Murphy's law certainly applies, consider that even though a distribution might apply to a large number of games, over the small number you're applying that distribution to, you're not going to likely hit an even curve fit. If you disagree, might I suggest you try a simple gaussian (bell) monte carlo simulation? if you run it 10 times, you're going to have a very random sampling. 100? better, but not guaranteed. 1000? you'll probably fit the curve pretty well. 10,000 or 100,000? you'll probably be spot on. Over the small number of games a deck like this will typically play (say 50 or 60), it's going to seem to be completely random. As MTG is played by people and not computers, they're going to play what makes them comfortable.
For example, I had an old geddon white weenie deck that had a random curve (a few 4cc things besides geddon (while I was a very new player as well)), and only ran 18 lands. I played it hundreds of times and it did great and even placed me in a few very small local tournies. When I added better cards, and a better statistical curve, it performed much more poorly, even though the math was better. Seems a pretty good example of murhpy's law to me.
The results are no-where near random with a size of 100. Run one yourself, with a simple test for distribution of land in opening hand. It will start approaching the hypergeometric very quickly. If you don't believe me, may I ask how you determine land count? Just wing it and hope for the best?
Please do not mix statistics, and voodoo-statistics, and then post it as fact. If you are using the phrase "Murphy's Law" then it's voodoo-statistics. Discussions of 'luck' and other imaginary constructs have no place in statistics.
I realize people don't understand statistics, but could you possibly make better arguments than: luck, Murphy's law, and correlation-implies-causation?
I've run hundreds..it comes with being a research engineer and typically I follow the math for land counts. There are times, though, when even though I do, I have to reduce or increase the number for the deck because though the math was on, the deck didn't play that way. What I was trying to point out that is that people are people, and voodoo statistics, as you call it, is what they understand. It's more appropriately called conventional wisdom, meaning no that no matter what you do to improve your chances, you still can't control it perfectly. It is random, which is where things like the concept of luck and murphy's law come into being.
Sorry for the derailing: I'd agree that something a bit more general than snuff out is a good idea. If you think you're going to win it or lose it in the first say 3 turns, then by all means run it. I might consider a more solid alternate win condition or some way of recycling the creatures for a long game, though. If you can constantly get them back (volrath's stronghold , for instance), then you can wear out stronger aggressive opponents and eventually bring them low.
Well apologies if I argued too strongly, but I cringe when people bring luck into statistics. I got jumped on (and told I didn't understand Magic or statistics), because I said there was a 93% chance of finding one of 14 different cards out of 51 by sampling 7 cards. Every single game of Magic you play, you draw an opening hand and expect to see 2 or 3 Land. There is no significant difference between expecting to see playable land count in your opening hand, and making a guess at how much X should be on a Plunge based on a general idea of how your deck will behave.
Just to wrap up the stats thing, the reason why it is relevant isn't so that you can sit there in a game doing math in your head, it's so you have a general idea how your deck behaves. I may have made a tactical error bringing statistics into the mix, but the purpose of running Plunge Into Darkness over something like Spoils of the Vault in this deck is the flexibility to go for the functionality of a card, not a specific card. Because it lets you pick the value of X, it is outright foolish to not examine the behavior of this mechanic, and try and use it wisely.
My mistake if I indicated that you could use statistics to predict the outcome of a game. That was not at all my intent.
Back on discussion...
My meta-game is full of combo; belcher and ANT (Goblins also have a strong showing). The game will be over in 3 turns, and that's usually all there is to it.* I put 3 Mindbreak Trap's in the sideboard, and I think that should help the combo matchup significantly.
I totally agree with the long-game sentiment. As I said, meta demands I play control, or race the combo. I think Eternal Witness is a really strong card because it provides a blocker with the Regrowth effect, but the amount of Infect creatures out there is really too limited. It is my (totally-unfounded) opinion that we will see stronger Infect creatures, once an 'answer' has been printed. Mirrodin #1 had a CoP: Artifacts, and so it seems likely that a more viable/utilitarian anti-poison card will be printed in one of the next two sets. We will see, though. Like I said...this deck may never get the parts it needs to be a truly viable competitor, but it has potential.
* Last week I beat-down an ANT deck with my Eternal Witnesses. My turn 1 Duress nailed the Lion Eye Diamond in his hand. His Turn 1 was Duress me. I then played that same Duress again on Turn 4 and 5 thanks to Witnesses. His only land was City of Brass, and with the cards I drew, a damage-beatdown was faster than poison (just remember to hard-cast Invigorate).
(Also at the risk of derail: do you have a shuffling algorithm you use in your simulations? I am using the Durnsfield version of Fisher-Yates, but still a default [Ruby] RNG.)
(Also at the risk of derail: do you have a shuffling algorithm you use in your simulations? I am using the Durnsfield version of Fisher-Yates, but still a default [Ruby] RNG.)
nah. I actually write my own in matlab. it comes with the territory of running monte carlos as an engineer. It's not something I can give out, though. Also, I use simulations for research, not for MTG. I could easily enough write one, I suppose. Offhand, modifying a uniform distribution through the hypergeometric relations is only a couple of lines of code. Then all you have to do is give it a modification factor vector space corresponding to your distribution of cards and you should be good to go. maybe an 8 line algorithm to run, hell to get it to display on a graph, though.
Anyways, eternal witness is pretty good. Have you considered the stronghold strategy with the infect return guy? you can recover from combat pretty quickly that way.
No prob, I don't have MATLAB. I wrote my own sim mostly for fun, but also because I wanted it as a web-app.
I haven't gone for a kind of Corpse Cur / Volrath's Stronghold recursion is that I don't feel like the deck has enough stamina to support it. I'd rather run around 18-20 Infect creatures. I think the lack of a 1-drop Infect creature is the biggest weakness. I don't like Vector Asp but I may not be giving it a fair shake.
I don't have a Stronghold, but it may work very well. It hurts running a non-black source that isn't a Forest, but the recursion effect is cheap to use, and could help. I will test it this week.
No tourney results tonight. Only 3 people showed for some reason, so we played more civilized decks for fun instead.
Should Giant Growth be in this deck? I think that it could be in the deck filling the role similar to that of Vines of Vastwood it can save your creatures from the removal that can be stopped by pump and Might of Old Krosa or Groundswell cannot since they can only give +2/+2 on your opponents turn. I only think it could be Vines of Vastwood number 5-6.
Why are you not running Putrefax? It seems like it would work pretty well with this deck...
Costs too much.
Is the new Phyrexian Crusader going to be useful in this build.
I think it might be better then Cystbearer cause of the pro white and pro red, and the first strike should make it as relevent as the Cystbearer 3 toughness.
Argh...I read through and see everyone going down the wrong path (in my honest opinion of course). This is a COMBO deck. So it must behave like one. I see thoughtseize and xanthid swarms mainboard which is a bad idea. It really slows you down and will draw you into irrelevant cards. ANT can afford to run duress and xanthid because they can go off very quickly already and are ruined more by control than we are. We can still be the beat down if need be, but ANT needs to push through. This means -4 xanthid and -4 thoughtseize.
The other thing I noticed is not many people run rancor? This is the only other spell that gives us trample. It is godly on an ichorclaw myr! It makes every other pump in the deck beat HARD. I feel like 19-21 pumps is the right class and 14-18 creatures should suffice.
Elvish Spirit guides are a must if you want to go the beatdown plan or to dodge daze/spell pierce as well as power out beaters turn 1.
@Cystbearer
Too slow.
@Phyrexian Crusader
Very good, but also too slow. In my old berserk stompy shell I tried to run Troll Aesthetic for the same reason, but it was aweful most of the time. I almost always preferred silhana ledgewalker.
@Groundswell
Good pump, but might of old krosa is strictly better. It is still usable in decks with more mana, but will always be subpar to might which is a guaranteed 4. You need usually need 1 creature and 1 pump + berserk for win. That pump needs to give +4 so berserk deals 10.
@Vector Asp
I kind of like this card because it can come down turn 1 without acceleration. It doesn't have inherent infect and requires a B to be paid which has caused it to fall out of favor with me. I usually cannot afford to pay the B if I want to win turn 2-3 and wastelands ruins your day if you cannot pay.
I like this list. I think I'd cut the 3 Hierarch for Lotus Petals. I get that Exalted is cute, but has it really been THAT great in testing that just playing a 2-drop Infect creature on turn 1 just wouldn't be better?
I disagree about Thoughtsize/Duress and Crusader (But agree about Swarm and other cards you discussed). I play a black-splash-green deck, though, and you play a green deck, so we are not looking at the same constraints.
1-CMC hand disruption is critical, in my experience, not only for the disruption, but for seeing what they are holding. A T1 Thoughtseize is a fantastic play, in my book.
Casting Phyrexian Crusader off a Dark Ritual will be one of the best T1 infect plays out there, in my opinion. I think that Crusader is very important because the specific problem in Infect is ensuring creatures survive/hit. Crusader is a great T1 off a ritual, a good T2 off a petal, and a strong late-game, near-unremovable blocker. Some testing will be needed, of course, but I think he'll be 4-of in my deck; again, I play Black as the strong color, so I can see difference in perspective.
I really disagree with Noble Heirarch. I think it is too slow, and none of the mana-colors it produces are relevant to me. Again, your milage may vary.
I've been sick for the last 2 weeks, no results. Will post updated decklist after tomorrow (hopefully people haven't started going home for Christmas yet and we get enough for a tourney).
I like this list. I think I'd cut the 3 Hierarch for Lotus Petals. I get that Exalted is cute, but has it really been THAT great in testing that just playing a 2-drop Infect creature on turn 1 just wouldn't be better?
It isn't just exalted. It + ESG lets me beatdown regular damage for the win if I NEED to. It also helps me mana fix. The exalted is just a HUGE +!
I disagree about Thoughtsize/Duress and Crusader (But agree about Swarm and other cards you discussed). I play a black-splash-green deck, though, and you play a green deck, so we are not looking at the same constraints.
1-CMC hand disruption is critical, in my experience, not only for the disruption, but for seeing what they are holding. A T1 Thoughtseize is a fantastic play, in my book.
Casting Phyrexian Crusader off a Dark Ritual will be one of the best T1 infect plays out there, in my opinion. I think that Crusader is very important because the specific problem in Infect is ensuring creatures survive/hit. Crusader is a great T1 off a ritual, a good T2 off a petal, and a strong late-game, near-unremovable blocker. Some testing will be needed, of course, but I think he'll be 4-of in my deck; again, I play Black as the strong color, so I can see difference in perspective.
I really disagree with Noble Heirarch. I think it is too slow, and none of the mana-colors it produces are relevant to me. Again, your milage may vary.
I've been sick for the last 2 weeks, no results. Will post updated decklist after tomorrow (hopefully people haven't started going home for Christmas yet and we get enough for a tourney).
We do have different lists, but I feel that your list has a hard time comboing to chain pumps. You may get creatures out that are a tad better (e.g. - crusader) and disrupt them a bit, but your clock is way slower than G/b. Each strategy is viable, but you let them drop answers if you're too slow.
Well I wouldn't say "way slower" but I agree it's different. Turn 2/3 win is still the target, it's just slightly harder without Berserk (which I do not yet have, I am working on trading/buying them). I'm trying to shape the deck to be black-heavy and pay life-for-win, hence Plunge Into Darkness. To this end, Hatred would be fantastic, but it doesn't fit the curve, and would also require more land; also paying life for cards *and* paying life for damage is a bit much.
I am attempting to trade 'combo' for slightly better reliability. I think the 1-CMC disruption spells are super important. It's a great T1 play, either straight-up, or Ritual + Duress + 2-CMC creature.
I am still thinking about my list for tonight, but I am likely going to take out Eternal Witness + Pendelhaven (Pendelhaven is land #18), and add 3 Sign In Blood. Then I may run 4 Duress and 3 Plunge Into Darkness, or 3 Duress/4 Plunge, I am not certain yet.
All that being said...I have been pondering the Green-splash-Black direction that you are going and I like it. I just am wary of no draw, and no dig; Plunge Into Darkness has just been fantastic for me.
Well I wouldn't say "way slower" but I agree it's different. Turn 2/3 win is still the target, it's just slightly harder without Berserk (which I do not yet have, I am working on trading/buying them). I'm trying to shape the deck to be black-heavy and pay life-for-win, hence Plunge Into Darkness. To this end, Hatred would be fantastic, but it doesn't fit the curve, and would also require more land; also paying life for cards *and* paying life for damage is a bit much.
I am attempting to trade 'combo' for slightly better reliability. I think the 1-CMC disruption spells are super important. It's a great T1 play, either straight-up, or Ritual + Duress + 2-CMC creature.
I am still thinking about my list for tonight, but I am likely going to take out Eternal Witness + Pendelhaven (Pendelhaven is land #18), and add 3 Sign In Blood. Then I may run 4 Duress and 3 Plunge Into Darkness, or 3 Duress/4 Plunge, I am not certain yet.
All that being said...I have been pondering the Green-splash-Black direction that you are going and I like it. I just am wary of no draw, and no dig; Plunge Into Darkness has just been fantastic for me.
But it does have dig...fantastic dig in the form of Sylvan Library. I've just chosen not to use it to make the deck faster and more explosive. My old list had library in it as a 3 of and it was pretty consistent, but a bit slower than the current form. I'm sure great infectors will come out...just have to realize that stifling the pump for a slightly better infect dude may be the wrong move. You can even keep your control in a green splashing black build and run fetches/4bayou/1 swamp.
3 seems like a good number for Sylvan Library. My reason for not running it has been that, on Turn-2, I want to be dropping a creature (if I didn't on T1). I considered Mirri's Guile but I am not sure. It seems like running Guile + fetch lands could be a very attractive option. It would work better with a green-dominant build, not my current.
It is really going to depend on the quality/color of the Infect creatures in MBS and 'Action' (go go New Phyrexia) to see where Infect goes.
3 seems like a good number for Sylvan Library. My reason for not running it has been that, on Turn-2, I want to be dropping a creature (if I didn't on T1). I considered Mirri's Guile but I am not sure. It seems like running Guile + fetch lands could be a very attractive option. It would work better with a green-dominant build, not my current.
It is really going to depend on the quality/color of the Infect creatures in MBS and 'Action' (go go New Phyrexia) to see where Infect goes.
Agreed. The thing about guile is that it doesn't give you QUANTITY. It does play better with fetches though!
There are a few other "free" spells I've been looking at, but as of now, I don't think that they fit: Bounty of the Hunt Dark triumph
Right now the deck is extremely fast. Playing free spells are definately the way to go. I had tried rancor, but I just didn't like it. I also think that some sort of disruption is a must, hence the thoughtseize and therapy.
lost 1-2 vs CounterTop: Rough matchup, hand disruption was key to knowing what kind of counters he was holding pre-Counterbalance. Rancor draws a counter almost every time. Would have won this 2-0 but for a lucky Counterbalance for 3 that countered my rats to finish.
lost 0-2 vs Show-And-Tell: Emrakul hurts, HiveMind/Pact hurts. I had nothing for this in the sideboard except 1 extra duress, the Mindbreak Traps were useless to side in for this combo.
lost 0-2 vs Goblins: Mana flood in game 1. Game 2 went better; Ichorclaw is a beast, but 2 gempalms later and I was trading creature-for-creature, which is a losing strategy against goblins. Didn't find Engineered Plague fast enough and the inevitable was soon to follow.
Thoughts: I'm going to continue thinking about this deck, and working on getting the Berserks, but I'm putting it mostly on pause for now. I ate 2 Swords, and 5 Gempalms last night, and am really looking forward to that Crusader. Infect needs more/better creatures. Crusader will help, but another CMC <= 3 Infect critter, ideally with a good ETB effect would really help out.
You can Inqusition or trade creatures with goblins for a bit, but E. Plague finishes the matchup. Necropede is fantastic against goblins, sac-ing a Necropede to Plunge to clear a Matron-chump-block is great.
A resolved Emrakul is likely game-over for us, due to Annihilator 6. You need to either have 2 creatures down and the win in hand, or it's all over but the face-beating. The biggest issue vs the Show-N-Tell combo is that I was totally unprepared for it. My meta usually has Blecher/ANT as the combo, both of which I have 7 cards against (4 Duress/Thoughtsieze, 3 Mindbreak Trap).
I don't run vines, too hard to get GG in my build. Avoid Fate doesn't help at all vs. goblins as you will generally be getting burned by a cycled gempalm.
I think the biggest issue is that the deck requires creatures to resolve, swing, and connect...and there's only 16 Infect creatures worth running. I'm hoping to have 24 or so after MBS, and at that point I am thinking that an Aether Vial build could be the way to go. If that becomes the case, I would drop hand-disruption to sideboard, and make Turn1 either a Dark Ritual play, or Aether Vial. That is heavily dependent on the kind of Infect creatures, though.
You can Inqusition or trade creatures with goblins for a bit, but E. Plague finishes the matchup. Necropede is fantastic against goblins, sac-ing a Necropede to Plunge to clear a Matron-chump-block is great.
A resolved Emrakul is likely game-over for us, due to Annihilator 6. You need to either have 2 creatures down and the win in hand, or it's all over but the face-beating. The biggest issue vs the Show-N-Tell combo is that I was totally unprepared for it. My meta usually has Blecher/ANT as the combo, both of which I have 7 cards against (4 Duress/Thoughtsieze, 3 Mindbreak Trap).
I don't run vines, too hard to get GG in my build. Avoid Fate doesn't help at all vs. goblins as you will generally be getting burned by a cycled gempalm.
I think the biggest issue is that the deck requires creatures to resolve, swing, and connect...and there's only 16 Infect creatures worth running. I'm hoping to have 24 or so after MBS, and at that point I am thinking that an Aether Vial build could be the way to go. If that becomes the case, I would drop hand-disruption to sideboard, and make Turn1 either a Dark Ritual play, or Aether Vial. That is heavily dependent on the kind of Infect creatures, though.
Do you run Elvish Spirit Guide and Lotus Petal? You should be able to Turn 1 play a 2-drop infect guy every game. It's not actually THAT often that they have the Force if you're on the play. You will have to watch out for Daze, though.
You can Inqusition or trade creatures with goblins for a bit, but E. Plague finishes the matchup. Necropede is fantastic against goblins, sac-ing a Necropede to Plunge to clear a Matron-chump-block is great.
A resolved Emrakul is likely game-over for us, due to Annihilator 6. You need to either have 2 creatures down and the win in hand, or it's all over but the face-beating. The biggest issue vs the Show-N-Tell combo is that I was totally unprepared for it. My meta usually has Blecher/ANT as the combo, both of which I have 7 cards against (4 Duress/Thoughtsieze, 3 Mindbreak Trap).
I don't run vines, too hard to get GG in my build. Avoid Fate doesn't help at all vs. goblins as you will generally be getting burned by a cycled gempalm.
I think the biggest issue is that the deck requires creatures to resolve, swing, and connect...and there's only 16 Infect creatures worth running. I'm hoping to have 24 or so after MBS, and at that point I am thinking that an Aether Vial build could be the way to go. If that becomes the case, I would drop hand-disruption to sideboard, and make Turn1 either a Dark Ritual play, or Aether Vial. That is heavily dependent on the kind of Infect creatures, though.
I'm really curious as to what performance you guys are getting. Step back for just one second and take a look at the vulnerabilities of the deck. It's a 16-creature deck, and the creatures are largely mediocre. A 1/1 with Infect for 2-mana is essentially a bear with special pump-interaction. Half the creatures are artifacts. None have strong ETB effects, none have strong LTB effects. Plague Stinger has evasion, none of the rest do. None have any protection.
The landbase is small, and has no secondary function (IE. no man-lands, no land tricks, no accel). You will likely see 3, maybe 4 lands per game. Any more, and you are getting flooded, any less and you are screwed. This puts you in double-jeopardy against any kind of control; you must play competently to draw-out counterspells to protect your real pump, while at the same time, you lose the mana, and card-advantage war against the control player.
Against any kind of creature-based aggro deck, you will quickly get overwhelmed and out-gunned. Against combo, you have to race. They have tutor, ponder, Orim's Chant, etc to buy time, and search for missing pieces Infect has nothing. Against anything packing burn, you are toast.
This is essentially a creature-combo deck, with no card draw, no scry, no tutor, and no dig...also only 16 creatures, none of which have any interaction with each-other.
There's decks that require aggressive mullaganing, and then there's just unstable decks. This is the latter. It is a deck that needs a turn-1 creature, and there aren't any 1-drop creatures. A single swords will lose you a game, a naturalize, a counterspell, any burn, a fat-flying-blocker, and these are commonplace. It's too fragile, and it doesn't have the speed, consistency, or ability to fetch missing pieces like other combo decks.
Infect needs more, and better creatures to be competitive in Legacy.
For example, I had an old geddon white weenie deck that had a random curve (a few 4cc things besides geddon (while I was a very new player as well)), and only ran 18 lands. I played it hundreds of times and it did great and even placed me in a few very small local tournies. When I added better cards, and a better statistical curve, it performed much more poorly, even though the math was better. Seems a pretty good example of murhpy's law to me.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Please do not mix statistics, and voodoo-statistics, and then post it as fact. If you are using the phrase "Murphy's Law" then it's voodoo-statistics. Discussions of 'luck' and other imaginary constructs have no place in statistics.
I realize people don't understand statistics, but could you possibly make better arguments than: luck, Murphy's law, and correlation-implies-causation?
Sorry for the derailing: I'd agree that something a bit more general than snuff out is a good idea. If you think you're going to win it or lose it in the first say 3 turns, then by all means run it. I might consider a more solid alternate win condition or some way of recycling the creatures for a long game, though. If you can constantly get them back (volrath's stronghold , for instance), then you can wear out stronger aggressive opponents and eventually bring them low.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Just to wrap up the stats thing, the reason why it is relevant isn't so that you can sit there in a game doing math in your head, it's so you have a general idea how your deck behaves. I may have made a tactical error bringing statistics into the mix, but the purpose of running Plunge Into Darkness over something like Spoils of the Vault in this deck is the flexibility to go for the functionality of a card, not a specific card. Because it lets you pick the value of X, it is outright foolish to not examine the behavior of this mechanic, and try and use it wisely.
My mistake if I indicated that you could use statistics to predict the outcome of a game. That was not at all my intent.
Back on discussion...
My meta-game is full of combo; belcher and ANT (Goblins also have a strong showing). The game will be over in 3 turns, and that's usually all there is to it.* I put 3 Mindbreak Trap's in the sideboard, and I think that should help the combo matchup significantly.
I totally agree with the long-game sentiment. As I said, meta demands I play control, or race the combo. I think Eternal Witness is a really strong card because it provides a blocker with the Regrowth effect, but the amount of Infect creatures out there is really too limited. It is my (totally-unfounded) opinion that we will see stronger Infect creatures, once an 'answer' has been printed. Mirrodin #1 had a CoP: Artifacts, and so it seems likely that a more viable/utilitarian anti-poison card will be printed in one of the next two sets. We will see, though. Like I said...this deck may never get the parts it needs to be a truly viable competitor, but it has potential.
* Last week I beat-down an ANT deck with my Eternal Witnesses. My turn 1 Duress nailed the Lion Eye Diamond in his hand. His Turn 1 was Duress me. I then played that same Duress again on Turn 4 and 5 thanks to Witnesses. His only land was City of Brass, and with the cards I drew, a damage-beatdown was faster than poison (just remember to hard-cast Invigorate).
(Also at the risk of derail: do you have a shuffling algorithm you use in your simulations? I am using the Durnsfield version of Fisher-Yates, but still a default [Ruby] RNG.)
nah. I actually write my own in matlab. it comes with the territory of running monte carlos as an engineer. It's not something I can give out, though. Also, I use simulations for research, not for MTG. I could easily enough write one, I suppose. Offhand, modifying a uniform distribution through the hypergeometric relations is only a couple of lines of code. Then all you have to do is give it a modification factor vector space corresponding to your distribution of cards and you should be good to go. maybe an 8 line algorithm to run, hell to get it to display on a graph, though.
Anyways, eternal witness is pretty good. Have you considered the stronghold strategy with the infect return guy? you can recover from combat pretty quickly that way.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
I haven't gone for a kind of Corpse Cur / Volrath's Stronghold recursion is that I don't feel like the deck has enough stamina to support it. I'd rather run around 18-20 Infect creatures. I think the lack of a 1-drop Infect creature is the biggest weakness. I don't like Vector Asp but I may not be giving it a fair shake.
I don't have a Stronghold, but it may work very well. It hurts running a non-black source that isn't a Forest, but the recursion effect is cheap to use, and could help. I will test it this week.
No tourney results tonight. Only 3 people showed for some reason, so we played more civilized decks for fun instead.
RBurn
G Agro Elves
Costs too much.
Is the new Phyrexian Crusader going to be useful in this build.
I think it might be better then Cystbearer cause of the pro white and pro red, and the first strike should make it as relevent as the Cystbearer 3 toughness.
The other thing I noticed is not many people run rancor? This is the only other spell that gives us trample. It is godly on an ichorclaw myr! It makes every other pump in the deck beat HARD. I feel like 19-21 pumps is the right class and 14-18 creatures should suffice.
Elvish Spirit guides are a must if you want to go the beatdown plan or to dodge daze/spell pierce as well as power out beaters turn 1.
@Cystbearer
Too slow.
@Phyrexian Crusader
Very good, but also too slow. In my old berserk stompy shell I tried to run Troll Aesthetic for the same reason, but it was aweful most of the time. I almost always preferred silhana ledgewalker.
@Groundswell
Good pump, but might of old krosa is strictly better. It is still usable in decks with more mana, but will always be subpar to might which is a guaranteed 4. You need usually need 1 creature and 1 pump + berserk for win. That pump needs to give +4 so berserk deals 10.
@Vector Asp
I kind of like this card because it can come down turn 1 without acceleration. It doesn't have inherent infect and requires a B to be paid which has caused it to fall out of favor with me. I usually cannot afford to pay the B if I want to win turn 2-3 and wastelands ruins your day if you cannot pay.
Here is my list for discussion:
4 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdent Catacomb
8 Forest
Creatures:
4 Necropede
4 Plague Stinger
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Blight Mamba
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Berserk
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Invigorate
4 Vines of Vastwood
Enchantments:
4 Rancor
4 Duress
2 Avoid Fate
1 Vexing Shusher
2 Reverent Silence
4 Nature's Claim
2 (meta call)
This build has served me well and is a consistent turn 2-3 kill. Let me know what you guys think.
I like this list. I think I'd cut the 3 Hierarch for Lotus Petals. I get that Exalted is cute, but has it really been THAT great in testing that just playing a 2-drop Infect creature on turn 1 just wouldn't be better?
1-CMC hand disruption is critical, in my experience, not only for the disruption, but for seeing what they are holding. A T1 Thoughtseize is a fantastic play, in my book.
Casting Phyrexian Crusader off a Dark Ritual will be one of the best T1 infect plays out there, in my opinion. I think that Crusader is very important because the specific problem in Infect is ensuring creatures survive/hit. Crusader is a great T1 off a ritual, a good T2 off a petal, and a strong late-game, near-unremovable blocker. Some testing will be needed, of course, but I think he'll be 4-of in my deck; again, I play Black as the strong color, so I can see difference in perspective.
I really disagree with Noble Heirarch. I think it is too slow, and none of the mana-colors it produces are relevant to me. Again, your milage may vary.
I've been sick for the last 2 weeks, no results. Will post updated decklist after tomorrow (hopefully people haven't started going home for Christmas yet and we get enough for a tourney).
It isn't just exalted. It + ESG lets me beatdown regular damage for the win if I NEED to. It also helps me mana fix. The exalted is just a HUGE +!
We do have different lists, but I feel that your list has a hard time comboing to chain pumps. You may get creatures out that are a tad better (e.g. - crusader) and disrupt them a bit, but your clock is way slower than G/b. Each strategy is viable, but you let them drop answers if you're too slow.
I am attempting to trade 'combo' for slightly better reliability. I think the 1-CMC disruption spells are super important. It's a great T1 play, either straight-up, or Ritual + Duress + 2-CMC creature.
I am still thinking about my list for tonight, but I am likely going to take out Eternal Witness + Pendelhaven (Pendelhaven is land #18), and add 3 Sign In Blood. Then I may run 4 Duress and 3 Plunge Into Darkness, or 3 Duress/4 Plunge, I am not certain yet.
All that being said...I have been pondering the Green-splash-Black direction that you are going and I like it. I just am wary of no draw, and no dig; Plunge Into Darkness has just been fantastic for me.
But it does have dig...fantastic dig in the form of Sylvan Library. I've just chosen not to use it to make the deck faster and more explosive. My old list had library in it as a 3 of and it was pretty consistent, but a bit slower than the current form. I'm sure great infectors will come out...just have to realize that stifling the pump for a slightly better infect dude may be the wrong move. You can even keep your control in a green splashing black build and run fetches/4bayou/1 swamp.
It is really going to depend on the quality/color of the Infect creatures in MBS and 'Action' (go go New Phyrexia) to see where Infect goes.
Agreed. The thing about guile is that it doesn't give you QUANTITY. It does play better with fetches though!
5 Swamp
1 Misty rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
4 Bayou
5 Forest
4 Verdant catacombs
4 Vector Asp
4 Plague Stinger
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Blight Mamba
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Berserk
4 Rouse
4 Invigorate
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal therapy
SB
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
2 Chalice of the Void
4 Engineered plague
2 Choke
There are a few other "free" spells I've been looking at, but as of now, I don't think that they fit:
Bounty of the Hunt
Dark triumph
Right now the deck is extremely fast. Playing free spells are definately the way to go. I had tried rancor, but I just didn't like it. I also think that some sort of disruption is a must, hence the thoughtseize and therapy.
lost 1-2 vs CounterTop: Rough matchup, hand disruption was key to knowing what kind of counters he was holding pre-Counterbalance. Rancor draws a counter almost every time. Would have won this 2-0 but for a lucky Counterbalance for 3 that countered my rats to finish.
lost 0-2 vs Show-And-Tell: Emrakul hurts, HiveMind/Pact hurts. I had nothing for this in the sideboard except 1 extra duress, the Mindbreak Traps were useless to side in for this combo.
lost 0-2 vs Goblins: Mana flood in game 1. Game 2 went better; Ichorclaw is a beast, but 2 gempalms later and I was trading creature-for-creature, which is a losing strategy against goblins. Didn't find Engineered Plague fast enough and the inevitable was soon to follow.
Thoughts: I'm going to continue thinking about this deck, and working on getting the Berserks, but I'm putting it mostly on pause for now. I ate 2 Swords, and 5 Gempalms last night, and am really looking forward to that Crusader. Infect needs more/better creatures. Crusader will help, but another CMC <= 3 Infect critter, ideally with a good ETB effect would really help out.
Also...engineered plague in your side? hardly seems worth it. If you're worried about removal run avoid fate alongside vines.
A resolved Emrakul is likely game-over for us, due to Annihilator 6. You need to either have 2 creatures down and the win in hand, or it's all over but the face-beating. The biggest issue vs the Show-N-Tell combo is that I was totally unprepared for it. My meta usually has Blecher/ANT as the combo, both of which I have 7 cards against (4 Duress/Thoughtsieze, 3 Mindbreak Trap).
I don't run vines, too hard to get GG in my build. Avoid Fate doesn't help at all vs. goblins as you will generally be getting burned by a cycled gempalm.
I think the biggest issue is that the deck requires creatures to resolve, swing, and connect...and there's only 16 Infect creatures worth running. I'm hoping to have 24 or so after MBS, and at that point I am thinking that an Aether Vial build could be the way to go. If that becomes the case, I would drop hand-disruption to sideboard, and make Turn1 either a Dark Ritual play, or Aether Vial. That is heavily dependent on the kind of Infect creatures, though.
Do you run Elvish Spirit Guide and Lotus Petal? You should be able to Turn 1 play a 2-drop infect guy every game. It's not actually THAT often that they have the Force if you're on the play. You will have to watch out for Daze, though.
Sounds like you're REALLY diluting the deck...
The landbase is small, and has no secondary function (IE. no man-lands, no land tricks, no accel). You will likely see 3, maybe 4 lands per game. Any more, and you are getting flooded, any less and you are screwed. This puts you in double-jeopardy against any kind of control; you must play competently to draw-out counterspells to protect your real pump, while at the same time, you lose the mana, and card-advantage war against the control player.
Against any kind of creature-based aggro deck, you will quickly get overwhelmed and out-gunned. Against combo, you have to race. They have tutor, ponder, Orim's Chant, etc to buy time, and search for missing pieces Infect has nothing. Against anything packing burn, you are toast.
This is essentially a creature-combo deck, with no card draw, no scry, no tutor, and no dig...also only 16 creatures, none of which have any interaction with each-other.
There's decks that require aggressive mullaganing, and then there's just unstable decks. This is the latter. It is a deck that needs a turn-1 creature, and there aren't any 1-drop creatures. A single swords will lose you a game, a naturalize, a counterspell, any burn, a fat-flying-blocker, and these are commonplace. It's too fragile, and it doesn't have the speed, consistency, or ability to fetch missing pieces like other combo decks.
Infect needs more, and better creatures to be competitive in Legacy.