidian ----> Inkwell Leviathan( I hear Tinker is a decent card...)
Green
Krosan Grip -----> Acidic Slime
Moment's Peace ----> Twinblade Slasher(See Serra Avenger)
Farseek -----> Mwonvuli Acid-Moss (Farseek was almost never played, Acid-Moss seems like a sweet tempo play)
Gaea's Anthem ----> Oracle of Mul Daya (The anthem needs to be in white, which it will be as soon as I get a Glorious. White card out, green card in)
Artifacts/Multicolor
Darksteel Colossus ----> Sundering Titan (If the LD gets to be too much, I may have to drop him. At least he can be reanimated though.)
Ethersworn Adjudicator ----> Sphinx of the Steel Wind (Tinker for Akroma is busted.)
Adds
Changes I might regret in the morning
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker ----> Blistering Firecat
Kumano, Master Yamabushi -----> Ravenous Baboons (the tempo swing seems way better than Kumano.)
Beacon of Unrest ---> Living Death (Seems good replacing a reanimator card with a reanimator archetype, but I'll miss the Beacon.)
Akroma's Vengeance ----> Day of Judgment (With aggro getting a boost, I felt another cheap sweeper would be necessary for control to stabilize. I hate that I have to ditch Vengeance, but the only other sweeper I'd consider dropping is Hallowed Burial, and it and I have too much history.)
Natural Order ----> Vines of Vastwood (Green Dispel plus Monstrous Growth seems AWESOME. Natural Order just never seems to go as planned, but I might miss it.)
The change that I really don't want to be associated with
Mana Vault ---> Basilisk Collar
This last one was a large discussion where my cube compatriots basically gave me the ultimatum of dropping Vault or Mind Twist. I feel Twist is necessary to punish 5 color Control, so it stays in and Vault gets the axe for a mediocre equipment. Not my decision, but then again, I want the cube to be fun for everybody. I don't run a cube tyranny.
Wow that took a long time to type. I'll update the OP later, for now I'm going to go grab a snack!
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
Sudden Shock ----> Words of War
Not really a fan of either. Smash to Smitherens seems more in Red's themes.
Battlegrace Angel ----> Kor Skyfisher
I like the inclusion of Skyfisher, but the Angel is pretty awesome both in aggro and control. I'd try to run both. Condemn is a control only card that I'd rather cut.
Krosan Grip -----> Acidic Slime
I like both here. Your green section is pretty solid though. Over Puncing Jaguar?
Farseek -----> Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
I have been thinking about this but haven't for two reasons. Firstly, Farseek is just too good. And secondly, although Acid looks like Plow Under 2.0 it's really not. The value of ramp (and to a lesser extent, LD) goes way down the more expensive the spell is (nobody is talking about Explosive Vegetation as a cube-worthy card, for instance).
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Magicmerl - I could fit Smash to Smithereens in the Keldon Vandals slot I suppose, and then maybe replace Words of War with the Vandals if it doesn't work out, but turning every draw into a Shock seems like an excellent way for a red deck to close out a game. I'm going to test it for awhile, and maybe it won't be impressive, but it can't hurt. Do you think Smash makes it over Keldon Vandals here? I think the Vandals are more maindeckable, but the damage on Smash is definitely more reliable. Since I've seen the Vandals in action before and have a general idea of their effectiveness, I'll replace them for now and test Smash to Smithereens.
Battlegrace Angel oftens just felt like Exalted Angel's little, less effective sister, so that's why she got the axe. You're right about Condemn though, it's a more exclusively control mage card. I'd drop Condemn for Battlegrace, but I agree with returning Paladin en-Vec, and I think he makes the cut over Battlegrace.
I am very against dropping Pouncing Jaguar. 2/x for 1 is the stuff aggro is built on, and another disenchant effect wouldn't make up for the loss of speed. If a spot opens up I'd be willing to return Krosan Grip, but for now I feel that the green section is too tight. Heck, I'm already trying to find slots for Wild Dogs and Woodfall Primus...
No love for the Acid-Moss? That's kind of surprising, but I can see your point. I'll put Farseek back in.
Humpty Dumpty - I considered both Fallout and Clasm for deletion, and ended up choosing Fallout as one more way to stop Rude Awakening. I'll keep an eye on it though, see if the double red gets in the way too often. Thank you for the heads up.
I'm missing Blink already, and we've only drafted this version of the cube once. I'm fairly certain that Plumeveil and Azorious Guildmage are going to end up being replaced with Momentary Blink and Grand Arbiter Augustin IV. I'm going to test that for a little bit I believe, after the stir from this big update dies down.
Yeah, I left Leviathan in U because it's not at all odd to see a blue deck hit 9 mana from Signets and draw-go, but effectively he was a replacement for DSC.
Kiki is in the same camp as Blink. I REALLY want him back, but don't know what to cut.
Hallowed Burial vs. Akroma's Vengeance - Yeah, Burial is kind of a sacred cow for me. I've three times now saved myself from decking by casting it, only to win the game with manlands before I finished drawing my dudes again. Too hilarious to cut in my opinion. Also, I think Austere Command is a better fit in the cube than Vengeance because it requires more decisions, and in general is slightly more skill intensive, which is always nice.
eidolon- Stonecloaker is the last of White's ability to blink that's left in the cube, and it would break my heart to have not a single blink effect. Once I fit Momentary Blink back into U/W I'll probably drop the underwhelming hoser, but until then something's going to have to give us our 187 fix...
I'll talk to my group about the Miraculous Recovery/Battlegrace Angel debate, we'll work something out.
It sounds like Living Death is the preferred card amongst everyone who commented, but as soon as a black slot comes up I'll but Beacon back in.
I can't drop Albino Troll for the same reason I can't drop Pouncing Jaguar. They're just too good in aggro. But, Farseek is back in.
Wow, thanks a billion for the URL! That will save me a LOT of time.
wtwlf - Well, since it seems unanimous, Paladin stays!
Amended Changes
Condemn ----> Paladin en-Vec
Mwonvuli Acid-Moss ---->Farseek
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Woodfall Primus or Terastodon (Not sure which is the better fit here.)
Anyone have any suggestions regarding what to cut, or any experience playing with the suggested cards that indicates I shouldn't bother trying to fit them in?
(Oh, I'm also still looking for these, but I'll wait until I actually get a copy to ask about them)
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
I have a green ramp theme in my cube, which is why I don't have room for little aggro dudes.
Silent Arbiter looks a bit meh from your extra guys.
I don't find Beacon questionable at all, as it's not only great for reanimator, but it shuts down Genesis and messes with Recurring Nightmare too. It hurt a lot to drop it, and I'll put it back as soon as I can.
The non-basics are taking up too much room in the packs now, I think. I'm pretty sure that I'm going to drop the Karoos and increase the number of each color by 2.
Also, I'm going to change the Vivids into the new manland cycle as soon as I get a set, I think. Even though the non-blue ones look bad, I think they'll often be better than the Vivids. Plus, it's a lot easier to put lands into the cube if I do it in cycles
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
You know, helping aggro includes adding the right support cards....
Edit: Just looked at your first post. With 50 cards in each colour, you need about 8 aggro dudes (2+ power, <=2 CMC), and you only reach that threshold in white. Green, Black and Red all need more aggro dudes.
Cool. I don't have Beacon in my cube but do want to extend the reanimator theme and Beacon seems like a decent way to do that.
I wouldn't. Because cube drafts are stacked full of quality, there has to be something to do with those other 22 cards you draft. Why not make a chunk of them non-basics so drafters are trying to sift 9-10 playables out of each pack rather than 7-8. I think that it increases the tension of the draft more (and makes non-basic hate more effective).
All the manduals are awesome. I don't know where they rate compared to the other cycles (saclands are #1 IMO, not sure about the rest). But I'm actively looking to have more lands in my cube than what I cap each colour at, for the reason stated above.
What do you mean about the right support cards? I'm genuinely interested here, as I'm not really an aggro player.
And yes, I'm aware that the dude count is low. That's why I'm trying to raise it with things like Wild Dogs and Nezumi Cutthroat...
EDIT - Just saw that 'Geddon was bolded. D'oh! That's one of my group's calls. They just don't like mass LD much. I'll try to convince them otherwise again.
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
Here's some non-graveyard equivalents: Tangle Wire, Winter Orb, Hokori.
I'm not really an aggro player either, but I looked at recategorising my cube with some slightly different categories.
The long and the short of it is this:
The first four groups of cards are what's important to make aggro viable.
My cube of 463 cards only 'supports' aggro in WBR (not G or U) and has the following counts:
Aggro 39 (8% of the entire cube)
Buff 28 (6%)
Racing 62 (13%)
Disruption 44 (10%)
That's including all of the lands, artifacts, multicoloured spells etc, which typically don't contain aggro cards in significant quantity.
If you want to read a few thousand words on the topic, Usman apparently wrote an article on it (that I contributed in a small way to).
This is what confused me. It sounds like you're advocating against these changes, but 3 of the 5 ARE part of the A-list. They certainly aren't tier 1 a-list, but I'm still working on getting anything awesome post-M10, remember.
Incidentally, you hit the Armageddon dilemma on the head. I do have Tangle Wire in because it can be dealt with in the form of removal, and have thought about adding Winter Orb for the same reason. Hokori might go over with the group, given that he can be burned out on the cheap. I'll probably find space for one or both in the next update, coming this Friday after I try to find a Vampire Lacerator, Bloodghast, and some other new bombs that people are willing to part with.
If I'm going to be honest, the Armageddon issue is that the others feel that any time you have a large amount of LD, you attract griefers to it, and 2 of my main group are recovering griefer addicts. I'm not talking about Spike, who genuinely wants to win, I'm talking about someone who plays Limited Resources.dec at a 10 person multiplayer table just to see how long they can keep the lock going. I'm talking about Armageddon backed up with cheap countermagic. It's the equivalent of Stasis, and it can easily take cube drafting from taking a few hours to lasting all night if done ad nauseum.
EDIT
Some more cards I'm hoping to add soon, and what I'll likely cut for them. All of these changes will attempt to lower the mana curve.
Jungle Lion (cutting Ravenous Baloth)
Vampire Lacerator (cutting Innocent Blood)
Bloodghast (cutting Grinning Demon)
Willbender (cutting Body Double)
Condescend (cutting Draining Whelk)
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.