Bro, that just makes it look like you think everyone is stupid.
you could have given the same information out, about looking out for bad traders, without being an unfair trader yourself. if you really wanted to inform readers about this unfair process.
NO!! i dont agree with you jmendina, you inspire in others, hateful thoughts.
it is wrong to advocate personal greed, and taking advantage of other people.
you spend your whole life trying to rort magic trades.
you do not help make ppl "Savvy" as you say, you encourage ppl to rip off other players, as though it were the prime importance of playing magic.
learn what "Good Sportmanship" and the word "Honesty" means
also, dont try to treat me like a naive idiot, jmendina, you are as easy to read as book. you do not "inform" players, you gloat over ripping ppl off..
i can easily tell the diffence,
also if your ever in Australia at a PTQ, i would *love* to catch up with you in person, i take great offence from attitudes like yours
Ponder
I've received countless emails about people that I have educated or inspired through my writing. The truth is self-evident here.
As for thinking people are stupid, I don't think that the lack of knowledge in some area of magic, makes a person "stupid". I know that some people don't understand the finance side of magic (maybe thats not you, this is ok), I bring something of value to those people.
It sounds like my writing is not for you, and I'm OK with that.
I promote education. I encourage people to educate themselves and use that knowledge to gain value via buying, selling and trading Magic cards, nothing more.
I promote education. I encourage people to educate themselves and use that knowledge to gain value via buying, selling and trading Magic cards, nothing more.
Ya, after they read your blog about how badly they just got wrecked in a trade.
I'd just be honest with them up front. "You know you're under about $8 on this trade? Ya? Cool."
Sometimes the burden of educating the other party lies on you ...up front. And it'll still be okay with most people. So long as you've done your due-diligence to promote a fair, open and honest trade.
Quote from SIC »
ps: I bought my Volrath's Stronghold, Mox Diamond and Wasteland for a grand total of 30 pence. That's about 50 cents, to my american fellows. Does this make me a horrible person?
Not so long as the party you got them from knew what they were worth before they made an informed decision on getting torn a new one.
I think you're a bit too worked up over this. If you don't like people being ripped off don't trade. It isn't your responsibly if someone else gets ripped off.
I think you're a bit too worked up over this. If you don't like people being ripped off don't trade. It isn't your responsibly if someone else gets ripped off.
No, it's not Ponder's responsibility. The responsibility lies for the parties in the trade. But only if you value being open and honest in business.
You can still be profitable and be honest. You don't have to make the decision to be one or the other.
I think it's cool that when this is all over, you can say that you turned a booster pack into a mox. I really do.
But for me, I'd like to add the caveat that I did it with all trading parties being satisfied with the trades along the way.
That would be important to me. It may take a little longer, but it's something I'd take pride in.
You make a strong point.
To be fair, I haven't read any comments from any of my trade partners that showed dissatisfaction with a P2P Trade.
There was only one comment that could even be considered and it was because the price was not available so I posted the more expensive English version price, to which they responded "Wow, I didn't know X card was worth that much." I clarified about the price difference between English and the other language.
To be fair, I haven't read any comments from any of my trade partners that showed dissatisfaction with a P2P Trade.
There was only one comment that could even be considered and it was because the price was not available so I posted the more expensive English version price, to which they responded "Wow, I didn't know X card was worth that much." I clarified about the price difference between English and the other language.
It's all good man.
Like I said, almost everybody will still be okay with trading to your advantage so long as you're up front with them about it.
And it's not too late to say: "from this point out, I'll make sure everybody knows that they're trading to my advantage".
The project will still work, I assure you. You'll just be able to appease all the folks that question the integrity of the project (whether you think it's important or not).
Just food for thought, bro.
Like you said, we're all part of the MTG "brotherhood" of sorts. I have an equal desire to A) see your project be a success, and B) defend the level of trading professionalism I extend to my trading partners. That's all.
I think P2P is a funny experiment.
I don't see anything wrong with trading to your own benifit, and hope you don't think the entire cube forum think you are an evil spawn of satan.
I take honor in making good trades and buy/sell cards at the right time. The most recent is my 3 candelabras (too bad I didn't get the forth). Sometimes your right and win some money and sometimes your wrong and lose a bit.
When we're talking anyhing below trading a basic land for a mox, I don't think there's really a problem with trades that are a valuewise a bit to one of the persons benifit.
I think you're a bit too worked up over this. If you don't like people being ripped off don't trade. It isn't your responsibly if someone else gets ripped off.
no your right its not my responsibilty..
i took extreme offense at jmendina suggesting he was performing some kind of community service, hes gloating over rorting ppl in trades.
i guess ppl have a different opinion of what intelligence is.
i think personal greed is not a sign of intelligence, however i feel that altruism at least requires some thought into the effects and repercussions of our actions.
i have never supported the kind of ppl that say "just tell this 14YO scrub that trading some mythics for some commons is sweet" i will never be a part of a trade that actively tries to rip a third party.
and will tell ppl if i think there in the process of getting ripped off.
and sorry, but i have had to ask ppl to "have a quiet word with me, outside."
i think that good sportmanship, and at least the fundamental level of ethics and respect for the fellow players of the game is paramount.
after all its a game for ten year olds, guys, and my regular games shop sometimes drafts with an eight year old girl and her sixty something year old grandmother. they might not be good players, but at least they are good people.
Like you said, we're all part of the MTG "brotherhood" of sorts. I have an equal desire to A) see your project be a success, and B) defend the level of trading professionalism I extend to my trading partners. That's all.
A) The project was a huge success, I did get there, thanks to my trade partners.
B) I understand what you are saying about letting people know, but anyone who is familiar with my work via SCG, ManaNation or Twitter, knows that I never withhold financial information from people when asked.
If someone asks me a question at the trade table I answer it honestly and to the best of my ability.
I spend hours every week- producing articles with the latest card trends (see below), doing Podcasts where I comment on the topics of MTG Finance, and updating my Twitter following on what cards to pick up and which ones to ship.
My approach is this. I spend all this time weekly giving the information out, so when I hit the trade tables, you guys are on your own. I am a reasonable and polite trader and I'm always willing to work with my trade partner. All my partner has to do is bring his / her knowledge.
My approach is this. I spend all this time weekly giving the information out, so when I hit the trade tables, you guys are on your own. I am a reasonable and polite trader and I'm always willing to work with my trade partner. All my partner has to do is bring his / her knowledge.
Great. But for me, even when my trading partner doesn't bring his/her knowledge (or obviously doesn't have enough) I'll enlighten them... even at the cost of the trade if need-be.
Like I said before, 95% or more of your trades would've happened exactly the same way, regardless. But for those 5% that didn't know what kind of trade-savvy shark they were swimming with, a little honesty would've both educated them, and increased the integrity of the trading community as a whole. And as you said, education about the process of trading was a benefit of the project itself. There's no reason that education couldn't take place during the process, rather than as a result of the project.
Great. But for me, even when my trading partner doesn't bring his/her knowledge (or obviously doesn't have enough) I'll enlighten them... even at the cost of the trade if need-be.
Like I said before, 95% or more of your trades would've happened exactly the same way, regardless. But for those 5% that didn't know what kind of trade-savvy shark they were swimming with, a little honesty would've both educated them, and increased the integrity of the trading community as a whole. And as you said, education about the process of trading was a benefit of the project itself. There's no reason that education couldn't take place during the process, rather than as a result of the project.
Great. But for me, even when my trading partner doesn't bring his/her knowledge (or obviously doesn't have enough) I'll enlighten them... even at the cost of the trade if need-be.
Like I said before, 95% or more of your trades would've happened exactly the same way, regardless. But for those 5% that didn't know what kind of trade-savvy shark they were swimming with, a little honesty would've both educated them, and increased the integrity of the trading community as a whole. And as you said, education about the process of trading was a benefit of the project itself. There's no reason that education couldn't take place during the process, rather than as a result of the project.
Cheers.
I think this is the way to approach it. I have no problem with someone making a profit on a trade. But realistically, neither party should be doubling their value on a per-trade basis. If you know you're getting more than say, 20%, you really should inform the other party, for ethics sake. I remember (perhaps wrongly) some of the trades on the P2P series were egregious offenders, like $60 of cards for $20.
Maybe it's just that Jon uses store buy prices for the value of his cards. j/k
Also, it's really just the oddities in the P2P that I have a problem with. Jon's a pretty funny guy on the podcasts I've heard, and would probably be cool to hang out with. Just watch your binder.
I can post my tournament schedule if you like. Then you can fulfill your purpose in life.
I still have to go to work every day, so even with the schedule, I wouldn't be able to follow you around and enlighten your trade partners.
I think the biggest problem with your series and your ethics when it comes to trading is that you willingly and knowingly rip people off. Not only that, but then you basically brag about it in your articles.
Trading a $15 dollar card for a $20 dollar card and not saying anything about the price difference is one thing, but taking a guy for nearly $50 bucks? That's a little ridiculous. Why didn't you speak up there? I mean, I know it's your goal in the trades to come out ahead, but even you gotta see the obvious advantage you had over this guy. Seriously, why didn't you say to the guy, "Pick out a couple more, I got you by like $40 dollars here." I agree that the information is out there and he should have taken the time to know what his cards were worth, but it's obvious that he had no idea. I think as a trader and even a savvy card shark like yourself, it's then your job to educate that person instead of using his lack of knowledge to your advantage. That's when it starts to become a shady business.
I still have to go to work every day, so even with the schedule, I wouldn't be able to follow you around and enlighten your trade partners.
I think the biggest problem with your series and your ethics when it comes to trading is that you willingly and knowingly rip people off. Not only that, but then you basically brag about it in your articles.
Trading a $15 dollar card for a $20 dollar card and not saying anything about the price difference is one thing, but taking a guy for nearly $50 bucks? That's a little ridiculous. Why didn't you speak up there? I mean, I know it's your goal in the trades to come out ahead, but even you gotta see the obvious advantage you had over this guy. Seriously, why didn't you say to the guy, "Pick out a couple more, I got you by like $40 dollars here." I agree that the information is out there and he should have taken the time to know what his cards were worth, but it's obvious that he had no idea. I think as a trader and even a savvy card shark like yourself, it's then your job to educate that person instead of using his lack of knowledge to your advantage. That's when it starts to become a shady business.
I goto work every day. I've worked a job since I was 16 years old, sometimes two.
As far as trading goes, my philosophy is very simple. It's based on 3 pillars of truth.
1) The value of a card is relative, meaning that a cards "worth" is measured differently by different people. Rather than try to be a reader of minds, I simply ask my trade partner's what they value the card at. Sometimes they use money to measure it, sometimes they simply line it up against other cards and sometimes they'll take a slice of pizza for it.
This is where people really misunderstand what I do. If someone asks me to value a card, I simply tell them what I am willing to pay. If they ask me the market value, I will tell them to the best of my knowledge what it is. Sometimes they accept, sometimes they reject my pricing and sometimes they counter. All of these responses are OK. Which leads me to truth number two.
2) No one is forcing anyone to trade. People have the ability to say "no" - they should exercise that ability if they are not OK with the trade. If they are OK with the trade then my relative value has matched their relative value and all things are in sync in the universe. If they are concerned with monetary value more than relative value then I expect them to know what cards are worth monetarily, thats three.
3) There is no reason for someone to lose money on a trade if they truly don't want to. Do your homework, don't expect me to do it for you (the collective). If you know that you are not knowledgeable in pricing and you don't want to lose value in trades, then don't trade.
It's pretty presumptuous to say, "I don't want to learn pricing (if you wanted to learn you would). I'm going to trade anyway and if you don't make sure that I'm getting a deal then you're a douche!"
Trading is not a requirement. My trade binder is not something that you automatically (the collective) have a right to. It's a service that I provide. I allow players to use their cards as currency, and there is an exchange rate for that service.
It does, but according to Pringlesman's red text earlier, we're not allowed to actually write what that stance seems to be. And you still didn't answer my question.
1) There's relative value of a card as in what my (non Magic playing) dad values a Black Lotus at and what I value it at. There's also relative value of a card as in the casual player that has no use for the hot new card in standard, and is willing to trade it straight up for the jank card he needs for his casual deck. The people that value the cards that way have no desire to look up the monetary values. If my dad came across a Black Lotus in a yard sale for a dollar, it's a good possibility that he'd just pass it up or even throw it away. If I were to tell him what he's got and what the monetary value of it is, he might be more inclined to try to get the better deal. Someone who offers up a card to you at a price that's obviously incorrect probably isn't giving you his relative value of the card. He's giving you his monetary value of the card (he did phrase his answer in the form of currency) and he's wrong about it. Instead of telling him he was wrong and educating the poor sap, you took advantage of him and blatantly ripped him off. Basing a trade on relative value is only ok if both parties understand and are ok with the trade even after it goes down and more information is introduced. Just because someone is willing to trade you a Lotus for a slice of pizza, doesn't make it right to do so.
2.) People do have the power to say no, but if they don't have all the information and don't realize they're getting ripped off, why would they? If you're up front with them and tell them you're getting them for a good $40 bucks, and they're still cool, then I agree with you. Ripping someone off and then saying, "He coulda said no" is a heck of a shady way of justifying your actions.
3.) I agree with doing homework and knowing what you've got before offering it up to the people. I don't think you should have to do people's homework for them. But I think taking advantage of people who didn't bother to do that homework or are just generally bad at it is no way to trade. If someone doesn't know, I feel like it's your job to educate them.
So, to reiterate my original question: Why didn't you tell the guy you had almost $50 dollars more on that trade? Why not allow him to close that gap a little? Most everyone wants to come out to the good on a trade, but $50 dollars on a trade of that magnitude is a little excessive. He basically gave you that much in free cards and you let him unknowingly do it.
I've got a question for both sides; how do you feel about the garage sale black lotus scenario? If you saw someone selling a bulk box with power in it, would you tell them what it was worth or would you make a lowball offer for it?
I'm gonna be honest and say that I'd probably low ball them. Yet I wouldn't do the same thing to someone at a shop offering to trade it for my wurmcoil engine or whatever. The reason being is that making those unbalanced trades gives the entire community a bad reputation and can be a discouraging factor for new players, but the garage sale person really has no connection to anything so you're only hurting that one person not the community as a whole. I'm not saying that makes it any more acceptable to rip them off, but from a pragmatic perspective it has much less possible backlash.
Great. But for me, even when my trading partner doesn't bring his/her knowledge (or obviously doesn't have enough) I'll enlighten them... even at the cost of the trade if need-be.
this is what it comes down to for me. on the one hand, you have the medina method where if someone is willing to let themselves get ripped off you go ahead and rip them off (and maybe later they find out, and maybe tell other people). in my opinion, this is destructive to the community. it promotes dishonesty and distrust. i could see someone getting disillusioned with magic over something like that. on the other hand, you have wtwlf's method, which promotes trust in the community and encourages fair behavior. they may well pass this on to their own trading partners which can encourage people to play more magic and do more trading.
the worst part of the magic community, in my opinion, is the ☺☺☺☺ you attitude toward casual players and newcomers. sure, you will trade with people less educated than you. but maybe they don't know where to get educated. maybe they're on their way but they're not there yet. maybe instead of taking them to the cleaners, you could explain the basics to them or point them in the right direction. i understand that you're doing this for your readers to a certain extent, but when it's at the expense of your trade partners it kind of cancels out.
when someone starts playing magic, goes to an fnm, and everyone there acts like they're an idiot for not understand the game and takes advantage of them, that is bad for the game. it can reduce the player base which supports the game's existence. i feel that aggressive trading like what we're discussing can have the same effect.
from reading your comments here, i get the sense that you're not an awful human being, and it's just a difference in perspective. but i hope you can understand where some of us are coming from.
Someone who offers up a card to you at a price that's obviously incorrect probably isn't giving you his relative value of the card. He's giving you his monetary value of the card (he did phrase his answer in the form of currency) and he's wrong about it. Instead of telling him he was wrong and educating the poor sap, you took advantage of him and blatantly ripped him off. Basing a trade on relative value is only ok if both parties understand and are ok with the trade even after it goes down and more information is introduced. Just because someone is willing to trade you a Lotus for a slice of pizza, doesn't make it right to do so.
i think this sums it up more eloquently than i was managing to do.
I've got a question for both sides; how do you feel about the garage sale black lotus scenario? If you saw someone selling a bulk box with power in it, would you tell them what it was worth or would you make a lowball offer for it?
this is a tough call. it has no effect on the community, which is a big part of what i object to in pack to power. it's kind of like finding a lotus in the garbage. but all the same i think i would probably tell them what it was worth. i would certainly struggle with the decision in any case.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I've got a question for both sides; how do you feel about the garage sale black lotus scenario? If you saw someone selling a bulk box with power in it, would you tell them what it was worth or would you make a lowball offer for it?
I'm gonna be honest and say that I'd probably low ball them. Yet I wouldn't do the same thing to someone at a shop offering to trade it for my wurmcoil engine or whatever. The reason being is that making those unbalanced trades gives the entire community a bad reputation and can be a discouraging factor for new players, but the garage sale person really has no connection to anything so you're only hurting that one person not the community as a whole. I'm not saying that makes it any more acceptable to rip them off, but from a pragmatic perspective it has much less possible backlash.
At the very least, the community at large should agree not to rip people off that would feel bad about it afterward, because you're both still going to be a part of the community, and like you say, will hurt people. We really don't want that.
For stuff like garage sales, it's expected that you either do your research before selling 'old crap' or submit that everyone finds great deals at garage sales. I have no idea why people don't do a little bit of research for something that is a collectible item.
Quote from qq »
from reading your comments here, i get the sense that you're not an awful human being, and it's just a difference in perspective. but i hope you can understand where some of us are coming from.
I think it largely stems that Medina views his trading primarily like a business, rather than from a player's perspective. There isn't anything wrong with this approach, but there's a difference between how he approaches trading, and how many other players perform and approach trading. And that can cause some odd things when viewed from the outside.
also i want to add that this is one of the more entertaining discussions i've seen in this forum and i want to thank jonathan medina for taking part in a classy way (even if i think his trading practices are anything but).
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
also i want to add that this is one of the more entertaining discussions i've seen in this forum and i want to thank jonathan medina for taking part in a classy way (even if i think his trading practices are anything but).
if i went to a store that did business that way i wouldn't go back.
I mean it in the sense that stores buy cards low and sell high, similarly to trading with a large price disparity. Really, the only difference is that when trading, Medina isn't wearing a shirt with his storefront logo.
After reading Medina's stuff, I see his perspective and I get it. I used to do the exact same thing when I was a kid, since "it's not my problem" if the other party wasn't educated enough to know the relative value of his cards. My primary goal at that time was to increase the value of my collection for as little expenditure as possible. It was like a game within the game. Pack to Power demonstrates this, and quite well.
As I grew up, my philosophies changed. Now when I trade, I'm not out to gain value at all costs, I'm out to have a good time and tweak my collection. To the best of my ability, I try and make fair trades, because I'd want the same treatment from another person, whether it's trading Magic cards, buying a car, negotiating prices for house repairs, whatever. I, like anyone else, don't mind getting the upside of deal, but if there's some egregious gap in value, I don't like to let that slide. But that's just me.
Medina's trading philosophies strike me as business-like and tournament-esque, while there's lots of us here that seem to take a more casual approach to trading. He takes positive value and monetary gains very seriously and others here don't. I think it's perfectly fine to measure your trades down to the cent, that's just not the way I choose to trade. It's like playing a game of Magic; you can play in a more strict tournament style or just casually. Trading practices aren't much different than that, and there's nothing wrong with either. I just personally don't care for Medina's "hold harmless" stance, and subsequently making an example of people.
Nevertheless, the project and series (on an theoretical level) was great, it was very cool to see the journey as it unfolded.
I've got a question for both sides; how do you feel about the garage sale black lotus scenario? If you saw someone selling a bulk box with power in it, would you tell them what it was worth or would you make a lowball offer for it?
I'm gonna be honest and say that I'd probably low ball them. Yet I wouldn't do the same thing to someone at a shop offering to trade it for my wurmcoil engine or whatever. The reason being is that making those unbalanced trades gives the entire community a bad reputation and can be a discouraging factor for new players, but the garage sale person really has no connection to anything so you're only hurting that one person not the community as a whole. I'm not saying that makes it any more acceptable to rip them off, but from a pragmatic perspective it has much less possible backlash.
Medina said it best when he described the whole MTG community as a "brotherhood" of sorts. When I'm doing deals with other Magic players, I wanna say something like: "I'm still up on you by like $20... keep digging for more stuff".
When dealing with the public, I feel largely the same way. There was a time where I wouldn't. But if I come up to some nice people selling their son's Magic collection at a yard sale after he's gone off to college, I'd be straight with them. I'd let them know they're worth more than they have them priced at, and see what their motives for selling are. I could say something like "If you listed all this stuff individually on eBay and really put some effort into finding out and inventorying what you've got here, there's a good chance you could make quite a bit of money off of these cards".
In the same token, if they took them to their LGS and sold them for cash, what would they get there? 25%? I'd probably make 'em an offer similar to what they'd get from a LGS if they took the collection there. And I'd be honest that I thought I was getting a good deal. And I'd also be honest that they could make more on eBay. Most people won't care. I may even offer to help them inventory the stuff. I'd tell them that it's worth a lot, but if you want to unload it in bulk, you'll get offers of about $X or so from a various local dealer.
If they say they don't give a crap, they're just crotchety old people that want to sell their stuff fast, then I'll buy it. But they can't say I didn't warn them.
..........
In fact, I HAVE done something similar to this in the past before. There was a kid who came into our LGS with his older brothers MTG collection, which was full of valuable broken stuff. I sat down with him (and had him call his mom over to the store) and helped them sort through what they had. Do I sometimes wish that I had told him it was all crap and scooped it up for $20? Sure! But it doesn't outweigh how I felt when I helped them realize they had a few grand worth of stuff in front of them. He was gonna sell it to a kid at school for really cheap, and they were grateful that someone was honest with them.
I never told the LGS owner about that kid's visit... in the expectation that I'd be banned from the store forever.
..........
TL;DR: Integrity is important to me.
Quote from bwian »
I mean it in the sense that stores buy cards low and sell high, similarly to trading with a large price disparity. Really, the only difference is that when trading, Medina isn't wearing a shirt with his storefront logo.
Except when you sell to a store, you know they're gonna sell it for more than they paid you for it. They have to pay to maintain the store. And they tell you outright, 25% of value in cash, 50% of value in trade... which do you want? They won't tell you, ya, I'll give you $5 because I value it at $5, when they really value it at $20. If they did that, I'd never do business with them again, because it's unethical. Ethics is important in a business; being forthright with your customers is the difference between an honest business and a bad business.
When you're trading with a fellow Magic player, I expect the trades to be fair and even. "About $20 for about $20? Great trade!" I'm not trading with a for profit company, I'm trading with another member of "the brotherhood".
when i lived in st augustine the store i frequented was run very fairly, at least when i did business with them. of course, i made the effort to be educated about pricing and i was very selective on what i bought, so maybe the guy was fair with me because he knew i'd stop coming if he wasn't. i spent a LOT of money at this store (basically all the important cards i own came from there) so i expect he valued me as a customer. but it was a great store and he was a great owner and i could trust him to treat me right without looking up every single card value. not everyone is out to steal from the customer, business or not. remember, we're not talking about just buying low and selling high. i understand that. we're talking about outright lying to your trading partners.
in any event, in my opinion the point of trading is to skip the value hit you take when you go through a store. if my trading partner is going to trade like that, what's the point of trading with him? i might as well just go to a store (which will have a better selection and clearly marked prices) and get store credit. the entire point of person to person trading is invalidated if you trade like a store owner. it's all the downsides of store trading and none of the upsides.
If you don't like uneven (read: not unfair) trades, you are probably the same kind of person, that would give back the change, if you get too much back in the supermarket. I'm not that person, but more power to you if you are.
i am that person.
regarding uneven but not unfair, that's not what we're talking about. uneven trades are just fine as long as both parties are informed and happy. we're specifically talking about unfair trades where you're looking at a difference of $40-$50 specifically because the other party didn't know what they had and his trade partner did.
So my rambling just ends with - if you look down on Medina and what he's doing, take a look at yourself first. Are you the angel that you claim to be? What are you doing that gives you the right to judge him? And do you really pass your judgement, just so you can feel better about yourself?
it's as simple as this: when i trade, do i trade fair or do i actively try to rip off my partner by misleading them? the answer is i trade fair. he doesn't. it's not very complicated and has nothing to do with looking down on anyone or feeling better about myself. it has to do with what's better for the community.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
This was not a very helpful post (mine, not Jonathan's). I saw an opportunity for a cheap gag and just went for it. Apologies for that.
@jmedina: I appreciate that you have engaged with this debate constructively, which is much to your credit.
One thing about which I am curious is whether the Pack to Power quest made any change to your approach to trading? Do you think that you became so caught up in the game of trading up that you became less conscious of the affect of your trades on other people?
@everyone else: there have been some comments about the absolute differential in specific trades e.g. that someone was "ripped off" by $50. Given that the aim of Pack to Power was to make a net profit of over $300 dollars, and that most people seem to agree that a small disparity in trades is OK, what is the minimum number of trades that Mr Medina "should" have made to achieve his goal?
Value in a trade is highly mutable. I am fortunate that I am in a relatively well paid job, but one that leaves me little time for my hobbies such as magic. Because I am (relatively) cash rich and time poor I am happy to pay a premium to my local trader to get the cards I want to put in my cube. He gives me 50% list price plus 25% of that if I go for store credit (i.e. 62.5% list price). This is a significantly worse deal than the majority of Mr Medina's trades, I suspect.
Because this is my default, almost any trade I can make after my infrequent drafts at the local games club is likely to give me better value than one with my local trader. I play only current limited formats and cube, so any card that is valuable to a standard/extended/EDH/whatever player is worthless to me. This grants me the privileged position where I can make trades with other gamers that leave both of us better off (although my friendly commercial dealer will be out of a sale, and I don't want him to go bust.)
I think what would irritate me is if I overheard someone boasting about how they had somehow got one over on me in a trade. In some respects the Pack to Power articles read like this, and I think it is this that makes me most unsettled.
Final caveat: my best trade ever was a single foil Chrome Mox for a playset of HP Volcanic Island and a playset of HP Tropical Island. This was back in the day when the mox was being super hyped and before legacy made the Blue Duals worth more than their weight in gold. I fail to feel bad about it because the trade was made with the same local trader I now cheerfully pay a 37.5% premium to on every trade.
This post was a little longer than I intended, but I hope that is preferable to just making a cheap shot.
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That reminds me Wtwlf, do you still do online trades/sales here on MTGS? I remember seeing your trade thread a while ago and it had awesome stuff I wanted.
I've received countless emails about people that I have educated or inspired through my writing. The truth is self-evident here.
As for thinking people are stupid, I don't think that the lack of knowledge in some area of magic, makes a person "stupid". I know that some people don't understand the finance side of magic (maybe thats not you, this is ok), I bring something of value to those people.
It sounds like my writing is not for you, and I'm OK with that.
I promote education. I encourage people to educate themselves and use that knowledge to gain value via buying, selling and trading Magic cards, nothing more.
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Ya, after they read your blog about how badly they just got wrecked in a trade.
I'd just be honest with them up front. "You know you're under about $8 on this trade? Ya? Cool."
Sometimes the burden of educating the other party lies on you ...up front. And it'll still be okay with most people. So long as you've done your due-diligence to promote a fair, open and honest trade.
Not so long as the party you got them from knew what they were worth before they made an informed decision on getting torn a new one.
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I think you're a bit too worked up over this. If you don't like people being ripped off don't trade. It isn't your responsibly if someone else gets ripped off.
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No, it's not Ponder's responsibility. The responsibility lies for the parties in the trade. But only if you value being open and honest in business.
You can still be profitable and be honest. You don't have to make the decision to be one or the other.
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You make a strong point.
To be fair, I haven't read any comments from any of my trade partners that showed dissatisfaction with a P2P Trade.
There was only one comment that could even be considered and it was because the price was not available so I posted the more expensive English version price, to which they responded "Wow, I didn't know X card was worth that much." I clarified about the price difference between English and the other language.
I agree with this.
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It's all good man.
Like I said, almost everybody will still be okay with trading to your advantage so long as you're up front with them about it.
And it's not too late to say: "from this point out, I'll make sure everybody knows that they're trading to my advantage".
The project will still work, I assure you. You'll just be able to appease all the folks that question the integrity of the project (whether you think it's important or not).
Just food for thought, bro.
Like you said, we're all part of the MTG "brotherhood" of sorts. I have an equal desire to A) see your project be a success, and B) defend the level of trading professionalism I extend to my trading partners. That's all.
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I don't see anything wrong with trading to your own benifit, and hope you don't think the entire cube forum think you are an evil spawn of satan.
I take honor in making good trades and buy/sell cards at the right time. The most recent is my 3 candelabras (too bad I didn't get the forth). Sometimes your right and win some money and sometimes your wrong and lose a bit.
When we're talking anyhing below trading a basic land for a mox, I don't think there's really a problem with trades that are a valuewise a bit to one of the persons benifit.
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no your right its not my responsibilty..
i took extreme offense at jmendina suggesting he was performing some kind of community service, hes gloating over rorting ppl in trades.
i guess ppl have a different opinion of what intelligence is.
i think personal greed is not a sign of intelligence, however i feel that altruism at least requires some thought into the effects and repercussions of our actions.
i have never supported the kind of ppl that say "just tell this 14YO scrub that trading some mythics for some commons is sweet" i will never be a part of a trade that actively tries to rip a third party.
and will tell ppl if i think there in the process of getting ripped off.
and sorry, but i have had to ask ppl to "have a quiet word with me, outside."
i think that good sportmanship, and at least the fundamental level of ethics and respect for the fellow players of the game is paramount.
after all its a game for ten year olds, guys, and my regular games shop sometimes drafts with an eight year old girl and her sixty something year old grandmother. they might not be good players, but at least they are good people.
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A) The project was a huge success, I did get there, thanks to my trade partners.
B) I understand what you are saying about letting people know, but anyone who is familiar with my work via SCG, ManaNation or Twitter, knows that I never withhold financial information from people when asked.
If someone asks me a question at the trade table I answer it honestly and to the best of my ability.
I spend hours every week- producing articles with the latest card trends (see below), doing Podcasts where I comment on the topics of MTG Finance, and updating my Twitter following on what cards to pick up and which ones to ship.
My approach is this. I spend all this time weekly giving the information out, so when I hit the trade tables, you guys are on your own. I am a reasonable and polite trader and I'm always willing to work with my trade partner. All my partner has to do is bring his / her knowledge.
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Great. But for me, even when my trading partner doesn't bring his/her knowledge (or obviously doesn't have enough) I'll enlighten them... even at the cost of the trade if need-be.
Like I said before, 95% or more of your trades would've happened exactly the same way, regardless. But for those 5% that didn't know what kind of trade-savvy shark they were swimming with, a little honesty would've both educated them, and increased the integrity of the trading community as a whole. And as you said, education about the process of trading was a benefit of the project itself. There's no reason that education couldn't take place during the process, rather than as a result of the project.
Cheers.
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Agreed
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I think this is the way to approach it. I have no problem with someone making a profit on a trade. But realistically, neither party should be doubling their value on a per-trade basis. If you know you're getting more than say, 20%, you really should inform the other party, for ethics sake. I remember (perhaps wrongly) some of the trades on the P2P series were egregious offenders, like $60 of cards for $20.
Maybe it's just that Jon uses store buy prices for the value of his cards. j/k
Also, it's really just the oddities in the P2P that I have a problem with. Jon's a pretty funny guy on the podcasts I've heard, and would probably be cool to hang out with. Just watch your binder.
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I still have to go to work every day, so even with the schedule, I wouldn't be able to follow you around and enlighten your trade partners.
I think the biggest problem with your series and your ethics when it comes to trading is that you willingly and knowingly rip people off. Not only that, but then you basically brag about it in your articles.
Trading a $15 dollar card for a $20 dollar card and not saying anything about the price difference is one thing, but taking a guy for nearly $50 bucks? That's a little ridiculous. Why didn't you speak up there? I mean, I know it's your goal in the trades to come out ahead, but even you gotta see the obvious advantage you had over this guy. Seriously, why didn't you say to the guy, "Pick out a couple more, I got you by like $40 dollars here." I agree that the information is out there and he should have taken the time to know what his cards were worth, but it's obvious that he had no idea. I think as a trader and even a savvy card shark like yourself, it's then your job to educate that person instead of using his lack of knowledge to your advantage. That's when it starts to become a shady business.
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I goto work every day. I've worked a job since I was 16 years old, sometimes two.
As far as trading goes, my philosophy is very simple. It's based on 3 pillars of truth.
1) The value of a card is relative, meaning that a cards "worth" is measured differently by different people. Rather than try to be a reader of minds, I simply ask my trade partner's what they value the card at. Sometimes they use money to measure it, sometimes they simply line it up against other cards and sometimes they'll take a slice of pizza for it.
This is where people really misunderstand what I do. If someone asks me to value a card, I simply tell them what I am willing to pay. If they ask me the market value, I will tell them to the best of my knowledge what it is. Sometimes they accept, sometimes they reject my pricing and sometimes they counter. All of these responses are OK. Which leads me to truth number two.
2) No one is forcing anyone to trade. People have the ability to say "no" - they should exercise that ability if they are not OK with the trade. If they are OK with the trade then my relative value has matched their relative value and all things are in sync in the universe. If they are concerned with monetary value more than relative value then I expect them to know what cards are worth monetarily, thats three.
3) There is no reason for someone to lose money on a trade if they truly don't want to. Do your homework, don't expect me to do it for you (the collective). If you know that you are not knowledgeable in pricing and you don't want to lose value in trades, then don't trade.
It's pretty presumptuous to say, "I don't want to learn pricing (if you wanted to learn you would). I'm going to trade anyway and if you don't make sure that I'm getting a deal then you're a douche!"
Trading is not a requirement. My trade binder is not something that you automatically (the collective) have a right to. It's a service that I provide. I allow players to use their cards as currency, and there is an exchange rate for that service.
I hope that give more perspective on my stance.
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It does, but according to Pringlesman's red text earlier, we're not allowed to actually write what that stance seems to be. And you still didn't answer my question.
1) There's relative value of a card as in what my (non Magic playing) dad values a Black Lotus at and what I value it at. There's also relative value of a card as in the casual player that has no use for the hot new card in standard, and is willing to trade it straight up for the jank card he needs for his casual deck. The people that value the cards that way have no desire to look up the monetary values. If my dad came across a Black Lotus in a yard sale for a dollar, it's a good possibility that he'd just pass it up or even throw it away. If I were to tell him what he's got and what the monetary value of it is, he might be more inclined to try to get the better deal. Someone who offers up a card to you at a price that's obviously incorrect probably isn't giving you his relative value of the card. He's giving you his monetary value of the card (he did phrase his answer in the form of currency) and he's wrong about it. Instead of telling him he was wrong and educating the poor sap, you took advantage of him and blatantly ripped him off. Basing a trade on relative value is only ok if both parties understand and are ok with the trade even after it goes down and more information is introduced. Just because someone is willing to trade you a Lotus for a slice of pizza, doesn't make it right to do so.
2.) People do have the power to say no, but if they don't have all the information and don't realize they're getting ripped off, why would they? If you're up front with them and tell them you're getting them for a good $40 bucks, and they're still cool, then I agree with you. Ripping someone off and then saying, "He coulda said no" is a heck of a shady way of justifying your actions.
3.) I agree with doing homework and knowing what you've got before offering it up to the people. I don't think you should have to do people's homework for them. But I think taking advantage of people who didn't bother to do that homework or are just generally bad at it is no way to trade. If someone doesn't know, I feel like it's your job to educate them.
So, to reiterate my original question: Why didn't you tell the guy you had almost $50 dollars more on that trade? Why not allow him to close that gap a little? Most everyone wants to come out to the good on a trade, but $50 dollars on a trade of that magnitude is a little excessive. He basically gave you that much in free cards and you let him unknowingly do it.
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I'm gonna be honest and say that I'd probably low ball them. Yet I wouldn't do the same thing to someone at a shop offering to trade it for my wurmcoil engine or whatever. The reason being is that making those unbalanced trades gives the entire community a bad reputation and can be a discouraging factor for new players, but the garage sale person really has no connection to anything so you're only hurting that one person not the community as a whole. I'm not saying that makes it any more acceptable to rip them off, but from a pragmatic perspective it has much less possible backlash.
this is what it comes down to for me. on the one hand, you have the medina method where if someone is willing to let themselves get ripped off you go ahead and rip them off (and maybe later they find out, and maybe tell other people). in my opinion, this is destructive to the community. it promotes dishonesty and distrust. i could see someone getting disillusioned with magic over something like that. on the other hand, you have wtwlf's method, which promotes trust in the community and encourages fair behavior. they may well pass this on to their own trading partners which can encourage people to play more magic and do more trading.
the worst part of the magic community, in my opinion, is the ☺☺☺☺ you attitude toward casual players and newcomers. sure, you will trade with people less educated than you. but maybe they don't know where to get educated. maybe they're on their way but they're not there yet. maybe instead of taking them to the cleaners, you could explain the basics to them or point them in the right direction. i understand that you're doing this for your readers to a certain extent, but when it's at the expense of your trade partners it kind of cancels out.
when someone starts playing magic, goes to an fnm, and everyone there acts like they're an idiot for not understand the game and takes advantage of them, that is bad for the game. it can reduce the player base which supports the game's existence. i feel that aggressive trading like what we're discussing can have the same effect.
from reading your comments here, i get the sense that you're not an awful human being, and it's just a difference in perspective. but i hope you can understand where some of us are coming from.
i think this sums it up more eloquently than i was managing to do.
this is a tough call. it has no effect on the community, which is a big part of what i object to in pack to power. it's kind of like finding a lotus in the garbage. but all the same i think i would probably tell them what it was worth. i would certainly struggle with the decision in any case.
At the very least, the community at large should agree not to rip people off that would feel bad about it afterward, because you're both still going to be a part of the community, and like you say, will hurt people. We really don't want that.
For stuff like garage sales, it's expected that you either do your research before selling 'old crap' or submit that everyone finds great deals at garage sales. I have no idea why people don't do a little bit of research for something that is a collectible item.
I think it largely stems that Medina views his trading primarily like a business, rather than from a player's perspective. There isn't anything wrong with this approach, but there's a difference between how he approaches trading, and how many other players perform and approach trading. And that can cause some odd things when viewed from the outside.
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if i went to a store that did business that way i wouldn't go back.
I mean it in the sense that stores buy cards low and sell high, similarly to trading with a large price disparity. Really, the only difference is that when trading, Medina isn't wearing a shirt with his storefront logo.
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As I grew up, my philosophies changed. Now when I trade, I'm not out to gain value at all costs, I'm out to have a good time and tweak my collection. To the best of my ability, I try and make fair trades, because I'd want the same treatment from another person, whether it's trading Magic cards, buying a car, negotiating prices for house repairs, whatever. I, like anyone else, don't mind getting the upside of deal, but if there's some egregious gap in value, I don't like to let that slide. But that's just me.
Medina's trading philosophies strike me as business-like and tournament-esque, while there's lots of us here that seem to take a more casual approach to trading. He takes positive value and monetary gains very seriously and others here don't. I think it's perfectly fine to measure your trades down to the cent, that's just not the way I choose to trade. It's like playing a game of Magic; you can play in a more strict tournament style or just casually. Trading practices aren't much different than that, and there's nothing wrong with either. I just personally don't care for Medina's "hold harmless" stance, and subsequently making an example of people.
Nevertheless, the project and series (on an theoretical level) was great, it was very cool to see the journey as it unfolded.
Medina said it best when he described the whole MTG community as a "brotherhood" of sorts. When I'm doing deals with other Magic players, I wanna say something like: "I'm still up on you by like $20... keep digging for more stuff".
When dealing with the public, I feel largely the same way. There was a time where I wouldn't. But if I come up to some nice people selling their son's Magic collection at a yard sale after he's gone off to college, I'd be straight with them. I'd let them know they're worth more than they have them priced at, and see what their motives for selling are. I could say something like "If you listed all this stuff individually on eBay and really put some effort into finding out and inventorying what you've got here, there's a good chance you could make quite a bit of money off of these cards".
In the same token, if they took them to their LGS and sold them for cash, what would they get there? 25%? I'd probably make 'em an offer similar to what they'd get from a LGS if they took the collection there. And I'd be honest that I thought I was getting a good deal. And I'd also be honest that they could make more on eBay. Most people won't care. I may even offer to help them inventory the stuff. I'd tell them that it's worth a lot, but if you want to unload it in bulk, you'll get offers of about $X or so from a various local dealer.
If they say they don't give a crap, they're just crotchety old people that want to sell their stuff fast, then I'll buy it. But they can't say I didn't warn them.
..........
In fact, I HAVE done something similar to this in the past before. There was a kid who came into our LGS with his older brothers MTG collection, which was full of valuable broken stuff. I sat down with him (and had him call his mom over to the store) and helped them sort through what they had. Do I sometimes wish that I had told him it was all crap and scooped it up for $20? Sure! But it doesn't outweigh how I felt when I helped them realize they had a few grand worth of stuff in front of them. He was gonna sell it to a kid at school for really cheap, and they were grateful that someone was honest with them.
I never told the LGS owner about that kid's visit... in the expectation that I'd be banned from the store forever.
..........
TL;DR: Integrity is important to me.
Except when you sell to a store, you know they're gonna sell it for more than they paid you for it. They have to pay to maintain the store. And they tell you outright, 25% of value in cash, 50% of value in trade... which do you want? They won't tell you, ya, I'll give you $5 because I value it at $5, when they really value it at $20. If they did that, I'd never do business with them again, because it's unethical. Ethics is important in a business; being forthright with your customers is the difference between an honest business and a bad business.
When you're trading with a fellow Magic player, I expect the trades to be fair and even. "About $20 for about $20? Great trade!" I'm not trading with a for profit company, I'm trading with another member of "the brotherhood".
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in any event, in my opinion the point of trading is to skip the value hit you take when you go through a store. if my trading partner is going to trade like that, what's the point of trading with him? i might as well just go to a store (which will have a better selection and clearly marked prices) and get store credit. the entire point of person to person trading is invalidated if you trade like a store owner. it's all the downsides of store trading and none of the upsides.
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i am that person.
regarding uneven but not unfair, that's not what we're talking about. uneven trades are just fine as long as both parties are informed and happy. we're specifically talking about unfair trades where you're looking at a difference of $40-$50 specifically because the other party didn't know what they had and his trade partner did.
it's as simple as this: when i trade, do i trade fair or do i actively try to rip off my partner by misleading them? the answer is i trade fair. he doesn't. it's not very complicated and has nothing to do with looking down on anyone or feeling better about myself. it has to do with what's better for the community.
This was not a very helpful post (mine, not Jonathan's). I saw an opportunity for a cheap gag and just went for it. Apologies for that.
@jmedina: I appreciate that you have engaged with this debate constructively, which is much to your credit.
One thing about which I am curious is whether the Pack to Power quest made any change to your approach to trading? Do you think that you became so caught up in the game of trading up that you became less conscious of the affect of your trades on other people?
@everyone else: there have been some comments about the absolute differential in specific trades e.g. that someone was "ripped off" by $50. Given that the aim of Pack to Power was to make a net profit of over $300 dollars, and that most people seem to agree that a small disparity in trades is OK, what is the minimum number of trades that Mr Medina "should" have made to achieve his goal?
Value in a trade is highly mutable. I am fortunate that I am in a relatively well paid job, but one that leaves me little time for my hobbies such as magic. Because I am (relatively) cash rich and time poor I am happy to pay a premium to my local trader to get the cards I want to put in my cube. He gives me 50% list price plus 25% of that if I go for store credit (i.e. 62.5% list price). This is a significantly worse deal than the majority of Mr Medina's trades, I suspect.
Because this is my default, almost any trade I can make after my infrequent drafts at the local games club is likely to give me better value than one with my local trader. I play only current limited formats and cube, so any card that is valuable to a standard/extended/EDH/whatever player is worthless to me. This grants me the privileged position where I can make trades with other gamers that leave both of us better off (although my friendly commercial dealer will be out of a sale, and I don't want him to go bust.)
I think what would irritate me is if I overheard someone boasting about how they had somehow got one over on me in a trade. In some respects the Pack to Power articles read like this, and I think it is this that makes me most unsettled.
Final caveat: my best trade ever was a single foil Chrome Mox for a playset of HP Volcanic Island and a playset of HP Tropical Island. This was back in the day when the mox was being super hyped and before legacy made the Blue Duals worth more than their weight in gold. I fail to feel bad about it because the trade was made with the same local trader I now cheerfully pay a 37.5% premium to on every trade.
This post was a little longer than I intended, but I hope that is preferable to just making a cheap shot.
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