Pithing Needle...can anyone think of a card that better defines the term "unlimited potential"? I can't think of one.
What I want to get out of this thread is this: what needle-vulnerable cards do decks absolutely rely on? What should someone name with needle to maximize it's effectiveness? There are some obvious choices, like naming Goblins Charbelcher when playing against 2 land Belcher, or Survival of the Fittest vs Survival2K7. But did you know that BHWC Landstill relies entirely on Pernicious Deed to clear the board? Or that White Gro runs more Flooded Strands than any other land?
Here's a list of cards that if needled, will do heavy damage against the decks that rely on them.
Goblin Charbelcher for Belcher (Duh)
Survival of the Fittest for Survival (Duh)
Flooded Strand for White Thresh
Pernicious Deed for BHWC Landstill
Umezawa's Jitte if you're an aggro deck.
Cavern Harpy for Aluren
Auriok Salvagers vs Gamekeeper Salvager (Duh)
That's just a small list and I'm sure there's many other decks that rely on needle-vulnerable cards to execute their strategies. So if you know a thing or two about smart things to needle, drop a post here and I'll edit my post to include your suggestion. Needle's a very versatile card, and it would be good to know how to maximize it's effectiveness. I know that I'm not using the best wording to explain what I'm meaning, but it's along the lines of...what's particularly devastating to needle?
I wrote about this some in my Sun Tower primer. The problem with open-ended cards like needle is that their utility changes with your deck and situation. As an example I'll often name Viridian Zealot against Survival builds that don't feature Tin Street Hooligan if I already have a Chalice @ 3 down. If I'm executing my gameplan (say, I have Ensnaring Bridge and the Chalice @ 3 out), then Pithing Needle on Zealot is the right play. Needling Survival would be silly since Survival can't remove my Ensnaring Bridge or Chalice @ 3. Sure, they can get a bunch of dudes, but all that does is accelerate my decking them (if I need to be) and makes Smokestack take longer to wipe their board.
If your deck already runs land destruction and disruption elements (Port, Wasteland, Stifle, Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Smokestack, Braids, Sinkhole, etc), then it may often be right to name enemy fetches. I board in Pithing Needles against Iggy Pop and Solidarity due to their ability to severely manascrew my opponents in conjunction with other lock pieces (and sometimes all by themself).
Conversely, if your manabase is particularly screwed by Wasteland, naming Wasteland isn't such a bad idea. I find myself naming Port quite a bit against Goblins with Sun Tower in order to get to the midgame where I can use further needles on stuff like SGC, Vial, and Sharpshooter. Needle really depends on what you don't want to see, and as such, each list is going to be different for each deck.
Edit: Thanks Cloud_821. Yeah, the 2cc guy that sacs to naturalize stuff. Shaman is just a nyphomaniac elf that Chalice @ 3 already deals with.
Um...you're certainly able to Needle Viridian Shaman, but I utterly fail to see how that could possibly help you. Did you mean Viridian Zealot?
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emidln: Good points, for sure. Pithing Needle appears to be even more versatile than I had thought.
The case has been made that some Needle targets should be targeted based upon the circumstance. That leads me to another question. Are all needle targets dependent on the circumstances, or are there some universally effective needle targets? In other words, do you needle some cards whether you're playing Train Wreck, Goblins, or Gro, or do you needle some cards only when in circumstances x, y, and z?
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"You're going to fight that?!"
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Remember that with Lorwyn, they were going to break a fundamental rule. I think with the clues we got into FS and this little tidbit from TCG, it will be Planeswalkers. Also gatherer now references the planeswalker type. Why do it so early. If it isn't Planeswalkers, I will submit a video of me tearing up one of my moxes
it all depends on the deck first of all... if wasteland does not affect your deck in the least you never name wasteland.. as for universal cards; say vial, survival, welder, & other cards in which decks need them. I would always go for them early game.
as for random jank that you don't know what to name... I always just needle what I happen to have seen in the previous game. Needle can also be used situationally against a random lavamancer or fetch (these sit. plays sometimes become the most rewarding IMO).
I have to agree that needle is up there in 'best card ever' status, next to mage and some others.
Yeah, Needle, pre-board, is particularly bad against High Tide and Threshold.
Post-board, you might make a go of it vis-a-vis Tormod's Crypt--but it's still pretty bad, now that Grunt and Loaming Shaman are rightfully filling the slot that Crypt used to take.
A quick list:
Goblins - Definitely AEther Vial; then maybe Tinkerer if it's in their deck; Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Crypt (post-board) and Gempalm Incinerator (cycled) are also good.
IGGy Pop/Solidarity - Needle is awful in this match, you might hit a Delta or Strand, but really, not so good.
Survival - duh.
Psychatog and Landstill - If they're splashing green, name Deed. Next up, manlands, cycling lands, Shackles; depends on the build, game state, etc.
Rifter - Eternal Dragon; then guess with their cycling lands.
B/w Pikula/Deadguy - Not too many good choices, usually just go with Wasteland, failing that Cursed Scroll.
43 Land - Too much to choose from; just go with whatever's supposed to kill you, Factory, Monastery, Barbarian Ring, etc. or Wasteland if that w/ or w/o Exploration/LFTL will just lock you out.
Faerie Stompy - Usually Sword of Fire and Ice will do; then Jitte.
Golden Graham - Salvagers. Don't be the guy who names LED.
HanniFish - Usually Jitte or MoR.
Red Death - Wasteland.
The best things about Needle is that it's hyper-efficent, easily splashable and is exceptionally good in a random field. The bad thing is the damn cost of the things ($20 or so) and that they're purely reactive (or proactively reactive, if that makes sense) and just helps you "not lose"; as opposed to, say, Meddling Mage who's also a win condition, a chump blocker, etc.
Yeah, Needle, pre-board, is particularly bad against High Tide and Threshold.
IGGy Pop/Solidarity - Needle is awful in this match, you might hit a Delta or Strand, but really, not so good.
From extensive testing I call bull****. Needle is amazing hitting fetches when combined with any other disruption against decks that have half of their manabases invested in two fetchlands. Forcing them to find mana-producing lands with their optimization spells is ideal if you can put up any pressure or disruption to accompany the needles.
about vial:
I usually let goblins have Vial if have defenses set up against instant-speed hordes of dudes (Aether Flash, multiple bridges, etc). I find myself needling SGC a lot due to its ability to kill me from behind Ensnaring Bridge or through a Flash in response to the trigger if a few weird things happen.
From extensive testing I call bull****. Needle is amazing hitting fetches when combined with any other disruption against decks that have half of their manabases invested in two fetchlands. Forcing them to find mana-producing lands with their optimization spells is ideal if you can put up any pressure or disruption to accompany the needles.
Well, we should both state the context of our analyses. I should have been clear that I was talking about mid-range type decks w/o Wasteland and any other LD, like Thresh and GAT; you're coming at this from the Sun Tower perspective.
Anyway, yeah, all of these decisions are highly contextual. My post above is correct if you're a Thresh player.
about vial:
I usually let goblins have Vial if have defenses set up against instant-speed hordes of dudes (Aether Flash, multiple bridges, etc). I find myself needling SGC a lot due to its ability to kill me from behind Ensnaring Bridge or through a Flash in response to the trigger if a few weird things happen.
Ditto. But right-o; sometimes dropping Needle on SGC is the right play--but not usually. When playing Thresh, it's only the correct play when you're going to win with flyers and you have ground secure with Geese/Bears and Incinerator isn't going to be fatal to an Enforcer.
Oh boy. From the sounds of it, one could write pages on proper uses of Pithing Needle in an aggro deck alone, and not even touch upon how control or aggro/control uses it. And that's not even breaking it down into hannifish, gro, deadguy, etc.
Someone should write up a Pithing Needle primer, and tell people what to name and taking in factors like what deck you're playing, what deck they're playing, and what's on the board. Proper role assignment FTW.
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"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana." -Groucho Marx
"You're going to fight that?!"
"No...I'm going to kill that."
A GAME OF THRONES ON HBO!!!! AAAAAH~!!!!
The problem with an article like that is you could really only do it from the perspective of one deck, and even then what you would name with the needle changes so much with every situation your in. The article would just be ridiculously long. There are a lot of obvious things to name with needle against certain decks, like survival when playing against a survival deck, but when you add a second needle to the equation or a situation where you have to decide against the parallax wave your opponent hasn't played yet that could wreck you or the mother of runes thats on the board but isn't out of hand yet things get a lot more complex.
What I want to get out of this thread is this: what needle-vulnerable cards do decks absolutely rely on? What should someone name with needle to maximize it's effectiveness? There are some obvious choices, like naming Goblins Charbelcher when playing against 2 land Belcher, or Survival of the Fittest vs Survival2K7. But did you know that BHWC Landstill relies entirely on Pernicious Deed to clear the board? Or that White Gro runs more Flooded Strands than any other land?
Here's a list of cards that if needled, will do heavy damage against the decks that rely on them.
Goblin Charbelcher for Belcher (Duh)
Survival of the Fittest for Survival (Duh)
Flooded Strand for White Thresh
Pernicious Deed for BHWC Landstill
Umezawa's Jitte if you're an aggro deck.
Cavern Harpy for Aluren
Auriok Salvagers vs Gamekeeper Salvager (Duh)
That's just a small list and I'm sure there's many other decks that rely on needle-vulnerable cards to execute their strategies. So if you know a thing or two about smart things to needle, drop a post here and I'll edit my post to include your suggestion. Needle's a very versatile card, and it would be good to know how to maximize it's effectiveness. I know that I'm not using the best wording to explain what I'm meaning, but it's along the lines of...what's particularly devastating to needle?
"You're going to fight that?!"
"No...I'm going to kill that."
A GAME OF THRONES ON HBO!!!! AAAAAH~!!!!
I can. Meddling Mage
I am not really sure what your question is, since you have a good list already.
In theory, Pithing Needle names cards that creates an advantage for your opponent.
"You're going to fight that?!"
"No...I'm going to kill that."
A GAME OF THRONES ON HBO!!!! AAAAAH~!!!!
If your deck already runs land destruction and disruption elements (Port, Wasteland, Stifle, Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Smokestack, Braids, Sinkhole, etc), then it may often be right to name enemy fetches. I board in Pithing Needles against Iggy Pop and Solidarity due to their ability to severely manascrew my opponents in conjunction with other lock pieces (and sometimes all by themself).
Conversely, if your manabase is particularly screwed by Wasteland, naming Wasteland isn't such a bad idea. I find myself naming Port quite a bit against Goblins with Sun Tower in order to get to the midgame where I can use further needles on stuff like SGC, Vial, and Sharpshooter. Needle really depends on what you don't want to see, and as such, each list is going to be different for each deck.
Edit: Thanks Cloud_821. Yeah, the 2cc guy that sacs to naturalize stuff. Shaman is just a nyphomaniac elf that Chalice @ 3 already deals with.
Hey, you. Yes, you reading this sig. Get off your computer, go find a copy of Skies of Arcadia: Legends and play it. Trust me, you won't be disappointed.
The case has been made that some Needle targets should be targeted based upon the circumstance. That leads me to another question. Are all needle targets dependent on the circumstances, or are there some universally effective needle targets? In other words, do you needle some cards whether you're playing Train Wreck, Goblins, or Gro, or do you needle some cards only when in circumstances x, y, and z?
"You're going to fight that?!"
"No...I'm going to kill that."
A GAME OF THRONES ON HBO!!!! AAAAAH~!!!!
What about Solidarity? It seems pretty bad to just Needle Delta.
H/W list!
What'll you'll see at Table One:
RG Gruul
UR Dragonstorm
WUR Angelfire
as for random jank that you don't know what to name... I always just needle what I happen to have seen in the previous game. Needle can also be used situationally against a random lavamancer or fetch (these sit. plays sometimes become the most rewarding IMO).
I have to agree that needle is up there in 'best card ever' status, next to mage and some others.
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Post-board, you might make a go of it vis-a-vis Tormod's Crypt--but it's still pretty bad, now that Grunt and Loaming Shaman are rightfully filling the slot that Crypt used to take.
A quick list:
Goblins - Definitely AEther Vial; then maybe Tinkerer if it's in their deck; Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Crypt (post-board) and Gempalm Incinerator (cycled) are also good.
IGGy Pop/Solidarity - Needle is awful in this match, you might hit a Delta or Strand, but really, not so good.
Survival - duh.
Psychatog and Landstill - If they're splashing green, name Deed. Next up, manlands, cycling lands, Shackles; depends on the build, game state, etc.
Rifter - Eternal Dragon; then guess with their cycling lands.
B/w Pikula/Deadguy - Not too many good choices, usually just go with Wasteland, failing that Cursed Scroll.
43 Land - Too much to choose from; just go with whatever's supposed to kill you, Factory, Monastery, Barbarian Ring, etc. or Wasteland if that w/ or w/o Exploration/LFTL will just lock you out.
Faerie Stompy - Usually Sword of Fire and Ice will do; then Jitte.
Golden Graham - Salvagers. Don't be the guy who names LED.
HanniFish - Usually Jitte or MoR.
Red Death - Wasteland.
The best things about Needle is that it's hyper-efficent, easily splashable and is exceptionally good in a random field. The bad thing is the damn cost of the things ($20 or so) and that they're purely reactive (or proactively reactive, if that makes sense) and just helps you "not lose"; as opposed to, say, Meddling Mage who's also a win condition, a chump blocker, etc.
From extensive testing I call bull****. Needle is amazing hitting fetches when combined with any other disruption against decks that have half of their manabases invested in two fetchlands. Forcing them to find mana-producing lands with their optimization spells is ideal if you can put up any pressure or disruption to accompany the needles.
about vial:
I usually let goblins have Vial if have defenses set up against instant-speed hordes of dudes (Aether Flash, multiple bridges, etc). I find myself needling SGC a lot due to its ability to kill me from behind Ensnaring Bridge or through a Flash in response to the trigger if a few weird things happen.
Well, we should both state the context of our analyses. I should have been clear that I was talking about mid-range type decks w/o Wasteland and any other LD, like Thresh and GAT; you're coming at this from the Sun Tower perspective.
Anyway, yeah, all of these decisions are highly contextual. My post above is correct if you're a Thresh player.
Ditto. But right-o; sometimes dropping Needle on SGC is the right play--but not usually. When playing Thresh, it's only the correct play when you're going to win with flyers and you have ground secure with Geese/Bears and Incinerator isn't going to be fatal to an Enforcer.
Someone should write up a Pithing Needle primer, and tell people what to name and taking in factors like what deck you're playing, what deck they're playing, and what's on the board. Proper role assignment FTW.
"You're going to fight that?!"
"No...I'm going to kill that."
A GAME OF THRONES ON HBO!!!! AAAAAH~!!!!