As I'm sure you've all noticed by now, the proxy thread has been locked. We are not prepared at this time to say whether it will be reopened, there are grave legal concerns about the its impact on the future of MTGS and whether we can safely reopen it after the events of the last 24 hours.
What happened:
On March 22 at 12:25am PDT, Generalspuddog posted in the Proxy thread showing his newly printed cube, printed from Proxy thread renders onto cardstock by a printer in Hong Kong.
Over the course of the next 20 hours, a page and a half of discussion was generated on the subject and detailed exactly how to print and order counterfeit cards from this vendor.
This discussion was almost exclusively carried out by Proxy thread and Cube forum regulars. Zero posts were reported. Nobody warned them to cut it out. Our PM inboxes should have been lighting up like the London blitz with reports, but nobody took it upon themselves to do so.
The Proxy thread exists by walking a very fine line. We add extra artist credit lines everywhere, have organized reporting of illegal ebay conduct, and outlaw all discussion that could lead to the production of counterfeit cards. We do this because to fail on this line could result in the subpoenas of admins and MTGS receiving DMCA take-down notices. In short, the line is set to allow this site's very existence.
I understand that nobody here wants to see a friend infracted or suspended, but this refusal to flag illegal conduct has endangered the availability of the site for everyone. It is your duty to report posts and discussions like this if you value our community here. We caught this in less than a day, but this kind of thing endangers the site itself. It is simply unacceptable that it was allowed to occur without so much as a single report or cautionary post.
Generalspuddog has already been banned for this, and further action is being evaluated for the rest of the people involved.
Update:
Whether or not the proxy thread comes back, If you see anyone describing on MTGS how to print counterfeit cards, the methods behind them, or the sale of proxy or counterfeit cards, you are obligated to report it to the staff.
eds – New thread here. Please review the rules carefully.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Yes, the community is welcome & invited to comment on the situation here.
Currently I am looking at a push to return the thread to its roots, as an art appreciation station. To this end, it would likely be returned to Artwork sub, & effectively merged with the 56k digital thread. It will also have a heavier moderation presence, with a firm No Print Discussion rule in place.
I will be direct though – among the staff, there is heavy sentiment to just let this lay down for an indefinite period. It's a fantastic thread, but it is also an extreme liability for the entire community (not just Cubers)
Works for me I suppose. All I ask it that is it severely moderated.
My most immediate concern is the help in reporting of eBay auctions. TMAP thread was IMO, the de-facto thread for proxy making in the world. Getting the views it did allowed me to reach the widest audience. Something I'd really, really like to keep going.
After I realized Spuddog (sp?) said he PAID to have those printed, I was just waiting for this to happen. "That website" he did it through is just a general apparel\accessory\gift printing place, and is probably unaware of any problem(s). To them it's just another order\job. Even so, something he should have considered.
He should have thought a bit more before posting (especially mentioning he paid for the service--that's the big redflag). I'll admit I asked for clarification on what exactly he did to make his cube. His reply speaks for itself. Should have kept it to himself.
I hope the old thread can be revived in some fashion. I would understand if all discussion of "making proxies" was removed (a monumental task, considering the length of the thread). The idea of merging the proxy thread with the "digital alter" thread is promising. I just worry the thread will become a graveyard with the hand-painted alter thread right there above it.
Question. How does the staff feel about the custom sets? Some of the custom sets I've seen look great, and I would enjoy printing these out and playing with them.
WotC still own the frames, own the typography layout. That's the issue here, copyright.
Also, if you're using artwork that you don't own, there's that issue as well.
Personal use is one thing. Promoting others do it, or paying other to do it for you, that is where it gets ugly. We don't want to know, & we can't be seen directly facilitating that.
I could even play devil's advocate and see, from an IP point of view, how printing out custom sets could infringe on trademark. If a player printed out and played with custom sets, Wizards could argue that as "revenue lost" from that player not buying that many cards in the form of boosters.
I'm not trying to ruin a good thing with my post, as I sincerely appreciate the creativity of the custom set builders.
After some deliberation, and as difficult it was to come to the decision, I feel that the thread should not come back.
I did not see any of the posts in question, but if forum regulars were looking into getting cards printed, then it opened up an underlying murmur that doesn't need to come back.
People are willing to pay for their proxies. This also means that no matter how many auctions I see closed on eBay, another will pop-up. As stupid, lazy, and foolish it is, that's what the people want. I'm done giving them the resources.
A hobby should be a hobby.
To anyone that has my templates out there. Please do not distribute them. At this point, it's just not worth it anymore.
I don't think the proxy stuff should be on here anymore. If people use the images and templates to create/sell/distribute cards, the whole website is in jeopardy. People weren't reading the OP, weren't adhering to the rules, weren't adhering to the law, and mtgsalvation should have nothing to do with that. If people want to take their hobby that helps facilitate illegal activity to take place, they should take it to another website. We tried to let people play by the rules, and they just wouldn't listen.
The Proxy thread had 1.5 M views which was twice the amount of views the two most popular threads in this forum had combined. It didn't belong here, and I am very happy to see it gone.
I don't think the proxy stuff should be on here anymore. If people use the images and templates to create/sell/distribute cards, the whole website is in jeopardy. People weren't reading the OP, weren't adhering to the rules, weren't adhering to the law, and mtgsalvation should have nothing to do with that. If people want to take their hobby that helps facilitate illegal activity to take place, they should take it to another website. We tried to let people play by the rules, and they just wouldn't listen.
The problem being, the rules being broken were not by the users of the thread on a daily basis. Its very harsh to destroy something that many people have worked on just because some bad apples are plagerizing and trying to profit from the work. I, nor any other person who enjoyed the thread legally, should be punished with the destruction of it because of these people.
This is an unfortunate turn of events. I can say that I wouldn't even have a cube if it weren't for the proxy thread. Regardless of that, the thread does enable and, in some obscure manner, even encourage counterfeiting. For those of us who's hobby this is and nothing more, it is a real loss.
Is there perhaps some way to allow those of us who have adhered to, supported, and sought greater clarity of the rules access to a hidden forum where we can continue our hobby privately, and with greater accountability? This would solve the problem of lurkers pilfering our images, processes, and so forth.
The problem being, the rules being broken were not by the users of the thread on a daily basis. Its very harsh to destroy something that many people have worked on just because some bad apples are plagerizing and trying to profit from the work. I, nor any other person who enjoyed the thread legally, should be punished with the destruction of it because of these people.
Oh well. MTGS shouldn't put itself at risk over it. Even with all the protections in place, you couldn't prevent the thread from becoming a breeding ground for illegal activity. It's better to protect the site and close the threads, IMO.
Is there perhaps some way to allow those of us who have adhered to, supported, and sought greater clarity of the rules access to a hidden forum where we can continue our hobby privately, and with greater accountability? This would solve the problem of lurkers pilfering our images, processes, and so forth.
Not likely.
As I said, currently I am looking at a push to return the thread to its roots, as an art appreciation station. To this end, it would likely be returned to Artwork sub, & effectively merged with the 56k digital thread. It will also have a heavier moderation presence, with a firm No Print Discussion rule in place.
There is a lot of voice given in this thread that mirrors the staff sentiment of Put It Down, however.
I think that the thread was so large that it should be started over. To go back through the current one and remove all questionable posts...I think that this would be a hassle that would be better left alone. Starting over would give a better chance to police from the beginning. With new rules should come a new page. Linking to an archived thread in the first post seems ok though...no since losing all the stuff that has already been posted. The big change that I think should be put into place is a rule that says even the mention of doing anything other than creating proxies is an instant bannable offense.
I didn't get to see the content that has caused the issues here...but it sucks that someone who wasn't a regular in this section is causing everyone to be punished.
Why not put up an Agreement page before you can view this forum just like in the Sales Lot forum? That way you can't have any "I didn't know" excuses and to legitimately inform people. It will also require people to have an account with MTGS in order to view the proxies...that would be a "paper" trail...right?
While I am not nearly as talented as many people that post here...I really enjoy seeing what others can do. It sparks my creativity and forces me to learn new things about art and photoshop in general. I must admit that looking at some of the entries in the most recent contest blew me away...and introduced me to several new buttons and "tricks" in photoshop.
While I understand the liability that MTGS has for this and many of the other forums...I really hope that a gathering place such as this will have it's place.
This is an unfortunate turn of events. I can say that I wouldn't even have a cube if it weren't for the proxy thread.
This
Also I want to say that I know he broke the rules, and that warrants a suspension, but Happy Gilmore put nearly as much work into that thread as anyone and I think it's a huge shame that it is being shut down without him here to say anything.
I understand wanting to protect the forum, but it's sad to see a thread that had such a dedicated following and so much hard work thrown into it shut down.
Still I'm sure you'll make the best decision for mtgs as a whole.
As I said, currently I am looking at a push to return the thread to its roots, as an art appreciation station. To this end, it would likely be returned to Artwork sub, & effectively merged with the 56k digital thread. It will also have a heavier moderation presence, with a firm No Print Discussion rule in place.
There is a lot of voice given in this thread that mirrors the staff sentiment of Put It Down, however.
Merging the thread with some other thread does not solve the problem though. Increased moderation doesn't solve the problem either. Whether it's all one thread or multiple threads, the reality is that we create images that people can take and use as they wish without any accountability. The only thing that would do is make it harder for new counterfeiters to learn a working process, but does nothing to keep those who already do know how to produce them from continuing. Restricting access, as lame as that sounds, is the only way to deter abuse and truly moderate a subject as sensitive as this one is.
There is an anthropological principle that applies here that I won't bore you with you by going into in detail. The gist is that when a group requires an investment to be given entrance into (as most do), members of that group are less likely to abuse or otherwise jeopardize their continued access to that group for risk of losing out on all of the investment they put into gaining access to and maintaining inclusion in the group. Along with the inclusion investment which deters abuse comes protection from free riders (lurking/counterfeiting), those wishing to make zero investment and gain all the benefits of inclusion. Also, making it a hidden forum helps to protect mtgs by the same principle. Making what we create private and not available to any Tom, Dick, or Harry who comes waltzing through means there is a limited number of people who can be responsible for the counterfeiting of new materials (there isn't much that can be done about the current materials). Any discussion as sensitive as this last one was isn't available to anyone and doesn't present the same risk, though no less serious, that conversation being public does.
I like the idea of creating a new thread, or reviving the old one, as private or hidden. Reducing access to members only, while keeping the current level of moderation (not only from the mods themselves but from esteemed contributors like HG and Zeerbe) might help the situation.
Worth a test IMO. If that doesn't curb the problem, then sure just shut 'er down and be done with it. If you have digital images to share at that point, throw them on the 56k alters thread--without the mentioning of printing!
Its just a question without any offense.
Though I never looked at the thread I read here the members are indicted to not have done anything. But where are the mods here? Or lets ask it the other way to avoiod misunderstanding: Shouldnt such a potentially "dangerous" thread be looked more small meshed?
Again no offense to anyone :-), just a question because this "the members are guilty to all this" sounds a bit meeh to me.
Of course a big praise for the fast reaction
There are two mods that cover the cube forum. The limited mods have powers in here, but they pretty much stay out unless things go absolutely crazy.
Pringles had taken it upon himself to keep the proxy thread in line for leeching and artist creds, I just did a daily sweep for problematic discussion and flames.
At the time that this went down, I was studying for a final, holding off on my sweep until later that night and Pringles was on campus at his college. This all literally happened in less than a day and unfortunately when Pringles' and my activity was essentially sync'd.
I had salve up in the background, keeping a casual eye on the forums, but this wasn't something I was going to catch until I did my sweep without a report.
'Rax saw it first and at that point we went into triage, multiple admins and myself springing to clean it up.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Most of my forum software experience comes from phpBB but I am pretty sure that here is an option before a post is posted in a thread it needs to be approved by a moderator first. Would solve the problem of unwanted posts or posts that are not following the rules from ever being seen unless all rules are being followed. The only set back is you have to have a regular moderator to read and approve all those posts...
Most of my forum software experience comes from phpBB but I am pretty sure that here is an option before a post is posted in a thread it needs to be approved by a moderator first. Would solve the problem of unwanted posts or posts that are not following the rules from ever being seen unless all rules are being followed. The only set back is you have to have a regular moderator to read and approve all those posts...
It requires having an active mod 24/7 to be effective on boards as active as these. It just wouldn't be possible without doubling our mod staff and creating shifts.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Quote from votan »
:ER:, you suck as a hero
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What happened:
On March 22 at 12:25am PDT, Generalspuddog posted in the Proxy thread showing his newly printed cube, printed from Proxy thread renders onto cardstock by a printer in Hong Kong.
Over the course of the next 20 hours, a page and a half of discussion was generated on the subject and detailed exactly how to print and order counterfeit cards from this vendor.
This discussion was almost exclusively carried out by Proxy thread and Cube forum regulars. Zero posts were reported. Nobody warned them to cut it out. Our PM inboxes should have been lighting up like the London blitz with reports, but nobody took it upon themselves to do so.
The Proxy thread exists by walking a very fine line. We add extra artist credit lines everywhere, have organized reporting of illegal ebay conduct, and outlaw all discussion that could lead to the production of counterfeit cards. We do this because to fail on this line could result in the subpoenas of admins and MTGS receiving DMCA take-down notices. In short, the line is set to allow this site's very existence.
I understand that nobody here wants to see a friend infracted or suspended, but this refusal to flag illegal conduct has endangered the availability of the site for everyone. It is your duty to report posts and discussions like this if you value our community here. We caught this in less than a day, but this kind of thing endangers the site itself. It is simply unacceptable that it was allowed to occur without so much as a single report or cautionary post.
Generalspuddog has already been banned for this, and further action is being evaluated for the rest of the people involved.
Update:
Whether or not the proxy thread comes back,
If you see anyone describing on MTGS how to print counterfeit cards, the methods behind them, or the sale of proxy or counterfeit cards, you are obligated to report it to the staff.
eds – New thread here. Please review the rules carefully.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
This is what I get for watching TV for an evening. <big sigh>
Currently I am looking at a push to return the thread to its roots, as an art appreciation station. To this end, it would likely be returned to Artwork sub, & effectively merged with the 56k digital thread. It will also have a heavier moderation presence, with a firm No Print Discussion rule in place.
I will be direct though – among the staff, there is heavy sentiment to just let this lay down for an indefinite period. It's a fantastic thread, but it is also an extreme liability for the entire community (not just Cubers)
What does this do to the proxy thread in Artwork already?
My most immediate concern is the help in reporting of eBay auctions. TMAP thread was IMO, the de-facto thread for proxy making in the world. Getting the views it did allowed me to reach the widest audience. Something I'd really, really like to keep going.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
He should have thought a bit more before posting (especially mentioning he paid for the service--that's the big redflag). I'll admit I asked for clarification on what exactly he did to make his cube. His reply speaks for itself. Should have kept it to himself.
I hope the old thread can be revived in some fashion. I would understand if all discussion of "making proxies" was removed (a monumental task, considering the length of the thread). The idea of merging the proxy thread with the "digital alter" thread is promising. I just worry the thread will become a graveyard with the hand-painted alter thread right there above it.
Also, if you're using artwork that you don't own, there's that issue as well.
Personal use is one thing. Promoting others do it, or paying other to do it for you, that is where it gets ugly. We don't want to know, & we can't be seen directly facilitating that.
I could even play devil's advocate and see, from an IP point of view, how printing out custom sets could infringe on trademark. If a player printed out and played with custom sets, Wizards could argue that as "revenue lost" from that player not buying that many cards in the form of boosters.
I'm not trying to ruin a good thing with my post, as I sincerely appreciate the creativity of the custom set builders.
I did not see any of the posts in question, but if forum regulars were looking into getting cards printed, then it opened up an underlying murmur that doesn't need to come back.
People are willing to pay for their proxies. This also means that no matter how many auctions I see closed on eBay, another will pop-up. As stupid, lazy, and foolish it is, that's what the people want. I'm done giving them the resources.
A hobby should be a hobby.
To anyone that has my templates out there. Please do not distribute them. At this point, it's just not worth it anymore.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Joy of Cubing Podcast
My 600 Card Unpowered Cube
My Combo Cube
The problem being, the rules being broken were not by the users of the thread on a daily basis. Its very harsh to destroy something that many people have worked on just because some bad apples are plagerizing and trying to profit from the work. I, nor any other person who enjoyed the thread legally, should be punished with the destruction of it because of these people.
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
Is there perhaps some way to allow those of us who have adhered to, supported, and sought greater clarity of the rules access to a hidden forum where we can continue our hobby privately, and with greater accountability? This would solve the problem of lurkers pilfering our images, processes, and so forth.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
Oh well. MTGS shouldn't put itself at risk over it. Even with all the protections in place, you couldn't prevent the thread from becoming a breeding ground for illegal activity. It's better to protect the site and close the threads, IMO.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Not likely.
As I said, currently I am looking at a push to return the thread to its roots, as an art appreciation station. To this end, it would likely be returned to Artwork sub, & effectively merged with the 56k digital thread. It will also have a heavier moderation presence, with a firm No Print Discussion rule in place.
There is a lot of voice given in this thread that mirrors the staff sentiment of Put It Down, however.
I didn't get to see the content that has caused the issues here...but it sucks that someone who wasn't a regular in this section is causing everyone to be punished.
Why not put up an Agreement page before you can view this forum just like in the Sales Lot forum? That way you can't have any "I didn't know" excuses and to legitimately inform people. It will also require people to have an account with MTGS in order to view the proxies...that would be a "paper" trail...right?
While I am not nearly as talented as many people that post here...I really enjoy seeing what others can do. It sparks my creativity and forces me to learn new things about art and photoshop in general. I must admit that looking at some of the entries in the most recent contest blew me away...and introduced me to several new buttons and "tricks" in photoshop.
While I understand the liability that MTGS has for this and many of the other forums...I really hope that a gathering place such as this will have it's place.
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
This
Also I want to say that I know he broke the rules, and that warrants a suspension, but Happy Gilmore put nearly as much work into that thread as anyone and I think it's a huge shame that it is being shut down without him here to say anything.
I understand wanting to protect the forum, but it's sad to see a thread that had such a dedicated following and so much hard work thrown into it shut down.
Still I'm sure you'll make the best decision for mtgs as a whole.
Merging the thread with some other thread does not solve the problem though. Increased moderation doesn't solve the problem either. Whether it's all one thread or multiple threads, the reality is that we create images that people can take and use as they wish without any accountability. The only thing that would do is make it harder for new counterfeiters to learn a working process, but does nothing to keep those who already do know how to produce them from continuing. Restricting access, as lame as that sounds, is the only way to deter abuse and truly moderate a subject as sensitive as this one is.
There is an anthropological principle that applies here that I won't bore you with you by going into in detail. The gist is that when a group requires an investment to be given entrance into (as most do), members of that group are less likely to abuse or otherwise jeopardize their continued access to that group for risk of losing out on all of the investment they put into gaining access to and maintaining inclusion in the group. Along with the inclusion investment which deters abuse comes protection from free riders (lurking/counterfeiting), those wishing to make zero investment and gain all the benefits of inclusion. Also, making it a hidden forum helps to protect mtgs by the same principle. Making what we create private and not available to any Tom, Dick, or Harry who comes waltzing through means there is a limited number of people who can be responsible for the counterfeiting of new materials (there isn't much that can be done about the current materials). Any discussion as sensitive as this last one was isn't available to anyone and doesn't present the same risk, though no less serious, that conversation being public does.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
Worth a test IMO. If that doesn't curb the problem, then sure just shut 'er down and be done with it. If you have digital images to share at that point, throw them on the 56k alters thread--without the mentioning of printing!
There are two mods that cover the cube forum. The limited mods have powers in here, but they pretty much stay out unless things go absolutely crazy.
Pringles had taken it upon himself to keep the proxy thread in line for leeching and artist creds, I just did a daily sweep for problematic discussion and flames.
At the time that this went down, I was studying for a final, holding off on my sweep until later that night and Pringles was on campus at his college. This all literally happened in less than a day and unfortunately when Pringles' and my activity was essentially sync'd.
I had salve up in the background, keeping a casual eye on the forums, but this wasn't something I was going to catch until I did my sweep without a report.
'Rax saw it first and at that point we went into triage, multiple admins and myself springing to clean it up.
You've seen everything after that.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
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It requires having an active mod 24/7 to be effective on boards as active as these. It just wouldn't be possible without doubling our mod staff and creating shifts.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules