Library is banned for a reason, don't desturb sleeping bears.
If you are going to unban library you should just unban mana drain and end it all. You dont want to make control even strong in legacy. I think their format is one of the most stable the way it is.
look the real reason why library was banned in the first place was that it was on the vintage restricted list. when they first started off with a legacy banned list they merely imported most of the cards from that list.
i agree mana drain should be unbanned as well. it might make stax played more than ever though.
look the real reason why library was banned in the first place was that it was on the vintage restricted list. when they first started off with a legacy banned list they merely imported most of the cards from that list.
i agree mana drain should be unbanned as well. it might make stax played more than ever though.
Are you kidding me? Playing 4 mana drains in legacy landstill would be insane. I happened to had a chance to play mana drains in landstill before the seperation between the two banned lists(Type 1.5 and 1) and that experience was beyond amazing.
I still argue for unbanning. Look, I was around back in the early '90s. Library just wouldn't be anything special right now.
The last time Library was legal there had not yet been a successful tournament caliber combo deck. The last time Library was legal Sligh didn't exist yet. The last time Library was legal outside of Vintage "The Deck" and usenet were still around. The last time Library was legal you drew a card on the play. Also, Duress, Therapy, Thoughtseize and Hymn weren't around either. Nor Wasteland and Pithing Needle.
None of those things are still in effect. Library costs a land drop and a mana to draw a card with a severe restriction. It's worthless in the early game outside of a landstill mirror. Because vs. aggro or combo you've got to use cards out of your hand so you can't keep seven. It would be a good draw engine late game for a control deck that had managed to refill it's hand. That's about it. As a draw engine, Library has nothing on Loam+Cycling lands and I don't really see anyone complaining about that.
LoA is possibly just one of those cards that time has passed by. I'm not saying that a new deck abusing it wouldn't pop up, but it doesn't break any currently played deck.
I still argue for unbanning. Look, I was around back in the early '90s. Library just wouldn't be anything special right now.
The last time Library was legal there had not yet been a successful tournament caliber combo deck. The last time Library was legal Sligh didn't exist yet. The last time Library was legal outside of Vintage "The Deck" and usenet were still around. The last time Library was legal you drew a card on the play. Also, Duress, Therapy, Thoughtseize and Hymn weren't around either. Nor Wasteland and Pithing Needle.
None of those things are still in effect. Library costs a land drop and a mana to draw a card with a severe restriction. It's worthless in the early game outside of a landstill mirror. Because vs. aggro or combo you've got to use cards out of your hand so you can't keep seven. It would be a good draw engine late game for a control deck that had managed to refill it's hand. That's about it. As a draw engine, Library has nothing on Loam+Cycling lands and I don't really see anyone complaining about that.
LoA is possibly just one of those cards that time has passed by. I'm not saying that a new deck abusing it wouldn't pop up, but it doesn't break any currently played deck.
Its from the same ancient time as Library of Alexandria, where people horded cards in their hands for several turns, mainly due to the format being so slow.
I don't think either LoA or Black Vise is a grave enough threat to be banned in the current meta. Are they powerful cards? Yes. Should they continue to be banned? No.
Just look at Vintage... they unbanned a whole ton of cards (which had been banned since 1998 or before), and it barely affected the meta. The game has progressed beyond these cards (or at least to the point where they are no longer bah-roken).
Other than being a single card as opposed to a three-card combo and costing :1mana:/turn rather than :1mana::symg::symrg::symrg:/turn, you mean? (plus other minor stuff like colourlessness, being active as soon as turn 1, being playable on your opponent's EOT, working under Standstill and Counterbalance... all of which are however negligible in comparison to the first two)
life from the loam +cycling is a better draw engine than library imho. why? library is conditional on having exactly 7 cards in hand before you can activate. library doesn't say tap: draw a card without any conditions.
you have far more situation where you can use life from the loam + cycling lands than you do library. let's not even compare the two. be honestly how often in legacy do you have a full grip of 7 cards?
Its from the same ancient time as Library of Alexandria, where people horded cards in their hands for several turns, mainly due to the format being so slow.
I don't think either LoA or Black Vise is a grave enough threat to be banned in the current meta. Are they powerful cards? Yes. Should they continue to be banned? No.
Just look at Vintage... they unbanned a whole ton of cards (which had been banned since 1998 or before), and it barely affected the meta. The game has progressed beyond these cards (or at least to the point where they are no longer bah-roken).
ya i played back since beta, and i agree the format is a lot faster now. hell of a lot faster. there was a time frame when recurring hammer of bogardan was considered too "strong". now of course, reprinting hammer and putting into standard might be considered laughable.
Are you kidding me? Mana Drain is a gamebreaking card that has overwhelmed the format, and would do so again if it were unbanned.
mana drain is a good card no doubt. is it format breaking? let's compare flash to mana drain....
i think mana drain in the format would allow some more "old school decks" and obviously allow goodies like disk to get more play time.
but this thread is about unbanning library of alexandria. the card isn't format warping and wouldn't "break" the format. black vise would fall into that category as well.
Maybe the control decks of today don't keep exactly seven in their grip because they have no need to? There's nothing currently benefitting them to do that. If Library were unbanned, surely the style of play would change. Dropping LoA 1st turn on the draw can really put you ahead in CA, and if you're a serious control deck you will be able to stop the tempo rush of the opposing deck. Once you start drawing with that thing, it's very easy to stay at 7 cards. During your turn you make a land drop + answer to oppo's threat/s, and keep at 7.
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Maybe the control decks of today don't keep exactly seven in their grip because they have no need to? There's nothing currently benefitting them to do that. If Library were unbanned, surely the style of play would change. Dropping LoA 1st turn on the draw can really put you ahead in CA, and if you're a serious control deck you will be able to stop the tempo rush of the opposing deck. Once you start drawing with that thing, it's very easy to stay at 7 cards. During your turn you make a land drop + answer to oppo's threat/s, and keep at 7.
You'll be lucky to get one activation out of LoA in the current meta.
On the draw.
Draw a card. 8 cards.
Play LoA. 7 cards. Pass the turn.
Your opponent, fresh with at MINIMUM 2 mana, is probably going to do something nasty, like Hymn to Tourach, Tarmogoyf, activate Aether Vial, or some other nonsense. If you are the control deck, you need to respond.
Activate LoA. 8 cards. use Force of Will to stop their silliness. 6 cards
Your turn. Draw a card. 7 cards.
Now, you can either activate the LoA now, or make a land drop. So, you'd have to be way behind in mana development to use the LoA. After this, the LoA starts losing its card draw effectiveness, and is just a nonbasic that reads "tap: add 1 to your mana pool."
You guys realize that if they unbanned Library in Legacy it will almost triple in price, right?
Library is broken and should never even be considered to be unbanned. Do you know how sick they are in multiples? If I have two in play, I draw an extra two cards a turn. It would be ridiculous.
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The meta would change. Of course, it wouldn't invalidate all the other non-LoA decks, but control would become much stronger. And the control mirror would be decided on LoA advantage. And there's several decks which don't actually do anything the forst few turns, (granted, they are mostly control decks), but even Threshold usually doesn't drop their Goyfs straight away, preferring to cantripping first.
On your example - I don't necessarily need to use FoW on his Goyf, for example. Why, I would much prefer to StP him, and get more cards of LoA. And even then, what's so wrong with using LoA during your turn?
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Original quote byTacosnape "All ideas that give me knowledge without any effort involved on my part are good ideas. Chop chop, my dear fellow."
DCI L2 Judge GP:Madrid 2010 45th GP:Amsterdam 2011 74th GP:London 2013 67th Bazaar of Moxen 2013 32nd
You'll be lucky to get one activation out of LoA in the current meta.
You can get multiple activations of LOA in Vintage. Somehow I doubt that's easier than it would be in Legacy considering all the benefits in that format of not keeping a 7 card hand.
In fact this entire argument is silly for that simple fact. The card was ridiculous and one of the defining cards for control mirrors in Vintage for years while being fine in other matches. Unless you want to argue Legacy decks are somehow more powerful than Vintage decks, seems pretty silly to hear about letting it loose in weaker formats. Let alone in one where one of the top strategies in the format is CB-Top, which prides itself on shutting down a good deal of opponent's decks with minimal loss of cards and mana.
You can get multiple activations of LOA in Vintage. Somehow I doubt that's easier than it would be in Legacy considering all the benefits in that format of not keeping a 7 card hand.
In fact this entire argument is silly for that simple fact. The card was ridiculous and one of the defining cards for control mirrors in Vintage for years while being fine in other matches. Unless you want to argue Legacy decks are somehow more powerful than Vintage decks, seems pretty silly to hear about letting it loose in weaker formats. Let alone in one where one of the top strategies in the format is CB-Top, which prides itself on shutting down a good deal of opponent's decks with minimal loss of cards and mana.
In Vintage, you have access to the power 9, which allow you to activate the LoA on your turn and still drop a mana artifact for no mana (and no card disadvantage, keeping your hand size at 7).
Since the only extra mana you could drop in Legacy is Mox Diamond or Chrome Mox, the ability for the LoA deck to make up lost tempo is limited. If you try to drop one of those zero mana artifacts, your hand size drops to 6, making an activation of the Library troublesome.
Its still a strong card, but not ban worthy in Legacy.
Because there is this thing called a maximum hand size. Congrats on your Merfolk Looter.
Thank you.
Now, a bit offtopic, but a land with Merfolk Looter abilities would also be insanely broken. Slightly less so than LoA.
And I was responding to your example, where you said either to make a land drop and miss LoA activation, or miss a land drop and activate it at Oppo's EoT. So you just activate it, and make a land drop. Yes, you're behind on mana. But you're already far in CA, and can make more next turn. And the next turn. And so on.
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Because there is this thing called a maximum hand size. Congrats on your Merfolk Looter.
In Vintage, you have access to the power 9, which allow you to activate the LoA on your turn and still drop a mana artifact for no mana (and no card disadvantage, keeping your hand size at 7).
Since the only extra mana you could drop in Legacy is Mox Diamond or Chrome Mox, the ability for the LoA deck to make up lost tempo is limited. If you try to drop one of those zero mana artifacts, your hand size drops to 6, making an activation of the Library troublesome.
Its still a strong card, but not ban worthy in Legacy.
Why does it have to be a Mox? Why can't you just make a land drop?
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wait, why are we comparing vintage and legacy again?
I mean, i can see the relevance because both formats have the same top 3 decks and same playstyles and cardlists and all, but otherwise, I don't get it.
In Vintage, you have access to the power 9, which allow you to activate the LoA on your turn and still drop a mana artifact for no mana (and no card disadvantage, keeping your hand size at 7).
Since the only extra mana you could drop in Legacy is Mox Diamond or Chrome Mox, the ability for the LoA deck to make up lost tempo is limited. If you try to drop one of those zero mana artifacts, your hand size drops to 6, making an activation of the Library troublesome.
Uh... what?
Assuming your talking about turn one here. On the draw:
Vintage: Play LOA (7 cards), draw a card (8 cards), play Mox (7 cards) end turn
Legacy: Play LOA (7 cards), draw a card (8 cards), play Mox + 1 (6 cards) end turn
By the time you would get to use it again, you've drawn back up to 7 cards. Fail to see the troublesome part here. Yeah, in Vintage you get to lay your 2nd land before you would draw off LOA again, but more than likely the Mox you laid on T1 is off-color anyway which means you still were only playing with 1U for mana on T2.
Anyway, regardless if LOA decks were to use Moxen or not in Legacy is still basically irrel. The point is that drawing cards at effectively 1 mana a turn in any sort of Thresh / Landstill / CB-Top mirror borders on the retarded and forces a huge change in how strategy in that match would play out.
*The new strategy involving drawing more LOA / Wastes than the opponent.
I am against it for one reason and one reason only. GP Chicago. I would be terrified of another GP Flash. Absolutely terrified. Because GP Flash scared a lot of players away from the format. Because Legacy is the less Combo-centric version of Vintage. A format in which you still use the attack step to win, and in which one single card doesn't define the format. Granted, it's not like that in Vintage, but most new players think that no Vintage deck can be good without power. I would be terrified of LOA being unbanned in time for GP Chicago and roaming mostly unchecked. I know there's a B/R announcement in March, but to unban it now, and reban it in March would almost act as a format "reset". When it got rebanned (And I'm 99.9999999999999% positive it would) the format would have about a week before GP Chicago to redefine itself.
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SKRules on Dark Rit art
5th is just a guy snapping his fingers. Maybe Nicol Bolas can get mana that way, but I can't.
I still argue for unbanning. Look, I was around back in the early '90s. Library just wouldn't be anything special right now.
The last time Library was legal there had not yet been a successful tournament caliber combo deck. The last time Library was legal Sligh didn't exist yet. The last time Library was legal outside of Vintage "The Deck" and usenet were still around. The last time Library was legal you drew a card on the play. Also, Duress, Therapy, Thoughtseize and Hymn weren't around either. Nor Wasteland and Pithing Needle.
I would like to beg to differ, Remember that the Vintage to Legacy schism occurred in the early 2000's late 1990's... not in the early 1990's. So in essence, Library would have indeed existed alongside of Duress, Wasteland, Cabal Therapy, and Hymn to Tourach. Not to mention Sinkhole has always existed alongside of Library of Alexandria. So in short, there has always been ways to deal with the Library in some capacity.
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look the argument stands that in legacy nearly every deck tends to have less than 7 cards in hand. many legacy decks tend to be more tempo oriented and hymn to tourach is very abundant in the meta as well.
how many hands and opportunities would you honestly get to use library's draw ability?
how many archetypes outside of control would run it?
You'll be lucky to get one activation out of LoA in the current meta.
On the draw.
Draw a card. 8 cards.
Play LoA. 7 cards. Pass the turn.
Your opponent, fresh with at MINIMUM 2 mana, is probably going to do something nasty, like Hymn to Tourach, Tarmogoyf, activate Aether Vial, or some other nonsense. If you are the control deck, you need to respond.
Activate LoA. 8 cards. use Force of Will to stop their silliness. 6 cards
Your turn. Draw a card. 7 cards.
Now, you can either activate the LoA now, or make a land drop. So, you'd have to be way behind in mana development to use the LoA. After this, the LoA starts losing its card draw effectiveness, and is just a nonbasic that reads "tap: add 1 to your mana pool."
I don't think I'd play it in the current meta.
because standstill, brainstorm, ponder and fact or fiction never see play, right?
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look the real reason why library was banned in the first place was that it was on the vintage restricted list. when they first started off with a legacy banned list they merely imported most of the cards from that list.
i agree mana drain should be unbanned as well. it might make stax played more than ever though.
The format is fine as is.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
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The last time Library was legal there had not yet been a successful tournament caliber combo deck. The last time Library was legal Sligh didn't exist yet. The last time Library was legal outside of Vintage "The Deck" and usenet were still around. The last time Library was legal you drew a card on the play. Also, Duress, Therapy, Thoughtseize and Hymn weren't around either. Nor Wasteland and Pithing Needle.
None of those things are still in effect. Library costs a land drop and a mana to draw a card with a severe restriction. It's worthless in the early game outside of a landstill mirror. Because vs. aggro or combo you've got to use cards out of your hand so you can't keep seven. It would be a good draw engine late game for a control deck that had managed to refill it's hand. That's about it. As a draw engine, Library has nothing on Loam+Cycling lands and I don't really see anyone complaining about that.
LoA is possibly just one of those cards that time has passed by. I'm not saying that a new deck abusing it wouldn't pop up, but it doesn't break any currently played deck.
It's still all circumstantial.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
why is black vise banned?
Its from the same ancient time as Library of Alexandria, where people horded cards in their hands for several turns, mainly due to the format being so slow.
I don't think either LoA or Black Vise is a grave enough threat to be banned in the current meta. Are they powerful cards? Yes. Should they continue to be banned? No.
Just look at Vintage... they unbanned a whole ton of cards (which had been banned since 1998 or before), and it barely affected the meta. The game has progressed beyond these cards (or at least to the point where they are no longer bah-roken).
Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc
life from the loam +cycling is a better draw engine than library imho. why? library is conditional on having exactly 7 cards in hand before you can activate. library doesn't say tap: draw a card without any conditions.
you have far more situation where you can use life from the loam + cycling lands than you do library. let's not even compare the two. be honestly how often in legacy do you have a full grip of 7 cards?
ya i played back since beta, and i agree the format is a lot faster now. hell of a lot faster. there was a time frame when recurring hammer of bogardan was considered too "strong". now of course, reprinting hammer and putting into standard might be considered laughable.
Are you kidding me? Mana Drain is a gamebreaking card that has overwhelmed the format, and would do so again if it were unbanned.
mana drain is a good card no doubt. is it format breaking? let's compare flash to mana drain....
i think mana drain in the format would allow some more "old school decks" and obviously allow goodies like disk to get more play time.
but this thread is about unbanning library of alexandria. the card isn't format warping and wouldn't "break" the format. black vise would fall into that category as well.
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You'll be lucky to get one activation out of LoA in the current meta.
On the draw.
Draw a card. 8 cards.
Play LoA. 7 cards. Pass the turn.
Your opponent, fresh with at MINIMUM 2 mana, is probably going to do something nasty, like Hymn to Tourach, Tarmogoyf, activate Aether Vial, or some other nonsense. If you are the control deck, you need to respond.
Activate LoA. 8 cards. use Force of Will to stop their silliness. 6 cards
Your turn. Draw a card. 7 cards.
Now, you can either activate the LoA now, or make a land drop. So, you'd have to be way behind in mana development to use the LoA. After this, the LoA starts losing its card draw effectiveness, and is just a nonbasic that reads "tap: add 1 to your mana pool."
I don't think I'd play it in the current meta.
Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc
Library is broken and should never even be considered to be unbanned. Do you know how sick they are in multiples? If I have two in play, I draw an extra two cards a turn. It would be ridiculous.
7th Place out of 22 people with Enchantress Bloom @The Dragon's Lair in Springfield, MA. (11/19/06). (Legacy)
On your example - I don't necessarily need to use FoW on his Goyf, for example. Why, I would much prefer to StP him, and get more cards of LoA. And even then, what's so wrong with using LoA during your turn?
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You can get multiple activations of LOA in Vintage. Somehow I doubt that's easier than it would be in Legacy considering all the benefits in that format of not keeping a 7 card hand.
In fact this entire argument is silly for that simple fact. The card was ridiculous and one of the defining cards for control mirrors in Vintage for years while being fine in other matches. Unless you want to argue Legacy decks are somehow more powerful than Vintage decks, seems pretty silly to hear about letting it loose in weaker formats. Let alone in one where one of the top strategies in the format is CB-Top, which prides itself on shutting down a good deal of opponent's decks with minimal loss of cards and mana.
Because there is this thing called a maximum hand size. Congrats on your Merfolk Looter.
In Vintage, you have access to the power 9, which allow you to activate the LoA on your turn and still drop a mana artifact for no mana (and no card disadvantage, keeping your hand size at 7).
Since the only extra mana you could drop in Legacy is Mox Diamond or Chrome Mox, the ability for the LoA deck to make up lost tempo is limited. If you try to drop one of those zero mana artifacts, your hand size drops to 6, making an activation of the Library troublesome.
Its still a strong card, but not ban worthy in Legacy.
Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc
Thank you.
Now, a bit offtopic, but a land with Merfolk Looter abilities would also be insanely broken. Slightly less so than LoA.
And I was responding to your example, where you said either to make a land drop and miss LoA activation, or miss a land drop and activate it at Oppo's EoT. So you just activate it, and make a land drop. Yes, you're behind on mana. But you're already far in CA, and can make more next turn. And the next turn. And so on.
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Why does it have to be a Mox? Why can't you just make a land drop?
7th Place out of 22 people with Enchantress Bloom @The Dragon's Lair in Springfield, MA. (11/19/06). (Legacy)
I mean, i can see the relevance because both formats have the same top 3 decks and same playstyles and cardlists and all, but otherwise, I don't get it.
Uh... what?
Assuming your talking about turn one here. On the draw:
Vintage: Play LOA (7 cards), draw a card (8 cards), play Mox (7 cards) end turn
Legacy: Play LOA (7 cards), draw a card (8 cards), play Mox + 1 (6 cards) end turn
By the time you would get to use it again, you've drawn back up to 7 cards. Fail to see the troublesome part here. Yeah, in Vintage you get to lay your 2nd land before you would draw off LOA again, but more than likely the Mox you laid on T1 is off-color anyway which means you still were only playing with 1U for mana on T2.
Anyway, regardless if LOA decks were to use Moxen or not in Legacy is still basically irrel. The point is that drawing cards at effectively 1 mana a turn in any sort of Thresh / Landstill / CB-Top mirror borders on the retarded and forces a huge change in how strategy in that match would play out.
*The new strategy involving drawing more LOA / Wastes than the opponent.
I would like to beg to differ, Remember that the Vintage to Legacy schism occurred in the early 2000's late 1990's... not in the early 1990's. So in essence, Library would have indeed existed alongside of Duress, Wasteland, Cabal Therapy, and Hymn to Tourach. Not to mention Sinkhole has always existed alongside of Library of Alexandria. So in short, there has always been ways to deal with the Library in some capacity.
how many hands and opportunities would you honestly get to use library's draw ability?
how many archetypes outside of control would run it?
because standstill, brainstorm, ponder and fact or fiction never see play, right?