All while making the format fluctuate a bit more, and thus making it less stagnant, the main problem people seem to have with Legacy. Playing a format that hasn't changed in three years starts getting after a while. But rotating blocks would itself defeat the whole purpose of Legay. Here's the best alternative IMO.
Wizards has done many You Make the Card votes using their website.
Using a similar technique, they can easily do a You Make the Banned List Challenge for Legacy each time the B&R changes date comes around. It would make a lot of sense to begin the voting process with the same time a new set gets released. That's when the site gets the most traffic, and people get to see the newer cards that may interact with changes before making thier decision.
A few rules...
To be able to vote, you have to log in with your username to the Wizards website, and it's ip checked too. So to cast multiple votes, you would need multiple emails, multiple accounts and multiple computers. People may bother to cast an extra vote or two if they really care, but no more.
Then before you can vote, you have to answer five questions (randomly chosen for each person from a decent sized question bank) that would be obvious to anyone that actually plays the format.
Examples of such questions would be...
Which of the following are considered two of the best decks in the format?
A. Life and Tooth & Nail
B. Threshold and Goblins
C. Elves and Nether Void
Which of the following isn’t an actual decently established deck in legacy?
If you answer four of the five questions correctly, you advance to the voting page.
There you see a list of the less powerful cards currently banned in the format, ie. cards that Wizards frequently get emails about asking them to unban it, each card with a blurb following it explaining what's so broken about the card. Not every banned card needs to be listed. There is absolutely no reason to put obviously broken cards like Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall and Contract from Beyond up for vote.
And you see a list of a bunch of cards that are typically thrown around as being too powerful and/or banworthy in the format, ie. the cards that Wizards get emails about and such. Cards like Goblin Ringleader etc.
The point isn't that players will always make the best choices. It's that it allows the format to fluctuate a lot more, and in turn generate more diversity and interest.
And if I didn't make it clear, I mean for this process to be done everytime before a banned & restricted announcement.
This means that every three months, the format will fluctuate, but at the same time, players don't have to be concerned about investing in Legacy cards and losing their investment because odds are, even if by some crazy chance FoW gets banned for three months, (which I promise you it won't, most legacy players know the importance of the card) it will be back in a few months.
The DCI would be required to abide by the votes outcome but gets a few blackballs every year if and only if players do something utterly ridiculous, like unban Black Lotus, which once again isn't going to happen, so I don't think the blackballs would ever be used. Also, if results come out in favor of banning two cards to weaken the same deck, such as both Lackey and Ringleader being banned, they have to ban the card that got a higher percentage of the vote.
If some really wants to, they are free to write an article about this, the only way to ensure Wizards see the idea. I would if I had a little more time or was atleast a better writer.
It's not just hard for us.
Think it's hard for us to figure out which cards are unbannable and which aren't? It's not just hard for us. It's hard for the dci too.
They can't know if something like Entomb or Replenish would honestly break the format, or if FoW will handily keep them in check.
And they can't risk unbanning them, because it would look bad if they unban a card and then had to ban it again in three months.
Same thing with stuff like Goblin Recruiter. They know it's extremely powerful, but aren't sure how the format or players would react if they banned it. It would piss a lot of people off, and would piss off just as many if they print more powerful cards and people felt like they could unban it later.
Thus, they are conservative, far too conservative with bannings.
This lets the format explore more options, all while putting the blame for those occasional bad decisions squarely on the players themselves.
A card getting banned for three months isn't the end of the world.
So what if legacy players make the "wrong choice" for a couple of months. It's still their format, they are the ones that play it. They'll probably still be happy atleast to have been able to try that card out for three months. It's not like any changes will last more than three months.
It's far better to have a dynamic format where people occasionally make the wrong choice, than a format where the DCI is so terrified that they might make the wrong decision and everyone will blame them that they refuse to change anything for years on end.
And honestly, I'm fairly sure that the average Legacy player understands the legacy format as well as an arbitrary organization who by their own admission neither test nor play the format that they regulate.
Hmmm. An interesting idea, I must say. While I disagree with your sentiment that Legacy gets stale easily (though that may hold true for competitive), I do agree it could use something to make it stand out more and make more players invest in it.
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
How about instead, wotc actually puts on 3+ legacy tournies a year ( even 2 would be nice)
Why would they? There's very little money for Wizards in Legacy and Vintage, which is why they aren't heavily supported. There's nothing preventing tournament organizers from sanctioning Legacy tournaments, but Wizards themselves are going to focus on the formats that make them money.
By pre-screening applicants through questions about current Legacy, you ensure that the only people who will bother reading and reflecting on these B&R issues will be people who actually already attend Legacy events. So, you aren't really increasing accessibility and interest in Legacy.
If you want to increase interest in Legacy, then you have to make people want to bother picking up old cards and using them competitively. City Champs is currently doing that by making a proportion of their tournament circuit Legacy events.
From what I have seen in my own community, Legacy enjoys a large underground popularity already, it's just that there are few places to play in our area, and even fewer who host sanctioned Legacy tournaments. The City Champs issue is partially helping. SCG is also helping with Duel for Duals and other such Legacy grandstanding.
Props to Outpost 2000 in Brooklyn Park MN for holding sanctioned Legacy tournaments weekly since the days when it was still recorded as 1.5 in your Vintage rating.
@ people who say there's very little money in Legacy for Wizards right now: Very short-sighted thinking. Legacy players buy new packs too, to get cards like Damnation and Flagstones that fit well into a lot of older decks. If competitive play-worthiness of your cards ends abruptly at six years, then the 15% or so of players who maintain their collections past six years will stop buying cards, and go find something else to do. Would you ignore a minor logistic indulgence that could boost sales by up to 15% every year?
How about instead, wotc actually puts on 3+ legacy tournies a year ( even 2 would be nice) and actually treats it like a real format not t1's little brother.
Number of Legacy GPs this year: 1
Number of Vintage GPs ever: 0
Who is who's little brother here?
WotC only has one decently high-profile tournament for Vintage every year, and that's the World Championships. They do absolutely nothing to support it beyond that.
At least Legacy gets thrown a bone once in a while.
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I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
This idea sucks more than a vintage Electrolux. I mean no insult to the poster, but there are many reasons why this wouldn't happen unless R&D got ran over by a bus, and then we'd have Mana Drain again and all would be dandy.
I have reiterated this in several places, but one of the reasons Legacy doesn't get the support it deserves is BECAUSE Wizards wants people to buy more new product. The Time Spiral block, in particular, brings us reprints of what we already have, colorshifted cards that we already have, and god knows what in Future Sight. Most players who play the format already HAVE their decks together, and so do not need to purchase more product in order to finish off their latest deck. All that money goes to the secondary market, which Wizards gets no part of.
In the case of Limited and Standard, one must continually purchase new sets (or booster packs, in the form of draft/sealed fees) in order to continue playing. More money= happier businessmen.
The point is, I believe that more players will gravitate towards Legacy in the future, as sets rotate out of Extended. People dislike having to give up their favorite decks, so they will play them in this way.
I have had some success in drumming up support for Legacy tournaments in my area, though attendance is very small (and at times I must loan out decks for players to use).
Back on topic, though, I'd be extremely upset if a bunch of people who didn't know Time Walk from Walk the Aeons rearranged our banned list. (Thought in theory, it COULD get Reset banned....hmmm....:D )
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
The best way for Wizards to make Legacy more popular would be to change the banned list to allow for more innovation. In that sense, I agree with you. But your idea will never really work. They couldn't just put it up to popular vote. the logistics just make it impractical.
What they could certainly do to shake up the format would be to be a bit more lenient with the banned list as it is currently, allow some older power-cards to take effect.
But you know what? Wizards doesn't really care that much about Eternal formats. Why? Because they aren't really making much money off of them. When it comes down to it, they're a business. The second-hand market is the most effective way of getting cards for Legacy and Vintage (since almost all the legal sets are out of print).
When you follow this line of thinking, you realize that the only way for them to really make money on the format and therefore care enough to make it interesting would be for them to release those special-edition old cards in predefined boosters (like a booster of one of each original dual land), the kind of thing that was proposed a little while back and that I still support. If they did that, those damn things would sell like hotcakes; casual gamers as well as Vintage and Legacy newbies would want four of each! Of course, then the secondary market values dive, but that's not really a problem (how can you complain when your format is getting such a large increase in support? Not to mention the fact that the other good Legacy cards you have for trade skyrocket since now all these people want them).
That's probably not going to happen, though.
So you'll have to be satisfied with the occasional GP, and realize that you may never get anything changed.
By the way, even though a lot of people think Goblin Lackey's effect on the format has been healthy, I still think there would be positive effects if he and Reset were banned (I still can't stand Solidarity).
Edit- wow, I'm pretty mad AoK sarnath'd me basically idea for idea.
Blergh, we hatesss it precioussss yesss we do.....
And the format being stagnant? hardly so. It is in constant shift. What I have seen from most recent stuff, different decks taek the top at different moments, these powershifts make for some niche decks to but in for a moment. The proven decks will always be there, but some are more played then others at different times. I think that saying its stagnant because of the banned list only proves of a lack of insight in the workings of what to beat at what time.
Edit: ME WANT BOOSTERS WITH DUALS!!! I would gladly pay about 40 bucks for a booster of 4 random inserted duals.... dont care if they were even white boarded, different art or new borders. I jsut want them to be accessible. I have the monies but am reluctant to buy online.
It isn't what players want that's best for the game. We've had the "What should be unbanned" argument a zillion times, and it usually turns into a flamefest because hardly two people can agree. There will always be a few people that will insist that certain cards aren't broken and would not make the format unhealthy at all.
Then Tolarian Academy gets unbanned, and no one ever sacs a Lotus Petal for mana again...at least not early game.
Of course, that was a somewhat humorous twist on what could happen. There are cards in the format that are currently legal that some of us don't like- Fuerdrache and I seem to have the same dislike for Golbin Lackey and Reset. That doesn't mean that our opinions are more inportant than any other players'- I myself would be curious to see what would happen if those two cards were banned. I bet a few new decks would crop up, maybe some even more annoying than the two that Lackey and Reset are associated with.
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
I think banning lackey is not the solution. I'd like to see wasteland and aether vial banned rather than lackey and/or reset.
Banning lackey and reset will kill goblins and solidarity.
Banning vial goblins will become more vulnerable to mana denial and countermagic. Banning wasteland will make multicolor decks more stable.
I think they should handle out promos of cards that are staple in legacy, instead of promos that are only useful in standard/ext. Im not saying that all would be for standard, or to ext, but the promos that are good for legacy (Some judge promos....) Are just nigh impossible to get on areas with not much players.
To make legacy more intresting, WotC should make legacy playable on area with less than 100 players, which just isn't possible now, as there isn't enough good legacy cards in whole area to build good decks for 16 man tournament. Not to mention, legacy is very hard to acces for new players ATM, as you need lots of money rares, but WotC doesn't want to print anything good like them because A: They would break standard and B: That would break market value of them. Oh and C: WotC hates legacy.
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The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
To make legacy more intresting, WotC should make legacy playable on area with less than 100 players, which just isn't possible now, as there isn't enough good legacy cards in whole area to build good decks for 16 man tournament. Not to mention, legacy is very hard to acces for new players ATM, as you need lots of money rares, but WotC doesn't want to print anything good like them because A: They would break standard and B: That would break market value of them. Oh and C: WotC hates legacy.
Ok, a goblin deck that could win a GP or PT cost around $250 with the only big breakers being Wasteland at $8(36), Lackey at $6(24), Fetches at $10(60-80), Piledriver at $10(40) and the rest being around anouther $70. so in total that is $250. A standard deck from strach is $60-80 for duals, $30-$40 for pain lands, another $120-$150 for 8-16 case rares the deck needs and lets say $40 for the rest. Thats around $250- $310. Leacgy doesn't brake the bank.
Secound market value for most of the cards in legacy outside of the duals and fetchs is secound level. Cheap stuff. Legacy when it comes down to it with the total vaule of the cards it is the cheapest format. So don't go and say it will brake the bank. Cuase it never will.
And Legacy has more then enought decks and cards to play a 100 man tourny with +16 decks. It just requires a person like myself and Issy to show up with Vial Horror and beat all the Goblin ^$*@^ and guess what, most of legacy is people like me and Issy who think outside the box and like to play a different style that is not High Tide, Threshold and Goblins al the time.
My first real post in over 5 mouths.
I'm so happy right now.
Ok, a goblin deck that could win a GP or PT cost around $250 with the only big breakers being Wasteland at $8(36), Lackey at $6(24), Fetches at $10(60-80), Piledriver at $10(40) and the rest being around anouther $70. so in total that is $250.
.
and that's exactly why there are so many goblin decks running about. it's cheap AND fun to play.
the problem is that people are lazy to think of new decks to play. and they are lazy because it doesn't get enough support.
There are 3-4 players in our area with competitive Legacy decks. the idea we're nourishing is to organize some events by ourselves, and let other people participate by lending them our decks we won't play. they'll be interested because they know they will be given a competitive deck. one problem ,though... everyone wants goblins.... :/
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Original quote byTacosnape "All ideas that give me knowledge without any effort involved on my part are good ideas. Chop chop, my dear fellow."
DCI L2 Judge GP:Madrid 2010 45th GP:Amsterdam 2011 74th GP:London 2013 67th Bazaar of Moxen 2013 32nd
my opinion on making legacy a better format doesn't rely on banned lists. i mean, personally i don't understand why cards as powerful as lackey and reset are still around, while a card that is really good, but nowhere near as broken as lackey, like gush is banned. that doesn't make sense to me.
i think that legacy just needs to be made into a more popular format. honestly, i don't like the idea that FNM is strictly type 2. i understand that most of the players that are playing FNM are only playing FNM and aren't really playing competitively. odds are they probably only have the cards that are t2 legal. but, imo, FNM gets old because it's always the same format which means you always see the same decks.
and i agree w/ the statement above that some of the FNM promos should be legacy staples. probably not lackey or something, but maybe a shiny dark ritual or lightning bolt. that would be pretty cool.
i don't know... i just think that if the legacy format were played locally on a weekly or even monthly basis it would gain more popularity. and even then it doesn't necessarily have to be played at FNM. heck, leave FNM alone and encourage local shops to run saturday or sunday legacy tournaments. in my area it's pretty much constantly a type 2 metagame. for example the closest and soonest legacy tournament i'm going to be playing in is about 70 miles or so away and doesn't occur for a little over a month from now. imo, that's ridiculous. the distance i can understand, because not everyone is blessed w/ living in an area that has a "local" shop. but only playing legacy every few months does nothing to help it's popularity.
I like legacy too. But WotC always favored Standard over Extended, Vintage and Legacy. They win lots of money with each rotation.
People should open their eyes and play legacy. It's more cheap and it's more fun.
Respect to banning lackey, i think that may be a solution but it's not the best solution. I'd like to see banned aether vial rather and wasteland rather than lackey.
These are my reasons: If vial were banned, goblins would be playable but more vulnerable to countermagic, mana denial and overcosting (sphere of resistance, chill).
If wasteland were banned, multicolor decks would become stronger, since their manabase would be more stable, and there's no need to run basic lands. Also decks that run manlands would be benefited.
i think that wasteland is one of those cards that's powerful, but i don't see that it could be banned. it gives decks that wouldn't normally have any sort of board control and way to do so. to me it's like gush (which is banned). it's a great card by itself and can be manipulated w/ other cards to be almost broken. the key word there being almost. it's just an excellent card, that imo, adds to the fun of the game.
Well, i'd like to see gush unbanned rather than vial and/or wasteland. The card always I hated is aether vial. There's a reason to ban it in extended. It gives goblins more stability against mana denial, overcosting and countermagic. Decks would have more answers against goblins if vial were banned.
Wasteland isn't too broken, and i doubt if it should be banned, but in extended multicoloured decks are more viable since there's no wasteland.
I think the real problem with Legacy is people settling for autolosses with their decks. There should be no way that a deck should ever have to forfeit a match because the way it's built. If the deck is made to go 50/50 with the tier 1 and 2 then it is good enough to make it. Another problem is the fact that the new players want to play Burn and 9LS (we were all their at one point in time) I think we would be better off as a community if every legacy player had their own different pet deck. Think about how much fun the game would be. There wouldn't be the 10 Goblin players in a 20 person tournament anymore and everyone would have a fair chance. On the final note, I think that if people sacrificed a little to have more fun with the game and NOT win as many games as you could have if you play Goblins, but instead played with a fun random deck (fluctuator comes to mind :P) then the meta would sooo much better and we wouldn't have threads discussing this topic.
The main problem with legacy is this right here. Everyone *****en about what is wrong and not looking for what is right. Forget about banning lackey, Vial, Wasteland Ect and unbanning Gush, Durid and replenish. Just live with it and move on.
Guys, if you want more Legacy tournaments, do what I've been doing.
Round up support from other players and bug your local store owner. Even if it's not for *major* prizes, even if it's not for any more than 8 players, it's still a tournament, we are still able to play the format we enjoy so much, and the players that AREN'T playing will show an interest in some of the "cool old cards" we are using in these tournaments.
If your local store owner isn't as cooperative, he WILL be more cooperative if you become a TO yourself and offer to run the tournaments. No matter what, if a tournament is going on in a store, the owner will make some sort of a profit, even if it's only on the chips, sodas, and other such things he will be selling to the players. If he has a stock of staple cards, then so much the better- people are ALWAYS needing a one-of right before a tournament.
Also, if most people at your local store don't play, bring a few extra decks. Loan then to players that you trust, and make sure that they are strightforward and easy to learn...giving a new Legacy player Solidarity on his first go is probably a bad idea, unless he or she is used to playing combo decks like it. Most of us have extra decks, and in the end it furthers the goals we are trying to put out.:D
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
Guys, if you want more Legacy tournaments, do what I've been doing.
Round up support from other players and bug your local store owner.
what if you're like me and my friends, and your local store owner is a total... well, you get the picture. we hardly ever even go to FNM because of him and because there's just not any good players. technically i don't even have a 'local' store owner, considering that the closest place to play FNM, let alone legacy, is about 45-50 miles away.
we don't like to go all the way up there to play FNM, number 1, because it's located in a mall so the tourney must be done by 9pm. number 2, FNM is always type 2 so that's not really all that cool. every now and then type 2 is cool, but not every week. and even then, he has tourney's on saturday's but they're always type 2 and he sucks, so that's that.
Wizards has done many You Make the Card votes using their website.
Using a similar technique, they can easily do a You Make the Banned List Challenge for Legacy each time the B&R changes date comes around. It would make a lot of sense to begin the voting process with the same time a new set gets released. That's when the site gets the most traffic, and people get to see the newer cards that may interact with changes before making thier decision.
A few rules...
To be able to vote, you have to log in with your username to the Wizards website, and it's ip checked too. So to cast multiple votes, you would need multiple emails, multiple accounts and multiple computers. People may bother to cast an extra vote or two if they really care, but no more.
Then before you can vote, you have to answer five questions (randomly chosen for each person from a decent sized question bank) that would be obvious to anyone that actually plays the format.
Examples of such questions would be...
Which of the following are considered two of the best decks in the format?
A. Life and Tooth & Nail
B. Threshold and Goblins
C. Elves and Nether Void
Which of the following isn’t an actual decently established deck in legacy?
If you answer four of the five questions correctly, you advance to the voting page.
There you see a list of the less powerful cards currently banned in the format, ie. cards that Wizards frequently get emails about asking them to unban it, each card with a blurb following it explaining what's so broken about the card. Not every banned card needs to be listed. There is absolutely no reason to put obviously broken cards like Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall and Contract from Beyond up for vote.
And you see a list of a bunch of cards that are typically thrown around as being too powerful and/or banworthy in the format, ie. the cards that Wizards get emails about and such. Cards like Goblin Ringleader etc.
The point isn't that players will always make the best choices. It's that it allows the format to fluctuate a lot more, and in turn generate more diversity and interest.
And if I didn't make it clear, I mean for this process to be done everytime before a banned & restricted announcement.
This means that every three months, the format will fluctuate, but at the same time, players don't have to be concerned about investing in Legacy cards and losing their investment because odds are, even if by some crazy chance FoW gets banned for three months, (which I promise you it won't, most legacy players know the importance of the card) it will be back in a few months.
The DCI would be required to abide by the votes outcome but gets a few blackballs every year if and only if players do something utterly ridiculous, like unban Black Lotus, which once again isn't going to happen, so I don't think the blackballs would ever be used. Also, if results come out in favor of banning two cards to weaken the same deck, such as both Lackey and Ringleader being banned, they have to ban the card that got a higher percentage of the vote.
If some really wants to, they are free to write an article about this, the only way to ensure Wizards see the idea. I would if I had a little more time or was atleast a better writer.
It's not just hard for us.
Think it's hard for us to figure out which cards are unbannable and which aren't? It's not just hard for us. It's hard for the dci too.
They can't know if something like Entomb or Replenish would honestly break the format, or if FoW will handily keep them in check.
And they can't risk unbanning them, because it would look bad if they unban a card and then had to ban it again in three months.
Same thing with stuff like Goblin Recruiter. They know it's extremely powerful, but aren't sure how the format or players would react if they banned it. It would piss a lot of people off, and would piss off just as many if they print more powerful cards and people felt like they could unban it later.
Thus, they are conservative, far too conservative with bannings.
This lets the format explore more options, all while putting the blame for those occasional bad decisions squarely on the players themselves.
A card getting banned for three months isn't the end of the world.
So what if legacy players make the "wrong choice" for a couple of months. It's still their format, they are the ones that play it. They'll probably still be happy atleast to have been able to try that card out for three months. It's not like any changes will last more than three months.
It's far better to have a dynamic format where people occasionally make the wrong choice, than a format where the DCI is so terrified that they might make the wrong decision and everyone will blame them that they refuse to change anything for years on end.
And honestly, I'm fairly sure that the average Legacy player understands the legacy format as well as an arbitrary organization who by their own admission neither test nor play the format that they regulate.
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
Why would they? There's very little money for Wizards in Legacy and Vintage, which is why they aren't heavily supported. There's nothing preventing tournament organizers from sanctioning Legacy tournaments, but Wizards themselves are going to focus on the formats that make them money.
Isn't it that exactly what it is?
Spam infraction. You know better.
If you want to increase interest in Legacy, then you have to make people want to bother picking up old cards and using them competitively. City Champs is currently doing that by making a proportion of their tournament circuit Legacy events.
From what I have seen in my own community, Legacy enjoys a large underground popularity already, it's just that there are few places to play in our area, and even fewer who host sanctioned Legacy tournaments. The City Champs issue is partially helping. SCG is also helping with Duel for Duals and other such Legacy grandstanding.
Props to Outpost 2000 in Brooklyn Park MN for holding sanctioned Legacy tournaments weekly since the days when it was still recorded as 1.5 in your Vintage rating.
@ people who say there's very little money in Legacy for Wizards right now: Very short-sighted thinking. Legacy players buy new packs too, to get cards like Damnation and Flagstones that fit well into a lot of older decks. If competitive play-worthiness of your cards ends abruptly at six years, then the 15% or so of players who maintain their collections past six years will stop buying cards, and go find something else to do. Would you ignore a minor logistic indulgence that could boost sales by up to 15% every year?
Number of Legacy GPs this year: 1
Number of Vintage GPs ever: 0
Who is who's little brother here?
WotC only has one decently high-profile tournament for Vintage every year, and that's the World Championships. They do absolutely nothing to support it beyond that.
At least Legacy gets thrown a bone once in a while.
2. Even if you cross post it everywhere, it doesn't make you less wrong.
I have reiterated this in several places, but one of the reasons Legacy doesn't get the support it deserves is BECAUSE Wizards wants people to buy more new product. The Time Spiral block, in particular, brings us reprints of what we already have, colorshifted cards that we already have, and god knows what in Future Sight. Most players who play the format already HAVE their decks together, and so do not need to purchase more product in order to finish off their latest deck. All that money goes to the secondary market, which Wizards gets no part of.
In the case of Limited and Standard, one must continually purchase new sets (or booster packs, in the form of draft/sealed fees) in order to continue playing. More money= happier businessmen.
The point is, I believe that more players will gravitate towards Legacy in the future, as sets rotate out of Extended. People dislike having to give up their favorite decks, so they will play them in this way.
I have had some success in drumming up support for Legacy tournaments in my area, though attendance is very small (and at times I must loan out decks for players to use).
Back on topic, though, I'd be extremely upset if a bunch of people who didn't know Time Walk from Walk the Aeons rearranged our banned list. (Thought in theory, it COULD get Reset banned....hmmm....:D )
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Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
What they could certainly do to shake up the format would be to be a bit more lenient with the banned list as it is currently, allow some older power-cards to take effect.
But you know what? Wizards doesn't really care that much about Eternal formats. Why? Because they aren't really making much money off of them. When it comes down to it, they're a business. The second-hand market is the most effective way of getting cards for Legacy and Vintage (since almost all the legal sets are out of print).
When you follow this line of thinking, you realize that the only way for them to really make money on the format and therefore care enough to make it interesting would be for them to release those special-edition old cards in predefined boosters (like a booster of one of each original dual land), the kind of thing that was proposed a little while back and that I still support. If they did that, those damn things would sell like hotcakes; casual gamers as well as Vintage and Legacy newbies would want four of each! Of course, then the secondary market values dive, but that's not really a problem (how can you complain when your format is getting such a large increase in support? Not to mention the fact that the other good Legacy cards you have for trade skyrocket since now all these people want them).
That's probably not going to happen, though.
So you'll have to be satisfied with the occasional GP, and realize that you may never get anything changed.
By the way, even though a lot of people think Goblin Lackey's effect on the format has been healthy, I still think there would be positive effects if he and Reset were banned (I still can't stand Solidarity).
Edit- wow, I'm pretty mad AoK sarnath'd me basically idea for idea.
And the format being stagnant? hardly so. It is in constant shift. What I have seen from most recent stuff, different decks taek the top at different moments, these powershifts make for some niche decks to but in for a moment. The proven decks will always be there, but some are more played then others at different times. I think that saying its stagnant because of the banned list only proves of a lack of insight in the workings of what to beat at what time.
Edit: ME WANT BOOSTERS WITH DUALS!!! I would gladly pay about 40 bucks for a booster of 4 random inserted duals.... dont care if they were even white boarded, different art or new borders. I jsut want them to be accessible. I have the monies but am reluctant to buy online.
Then Tolarian Academy gets unbanned, and no one ever sacs a Lotus Petal for mana again...at least not early game.
Of course, that was a somewhat humorous twist on what could happen. There are cards in the format that are currently legal that some of us don't like- Fuerdrache and I seem to have the same dislike for Golbin Lackey and Reset. That doesn't mean that our opinions are more inportant than any other players'- I myself would be curious to see what would happen if those two cards were banned. I bet a few new decks would crop up, maybe some even more annoying than the two that Lackey and Reset are associated with.
"I am in the arcane, and the arcane is in me."
Official Matron Mother of Clan Planar Chaos
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Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
Banning lackey and reset will kill goblins and solidarity.
Banning vial goblins will become more vulnerable to mana denial and countermagic. Banning wasteland will make multicolor decks more stable.
That is I think. Other people think different.
To make legacy more intresting, WotC should make legacy playable on area with less than 100 players, which just isn't possible now, as there isn't enough good legacy cards in whole area to build good decks for 16 man tournament. Not to mention, legacy is very hard to acces for new players ATM, as you need lots of money rares, but WotC doesn't want to print anything good like them because A: They would break standard and B: That would break market value of them. Oh and C: WotC hates legacy.
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
Ok, a goblin deck that could win a GP or PT cost around $250 with the only big breakers being Wasteland at $8(36), Lackey at $6(24), Fetches at $10(60-80), Piledriver at $10(40) and the rest being around anouther $70. so in total that is $250. A standard deck from strach is $60-80 for duals, $30-$40 for pain lands, another $120-$150 for 8-16 case rares the deck needs and lets say $40 for the rest. Thats around $250- $310. Leacgy doesn't brake the bank.
Secound market value for most of the cards in legacy outside of the duals and fetchs is secound level. Cheap stuff. Legacy when it comes down to it with the total vaule of the cards it is the cheapest format. So don't go and say it will brake the bank. Cuase it never will.
And Legacy has more then enought decks and cards to play a 100 man tourny with +16 decks. It just requires a person like myself and Issy to show up with Vial Horror and beat all the Goblin ^$*@^ and guess what, most of legacy is people like me and Issy who think outside the box and like to play a different style that is not High Tide, Threshold and Goblins al the time.
My first real post in over 5 mouths.
I'm so happy right now.
and that's exactly why there are so many goblin decks running about. it's cheap AND fun to play.
the problem is that people are lazy to think of new decks to play. and they are lazy because it doesn't get enough support.
There are 3-4 players in our area with competitive Legacy decks. the idea we're nourishing is to organize some events by ourselves, and let other people participate by lending them our decks we won't play. they'll be interested because they know they will be given a competitive deck. one problem ,though... everyone wants goblins.... :/
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Bazaar of Moxen 2013 32nd
i think that legacy just needs to be made into a more popular format. honestly, i don't like the idea that FNM is strictly type 2. i understand that most of the players that are playing FNM are only playing FNM and aren't really playing competitively. odds are they probably only have the cards that are t2 legal. but, imo, FNM gets old because it's always the same format which means you always see the same decks.
and i agree w/ the statement above that some of the FNM promos should be legacy staples. probably not lackey or something, but maybe a shiny dark ritual or lightning bolt. that would be pretty cool.
i don't know... i just think that if the legacy format were played locally on a weekly or even monthly basis it would gain more popularity. and even then it doesn't necessarily have to be played at FNM. heck, leave FNM alone and encourage local shops to run saturday or sunday legacy tournaments. in my area it's pretty much constantly a type 2 metagame. for example the closest and soonest legacy tournament i'm going to be playing in is about 70 miles or so away and doesn't occur for a little over a month from now. imo, that's ridiculous. the distance i can understand, because not everyone is blessed w/ living in an area that has a "local" shop. but only playing legacy every few months does nothing to help it's popularity.
anyway, that's my rant on legacy. bleh.
calibretto
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People should open their eyes and play legacy. It's more cheap and it's more fun.
Respect to banning lackey, i think that may be a solution but it's not the best solution. I'd like to see banned aether vial rather and wasteland rather than lackey.
These are my reasons: If vial were banned, goblins would be playable but more vulnerable to countermagic, mana denial and overcosting (sphere of resistance, chill).
If wasteland were banned, multicolor decks would become stronger, since their manabase would be more stable, and there's no need to run basic lands. Also decks that run manlands would be benefited.
calibretto
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Wasteland isn't too broken, and i doubt if it should be banned, but in extended multicoloured decks are more viable since there's no wasteland.
People sacrifices matchups to improve goblins matchup...
Round up support from other players and bug your local store owner. Even if it's not for *major* prizes, even if it's not for any more than 8 players, it's still a tournament, we are still able to play the format we enjoy so much, and the players that AREN'T playing will show an interest in some of the "cool old cards" we are using in these tournaments.
If your local store owner isn't as cooperative, he WILL be more cooperative if you become a TO yourself and offer to run the tournaments. No matter what, if a tournament is going on in a store, the owner will make some sort of a profit, even if it's only on the chips, sodas, and other such things he will be selling to the players. If he has a stock of staple cards, then so much the better- people are ALWAYS needing a one-of right before a tournament.
Also, if most people at your local store don't play, bring a few extra decks. Loan then to players that you trust, and make sure that they are strightforward and easy to learn...giving a new Legacy player Solidarity on his first go is probably a bad idea, unless he or she is used to playing combo decks like it. Most of us have extra decks, and in the end it furthers the goals we are trying to put out.:D
"I am in the arcane, and the arcane is in me."
Official Matron Mother of Clan Planar Chaos
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Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
what if you're like me and my friends, and your local store owner is a total... well, you get the picture. we hardly ever even go to FNM because of him and because there's just not any good players. technically i don't even have a 'local' store owner, considering that the closest place to play FNM, let alone legacy, is about 45-50 miles away.
we don't like to go all the way up there to play FNM, number 1, because it's located in a mall so the tourney must be done by 9pm. number 2, FNM is always type 2 so that's not really all that cool. every now and then type 2 is cool, but not every week. and even then, he has tourney's on saturday's but they're always type 2 and he sucks, so that's that.
calibretto
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