This is the most recent list Isamaru posted before his departure. Hopefully, putting this thread back into Decks for Critique will create serious discussion about the list, as well as the possibility of developing the deck to make it a serious competitive deck in the current Legacy format.
Trinket Mage package, also allowing for top-counterbalance in the main, and 1 tormod's crypt main, helping the pre and post board ichorid matchups, also fetches scepter and stylus, also finds explosives versus gobbos, and needle when necessary. Seems very solid.
Offalsnout: A great solution to anything grave-based, especially ichorid. Evoke, remove all bridges, nail a dread return sounds pretty good.
Well, Stephen's deck is already a serious deck... but if your goal is to have it be a force in the format, it's not going to work in that way for two reasons:
This would only happen if it constituted a large part of a metagame... which it can never do because the mirror match is impossibly strange / should never be played out. Also, nobody was willing to play it in an unadulterated form because nobody fully understood the card choices, and the choices change at least monthly.
The minute it becomes well known or a large part of a metagame, the rest will adjust to hate it out, which can be done by playing certain cards such as Pernicious Deed and Smother in conjunction, or a large part of the metagame being board control /prison decks.
The cards you listed for consideration are pretty far off - they don't improve any of the deck's weaknesses. (Also, your matchup estimates are wrong - the fundamental problems for the deck are board control / prison and sometimes Threshold, but not Breakfast or Dredge.)
Anyway, Stephen and I are attending a few tournaments in the coming weeks, so he may be updating things online soon. We'll see how it goes.
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Well, Stephen's deck is already a serious deck... but if your goal is to have it be a force in the format, it's not going to work in that way for two reasons:
This would only happen if it constituted a large part of a metagame... which it can never do because the mirror match is impossibly strange / should never be played out. Also, nobody was willing to play it in an unadulterated form because nobody fully understood the card choices, and the choices change at least monthly.
The minute it becomes well known or a large part of a metagame, the rest will adjust to hate it out, which can be done by playing certain cards such as Pernicious Deed and Smother in conjunction, or a large part of the metagame being board control /prison decks.
The cards you listed for consideration are pretty far off - they don't improve any of the deck's weaknesses. (Also, your matchup estimates are wrong - the fundamental problems for the deck are board control / prison and sometimes Threshold, but not Breakfast or Dredge.)
Anyway, Stephen and I are attending a few tournaments in the coming weeks, so he may be updating things online soon. We'll see how it goes.
To 1 and 2: I meant get it winning big tournaments. I never meant have it take up a large chunk of the metagame.
The cards I listed were just ideas. Trinket Mage seems to fit the deck... and it helps find answers... and basically ensures you don't get double scepter/stylus, reducing dead draws. Other than that, they were just like... I wonder if it fits here? ideas.
Stephen seemed like he was officially done discussing the deck online... that's why I made this thread. If he comes back online, maybe YuanTi could revive the old thread in the DTB.
EDIT: I took out the matchups. If you could give post FS matchup numbers, that'd be great!
The list in the original post is basically useless. With Threshold being such a large part of the meta-game right now you need a better way to address Counter-Top than hoping you get Vial and at least one Scepter effect down undisrupted.
I think the list needs the 4th Horror. Horror is big enough to race any even semi-commonly played threat in the meta besides Dreadnought. Even just running it out turn 2 without protection you can race the 2 3/3s. Being able to end the game quickly is extremely important against Goblins. This deck should never win the long game against Goblins now that it has Wort (this is especially true if the Goblins player is running 2x Wort). Your only real hope would be to get a "drake-lock" and have the Stifles for every Wasteland they might have.
Riptide Lab is not strong enough to include. Basically all of the top tier decks are running non-basic hate, even some Threshold is running Blood Moon now. Paying 4 mana (and most likely a turn) for a bad Index is not good enough. 3-colored Threshold decks are running 4 basics and they have 6-8 fetches and 10-12 cantrip effects just to get around the non-basic hate, and none of their mana-producing lands are colorless. At least Stronghold has the ability to completely lock some decks out of the game, Lab just lets you chump block and Index.
I'm not sure I thought it was something, that people kept proposing the same weak cards( like Phyrexian Dreadnought) over and over( it was a very long thread) and he wanted to keep his deck under the rader.
Vile Horror is very different from Dreadstill, so why do you compare both decks. This deck has far more an aggro feel than Dreadnought. It's plan is to overwhelm the opponent with beaters and not create a very large creature and protect it.
Wich bring me to the point about Phyrexian Dreadnought. It doesn't really belong here. Sure it works nice with Stifle and decent with Aether Vial, but the other creatures have more advantage:
Hunted Horror/Hunted Phatasm, they have the possibility to make become more creatures, so they are saver against spot removal. They also combo with Stifle and Echoing Truth.
Gilded Drake can do combat tricks with Aether Vial, trades nice with Goyf, and combo with Echoing Truth.
Phyrexian Dreadnought is a single creature, that only comboes well with Stifle( Aether Vial is on 2 most of the time). If Stifle gets countered you just lost 2 cards. If it happens with the Hunted, you can still draw into Echoing Truth/Brand afterwards.
About mcfarlands list. The list looks quite slow. Now that isn't a problem, because you play quite some disruption. 19 mana is quite low with your curve though. Also no draw-engine is quite dangerou, especially with the card disadvantage( Fling/Stifle and FoW). At final 4 Gilded Drake seems to slow if you run no bounce MD.
BB
isn't the deck's draw engine standstill. and doesn't dreadstill play like standstill except it can win with a 12/12 beater. aka man lands ftw most of the time.
isn't the deck's draw engine standstill. and doesn't dreadstill play like standstill except it can win with a 12/12 beater. aka man lands ftw most of the time.
What does this have to do with VH? Yes dreadstill's draw engine is Standstill. Hence the -still.
i treally has nothing to do with Vial Horror it is actually a really neat deck i played it and i gave THRESH a ton of trouble , 42 LAND alot of trouble , and survial alot of trouble i just need to learn how to play it better
So you are saying that Trinket Mage is good and Dimir Infiltrator is bad?
It takes about 10 minutes per bad suggestion to kindly explain what the person could realize if they had played enough games. (And if that person isn't willing to do so, then I'd strongly recommend playing a deck that is much easier to design: Threshold.)
Each 10 minute post adds up, and nobody was willing to understand anything even after that anyway. That would be my initial thought on why Stephen left.
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So you are saying that Trinket Mage is good and Dimir Infiltrator is bad?
actually i was only running 2x trinket mages just to help the get the arty's out but i kept getting hurt buy them so i took them out it was like cute trick but bad idea and no i never said dimir infitrator was bad i never said that
but what i want to run is the one he built not one i built based off of his last deck list that is over 6 months old ish give or take
I playtested this deck for awhile and tried a lot of little tweaks to some of Stephen's old lists, but I eventually shelved it in favor of other decks because it generally curled up and died if I didn't find a Vial, Stylus/Scepter, and Drake/Horror quickly. However, I've decided to come back and give it another look with fresh eyes.
Dark Confidant beats and the like were generally not sufficient to keep pressure on my opponent while I searched for a way to win. Have there been arguments for/against a black discard disruption package rather than the Stifle/FoW disruption the deck has now?
Also (at least the versions I was running) topdecked poorly if the game came to a stalemate. I drew a lot of Brainstorms and Vials/Scepters/Stylii when I wanted a threat. I don't know if there's any way to fix this problem considering the relatively small number of negotiable slots in the deck.
well stephen and me both did prety well he took 9th i took 11th well 11th is good for since it is only my second big turny and i have only been playing for 10 months
I wasn't allowed to go with him at the last minute (mother issues). I don't play Hunted Horror, if thats what you're wondering. We each play the decks we made - go figure.
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I'm playing the BUr version with Brand and have alot of problem with combo( storm combo like TES and Fetchland Tendrils). I already play 5 discard spells MD( 2 Thoughtseize/3 Cabal Therapy). What can I play in the SB for these matchups?
BB
Cards.
Honestly, The biggest reason that VH is not on a public forum is that everyone is a idiot. VH advantage comes from the player. It is a out-playing deck to create a mental edge on the opponent. Since everyone wants to add 4 goyf, it is annoying as hell to tell them to tell them to read the posts before you. I am surprised that I have not killed myself trying to defend the deck.
EDIT: I just got of the phone with SJ this is our latest list:
Could you explain some of the card choices; For example, hatching plans, venser and pestermite and why you don't play brand. I can't find the old thread (realy i've looked).
EDIT: And why not the 4th hidden horror?
EDITEDIT: And why 5 pithing needles?
Sorry there should be 2 Trinket Mages in the side... I just copied our old SB that we used a few weeks go.... VH is really good at that you can adjust the side for your meta.
Brand is a red card. That is the main reason.
The Plans, Venser and Pestermite come to our playstyle.
You need 4 Hunted Horror. No question about it. This is your best and quickest win condition (other than including Phyrexian Dreadnought). Consider running Echoing Truth. This can handle problems on the board (and much earlier than Venser) such as Propagenda, Chalice of the Void, Pithing Needle, AND can remove the tokens you give your opponent with Hunted Horror.
I don't like Hatching Plans in here, it's entirely dependent on you having a Despotic Scepter in play (the Stylus won't trigger the draw 3). Also, I would definitely fit Trinket Mage in maindeck, as well as one Engineered Explosives and one Sensei's Divining Top (which will also help with your Confidants- revealing Venser or FoW on top of all the sac lands you're using is going to huuurt).
To be honest, I'd take Pestermite out. While it's cute that he can flash in and twiddle a stylus or give you a single combat trick by tapping their blocker, he's just too useless. And when you draw him in top-deck mode with a wrecked board on your side, all he can do is possibly stall you a turn. You have better options.
I suggest the following revisions:
-1 Gilded Drake (move this to sideboard, he's not nearly as good vs. control)
-3 Pestermite
-1 Hatching Plans
Also, I'd tone down the amount of sac-lands you've included; those with Confidant and FoW and no way of life gain is going to make it difficult to win versus a deck that can stall, or even versus sligh/straight burn.
Vile Horror
4 Gilded Drake
3 Hunted Horror
4 Dark Confidant
4 Sage of Epityr
3 Dimir Infiltrator
3 Pongify
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Stifle
4 Aether Vial
3 Despotic Scepter
2 Tel-Jilad Stylus
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Echoing Truth
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Riptide Lab
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Island
Sideboard
4 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Engineered Plague
3 Propaganda
2 Hymn to Tourach
This is the most recent list Isamaru posted before his departure. Hopefully, putting this thread back into Decks for Critique will create serious discussion about the list, as well as the possibility of developing the deck to make it a serious competitive deck in the current Legacy format.
Trinket Mage package, also allowing for top-counterbalance in the main, and 1 tormod's crypt main, helping the pre and post board ichorid matchups, also fetches scepter and stylus, also finds explosives versus gobbos, and needle when necessary. Seems very solid.
Offalsnout: A great solution to anything grave-based, especially ichorid. Evoke, remove all bridges, nail a dread return sounds pretty good.
Thoughts?
Anyway, Stephen and I are attending a few tournaments in the coming weeks, so he may be updating things online soon. We'll see how it goes.
Thank you to R&Doom at Ye Olde Sig and Avatar Shoppe for the banner!
Thank you Erasmus for the Avatar!
Clan A.R.D.
MtG Music Video - Simple Plan's Untitled
To 1 and 2: I meant get it winning big tournaments. I never meant have it take up a large chunk of the metagame.
The cards I listed were just ideas. Trinket Mage seems to fit the deck... and it helps find answers... and basically ensures you don't get double scepter/stylus, reducing dead draws. Other than that, they were just like... I wonder if it fits here? ideas.
Stephen seemed like he was officially done discussing the deck online... that's why I made this thread. If he comes back online, maybe YuanTi could revive the old thread in the DTB.
EDIT: I took out the matchups. If you could give post FS matchup numbers, that'd be great!
I think the list needs the 4th Horror. Horror is big enough to race any even semi-commonly played threat in the meta besides Dreadnought. Even just running it out turn 2 without protection you can race the 2 3/3s. Being able to end the game quickly is extremely important against Goblins. This deck should never win the long game against Goblins now that it has Wort (this is especially true if the Goblins player is running 2x Wort). Your only real hope would be to get a "drake-lock" and have the Stifles for every Wasteland they might have.
Riptide Lab is not strong enough to include. Basically all of the top tier decks are running non-basic hate, even some Threshold is running Blood Moon now. Paying 4 mana (and most likely a turn) for a bad Index is not good enough. 3-colored Threshold decks are running 4 basics and they have 6-8 fetches and 10-12 cantrip effects just to get around the non-basic hate, and none of their mana-producing lands are colorless. At least Stronghold has the ability to completely lock some decks out of the game, Lab just lets you chump block and Index.
4 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Vault of Whispers
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Hunted Horror
4 Gilded Drake
3 Trinket Mage
3 Brand
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
3 Aether Vial
1 Tel-Jilad Stylus
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Brand
1 Trickbind
1 Echoing Truth
1 Counterspell
1 Fact or Fiction
1 (favorite instant creature removal spell)
also it would seem that vile horror isn't as strong as dreadstill and hence the development on the deck has halted.
isn't the deck's draw engine standstill. and doesn't dreadstill play like standstill except it can win with a 12/12 beater. aka man lands ftw most of the time.
What does this have to do with VH? Yes dreadstill's draw engine is Standstill. Hence the -still.
It takes about 10 minutes per bad suggestion to kindly explain what the person could realize if they had played enough games. (And if that person isn't willing to do so, then I'd strongly recommend playing a deck that is much easier to design: Threshold.)
Each 10 minute post adds up, and nobody was willing to understand anything even after that anyway. That would be my initial thought on why Stephen left.
Thank you to R&Doom at Ye Olde Sig and Avatar Shoppe for the banner!
Thank you Erasmus for the Avatar!
Clan A.R.D.
MtG Music Video - Simple Plan's Untitled
actually i was only running 2x trinket mages just to help the get the arty's out but i kept getting hurt buy them so i took them out it was like cute trick but bad idea and no i never said dimir infitrator was bad i never said that
but what i want to run is the one he built not one i built based off of his last deck list that is over 6 months old ish give or take
and morgulord thanx for the info yo
Dark Confidant beats and the like were generally not sufficient to keep pressure on my opponent while I searched for a way to win. Have there been arguments for/against a black discard disruption package rather than the Stifle/FoW disruption the deck has now?
Also (at least the versions I was running) topdecked poorly if the game came to a stalemate. I drew a lot of Brainstorms and Vials/Scepters/Stylii when I wanted a threat. I don't know if there's any way to fix this problem considering the relatively small number of negotiable slots in the deck.
Thank you to R&Doom at Ye Olde Sig and Avatar Shoppe for the banner!
Thank you Erasmus for the Avatar!
Clan A.R.D.
MtG Music Video - Simple Plan's Untitled
Yes, we're both going.
Thank you to R&Doom at Ye Olde Sig and Avatar Shoppe for the banner!
Thank you Erasmus for the Avatar!
Clan A.R.D.
MtG Music Video - Simple Plan's Untitled
Thank you to R&Doom at Ye Olde Sig and Avatar Shoppe for the banner!
Thank you Erasmus for the Avatar!
Clan A.R.D.
MtG Music Video - Simple Plan's Untitled
Please Read old thread, kthxbye.
Please Read the old thread, kthxbye
This is not VH.
It is not halted. It just people like you...
Cards.
Honestly, The biggest reason that VH is not on a public forum is that everyone is a idiot. VH advantage comes from the player. It is a out-playing deck to create a mental edge on the opponent. Since everyone wants to add 4 goyf, it is annoying as hell to tell them to tell them to read the posts before you. I am surprised that I have not killed myself trying to defend the deck.
EDIT: I just got of the phone with SJ this is our latest list:
3 Hunted Horror
4 Dark Confidant
3 Pestermite
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Force of Will
1 Hatching Plans
4 Brainstorm
2 Thoughtseize
4 Stifle
4 Aether Vial
3 Despotic Scepter
2 Tel-Jilad Stylus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Riptide Lab
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Island
4 Pithing Needle
4 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
Sorry there should be 2 Trinket Mages in the side... I just copied our old SB that we used a few weeks go.... VH is really good at that you can adjust the side for your meta.
Brand is a red card. That is the main reason.
The Plans, Venser and Pestermite come to our playstyle.
The old thread is http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=47196
You need 4 Hunted Horror. No question about it. This is your best and quickest win condition (other than including Phyrexian Dreadnought). Consider running Echoing Truth. This can handle problems on the board (and much earlier than Venser) such as Propagenda, Chalice of the Void, Pithing Needle, AND can remove the tokens you give your opponent with Hunted Horror.
I don't like Hatching Plans in here, it's entirely dependent on you having a Despotic Scepter in play (the Stylus won't trigger the draw 3). Also, I would definitely fit Trinket Mage in maindeck, as well as one Engineered Explosives and one Sensei's Divining Top (which will also help with your Confidants- revealing Venser or FoW on top of all the sac lands you're using is going to huuurt).
To be honest, I'd take Pestermite out. While it's cute that he can flash in and twiddle a stylus or give you a single combat trick by tapping their blocker, he's just too useless. And when you draw him in top-deck mode with a wrecked board on your side, all he can do is possibly stall you a turn. You have better options.
I suggest the following revisions:
-1 Gilded Drake (move this to sideboard, he's not nearly as good vs. control)
-3 Pestermite
-1 Hatching Plans
+1 Hunted Horror
+2 Trinket Mage
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
Also, I'd tone down the amount of sac-lands you've included; those with Confidant and FoW and no way of life gain is going to make it difficult to win versus a deck that can stall, or even versus sligh/straight burn.