The FoW argument is one of the worse arguments ever. How could a deck that runs 8 nonblue cards ever have a problem casting FoW? Have you seen Thresh decks? Landstill? Etc.
What you said about Wake Thrasher getting bigger on the opponents turn is so wrong. I have now judged you and do not trust anything you could ever say about Magic: the Gathering, let alone Merfolk.
I'm worried people have claimed Merfolk as the cheap deck of Legacy. Players don't want to buy Goyfs or Trops or Fetches out of principle. Test Goyf and see how it improves every match-up.
The argument is okay but isn't the best argument to use, (this is all my opinion) but I have tested goyf in Merfolk and most of the times when I had goyf I was wishing it was a merfolk. 2 Goyfs just looking at each other isn't that cool especially when your other Merfolk are swinging with Islandwalk(most goyfs are in blue decks so that is very relevant). A lot of the time their Goyfs are backed with Noble Hierarch so Merfolk Goyf gets owned. Also not to mention those same decks are running spellsnare, but it is nice to vial in a goyf.
Wake thrasher can easily be 8/8+ when vialed in at the end of your opp's turn
The argument is okay but isn't the best argument to use, (this is all my opinion) but I have tested goyf in Merfolk and most of the times when I had goyf I was wishing it was a merfolk. 2 Goyfs just looking at each other isn't that cool especially when your other Merfolk is swinging with Islandwalk(most goyfs are in blue decks so that is very relevant). A lot of the time their Goyfs are backed with Noble Hierarch so Merfolk Goyf gets owned. Also not to mention those same decks are running spellsnare, but it is nice to vial in a goyf.
Wake thrasher can easily be 8/8+ when vialed in at the end of your opp's turn
Not to mention burn/ Lavamancer backup for decks like Tempo Thresh and Zoo, which is the more common occurrence.
Not to mention burn/ Lavamancer backup for decks like Tempo Thresh and Zoo, which is the more common occurrence.
Another great point fearmordie, which basically I was trying to say just couldn't come up with all the different examples.
No one is saying Goyf is a crappy creature, but I just don't think it is that great in Merfolk based on some examples that have been mentioned. I would rather have a white splash to have 4 Swords to answer/counter big threats (Goyf) and then do what Merfolk does best... Help each other and swing for the win.
Also swords keeps your FOW open for more of game ending threats which I think helps a lot.
Ps Just read your last Merfolk quote Fearmeordie, which is very true lol... I reason why I stopped playing Merfolk. Its so good vs other blue but sucks serious ass vs anything red. I think the deck has peaked and now countertop is not running rampant (at least in my meta) Merfolk isn't that strong, but still good.
Never. My (poorly-stated) point was, if you want to run him at all, it would be beneficial if he was not too narrow, that is good in some other match-ups too. If he is strictly to own Goblins then maybe he's great, idk.
If you want to have a more general answer that might be useful in other match-ups then Blue Elemental Blast or Hydroblast might be OK.
pros:
- It's a nice beatstick.
- Improves some match ups.
cons:
- You need to splash green, meaning duals come into play, meaning you're a Wasteland target.
- You need to play fetchlands for said duals, thus making you a Stifle target.
- Due to playing fetches/duals, you need to cut on wasteland/mutavault, which in my opinion are both a mandatory 4-off. They're a huge part of what makes Merfolk viable.
- Despite how good Tarmogoyf is, [b]it is not a Merfolk[/b].
- Most, if not all other decks running Tarmogoyf run something you don't. [b]Burn/removal.[/b] This means you will [b]ALWAYS[/b] lose Goyf-stalls if it comes to that.
Remember, you're aggro-control, not aggro. Disrupting your opponent and swinging with on average 3 guys is what you should be doing. Overextending and trying to race your opponent the aggro way will cost you matches against pretty much everything, and if they pull a boardsweeper you might as well scoop.
So yes, even though Tarmofolk variants exist, it's a subpar build comparing it to mono-U and U/Wsplash. Tarmogoyf shines in blazingly fast aggro decks with lots of burn (zoo) or the pure control decks that resolve a single Goyf and ride to victory on that backed up by an enourmous amount of counters/removal (UG(x) thresh). Not Merfolk.
Edit: Oh hey we're on page 53 already I somewhat thought 52 was the last one.
You don't need to cut Wastes or Vaults.
3x Trop
6x Fetch
4x Vault
4x Factory
4x Island
When I say play Goyf, I assumed you were good at magic, I guess I assumed wrong. Why would you drop Goyf with 3 dudes in play? Why overextend?The whole point of the card is that you DON"T over commit. Your dudes get swept away, you drop a 4/5, its that simple. Goyf is a better Wakethrasher. I tested Goyfolk against Supreme Blue and won 11 out of 15 games, against a very good player. I would play a lord or two, he would firespout or StP. Late game, I finish with Goyfs and Vaults. (Clearly simplified but the point is, I would have lost those games if I didn't run Goyf).
The burn argument isnt the best. We play permission, remember? We counter Zoo's Goyfs, thats our gameplan. They don't have islands so a Goyf is instalose. When your opponent doesn't have a goyf in play, it is ALWAYS a 2 for 1, except for Path. And remember, any removal targeting a Goyf is removal drawn away from our Lords.
The fact that it weakens the manabase is a weak argument. You can play around stifle, and rarely do you need to play an early goyf. Goyf gives you a late game.
When I say play Goyf, I assumed you were good at magic, I guess I assumed wrong.
I asked you, in mod capacity, to knock off the ad homs. Now, I can either warn/infract you for diobeying a direct mod request, or for flaming. Consider this your last warning.
Seems mighty suspect. If I needed additional evasion and people around me didn't play enough Islands I'd probably consider island-makers instead. Also you're putting more U symbols in your deck, which probably has 7-8 colorless land. Let us know how it works out, though!
EDIT: That last sentence wasn't supposed to be snarky. While I'm not too confident in that change, it'd be awesome if you did some playtesting and told us how it went.
Seems mighty suspect. If I needed additional evasion and people around me didn't play enough Islands I'd probably consider island-makers instead. Also you're putting more U symbols in your deck, which probably has 7-8 colorless land. Let us know how it works out, though!
EDIT: That last sentence wasn't supposed to be snarky. While I'm not too confident in that change, it'd be awesome if you did some playtesting and told us how it went.
I have not tried Wake Thrasher out yet, but I do not think I have ever been able to hardcast Sovereign. I can never keep two Islands out where I did not want to tap one for Stifle, Mutavault, or something else. Bouncing those Islands often keeps me with less out than I'd like, too. Thrasher might help me out...I could also just run three Mutavaults, too....
When I say play Goyf, I assumed you were good at magic, I guess I assumed wrong
Sorry dude, insulting people doesn't make your argument any better. True Goyf can be better than Trasher in certain situations but Thrasher can be better then goyf in certain situations. Swords is better counter for Goyf then playing your own Goyf, especially in a Merfolk deck. Not to mention the other white cards available and swords is just good. If you don't like thrasher that is fine, then run 12 lords plus the other stuff in the list you posted
Use your board sweeper situation, they sweep your board then you vial in thrasher and swing with a big fish.
The best argument is still Goyf's looking at each other sucks ass, especially when your fish are swimming through. Or if your playing zoo their creatures are still going to be bigger and you need more lords/Folk
@MightyManfredtheWonderDog: Price of Progress is just going to eat you up. Yum.
Although he is insane (and very, very stupid) there is the possibility that he doesn't have a PoP-heavy meta. In some metas where there's a lot of tribal/combo/monocolor (usually places like where I live, where people think Baneslayers are better investments than Duals), people don't run nonbasic hate. He might be in a meta that's slowly shifting to something a little less budgeted, where he can have nonbasic hate yet not be threatened by it.
Or there's also the (greater) possibility that he's 12 (or just acting as such). Either way, he should probably invest in a pair of Spell Snare in place of those Needles. They're a really good Anti-Goyf measure, whereas Goyf is not, too.
Sorry, mods. I have this wierd tendency to be "condescending" to people who (really) deserve it (a lot).
EDIT: @ MR: I'm trying the list with 2 Vaults for now to see how it goes.
To perhaps give a more calm analysis of the W splash vs. G splash vs. mono U.
The white splash lets you run up to 8 Swords effects to answer creatures. This is something no other splash can offer, and it also lets you have Disenchant effects for problem artifacts and enchantments. This provides you with the best anti-Goyf measure in Swords. You also have Absolute Law to protect your creatures from burn and Firespout.
The green splash gives you Tarmogoyf. He isn't good against Zoo, they have Qasali Pridemage, Grim Lavamancer and burn to make sure they will always win 'Goyf wars. A Lavamancer and a 3/3 Nacatl can even bring down a 'Goyf sometimes. Tarmogoyf is good as a stand-alone beater that lives through Firespout, this is a bonus. You get Steely Resolve as a sideboard option to protect all your Merfolk from targeted removal.
The mono-blue version doesn't have problems with Stifle and has fewer problems with Wasteland. Your answer to Tarmogoyf is to Islandwalk past them or bounce them and against Zoo you can bring in things to stop the red aspect of the deck, but not the blue so much. You get Kira, Great Glass-Spinner as an answer to targeted removal.
Personal opinion: White offers the most sideboard options to not lose to red decks as well as being able to answer the most diverse range of threats, such as any creature with your Swords effects and problem enchantments/artifacts with Disenchant or similar. That said, I wouldn't splash unless you see a lot Zoo or Goyf Sligh in your metagame, I am really the only Zoo player in mine at the moment, so if I play Merfolk I play mono-U to keep my blue matchups(more common) better.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MTG Rules Advisor
I currently play only two formats, what I play in them is:
Legacy: Domain Zoo, RGW Zoo, Merfolk, Solidarity, Mono Black Aggro
EDH: Kagemaro, First to Suffer
... You DO know that Vialing in a creature a spell does not make, right?:raise:
I might try some MD Psionic Blast sometime it sounds like a (prepare for intense puns) blast
I hate myself for that one.
TBH, I didnt know that Vialing didnt trigger Reejerey's effect. I thought it was when a Merfolk came into play, good thing I dont have this deck completed and try THAT at a tournament >.< (Been playing with friends, but it's been forever since I played that deck xD)
And to be honest, there's a LOT I still dont know about MTG. I've been playing for about a year and a half now, I have a lot to learn. Whatever help I can get makes me that much better ^^
Right. You don't get the trigger. What you want to do is play a creature and untap the vial. Very handy if you snatch a couple fishies off of a broken Standstill. That is one of the key ways you can swarm quickly.
More rules fun. So I have Merrow Reejery and three Islands in play, and want to play Sovereign. Is there any way I can dodge Daze by using Reejery's ability? AFAIK, the triggered ability goes on the stack once I pay the costs of Sovereign (or does Reejery imply "successfully cast"?), but they can then play Daze on top of the stack, and I won't be able to get mana until the Reejery's ability resolves for me to untap an Island for more mana. Is that correct?
As soon as you announce that you're casting Sovereign, Merrow Reejerey's ability goes on the stack. (Sovereign does not need to be successfully cast.) If they then respond to the ability by casting Daze, then you're correct -- you would not get to untap the island to cast something like Spell Snare on their Daze. Daze would resolve, countering your Sovereign, then you get to untap a permanent (like the island).
As soon as you announce that you're casting Sovereign, Merrow Reejerey's ability goes on the stack.
Reejerey's ability doesn't go on the stack when you announce you're casting, you have to complete all the steps of casting the spell (pay costs, etc) before the ability triggers.
The argument is okay but isn't the best argument to use, (this is all my opinion) but I have tested goyf in Merfolk and most of the times when I had goyf I was wishing it was a merfolk. 2 Goyfs just looking at each other isn't that cool especially when your other Merfolk are swinging with Islandwalk(most goyfs are in blue decks so that is very relevant). A lot of the time their Goyfs are backed with Noble Hierarch so Merfolk Goyf gets owned. Also not to mention those same decks are running spellsnare, but it is nice to vial in a goyf.
Wake thrasher can easily be 8/8+ when vialed in at the end of your opp's turn
Not to mention burn/ Lavamancer backup for decks like Tempo Thresh and Zoo, which is the more common occurrence.
I am petitioning to get players to stop complaining about mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
Another great point fearmordie, which basically I was trying to say just couldn't come up with all the different examples.
No one is saying Goyf is a crappy creature, but I just don't think it is that great in Merfolk based on some examples that have been mentioned. I would rather have a white splash to have 4 Swords to answer/counter big threats (Goyf) and then do what Merfolk does best... Help each other and swing for the win.
Also swords keeps your FOW open for more of game ending threats which I think helps a lot.
Ps Just read your last Merfolk quote Fearmeordie, which is very true lol... I reason why I stopped playing Merfolk. Its so good vs other blue but sucks serious ass vs anything red. I think the deck has peaked and now countertop is not running rampant (at least in my meta) Merfolk isn't that strong, but still good.
Also, what do youse guys think of Saprazzan Legate as SST against Goblin Lackey/Warren Instigator?
I am petitioning to get players to stop complaining about mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
If he was a Merfolk he might be just barely playable, because then he could survive Lightning Bolt and Kird Ape, with a Lord out.
J
Also, since when do Goblins run Bolt OR Kird Ape?
I am petitioning to get players to stop complaining about mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
He is a Merfolk. I know it's insane but....
http://www.wizards.com/magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/feature/424a3
My bad.
Never. My (poorly-stated) point was, if you want to run him at all, it would be beneficial if he was not too narrow, that is good in some other match-ups too. If he is strictly to own Goblins then maybe he's great, idk.
If you want to have a more general answer that might be useful in other match-ups then Blue Elemental Blast or Hydroblast might be OK.
Sapprazan Legate sounds OK.
J
You don't need to cut Wastes or Vaults.
3x Trop
6x Fetch
4x Vault
4x Factory
4x Island
When I say play Goyf, I assumed you were good at magic, I guess I assumed wrong. Why would you drop Goyf with 3 dudes in play? Why overextend?The whole point of the card is that you DON"T over commit. Your dudes get swept away, you drop a 4/5, its that simple. Goyf is a better Wakethrasher. I tested Goyfolk against Supreme Blue and won 11 out of 15 games, against a very good player. I would play a lord or two, he would firespout or StP. Late game, I finish with Goyfs and Vaults. (Clearly simplified but the point is, I would have lost those games if I didn't run Goyf).
The burn argument isnt the best. We play permission, remember? We counter Zoo's Goyfs, thats our gameplan. They don't have islands so a Goyf is instalose. When your opponent doesn't have a goyf in play, it is ALWAYS a 2 for 1, except for Path. And remember, any removal targeting a Goyf is removal drawn away from our Lords.
The fact that it weakens the manabase is a weak argument. You can play around stifle, and rarely do you need to play an early goyf. Goyf gives you a late game.
// Lands
4 [UNH] Island
4 [MOR] Mutavault
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [B] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
// Creatures
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher
4 [B] Lord of Atlantis
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
1 [M10] Merfolk Sovereign
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [OD] Standstill
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [FD] Trinket Mage
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
This is Alex Bertoncini's list. It is amazing, test it.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
I asked you, in mod capacity, to knock off the ad homs. Now, I can either warn/infract you for diobeying a direct mod request, or for flaming. Consider this your last warning.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
Seems mighty suspect. If I needed additional evasion and people around me didn't play enough Islands I'd probably consider island-makers instead. Also you're putting more U symbols in your deck, which probably has 7-8 colorless land. Let us know how it works out, though!
EDIT: That last sentence wasn't supposed to be snarky. While I'm not too confident in that change, it'd be awesome if you did some playtesting and told us how it went.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
I have not tried Wake Thrasher out yet, but I do not think I have ever been able to hardcast Sovereign. I can never keep two Islands out where I did not want to tap one for Stifle, Mutavault, or something else. Bouncing those Islands often keeps me with less out than I'd like, too. Thrasher might help me out...I could also just run three Mutavaults, too....
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Sorry dude, insulting people doesn't make your argument any better. True Goyf can be better than Trasher in certain situations but Thrasher can be better then goyf in certain situations. Swords is better counter for Goyf then playing your own Goyf, especially in a Merfolk deck. Not to mention the other white cards available and swords is just good. If you don't like thrasher that is fine, then run 12 lords plus the other stuff in the list you posted
Use your board sweeper situation, they sweep your board then you vial in thrasher and swing with a big fish.
The best argument is still Goyf's looking at each other sucks ass, especially when your fish are swimming through. Or if your playing zoo their creatures are still going to be bigger and you need more lords/Folk
Although he is insane (and very, very stupid) there is the possibility that he doesn't have a PoP-heavy meta. In some metas where there's a lot of tribal/combo/monocolor (usually places like where I live, where people think Baneslayers are better investments than Duals), people don't run nonbasic hate. He might be in a meta that's slowly shifting to something a little less budgeted, where he can have nonbasic hate yet not be threatened by it.
Or there's also the (greater) possibility that he's 12 (or just acting as such). Either way, he should probably invest in a pair of Spell Snare in place of those Needles. They're a really good Anti-Goyf measure, whereas Goyf is not, too.
Sorry, mods. I have this wierd tendency to be "condescending" to people who (really) deserve it (a lot).
EDIT: @ MR: I'm trying the list with 2 Vaults for now to see how it goes.
I am petitioning to get players to stop complaining about mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
The white splash lets you run up to 8 Swords effects to answer creatures. This is something no other splash can offer, and it also lets you have Disenchant effects for problem artifacts and enchantments. This provides you with the best anti-Goyf measure in Swords. You also have Absolute Law to protect your creatures from burn and Firespout.
The green splash gives you Tarmogoyf. He isn't good against Zoo, they have Qasali Pridemage, Grim Lavamancer and burn to make sure they will always win 'Goyf wars. A Lavamancer and a 3/3 Nacatl can even bring down a 'Goyf sometimes. Tarmogoyf is good as a stand-alone beater that lives through Firespout, this is a bonus. You get Steely Resolve as a sideboard option to protect all your Merfolk from targeted removal.
The mono-blue version doesn't have problems with Stifle and has fewer problems with Wasteland. Your answer to Tarmogoyf is to Islandwalk past them or bounce them and against Zoo you can bring in things to stop the red aspect of the deck, but not the blue so much. You get Kira, Great Glass-Spinner as an answer to targeted removal.
Personal opinion: White offers the most sideboard options to not lose to red decks as well as being able to answer the most diverse range of threats, such as any creature with your Swords effects and problem enchantments/artifacts with Disenchant or similar. That said, I wouldn't splash unless you see a lot Zoo or Goyf Sligh in your metagame, I am really the only Zoo player in mine at the moment, so if I play Merfolk I play mono-U to keep my blue matchups(more common) better.
I currently play only two formats, what I play in them is:
Legacy: Domain Zoo, RGW Zoo, Merfolk, Solidarity, Mono Black Aggro
EDH: Kagemaro, First to Suffer
I remember I tried a Red splash (for Lavamancer and Bolt) once.
That was an extremely bad idea.
I am petitioning to get players to stop complaining about mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
Yep and your sig says it all... haha
Legacy
UMerfolkU
GWREnchantressRWG
GWRUBT.E.S.BURWG
TBH, I didnt know that Vialing didnt trigger Reejerey's effect. I thought it was when a Merfolk came into play, good thing I dont have this deck completed and try THAT at a tournament >.< (Been playing with friends, but it's been forever since I played that deck xD)
And to be honest, there's a LOT I still dont know about MTG. I've been playing for about a year and a half now, I have a lot to learn. Whatever help I can get makes me that much better ^^
Heroes of the Plane
The Price of Legacy
The Price of Legacy 2.0!
Decks:
EDH
Malestrom Wanderer Group Chaotic Hugs
Tasigur, The Golden Fang Valu-Town
Modern
Too many to List...
Legacy
GWBNic-Fit PodGWB
G12-Post (Building)G
Heroes of the Plane
The Price of Legacy
The Price of Legacy 2.0!
Decks:
EDH
Malestrom Wanderer Group Chaotic Hugs
Tasigur, The Golden Fang Valu-Town
Modern
Too many to List...
Legacy
GWBNic-Fit PodGWB
G12-Post (Building)G
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Reejerey's ability doesn't go on the stack when you announce you're casting, you have to complete all the steps of casting the spell (pay costs, etc) before the ability triggers.
Why would you Spell Snare the Daze instead of just paying for it?
ゆっくりしていってね!!!