I have my eyes on this card too,lol. Hopefully it is double damage from however many source until the end of turn. Then it can be played in burnnnnn......
nah it is similary worded as Furnace of Rath so it would double damage from any source until eot.
Ohhh you're right...that actually makes the card considerable.
About the extra damage, that might not be a bad thing since, if you have the Quest down and can calculate how much damage you'll do, it might free you up to use some burn on creatures (prevent them from racing you, give you an extra turn to draw and go off) or to lose a card to Blue Elemental Blasts and such against control.
Ohhh you're right...that actually makes the card considerable.
About the extra damage, that might not be a bad thing since, if you have the Quest down and can calculate how much damage you'll do, it might free you up to use some burn on creatures (prevent them from racing you, give you an extra turn to draw and go off) or to lose a card to Blue Elemental Blasts and such against control.
I think I would actually much rather run the one that forks everything. This one feels a little win-more, where the other actually makes spells harder to counter. Dunno if I'd honestly run either, but they might well be worth testing.
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Currently Running Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
You guys really think it would be worth your time? It's just such a terrible top-deck that I think I HAVE to rule it out altogether. If it had a Leyline's ability, then I would consider it (and Burn would then be broken)...otherwise I'm not too high on it.
So, 4x Runeflare Trap for the sideboard? Seals the deal versus decks that utilize Brainstorm, gets around Counterbalance too. Typically 4+ damage for :symr:. If you go first, turn 1 Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning them to 17, they go, turn 2 you play a land and pass, they respond by EOT Brainstorm, you let the Brainstorm resolve then EOT 2x Runeflare Trap, they're now at 3 life. If you have a Fireblast in your hand, you've won by the end of your second turn. If not, you will almost surely win soon thereafter.
So, 4x Runeflare Trap for the sideboard? Seals the deal versus decks that utilize Brainstorm, gets around Counterbalance too. Typically 4+ damage for :symr:. If you go first, turn 1 Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning them to 17, they go, turn 2 you play a land and pass, they respond by EOT Brainstorm, you let the Brainstorm resolve then EOT 2x Runeflare Trap, they're now at 3 life. If you have a Fireblast in your hand, you've won by the end of your second turn. If not, you will almost surely win soon thereafter.
It sounds nice, but honestly, I don't have room for it in my board, not over what's already there. And it really is too conditional to really be...
Well it does hit standstill too.... but we already trounce them just about every match... dunno, meta dependant this could be good, but unless you play against nothing but Merfolk, MUC, Thresh (iffy), and Landstill... Ok yeah I might test it.
Currently Running Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
You could always try a R/b hybrid Actually, I don't see Bloodchief Ascension working that well in a burn-focused build. Other than burning their creatures instead of them, what ways have you to put cards into their graveyard? Of course, you could sideboard Archive Trap for a cool -26 life (and +26 life for yourself)... :xd:
You could always try a R/b hybrid Actually, I don't see Bloodchief Ascension working that well in a burn-focused build. Other than burning their creatures instead of them, what ways have you to put cards into their graveyard? Of course, you could sideboard Archive Trap for a cool -26 life (and +26 life for yourself)... :xd:
I hear them playing spells is a pretty effective way...
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Currently Running Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
Well, true, unless these spells are anything other than instants and sorceries The main problem though is that you give your opponent control of the condition. It will limit them, but it will allow them to stall, and perhaps find an answer before you do. Such strategies are usually against the typical Burn gameplan. But Bloodchief Ascension may very well take that in a different direction if it were introduced itself. It might work.
Well, true, unless these spells are anything other than instants and sorceries The main problem though is that you give your opponent control of the condition. It will limit them, but it will allow them to stall, and perhaps find an answer before you do. Such strategies are usually against the typical Burn gameplan. But Bloodchief Ascension may very well take that in a different direction if it were introduced itself. It might work.
But the point isn't to make it the focus. We would still be burning away, we've just added an additional element to limit their actions. It's not like we just get it active then stop playing the deck and hope for the best. It's black so it's pretty much moot anyways, but I brought it up because it is one of the easiest Ascensions to activate, especially in burn. And it punishes the opponent for playing the game without curving burn's strategies or intents. And there are some decks it doesn't just punish, there are some decks it flat out beats. Ichorid loses to it (though getting it active before they go off might be tough), Storm combo (same as Ichorid), 43 land, and aggro loam. On top of which it's not in-effective against anything, and gets bonus points off of fetches/wastes, and nets some extra damage from sweepers (possibly game winning, vs aggro).
Quite honestly the only drawback I see to this card is that it is not in our colour.
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Currently Running Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
Alright, you've provided several good points that I am finding myself in agreement with after reading them. Perhaps then it is worth trying to splash black. Can you think of any other decent black cards to splash for?
Alright, you've provided several good points that I am finding myself in agreement with after reading them. Perhaps then it is worth trying to splash black. Can you think of any other decent black cards to splash for?
Black splash just for this card? I'm not sure it's worth it. Generally, if it's not red, it's usually not worth the trouble. Makes you vulnerable to fetch stifling, wastelands...what have you...seems to take away a lot of the advantages this deck has because of the way it's built.
I actually would like to know the results of this deck. It is obviously slower than a regular burn but with the discard factor added. It's definitely going a different direction than your conventional burn deck.
I'm not sure about the discard route, I probably would only try introducing those elements in the sideboard.
What about trying Goblin Guide? I find him quite suitable in this theme; swings for 2 every turn starting with turn 1, works decently with the ascension enchantment.
I am finding Blightning exhibiting the danger of cool-looking things, mostly because it is 3 mana, and for only 3 damage. The discard effect won't help us too much unless we try to take advantage of it with effects like The Rack, which I think would require too heavy a focus on discard to still allow us to introduce enough burn effects or trigger the ascension reliably enough.
For more black cards to try, the only thing that is coming to mind for me is Dark Confidant, which actually might work rather well, and now that I think about it, I am sure it has been tried before under the name of some other archetype.
By the way, if we introduce black, we can add the lovely Needlebite Trap to our sideboard :xd:
I'm not sure about the discard route, I probably would only try introducing those elements in the sideboard.
What about trying Goblin Guide? I find him quite suitable in this theme; swings for 2 every turn starting with turn 1, works decently with the ascension enchantment.
I am finding Blightning exhibiting the danger of cool-looking things, mostly because it is 3 mana, and for only 3 damage. The discard effect won't help us too much unless we try to take advantage of it with effects like The Rack, which I think would require too heavy a focus on discard to still allow us to introduce enough burn effects or trigger the ascension reliably enough.
For more black cards to try, the only thing that is coming to mind for me is Dark Confidant, which actually might work rather well, and now that I think about it, I am sure it has been tried before under the name of some other archetype.
By the way, if we introduce black, we can add the lovely Needlebite Trap to our sideboard :xd:
I actually prefer the goblin guide here than my goblin deck. I'm gonna try it out and see what results I'll get. The 2 extra damage each turns sounds good.
You might be able to get away with guide, and I may test him myself, but Confidant and Lavamancer are huge No-No's. Creatures without immediate effects just don't fly, and for that reason I'm skeptical of Guide. I'd much rather just stick to the ones that will in fact deal damage. Similarly Discard gives us worse topdecks, and doesn't really advance the game plan any. We already disrupt their hand by giving them useless draws, why worsen the burn suite for a similar effect?
I intend to test ascension, but I'm not sold on anything else black in here. Might as well just go for Red Death if that's where we're taking it.
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Currently Running Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
Concerns...
Browbeat: Is it good to give your opponent the choice?
Reckless Abandon: Conditional card..
Ball Lightning: Easily killed off/removed.
Braid of Fire: Mana can only be used during upkeep step. So you can only use to cast instants or activate abilities. Isn't that useful as game should be over by turn 5. Would rather have burn?
Grim Lavamancer and Pyromancer Ascension clash.
Mogg Fanatic: Now less useful because it dies at the beginning of combat damage.
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rift bolt, lava spike, and price of progress should all just about be auto includes as 4 ofs. they do lots of damage and they hit early on. smash to smithereens depends on your meta, probably definitely in the sb. two creatures to consider not on your list:
Doesn't Aegis of Honor single handedly **** this entire concept over?
Yes...do you have room in your SB for it?
@weltkrieg: I have dreamed forever of making a Sligh deck with Reckless Abandon. Those are two great ideas for me at least. Is Keldon Champion too much of a gamble in a deck like that?
Concerns...
Browbeat: Is it good to give your opponent the choice?
Reckless Abandon: Conditional card..
Ball Lightning: Easily killed off/removed.
Braid of Fire: Mana can only be used during upkeep step. So you can only use to cast instants or activate abilities. Isn't that useful as game should be over by turn 5. Would rather have burn?
Grim Lavamancer and Pyromancer Ascension clash.
Mogg Fanatic: Now less useful because it dies at the beginning of combat damage.
Although it looks like a solid core, I've got a few contentions with it, illustrated by my core choice below.
16 1cc cards is about right in Burn, even if Lava Spike can only hit players.
The 2cc card that I see as a core package is Magma Jet, because forming solid draws into winspell/land is something that is very useful in a deck that doesn't get to do so often. Price of Progress is very, very sexy in this format, but every now and then it is a dead card. Even still, this is outweighed by the heavy damage it does to decks that use non-basics religiously.
Fireblast is an auto-include win condition, and board sweepers are mandatory in this format. The difference in the board sweeper is meta-dependent. (Flamebreak for non-Faerie decks, and Volcanic Fallout for decks heavily reliant on blue and/or Faeries.
You might have noticed that there are zero creatures in my core decklist. This is because I have yet to find a creature that is decent enough to auto-include, and I am worried that the creature pool we have isn't suitable for a burn package after the loss of Mogg Fanatic's mojo. Hellspark Elemental just looks like a flashy Incinerate that is more situational than the Incinerate, and Keldon Marauders has never performed for me with the copious times I tested him. The lack of board presence is a concern when he's run, and the 2-damage for 2-mana is only good with a cantrip/pseudocantrip and/or board removal.
Naturally, even though fetchlands are good, I'm worried that they are hit very hard in Legacy. The main reason to this is that Stifle becomes a one mana Time Stretch when used at the start of the game. The second main reason is that Tarmogoyf loves you for this. Very much. In a prison roommate called Bubba sort of way.
Burn tends to be a speed-based deck weighted very heavily on tempo, and the loss of tempo hoses this deck better than others. Even if the fetchlands make the deck marginally more able to draw the burn spell and not the land, it is not a risk I'm willing to take.
Also, Mogg Fanatic is no longer Mogg Fantastic. So much, that he becomes an overcosted 1-damage burn spell. As damage is no longer allowed to sit on the stack, there is nowhere enough justification to keep him in the deck.
EDIT: 1337th post in a thread that has been my pet project for the last 4 years.
I too have toyed with Burn for a long time and reached similar conclusions. In your burn shell, my only modification would be to up the land count to 20 (usually with +2 BRing).
You might have noticed that there are zero creatures in my core decklist. This is because I have yet to find a creature that is decent enough to auto-include, and I am worried that the creature pool we have isn't suitable for a burn package after the loss of Mogg Fanatic's mojo. Hellspark Elemental just looks like a flashy Incinerate that is more situational than the Incinerate, and Keldon Marauders has never performed for me with the copious times I tested him. The lack of board presence is a concern when he's run, and the 2-damage for 2-mana is only good with a cantrip/pseudocantrip and/or board removal.
I have found the same, however there are 8-9 open slots in your burn shell. It's not that creatures as such are good in burn, it's that we're hard pressed to find better options than about 4-6 creatures to fill the remaining slots.
I'd be interested to hear what else you toss in if you want to keep it creatureless. To me, Sulfuric Vortex has become indispensible and I'm considering going up to 4 MD (I run 3 now). It makes creatures even less attractive though, as an opposing StP (most common removal?) won't grant you life under vortex.
Also, how does the Ichorid MU fare for you without creatures that destroy themselves? Have creatureless taken you in any particular SB direction, or do you run the usual stuff?
I think burn really needs a good GY hate spell that deals damage so it can be run MD (something like StS for a GY card rather than an artifact). Dream on I guess...
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Ohhh you're right...that actually makes the card considerable.
About the extra damage, that might not be a bad thing since, if you have the Quest down and can calculate how much damage you'll do, it might free you up to use some burn on creatures (prevent them from racing you, give you an extra turn to draw and go off) or to lose a card to Blue Elemental Blasts and such against control.
Corrupt Control B | Burn R | UG Turbofog UG | White Weenie W | GW Tethmos WG | BG Cycling Combo BG
Enchantress GBW | Colorless Tron C | Red Deck Wins R | UG Madness UG | Mono-G Tron G | UR Puzzlehorns UR
Rhystic Tron WU| WU Prowess WU | BR Reanimator BR | Mono-R Control R | Stompy G | Temur Tron URG
Mardu Infinite Priest WBR | 85-Card Dredge BRG | Elves GU | Boros Bully RW | Jeskai Familiars RWU
I think I would actually much rather run the one that forks everything. This one feels a little win-more, where the other actually makes spells harder to counter. Dunno if I'd honestly run either, but they might well be worth testing.
Currently Running
Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves
Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave
Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
It sounds nice, but honestly, I don't have room for it in my board, not over what's already there. And it really is too conditional to really be...
Well it does hit standstill too.... but we already trounce them just about every match... dunno, meta dependant this could be good, but unless you play against nothing but Merfolk, MUC, Thresh (iffy), and Landstill... Ok yeah I might test it.
Mght just be worth the effort.
Also, I wish Bloodchief Ascension was Red. This thing is ridiculous.
Currently Running
Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves
Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave
Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
I hear them playing spells is a pretty effective way...
Currently Running
Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves
Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave
Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
But the point isn't to make it the focus. We would still be burning away, we've just added an additional element to limit their actions. It's not like we just get it active then stop playing the deck and hope for the best. It's black so it's pretty much moot anyways, but I brought it up because it is one of the easiest Ascensions to activate, especially in burn. And it punishes the opponent for playing the game without curving burn's strategies or intents. And there are some decks it doesn't just punish, there are some decks it flat out beats. Ichorid loses to it (though getting it active before they go off might be tough), Storm combo (same as Ichorid), 43 land, and aggro loam. On top of which it's not in-effective against anything, and gets bonus points off of fetches/wastes, and nets some extra damage from sweepers (possibly game winning, vs aggro).
Quite honestly the only drawback I see to this card is that it is not in our colour.
Currently Running
Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves
Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave
Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
Black splash just for this card? I'm not sure it's worth it. Generally, if it's not red, it's usually not worth the trouble. Makes you vulnerable to fetch stifling, wastelands...what have you...seems to take away a lot of the advantages this deck has because of the way it's built.
What about trying Goblin Guide? I find him quite suitable in this theme; swings for 2 every turn starting with turn 1, works decently with the ascension enchantment.
I am finding Blightning exhibiting the danger of cool-looking things, mostly because it is 3 mana, and for only 3 damage. The discard effect won't help us too much unless we try to take advantage of it with effects like The Rack, which I think would require too heavy a focus on discard to still allow us to introduce enough burn effects or trigger the ascension reliably enough.
For more black cards to try, the only thing that is coming to mind for me is Dark Confidant, which actually might work rather well, and now that I think about it, I am sure it has been tried before under the name of some other archetype.
By the way, if we introduce black, we can add the lovely Needlebite Trap to our sideboard :xd:
Edit: Here's a sample decklist.
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Badlands
1x Swamp
9x Mountain
Creatures (10)
4x Goblin Guide
4x Dark Confidant
2x Grim Lavamancer
4x Bloodchief Ascension
Burn (28)
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike
4x Magma Jet
4x Incinerate
4x Fireblast
4x Thoughtseize
4x Shattering Spree
2x Anarchy
2x Needlebite Trap
3x Price of Progress
I like the synergy between Dark Confidant and Magma Jet
That lone Swamp looks VERY dangerous.
Maybe add another Mountain and only play 3 Badlands + 1 Swamp?
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
4x Badlands or 3x Badlands & 1x Blood Crypt or 4 & 1 split should be fine.
Check out my Trade Thread!
I intend to test ascension, but I'm not sold on anything else black in here. Might as well just go for Red Death if that's where we're taking it.
Currently Running
Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves
Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave
Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
Anyways, trying to build the best legacy deck using these cards and could really use some help.
Mandatory Cards
10 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Mogg Fanatic
Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Fireblast
4 Chain Lightning
Fill+Sideboard
Creatures
Instants
Sorceries
Other
Concerns...
Browbeat: Is it good to give your opponent the choice?
Reckless Abandon: Conditional card..
Ball Lightning: Easily killed off/removed.
Braid of Fire: Mana can only be used during upkeep step. So you can only use to cast instants or activate abilities. Isn't that useful as game should be over by turn 5. Would rather have burn?
Grim Lavamancer and Pyromancer Ascension clash.
Mogg Fanatic: Now less useful because it dies at the beginning of combat damage.
I'd probably run 4 fireblast, and then either volcanic fallout or flamebreak as a few of, but that's the way I play burn decks.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Yes...do you have room in your SB for it?
@weltkrieg: I have dreamed forever of making a Sligh deck with Reckless Abandon. Those are two great ideas for me at least. Is Keldon Champion too much of a gamble in a deck like that?
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
18 Mountain
One CC Spells (16)
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Magma Jet
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
The 2cc card that I see as a core package is Magma Jet, because forming solid draws into winspell/land is something that is very useful in a deck that doesn't get to do so often. Price of Progress is very, very sexy in this format, but every now and then it is a dead card. Even still, this is outweighed by the heavy damage it does to decks that use non-basics religiously.
Fireblast is an auto-include win condition, and board sweepers are mandatory in this format. The difference in the board sweeper is meta-dependent. (Flamebreak for non-Faerie decks, and Volcanic Fallout for decks heavily reliant on blue and/or Faeries.
You might have noticed that there are zero creatures in my core decklist. This is because I have yet to find a creature that is decent enough to auto-include, and I am worried that the creature pool we have isn't suitable for a burn package after the loss of Mogg Fanatic's mojo. Hellspark Elemental just looks like a flashy Incinerate that is more situational than the Incinerate, and Keldon Marauders has never performed for me with the copious times I tested him. The lack of board presence is a concern when he's run, and the 2-damage for 2-mana is only good with a cantrip/pseudocantrip and/or board removal.
Naturally, even though fetchlands are good, I'm worried that they are hit very hard in Legacy. The main reason to this is that Stifle becomes a one mana Time Stretch when used at the start of the game. The second main reason is that Tarmogoyf loves you for this. Very much. In a prison roommate called Bubba sort of way.
Burn tends to be a speed-based deck weighted very heavily on tempo, and the loss of tempo hoses this deck better than others. Even if the fetchlands make the deck marginally more able to draw the burn spell and not the land, it is not a risk I'm willing to take.
Also, Mogg Fanatic is no longer Mogg Fantastic. So much, that he becomes an overcosted 1-damage burn spell. As damage is no longer allowed to sit on the stack, there is nowhere enough justification to keep him in the deck.
EDIT: 1337th post in a thread that has been my pet project for the last 4 years.
an unnatural love towardsperfectly reasonable respect for Lightning Bolt.The Kiwi third of The Salt Mine Podcast: An Australian Legacy Podcast
I have found the same, however there are 8-9 open slots in your burn shell. It's not that creatures as such are good in burn, it's that we're hard pressed to find better options than about 4-6 creatures to fill the remaining slots.
I'd be interested to hear what else you toss in if you want to keep it creatureless. To me, Sulfuric Vortex has become indispensible and I'm considering going up to 4 MD (I run 3 now). It makes creatures even less attractive though, as an opposing StP (most common removal?) won't grant you life under vortex.
Also, how does the Ichorid MU fare for you without creatures that destroy themselves? Have creatureless taken you in any particular SB direction, or do you run the usual stuff?
I think burn really needs a good GY hate spell that deals damage so it can be run MD (something like StS for a GY card rather than an artifact). Dream on I guess...
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]