You mill till a nacromoeba. Let it enter play. Do it again. If you hit Emrakul, no biggy. Let it get shuffled, then keep going. This goes extremely quick as you are only waiting for one card to be in the graveyard.
This part is the sketchy part. Now you need Dread Return, Sharuum and Blasting Station in the yeard at the same time without Emrakul.
I use the Academy Rector and Goblin Bombardment method. This way you only need Academy Rector and Dread Return in the Graveyard without Emrakul. Sure it is only one less card needed, but it makes a world of difference.
If we can find a way of only needing one card in the graveyard at each stage to "go off" I think this would be a much more acceptable deck to run in tournaments.
So apparently if you hit Emrakul without actually doing anything then you are slow playing?
Well like above said, you can literally shuffle your deck 50 times with emrakul without getting the cards you want. Because it's so random, it's considered slow play.
Well like above said, you can literally shuffle your deck 50 times with emrakul without getting the cards you want. Because it's so random, it's considered slow play.
Theoretically this could happen. But in reality, I played this deck competitively for upwards of six months (maybe longer even) and never had an issue with this. I have recently been playing with a Food Chain deck and it takes way longer to combo off than this ever did.
Finn's last post had me excited. I thought maybe something had changed and this was playable again. In reality I'm still pretty sore about the whole thing. This was my fave deck and I sunk a lot of time and cash into it. I totally understand the reasoning behind the ruling. I just don't feel like it's really that fair to call this deck out considering how quickly you can combo off with it. And in light of the plan and intention of the deck to combo off, you are in fact advancing the board state, IMHO. But I mean "advancing" the board state in a more theoretical than mathematical way.
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Force of Will is kind of like duct tape. Stick it in a deck and it will fix all your problems.
What would a game of Magic between Harry Potter and Voldemort look like?
Theoretically this could happen. But in reality, I played this deck competitively for upwards of six months (maybe longer even) and never had an issue with this. I have recently been playing with a Food Chain deck and it takes way longer to combo off than this ever did.
Finn's last post had me excited. I thought maybe something had changed and this was playable again. In reality I'm still pretty sore about the whole thing. This was my fave deck and I sunk a lot of time and cash into it. I totally understand the reasoning behind the ruling. I just don't feel like it's really that fair to call this deck out considering how quickly you can combo off with it. And in light of the plan and intention of the deck to combo off, you are in fact advancing the board state, IMHO. But I mean "advancing" the board state in a more theoretical than mathematical way.
This is in response to the Mathematical comment: I do intend to try to figure out Mathematically the greatest amount of time (meaning shuffling) it would take in order for this deck to combo off. If this is possible, the deck would no longer be considered slow play.
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"It's actually quite simple, but since you've only recently begun to walk upright, it may take some time to explain."
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
This is in response to the Mathematical comment: I do intend to try to figure out Mathematically the greatest amount of time (meaning shuffling) it would take in order for this deck to combo off. If this is possible, the deck would no longer be considered slow play.
There is no limit, since the definition of shuffling requires you to randomize the deck. Each shuffle is independant, and whiffing 100 times in a row doesn't give you a better chance to succeed on attempt 101.
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
How about replacing Sharuum and Blasting station with Vish-kal, Blood Arbitor, and Bridge from Below.
It cuts down the number of cards you need in the yard from three to two.
Dread Return on Vish-Kal. Then use the loop of "Mill my entire deck. Sacrifice all Narcomeobas in response the the Emrakul trigger." This will net you a 2/2, and be a predictable loop.
Meets the new rules and gets neigh infinate guys, all their guys dead, and a big fatty on your side?
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
You still have the problem it being an indeterminate loop and getting called for slow play. While hitting Dread Return and Vish Kal is a lot eaisier, in tournament anyone who knows the rules is calling for a judge as soon as they see Orb/Monolith.
Your combo also involves the combat phase, and an extra turn, making it much more vulnerable because even with Cabal Therapy, if they top deck removal when you pass the turn, best case scenario the judge comes back to hit you with another warning when you try to combo again. Worst case, it's Swords to Plowshares and you have to win with Narcomoebas. Not impossible, but if they go down, you have to combo again… yeah.
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You still have the problem it being an indeterminate loop and getting called for slow play. While hitting Dread Return and Vish Kal is a lot eaisier, in tournament anyone who knows the rules is calling for a judge as soon as they see Orb/Monolith.
Your combo also involves the combat phase, and an extra turn, making it much more vulnerable because even with Cabal Therapy, if they top deck removal when you pass the turn, best case scenario the judge comes back to hit you with another warning when you try to combo again. Worst case, it's Swords to Plowshares and you have to win with Narcomoebas. Not impossible, but if they go down, you have to combo again… yeah.
I admit it's weaker, but due to the nature of the emrakul trigger it will always produce a fixed outcome every time you go through. You will always put four Narcomeobas into play. You will always sacrifice them to add four counters to Vish-Kal. You will always produce four 2/2 zombie tokens. You will always then shuffle your deck. You will always then be ready to repeat the above steps.
Or you could just add Quicken to the combo, and just dread-return Emrakul.
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
Once you have Vish Kal out it's fine. The problem is that you still need to combo off and get him out. Also, you presumably want to stop and cast Cabal Therapy occasionally, and you can't do either of those things without an opponent calling the judge over.
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There is no limit, since the definition of shuffling requires you to randomize the deck. Each shuffle is independant, and whiffing 100 times in a row doesn't give you a better chance to succeed on attempt 101.
Actually, you might be surprised as to how non-random certain events are. I am actually pursuing a doctorate in studying complex systems and chaos is a lot more predictable than it likes to let on.
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The problem isn't saying that this can happen. The real issue is that because the real plan of this deck is to use 4 narcomoebas multiple times for Cabal Therapy, Dread Return, etc, you really can't reliably shortcut the process, and no opponent is going to be okay with you saying, "I combo, I'm just gonna flashback 4 Cabal Therapy and Dread Return for the win." Without making you do it.
Additionally, even if you are able to calculate that performing the loop X times will give the desired result at least once, from my understanding of the rules you have to lock in the number of loops, then perform that many actions (usually through shortcut), and then you can take additional actions. You would have to know the exact number of loops needed to hit 3 Narcos in play, with all combo pieces in the 'yard without hitting Emrakul. Which doesn't seem possible to calculate.
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Ya gotta be careful about making the deck any less consistent. It is better than Breakfast because of the creature removal issue and the ability to blank opponent hate for game 2, but only by a bit. If you go adding requirements the deck loses these edges, and you may as well use Breakfast.
The problem isn't saying that this can happen. The real issue is that because the real plan of this deck is to use 4 narcomoebas multiple times for Cabal Therapy, Dread Return, etc, you really can't reliably shortcut the process, and no opponent is going to be okay with you saying, "I combo, I'm just gonna flashback 4 Cabal Therapy and Dread Return for the win." Without making you do it.
Additionally, even if you are able to calculate that performing the loop X times will give the desired result at least once, from my understanding of the rules you have to lock in the number of loops, then perform that many actions (usually through shortcut), and then you can take additional actions. You would have to know the exact number of loops needed to hit 3 Narcos in play, with all combo pieces in the 'yard without hitting Emrakul. Which doesn't seem possible to calculate.
Is it legal to say "I Mill by one until I hit Emrakul. Then in response to the Emrakul trigger I mill the rest."?
I'm just confused how Ad Nausum can flip-over their deck one card at a time, but when this deck does it, it is considered slow-play.
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
Cabal Therapy is a sorcery. There is a nonzero chance you will mill Emrakul before Narcomoeba or Therapy.
I believe the Slow Play rule was established at least partially to keep games from going literally forever. It's a shame this deck may have to take forever to play optimally, even if each mill loop took 1 millisecond.
Also, Ad Nauseam decks whack their own life pretty fast with that card. It's risky to flip anything to that card when you have 4 life or less (what if you flip Tendrils?), and you're probably drawing fewer than 20 cards with Ad Nauseam.
Actually, you might be surprised as to how non-random certain events are. I am actually pursuing a doctorate in studying complex systems and chaos is a lot more predictable than it likes to let on.
I would be interested in reading a published version of this once you finish it. It's an interesting subject that I've dabbled in when I have time. Regardless of how long it takes.
Ad Nauseam has a true endpoint that can be declared after x iterations. Either you draw your whole deck or you die, the two extremes (with most players obviously choosing to stop short in case b..) are set.
This combo doesn't. You have an endpoint, but you can't say how many iterations it will take to complete the combo.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Lectrys has the reasoning. If you were simply flipping your deck for some sort of Hermit Druid style combo (like the Cephalid Breakfast deck Finn mentioned does) then that's fine. The problem is that you aren't just doing that. You want to cast Sorcery cards from your graveyard, and while running Emrakul lets you technically flashback all 4 Cabal Therapy and 1 Dread Return off of 4 Narcomoeba, it doesn't do it reliably.
Ad Nauseam has an end. Even if you do have a "Can't lose" efect going, once your entire deck is in your hand, you're done and you combo off. There's no card that randomly makes you shuffle your hand back into your deck and start over.
I would be interested in reading a published version of this once you finish it. It's an interesting subject that I've dabbled in when I have time. Regardless of how long it takes.
Not a problem. It might be a few years down the road, though. By that time, Wizards will come out with some other ruling like "no math" probably.
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"It's actually quite simple, but since you've only recently begun to walk upright, it may take some time to explain."
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
So if Leyline of Anticipation was added, it could all be done in two instances of milling your deck. (Once to cabal therepy four times, once more to cast dread return on Sharuum and bring back Blasting Station) you can then garentee the damage output, and avoid the slowplay call?
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
That should work, but I'd ask a judge exactly how to say it in tournament since there is the Emrakul in there. You can't just say "I activate Basalt Monolith X times" (where X is cards left in your library) because then that puts all the mill triggers on the stack right then, before Emrakul's shuffle triggers. However, only doing 2 loops might be quick enough to avoid the slow play call to begin with.
It does add an extra card to the combo, which makes it less consistent. That might be unavoidable at this point though, being able to play the deck if you want kinda comes first.
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I don't see the point of leyline of anticipation in this deck. If you wanted you could just use the mimeoplasm kill/no emrakul in your deck so you mill your narc's, dread return, murderous redcap, mimeoplasm, and lord of extinction then proceed to win without having to reshuffle. That also takes up less slots than adding 4 leyline's to the deck, as leyline is a very bad card in nature because mulling to it or hardcasting it aren't what you want to be doing.
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This isn't 100% accurate.
You mill till a nacromoeba. Let it enter play. Do it again. If you hit Emrakul, no biggy. Let it get shuffled, then keep going. This goes extremely quick as you are only waiting for one card to be in the graveyard.
This part is the sketchy part. Now you need Dread Return, Sharuum and Blasting Station in the yeard at the same time without Emrakul.
I use the Academy Rector and Goblin Bombardment method. This way you only need Academy Rector and Dread Return in the Graveyard without Emrakul. Sure it is only one less card needed, but it makes a world of difference.
If we can find a way of only needing one card in the graveyard at each stage to "go off" I think this would be a much more acceptable deck to run in tournaments.
How did he not get called on the new ruling?
EDIT: anyway, 2 weeks in a row for me. Weeee.
EDIT EDIT: Oops. It is labeled 1st place, but the tournament is not even over. Whatever. Im going to sleep.
It's a shame this deck potentially might have to combo off forever before it actually does something.
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Well like above said, you can literally shuffle your deck 50 times with emrakul without getting the cards you want. Because it's so random, it's considered slow play.
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Theoretically this could happen. But in reality, I played this deck competitively for upwards of six months (maybe longer even) and never had an issue with this. I have recently been playing with a Food Chain deck and it takes way longer to combo off than this ever did.
Finn's last post had me excited. I thought maybe something had changed and this was playable again. In reality I'm still pretty sore about the whole thing. This was my fave deck and I sunk a lot of time and cash into it. I totally understand the reasoning behind the ruling. I just don't feel like it's really that fair to call this deck out considering how quickly you can combo off with it. And in light of the plan and intention of the deck to combo off, you are in fact advancing the board state, IMHO. But I mean "advancing" the board state in a more theoretical than mathematical way.
BGSpanish InquisitionGB
GFood Chain ElvesG
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BUThe Four Horsemen (RIP)UB
This is in response to the Mathematical comment: I do intend to try to figure out Mathematically the greatest amount of time (meaning shuffling) it would take in order for this deck to combo off. If this is possible, the deck would no longer be considered slow play.
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
There is no limit, since the definition of shuffling requires you to randomize the deck. Each shuffle is independant, and whiffing 100 times in a row doesn't give you a better chance to succeed on attempt 101.
It cuts down the number of cards you need in the yard from three to two.
Dread Return on Vish-Kal. Then use the loop of "Mill my entire deck. Sacrifice all Narcomeobas in response the the Emrakul trigger." This will net you a 2/2, and be a predictable loop.
Meets the new rules and gets neigh infinate guys, all their guys dead, and a big fatty on your side?
Your combo also involves the combat phase, and an extra turn, making it much more vulnerable because even with Cabal Therapy, if they top deck removal when you pass the turn, best case scenario the judge comes back to hit you with another warning when you try to combo again. Worst case, it's Swords to Plowshares and you have to win with Narcomoebas. Not impossible, but if they go down, you have to combo again… yeah.
Afro Dave, @st4rwind on Twitter
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I admit it's weaker, but due to the nature of the emrakul trigger it will always produce a fixed outcome every time you go through. You will always put four Narcomeobas into play. You will always sacrifice them to add four counters to Vish-Kal. You will always produce four 2/2 zombie tokens. You will always then shuffle your deck. You will always then be ready to repeat the above steps.
Or you could just add Quicken to the combo, and just dread-return Emrakul.
Afro Dave, @st4rwind on Twitter
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Actually, you might be surprised as to how non-random certain events are. I am actually pursuing a doctorate in studying complex systems and chaos is a lot more predictable than it likes to let on.
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
Additionally, even if you are able to calculate that performing the loop X times will give the desired result at least once, from my understanding of the rules you have to lock in the number of loops, then perform that many actions (usually through shortcut), and then you can take additional actions. You would have to know the exact number of loops needed to hit 3 Narcos in play, with all combo pieces in the 'yard without hitting Emrakul. Which doesn't seem possible to calculate.
Afro Dave, @st4rwind on Twitter
Level 2 Judge
Legacy Decks:
- Imperial Bloodwolf R
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- Burn R
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- Belcher RG
- 10 Land Stompy G
- Zoo (budget) RGW
Is it legal to say "I Mill by one until I hit Emrakul. Then in response to the Emrakul trigger I mill the rest."?
I'm just confused how Ad Nausum can flip-over their deck one card at a time, but when this deck does it, it is considered slow-play.
I believe the Slow Play rule was established at least partially to keep games from going literally forever. It's a shame this deck may have to take forever to play optimally, even if each mill loop took 1 millisecond.
Also, Ad Nauseam decks whack their own life pretty fast with that card. It's risky to flip anything to that card when you have 4 life or less (what if you flip Tendrils?), and you're probably drawing fewer than 20 cards with Ad Nauseam.
I would be interested in reading a published version of this once you finish it. It's an interesting subject that I've dabbled in when I have time. Regardless of how long it takes.
Ad Nauseam has a true endpoint that can be declared after x iterations. Either you draw your whole deck or you die, the two extremes (with most players obviously choosing to stop short in case b..) are set.
This combo doesn't. You have an endpoint, but you can't say how many iterations it will take to complete the combo.
EDH:
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BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Ad Nauseam has an end. Even if you do have a "Can't lose" efect going, once your entire deck is in your hand, you're done and you combo off. There's no card that randomly makes you shuffle your hand back into your deck and start over.
edit: It seems Gaka types faster than I.
Afro Dave, @st4rwind on Twitter
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Not a problem. It might be a few years down the road, though. By that time, Wizards will come out with some other ruling like "no math" probably.
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
It does add an extra card to the combo, which makes it less consistent. That might be unavoidable at this point though, being able to play the deck if you want kinda comes first.
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