Not only would stoneforge get one of our key cards around counterspells, but it would let us do it at instant speed for some insane combat tricks (stoneforge can put it into play as an instant then BB to attach skullclamp at an instant).
I cannot go back to Disciple. I can't play a card that is focused on me losing creatures rather than gaining them, it goes against the will of the rest of the deck (though I can and will admit, Disciple is a great card). It goes from a waste of mana to a bomb once we get a ravager out, but until then it is a completely idle threat.
You should not build an aggro deck around a card that is based on LOSING board position.
It is like planning a blitz in football (american) but assigning half your guys to cover recievers. It is a conflict of interest that has, until now, made sense.
Unless you are making the gamewinning kill, sacrificing things to ravager (and disciple in turn) is a LOSS OF BOARD PRESENCE. Ravager is scarily susceptible to removal, and placing all of those cards into one or two pieces on the board is terrible strategy, because your opponents 1for1 removal spell suddenly becomes a 5for1.
The only times I will ever put anything into a ravager are:
when said artifact is on its way to the grave
when Ravager is/has lethal damage on it
as a combat trick to destroy blockers otherwise impossible to destroy
You should never sacrifice things to ravager for no reason, even if you have no cards in hand and the opponent has no blockers.
Anyways, I will write about Canonist later.
Don't think of Disciple as you trying to lose board position. Think of it as if you're opponent tries to gain board position he will have to sacrifice a lot of his life. People will have to think twice about playing cards such as Pernicious Deed, Shattering Spree, Wrath of God/Day of Judgement, Armageddon on you. I've won games before because if my opponent would attack me with his Emrakul I would get to sacrifice 6 artifacts and win.
Also I always sacrifice things to Ravager. I play 4 Mox and 4 Drum so any extra I have usually go to Ravager. My mana base also consists of white for Cannonist and red for Galvanic Blast, neither of which are in my main deck so those lands are free to go to Ravager. I agree Ravager isn't as good as he used to be but he is still a great card and I believe both him and Disciple both fit in this deck still.
Mystic wouldn't be a bad idea for getting useful stuff like jitte and cranial plating. three seems like the max i would run though. fetching equipment seems great in all but other than grabbing those two it seems like its use is limited. I would throw in a basilisk collar as well for utility sake but doesn't improve the how limited stoneforge mystic would be.
Since were on the subject, i've long speculated about putting in 4 bonesplitter in the deck so you can give a boost to thopter as well as anything else.
mentioning mystic bring up thoughts about quest for the holy relic as well. type 2's certainly using it with there ornithopters and memnites in an equipment deck (cards we use as well.). for 1 white it wouldn't be hard to squeeze into this deck as well as the fact that casting a lot of creatures already is this deck's business plan.
dropping an argentum armor would be pretty nifty. (weather its uber ground breaking has yet to be tested.)
least thats my take on the ideas.
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[color=gray]Not only would stoneforge get one of our key cards around counterspells, but it would let us do it at instant speed for some insane combat tricks
There's also the added benefit that if Mystic isn't removed, all equipment that we draw later on would also be uncounterable. It's rare for me to get double black because wastelands are quite prevalent in my meta. But even without combat tricks, plating is deadly.
Mystic wouldn't be a bad idea for getting useful stuff like jitte and cranial plating. three seems like the max i would run though. fetching equipment seems great in all but other than grabbing those two it seems like its use is limited. I would throw in a basilisk collar as well for utility sake but doesn't improve the how limited stoneforge mystic would be.
Since were on the subject, i've long speculated about putting in 4 bonesplitter in the deck so you can give a boost to thopter as well as anything else.
Not sure if I'm the only one here who has experienced this particular situation many times..., it's mid-game, both me and opponent are at single digit life. Both of us are in top-deck mode. But he/she is at an advantage in board position because my Memnites, Thopters and Frogmites don't even have a prayer on resisting against goyfs, wild mongrel, or tombstalker. At that point of the game, my wish would be to topdeck a plating or burn. The equipment gives my outclassed 1/1's, 0/2's and 2/2's a better chance in the damage race, or even finish off an attacking goyf (headbutt it to death? :3).
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that plating helps. And having additional chances of getting it mid-game (3 mystics), might spell the difference between winning and losing.
Basilisk Collar also seems nice. Have no more room in my deck for it though...
memnite is a staple for this deck now as much as anything. it replaced arcbound worker which was a 1/1 that wasn't free. the point of memnite in affinity isn't its body. the point is that it is a free artifact that can ping on an empty board even without a plating (unlike thopter) and that it can help enable metalcraft/frogmite on turn 1.
while i don't disagree with running DotV, running ancient tomb is a different matter. it isn't an artifact, doesn't help with the color requirements of the deck, and plainly isn't needed. since mox opal and memnite came out, a ravager or plating on turn 1 isn't uncommon. there's no need to run a card with little synergy with the rest of the deck for that.
i'm really at a loss for words on how to answer this nicely. ravager is a staple in RAVAGER affinity. MoE and plating are just alternate win conditions to spread the kill conditions around. metalcraft isn't even a concern because this deck runs 40-50 artifacts. the way you described it also tells me that you don't know how to use ravager properly, else you wouldn't be viewing it as a hindrance to the rest of the deck. ravager is an even greater threat in multiples. he is a 4 of in affinity, no questions asked.
You guys act like its sacrilegious to limit the amount of ravagers. When I draw into more than one, they do little for me. They become dead 2 mana 1/1's. If you wanna rely on a Disciple of the Vault win, then run 4 of. But the game is changing now with Mox Opal and Galvanic Blast, and Master of Etherium is making that even more deadly, allowing all your collected toys to add up for more pain, which also works in conjunction with Cranial Plating.
On top of that, Ancient Tomb, while not an artifact land, gives you 2, which help to either be a turn one plating, or even a turn two equipped plating, given you draw into any other land. It also helps you drop Master of Etherium quicker, which is very nice because he pumps up your other attackers, giving you even more advantage. In fact, drawing into multiple Master of Etheriums and/or Cranial Platings rarely leads to a bad position if you can consistently play them. In fact, it even allows you to make quicker use of Soul's Fire, which can be particularly brutal as your stuff add up and you have a creature with a plating or a MoE (or God forbid, both!).
I'm not saying cut Ravager, but Ravager has grown to be a bit of a passenger to his own deck because he is bent on eating up your resources to win, and that can easily be stifled. If you just keep laying down toys that make your other cards more powerful, it just makes sense. It makes your Galvanic Blasts easier to rip and your Thoughtcasts easier to play.
I'll have to test Memnite, but as speculation, it just looks like an obvious play that really won't pan out. I don't run Phyrexian Walker because I can't attack with it. The again, Memnite can attack, but it doesn't have the evasion that an Ornithopter has. Since Frogmite is already easy to play, a turn one Memnite usually does nothing but die before it can sneak in much extra damage. But hell, I could be wrong.
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do you not know how to use a ravager dude? with two of them on the field, the second "useless" one is AT LEAST a chump blocker that will give the first +2/+2 possibly killing one or two creatures in the process. that is the WORST he gets.
You guys act like its sacrilegious to limit the amount of ravagers. When I draw into more than one, they do little for me. They become dead 2 mana 1/1's. If you wanna rely on a Disciple of the Vault win, then run 4 of. But the game is changing now with Mox Opal and Galvanic Blast, and Master of Etherium is making that even more deadly, allowing all your collected toys to add up for more pain, which also works in conjunction with Cranial Plating.
Seriously? Two Ravagers being redundant? Just read what 6coltbolt said. Couldn't have put it better myself.
On top of that, Ancient Tomb, while not an artifact land, gives you 2, which help to either be a turn one plating, or even a turn two equipped plating, given you draw into any other land. It also helps you drop Master of Etherium quicker, which is very nice because he pumps up your other attackers, giving you even more advantage. In fact, drawing into multiple Master of Etheriums and/or Cranial Platings rarely leads to a bad position if you can consistently play them. In fact, it even allows you to make quicker use of Soul's Fire, which can be particularly brutal as your stuff add up and you have a creature with a plating or a MoE (or God forbid, both!).
First of all, T1 Plating can also be achieved with Mox Opal, any 0 drop, and any artifact land. That's 4 artifacts out on T1, which means you'll be swinging in for at least 4 on T2. An Ancient Tomb would leave you with it and a Plating, and at 18 life. That's horrible board development.
Also, Soul's Fire SUCKS in Affinity. I would play Fling over it all day every day.
I'm not saying cut Ravager, but Ravager has grown to be a bit of a passenger to his own deck because he is bent on eating up your resources to win, and that can easily be stifled. If you just keep laying down toys that make your other cards more powerful, it just makes sense. It makes your Galvanic Blasts easier to rip and your Thoughtcasts easier to play.
Vader put it best in his post:
Quote from Vader »
The only times I will ever put anything into a ravager are:
when said artifact is on its way to the grave
when Ravager is/has lethal damage on it
as a combat trick to destroy blockers otherwise impossible to destroy
Galvanic Blast/Thoughtcast only require 3/4 artifacts in play, respectively, to maximize their usefulness, both of which are rather easy to achieve in a deck with 40-50 artifacts. We're not going to be stupid and sacrifice to stuff to put us below 3/4 artifacts when we have Blast/Cast in hand.
I'll have to test Memnite, but as speculation, it just looks like an obvious play that really won't pan out. I don't run Phyrexian Walker because I can't attack with it. The again, Memnite can attack, but it doesn't have the evasion that an Ornithopter has. Since Frogmite is already easy to play, a turn one Memnite usually does nothing but die before it can sneak in much extra damage. But hell, I could be wrong.
Memnite is not about getting the 1 point of damage in. The point of Memnite is to makes it easier to have an active Mox Opal on T1. Memnite can always be played on T1, regardless of whatever else is your hand, while Frogmite is. You said it yourself: this deck is moving towards the use of Mox Opal, and everything should be done to make it optimal.
On top of that, Ancient Tomb, while not an artifact land, gives you 2, which help to either be a turn one plating, or even a turn two equipped plating, given you draw into any other land. It also helps you drop Master of Etherium quicker, which is very nice because he pumps up your other attackers, giving you even more advantage.
Sorry to say but Ancient Tomb is not good for the deck. You're going to give Zoo decks and Burn decks that you'll face in tournaments an easier time, because your land will shock you on it's own.
There's another way (as said already by Avatar of Light), to achieve turn one plating without losing life.
i'm sorry but it's getting really tiresome to see people advocating to remove the core cards of this deck or even lessen them in number. running less than 4 ravagers IS sacrilegious. learn how to use them with the rest of the deck if you can't see why.
people keep evaluating cards based on their individual quality. affinity is all about synergy. what's in the rest of your deck will dictate how good or bad the card you're evaluating is. seriously, this is a lesson that everyone in this thread needs to learn before making statements like "ravager is not good in multiples."
the equipment route is nice but too slow. you will always lose to more efficient aggro decks that can even handle their equipments better like rock variants or zoo. the greatest strengths of affinity are synergy and speed.
can the deck support glimpse of nature? vs or in addition to thoughtcast? you can glimpse faster then you can thoughtcast and easily draw two cards. too ba theres not a glimpse for artifacts, which would obviously be insane.
can the deck support glimpse of nature? vs or in addition to thoughtcast? you can glimpse faster then you can thoughtcast and easily draw two cards. too ba theres not a glimpse for artifacts, which would obviously be insane.
My thoughts on Glimpse is that if you don't draw it in your opening hand, it's a dead card. The whole point of affinity is to dump out your hand as quick as possible. We can't afford to hold onto creatures simply for hoping to Glimpse draw our deck.
It's a lot better card drawing engine than Thoughtcast in some respect, but I feel like it doesn't have much synergy to the deck to warrant a swap.
My thoughts on Glimpse is that if you don't draw it in your opening hand, it's a dead card. The whole point of affinity is to dump out your hand as quick as possible. We can't afford to hold onto creatures simply for hoping to Glimpse draw our deck.
It's a lot better card drawing engine than Thoughtcast in some respect, but I feel like it doesn't have much synergy to the deck to warrant a swap.
i hear ya, but i could make hands mulled for other reasons recover faster. maybe a 3 count of them in addition to thoughtcast. also, being in topdeck mode turn 2 kinda blows. at best you have 2-3 mana sources and 3-4 small threats, with all your cards visible. with glimpse, i feel we can cut up to two lands, and perhaps a thought cast or the 4th MoE in some builds. i really dont care for Moe myself. i think enforcer may be superior in a glimpse build.
I have played Affinity since it was t2 and I have since then played it in legacy as well. And I have tested pretty much everything that looked like it could be playable in the deck. But every single time I just came back to the mirrodin standard list. Only Springleaf drum, MoE, and now Galvanic and opal are playable in the Aggro Affinity list (I don't count Tempered Steel or Glimpse of Nature approaches). It is only an evidence of ignorance to claim that cards like ravager and Disciple can be cut. People who claim that can only describe why they think those cards could be bad in THEORY. PLAY the deck! And then tell me how often you lost because of 'multiple ravagers'. Or tell me how often Disciple won you games on his own, then how often you lost because Disciple was an 'oh-so-bad and slow useless non-artifact 1/1'. I could cut Master of Etherium all day long and the deck would only lose a bit of power. But it is impossible to cut Affinity creatures, artifact lands, CMC 0 creatures, Disciple and Ravager.
Same goes for things like Ancient Tomb. If you knew what the bility Affinity actually does and how that card would perform in PRACTISE, not in theory, you would know that the 1 mana of an artifact land does accelerate you much more that the 2 mana from a non-articact land.
New cards and ideas always look flashy but with few exceptions they just don't fit into this deck. As soon as you start looking for card quality, like Stoneforge mystic instead of synergy, you're on the wrong way.
Agreed on all points. Would it be possible to see your current list, Izor? Here's my current list:
I really like the fact that I now have more access to flyers, and the lifegain from the Foundry has also saved me quite a few times. I may end up switching back to Disciples/Citadels instead of Overseer/Nexus since Thopter Sword + DoTV = game.
Sure. Although I don't really have to post the list, because it's basically your list with:
-1 Darksteel Citadel, -1 MoE, +1 Springleaf Drum, +1 Myr Enforcer.
Should play out pretty much the same.
I do like the 4th Drum since we are running 8 0cc cards. The 3rd Enforcer looks good too. I'll give these changes a try.
Including the Thopter Foundry-Steel Overseer synergy is quite strong. It's of course an approach that sacrifices early game pressure in order to gain mid- to late game board presence. I've not played it in a tournament myself yet, but I know of a similar list that had some tournament success. That list didn't run Sword of the Meek though. Without a way to tutor it up and with only 4 draw fixers, it will be really hard to get the combo going.
The Thopter/Sword combo isn't the focal point of the deck though. It's sort of just their to add a bit of mid-to-late game punch. The Foundry itself works fine on its own with MoE and Overseer. The times that I do get the Sword is just gravy.
steel overseer being used over master of etherium would get around the issue of thopters being too big to trigger sword of the meek combo.
several posts back we were talking about potential of thopter combo because of its flyer swarm potential and an additional synergy with disciple.
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steel overseer being used over master of etherium would get around the issue of thopters being too big to trigger sword of the meek combo.
several posts back we were talking about potential of thopter combo because of its flyer swarm potential and an additional synergy with disciple.
I know that MoE doesn't exactly work well with the Thopter/Sword combo, but with just MoE and Foundry in play, I'm turning useless artifacts into 2/2 flyers and 1 life. If I do run into that problem of having MoE in play and the ability to combo out, I can always sacrifice the MoE to the Foundry. I will test Disciples in place of MoE though to see how it works out.
i'm sorry but it's getting really tiresome to see people advocating to remove the core cards of this deck or even lessen them in number. running less than 4 ravagers IS sacrilegious. learn how to use them with the rest of the deck if you can't see why.
people keep evaluating cards based on their individual quality. affinity is all about synergy. what's in the rest of your deck will dictate how good or bad the card you're evaluating is. seriously, this is a lesson that everyone in this thread needs to learn before making statements like "ravager is not good in multiples."
the equipment route is nice but too slow. you will always lose to more efficient aggro decks that can even handle their equipments better like rock variants or zoo. the greatest strengths of affinity are synergy and speed.
But damn, just consider suggestions, man. That's how decks grow. A big part of why decks don't grow is this stagnant mentality that it simply will not work. This is how Affinity gets pigeon-holed into "one list to rule them all" type idiocy. This is all theory, let's suggest theories backed by evidence, but since when has it become tiresome to sift through suggestions? In my testing, Ancient Tomb has significantly helped me because while Thoughtcast, Frogmite and the occasional Myr Enforcer have Affinity, the odd part is... very little else Affinity is totally necessary.
Therefore, there are some cards you want to play ASAP, like Cranial Plating and Master of Etherium. I think some people are just simply married to the idea of Arcbound Ravager, and sure I'll admit I've understated his importance, but sometimes you have to give up the ghost. Now that Affinity is a real easy threat to answer, and there are plenty of ways to simply wreck it, its numbers must rack up faster.
How often can you not get Mox Opal online if you've already got Memnites and Ornithopters and other things you can play through the Ancient Tomb anyway?
I think these ideas get rejected because they haven't been proven, but that doesn't mean they're wrong. Hell, it doesn't mean they're right, and I'm not totally sure why I'm even posting this because as soon as I hit Submit Reply, someone out there will have an aneurysm and I apologize ahead of time, but within testing that I've tried, it can occasionally lubricate your machine to get more mana out that you may otherwise have trouble achieving.
Whatever, you guys take it more seriously, so I guess you have the license to be crotchety bastards about suggesting tinkering with the amount of "key" cards. Maybe one day I can reach this level of enlightenment where I refuse the thought that may even somehow slightly challenge all that I understand about a deck in a card game.
Plus, the equipment idea is slow and counter-intuitive but you guys throw softballs at people who suggest adding that to Affinity. Equipment beyond Cranial Plating doesn't fit into Affinity, and tutoring a Cranial Plating through Stoneforge Mystic instead of something faster like Steelshaper's Gift is obscene that you would even encourage how it's a decent idea. But I liked the suggestion and didn't have the wherewithal to necessarily disprove it because I haven't tested it and like the thrust of the idea. Who knows, it may even work out.
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I think the people who discount any possible change to the deck are the real problem in the thread.
Whether or not I agree with removing Ravager/Disciple or any other card for that matter isn't really the point, it's just sad to see people not even bother to test out changes. Maybe they're worse, but the deck will never evolve into something better without trial and error.
Let's be honest, Affinity isn't exactly a stellar Legacy deck. So I think it's clear that the deck should change in some shape or form. Maybe it's just trying to be faster like recent lists have been (Memnite, Mox Opal, Galvanic Blast, Shrapnel Blast... basically extra speed and reach). That doesn't mean that a deck trying to interact with your opponent more with cards like Vedalken Certarch, Thopter Foundry, and a higher blue count for FoW is bad.
Stoneforge Mystic - have been testing Stoneforge Mystic for a few days against people on my playgroup (put 3 in my deck replacing 3 Disciples). Mystic is slow, I admit. The only time that I'm glad to to have 3 mystics in my deck is against Merfolk, because they have to counter it, or I'll be able to cast the plating using the mystic's ability. Against my friend's Eva Green deck, she duress + extirpate the plating on her turn (ugh! -_-). When playing against any deck with targeted discard, it's best to cast the plating on the same turn that you tutored for it.
Disciple - the reason I want to replace him is because he rarely meets ravager on the battlefield anymore. It's either ravager has already been killed, or disciple gets killed before I can cast a ravager. The games where I was able to make opponent lose a lot of life using Discpile still happen, but they are few. I have no intention to have less than 4 Ravagers, but I really want to find a replacement for Disciple.
I think these ideas get rejected because they haven't been proven, but that doesn't mean they're wrong. Hell, it doesn't mean they're right, and I'm not totally sure why I'm even posting this because as soon as I hit Submit Reply, someone out there will have an aneurysm and I apologize ahead of time, but within testing that I've tried, it can occasionally lubricate your machine to get more mana out that you may otherwise have trouble achieving.
Ok, I apologize for my opinion yesterday. When I saw the 2 damage from the Ancient Tomb that you're using, I thought that the tomb will cause auto-lose situations against Zoo decks and Burn decks (both are largely played in my meta). Well, if you say that it works in your testing, then I believe it now. Your play area probably has only has few decks with a lot of burn.
On Ethersworn canonist; people are not giving her the credit she deserves. Canonist is not just a sideboard card to use against combo, at least not in affinity. Canonist is a 2/2 body that happens to be an artifact and whom happens to morph the game for your opponent.
I can honestly say that the only time canonist is NOT a threat is against the mirror, but honestly how many people run around with affinity now-a-days?
Wit E.C. on the board, opponents have to start thinking and being smart with what they play, and how they play it. For example, the opponent has in their hand 1 counterspell, 1 instant speed removal, 1 sorceries speed removal, 1 creature, and 1 sorcery speed cantrip. What canonist has done is forced the opponent to A) Choose between dropping a threat their turn, using a sorcery speed removal, or cantripping B) On our turn, they can either counter a spell or answer one of our threats already on the board.
T1(ours) - we play as usual (memnite, thopter, mox, springleaf drum, frogmite, w/e)
T1(opponents)
T2 - Depending on the threats we have in hand (cranial plating? moe? ravager?) and what the opponent did their last turn, we decide what we should spend our mana on. For instance, if the opponent used ponder, thoughtseize, basking rootwala, wild nacatl, kird ape, goblin lackey and SO MANY other things, I would probably make canonist a priority over a ravager or MOE.
T2(opponents) - With E.C. on the field the opponent is now severely restrained in what they can do. They look at the board and they see our 2 artifact lands, 2 0 cast arti creatures and a frogmite. They have there one measly spell that the played on their first turn (duress, nacatl, what have you). They are in a bad position. If they thoughtseize you to see what you have in your hand and to reduce the hurt from the next turns attack then they cannot lay a creature. They can't cantrip (they can, but it will kill them if they do, affinity needs to be answered), they cant get any engines going (life from the loam, etc with the exception of SDT).
T3(ours) - we smile triumpantly as the opponent played their single 2drop card (tarmogoyf, BoB, w/e). With E.C. in play we know that the oppoent can counter one spell max this turn, so at least one of the cards we have in hand will hit the battlefield, and also the opponent is going to have to choose between a counter spell or a swords to plowshares. Knowing this, we drop out cranial plating knowing full well that the opponent will need to counter it or lose in two turns. When they do we drop MOE and proceed to beat them with out 0 cost artifacts.
Point being from all of this is that Canonist is such an amazing card that I want more in my main deck! Canonist is a card that applies EXACTLY the kind of pressure we want in affinity. Affinity empties our hand quickly and establishes board dominance as early as T1, canonist makes sure that an opponent will never be able to catch up to our level, nor will they ever be able to remove or deny enough to stop us. Added bonus is that canonist blatantly hoses several top tier decks (vengvine and storm).
Edit: And no, canonist will not throw off our curve or slow us down. The core of affinity will always be fast and the 12 or so cards we play with do not drastically effect the core.
Edit edit: The only downside I have found with canonist is the fact that sometimes the mana base cannot support her. I have had hands on multiple occasions where I have no mox no drum but just an insanely fast hand with great furnace or seat of the synod. I keep, I go ape ☺☺☺☺ T1, then I draw a Canonist T2 and I facepalm.
On a side note, has their been any announcements about the AFFINITY ability for mirrodin besieged? I would lovelovelovelove some new free toys!
I think the people who discount any possible change to the deck are the real problem in the thread.
Whether or not I agree with removing Ravager/Disciple or any other card for that matter isn't really the point, it's just sad to see people not even bother to test out changes. Maybe they're worse, but the deck will never evolve into something better without trial and error.
Let's be honest, Affinity isn't exactly a stellar Legacy deck. So I think it's clear that the deck should change in some shape or form. Maybe it's just trying to be faster like recent lists have been (Memnite, Mox Opal, Galvanic Blast, Shrapnel Blast... basically extra speed and reach). That doesn't mean that a deck trying to interact with your opponent more with cards like Vedalken Certarch, Thopter Foundry, and a higher blue count for FoW is bad.
the people that suggest things need to be able to take criticisms as well. and i do not agree with what you said. we're not simply discounting everything suggested with rigidity and assumptions. i've personally been playing affinity since mirrodin standard and have placed in a fair share of mirrodin standard and extended/legacy tournaments with it. over the years i've playtested every card suggested here, yes even cetrarch and stoneforge mystic. i've playtested the deck without ravagers, without disciples, without enforcers, etc.
so let me turn the tables on your argument. instead of assuming that we're just rejecting card suggestions based on The One list that we think is best, make your arguments for the cards you suggest more convincing. write out their advantages/disadvantages, keeping in mind that affinity is a deck about synergy, not individual card quality. what match-ups do they improve compared to the usual list? what match-ups do they make worse? there has to be more than just fancy 1 in 10 scenarios that the card would give the deck.
i won't deny that i consider "fast affinity" to be the most powerful and consistent variation of affinity at the moment. prove me wrong. or at the very least, provide an in depth enough analysis to make the new suggestions worth considering.
For the record, I am only trying to stimulate some conversation when I mention things like stoneforge.
Conversation about new and interesting cards is never a bad thing, and sometimes it can lead to really great things! No one should get upset or be harsh or anything like that.
On Ethersworn canonist; people are not giving her the credit she deserves. Canonist is not just a sideboard card to use against combo, at least not in affinity. Canonist is a 2/2 body that happens to be an artifact and whom happens to morph the game for your opponent.
I can honestly say that the only time canonist is NOT a threat is against the mirror, but honestly how many people run around with affinity now-a-days?
Wit E.C. on the board, opponents have to start thinking and being smart with what they play, and how they play it. For example, the opponent has in their hand 1 counterspell, 1 instant speed removal, 1 sorceries speed removal, 1 creature, and 1 sorcery speed cantrip. What canonist has done is forced the opponent to A) Choose between dropping a threat their turn, using a sorcery speed removal, or cantripping B) On our turn, they can either counter a spell or answer one of our threats already on the board.
T1(ours) - we play as usual (memnite, thopter, mox, springleaf drum, frogmite, w/e)
T1(opponents)
T2 - Depending on the threats we have in hand (cranial plating? moe? ravager?) and what the opponent did their last turn, we decide what we should spend our mana on. For instance, if the opponent used ponder, thoughtseize, basking rootwala, wild nacatl, kird ape, goblin lackey and SO MANY other things, I would probably make canonist a priority over a ravager or MOE.
T2(opponents) - With E.C. on the field the opponent is now severely restrained in what they can do. They look at the board and they see our 2 artifact lands, 2 0 cast arti creatures and a frogmite. They have there one measly spell that the played on their first turn (duress, nacatl, what have you). They are in a bad position. If they thoughtseize you to see what you have in your hand and to reduce the hurt from the next turns attack then they cannot lay a creature. They can't cantrip (they can, but it will kill them if they do, affinity needs to be answered), they cant get any engines going (life from the loam, etc with the exception of SDT).
T3(ours) - we smile triumpantly as the opponent played their single 2drop card (tarmogoyf, BoB, w/e). With E.C. in play we know that the oppoent can counter one spell max this turn, so at least one of the cards we have in hand will hit the battlefield, and also the opponent is going to have to choose between a counter spell or a swords to plowshares. Knowing this, we drop out cranial plating knowing full well that the opponent will need to counter it or lose in two turns. When they do we drop MOE and proceed to beat them with out 0 cost artifacts.
Point being from all of this is that Canonist is such an amazing card that I want more in my main deck! Canonist is a card that applies EXACTLY the kind of pressure we want in affinity. Affinity empties our hand quickly and establishes board dominance as early as T1, canonist makes sure that an opponent will never be able to catch up to our level, nor will they ever be able to remove or deny enough to stop us. Added bonus is that canonist blatantly hoses several top tier decks (vengvine and storm).
Edit: And no, canonist will not throw off our curve or slow us down. The core of affinity will always be fast and the 12 or so cards we play with do not drastically effect the core.
Edit edit: The only downside I have found with canonist is the fact that sometimes the mana base cannot support her. I have had hands on multiple occasions where I have no mox no drum but just an insanely fast hand with great furnace or seat of the synod. I keep, I go ape ☺☺☺☺ T1, then I draw a Canonist T2 and I facepalm.
On a side note, has their been any announcements about the AFFINITY ability for mirrodin besieged? I would lovelovelovelove some new free toys!
i haven't played canonist main deck since before scars. maybe it's time to try it again with the new cards and the new meta. i'll let you know how it goes.
if i remember correctly, there was a whole article on the wizards site when scars first came out about how big a mistake the affinity mechanic was because of its power level. so i doubt it will be used again anytime soon. on the other hand, metalcraft is just fine for us, as proven by opal and galvanic blast.
Don't think of Disciple as you trying to lose board position. Think of it as if you're opponent tries to gain board position he will have to sacrifice a lot of his life. People will have to think twice about playing cards such as Pernicious Deed, Shattering Spree, Wrath of God/Day of Judgement, Armageddon on you. I've won games before because if my opponent would attack me with his Emrakul I would get to sacrifice 6 artifacts and win.
Also I always sacrifice things to Ravager. I play 4 Mox and 4 Drum so any extra I have usually go to Ravager. My mana base also consists of white for Cannonist and red for Galvanic Blast, neither of which are in my main deck so those lands are free to go to Ravager. I agree Ravager isn't as good as he used to be but he is still a great card and I believe both him and Disciple both fit in this deck still.
Mystic wouldn't be a bad idea for getting useful stuff like jitte and cranial plating. three seems like the max i would run though. fetching equipment seems great in all but other than grabbing those two it seems like its use is limited. I would throw in a basilisk collar as well for utility sake but doesn't improve the how limited stoneforge mystic would be.
Since were on the subject, i've long speculated about putting in 4 bonesplitter in the deck so you can give a boost to thopter as well as anything else.
mentioning mystic bring up thoughts about quest for the holy relic as well. type 2's certainly using it with there ornithopters and memnites in an equipment deck (cards we use as well.). for 1 white it wouldn't be hard to squeeze into this deck as well as the fact that casting a lot of creatures already is this deck's business plan.
dropping an argentum armor would be pretty nifty. (weather its uber ground breaking has yet to be tested.)
least thats my take on the ideas.
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There's also the added benefit that if Mystic isn't removed, all equipment that we draw later on would also be uncounterable. It's rare for me to get double black because wastelands are quite prevalent in my meta. But even without combat tricks, plating is deadly.
Not sure if I'm the only one here who has experienced this particular situation many times..., it's mid-game, both me and opponent are at single digit life. Both of us are in top-deck mode. But he/she is at an advantage in board position because my Memnites, Thopters and Frogmites don't even have a prayer on resisting against goyfs, wild mongrel, or tombstalker. At that point of the game, my wish would be to topdeck a plating or burn. The equipment gives my outclassed 1/1's, 0/2's and 2/2's a better chance in the damage race, or even finish off an attacking goyf (headbutt it to death? :3).
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that plating helps. And having additional chances of getting it mid-game (3 mystics), might spell the difference between winning and losing.
Basilisk Collar also seems nice. Have no more room in my deck for it though...
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You guys act like its sacrilegious to limit the amount of ravagers. When I draw into more than one, they do little for me. They become dead 2 mana 1/1's. If you wanna rely on a Disciple of the Vault win, then run 4 of. But the game is changing now with Mox Opal and Galvanic Blast, and Master of Etherium is making that even more deadly, allowing all your collected toys to add up for more pain, which also works in conjunction with Cranial Plating.
On top of that, Ancient Tomb, while not an artifact land, gives you 2, which help to either be a turn one plating, or even a turn two equipped plating, given you draw into any other land. It also helps you drop Master of Etherium quicker, which is very nice because he pumps up your other attackers, giving you even more advantage. In fact, drawing into multiple Master of Etheriums and/or Cranial Platings rarely leads to a bad position if you can consistently play them. In fact, it even allows you to make quicker use of Soul's Fire, which can be particularly brutal as your stuff add up and you have a creature with a plating or a MoE (or God forbid, both!).
I'm not saying cut Ravager, but Ravager has grown to be a bit of a passenger to his own deck because he is bent on eating up your resources to win, and that can easily be stifled. If you just keep laying down toys that make your other cards more powerful, it just makes sense. It makes your Galvanic Blasts easier to rip and your Thoughtcasts easier to play.
I'll have to test Memnite, but as speculation, it just looks like an obvious play that really won't pan out. I don't run Phyrexian Walker because I can't attack with it. The again, Memnite can attack, but it doesn't have the evasion that an Ornithopter has. Since Frogmite is already easy to play, a turn one Memnite usually does nothing but die before it can sneak in much extra damage. But hell, I could be wrong.
B Infect
BW Death & Taxes
UBR Affinity
R Burn
UBR Sac Land Tendrils
UBRG Oops, All Spells
WUG Phelddagrif
GGG Omnath, Locus of Mana
BBB Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
RRR Ashling, the Pilgrim
BBW Teysa, Scion of Orzhov
UUU Talrand, Sky Summoner
UUB Vela the Night-Clad
GGB Vhati il-Dal
RUW Ruhan of the Fomori
Seriously? Two Ravagers being redundant? Just read what 6coltbolt said. Couldn't have put it better myself.
First of all, T1 Plating can also be achieved with Mox Opal, any 0 drop, and any artifact land. That's 4 artifacts out on T1, which means you'll be swinging in for at least 4 on T2. An Ancient Tomb would leave you with it and a Plating, and at 18 life. That's horrible board development.
Also, Soul's Fire SUCKS in Affinity. I would play Fling over it all day every day.
Vader put it best in his post:
Galvanic Blast/Thoughtcast only require 3/4 artifacts in play, respectively, to maximize their usefulness, both of which are rather easy to achieve in a deck with 40-50 artifacts. We're not going to be stupid and sacrifice to stuff to put us below 3/4 artifacts when we have Blast/Cast in hand.
Memnite is not about getting the 1 point of damage in. The point of Memnite is to makes it easier to have an active Mox Opal on T1. Memnite can always be played on T1, regardless of whatever else is your hand, while Frogmite is. You said it yourself: this deck is moving towards the use of Mox Opal, and everything should be done to make it optimal.
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Sorry to say but Ancient Tomb is not good for the deck. You're going to give Zoo decks and Burn decks that you'll face in tournaments an easier time, because your land will shock you on it's own.
There's another way (as said already by Avatar of Light), to achieve turn one plating without losing life.
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people keep evaluating cards based on their individual quality. affinity is all about synergy. what's in the rest of your deck will dictate how good or bad the card you're evaluating is. seriously, this is a lesson that everyone in this thread needs to learn before making statements like "ravager is not good in multiples."
the equipment route is nice but too slow. you will always lose to more efficient aggro decks that can even handle their equipments better like rock variants or zoo. the greatest strengths of affinity are synergy and speed.
My thoughts on Glimpse is that if you don't draw it in your opening hand, it's a dead card. The whole point of affinity is to dump out your hand as quick as possible. We can't afford to hold onto creatures simply for hoping to Glimpse draw our deck.
It's a lot better card drawing engine than Thoughtcast in some respect, but I feel like it doesn't have much synergy to the deck to warrant a swap.
i hear ya, but i could make hands mulled for other reasons recover faster. maybe a 3 count of them in addition to thoughtcast. also, being in topdeck mode turn 2 kinda blows. at best you have 2-3 mana sources and 3-4 small threats, with all your cards visible. with glimpse, i feel we can cut up to two lands, and perhaps a thought cast or the 4th MoE in some builds. i really dont care for Moe myself. i think enforcer may be superior in a glimpse build.
Agreed on all points. Would it be possible to see your current list, Izor? Here's my current list:
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Great Furnace
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Vault of Whispers
Creatures (26)
4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Disciple of the Vault
4x Frogmite
4x Master of Etherium
4x Memnite
2x Myr Enforcer
4x Ornithopter
4x Cranial Plating
3x Mox Opal
3x Springleaf Drum
4x Galvanic Blast
4x Thoughtcast
I'm playing around with a build that includes the Thopter/Sword combo:
-4x Darksteel Citadel
-4x Disciple of the Vault
-4x Frogmite
+4x Blinkmoth Nexus
+1x Myr Enforcer
+4x Steel Overseer
+1x Sword of the Meek
+2x Thopter Foundry
I really like the fact that I now have more access to flyers, and the lifegain from the Foundry has also saved me quite a few times. I may end up switching back to Disciples/Citadels instead of Overseer/Nexus since Thopter Sword + DoTV = game.
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I do like the 4th Drum since we are running 8 0cc cards. The 3rd Enforcer looks good too. I'll give these changes a try.
The Thopter/Sword combo isn't the focal point of the deck though. It's sort of just their to add a bit of mid-to-late game punch. The Foundry itself works fine on its own with MoE and Overseer. The times that I do get the Sword is just gravy.
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several posts back we were talking about potential of thopter combo because of its flyer swarm potential and an additional synergy with disciple.
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I know that MoE doesn't exactly work well with the Thopter/Sword combo, but with just MoE and Foundry in play, I'm turning useless artifacts into 2/2 flyers and 1 life. If I do run into that problem of having MoE in play and the ability to combo out, I can always sacrifice the MoE to the Foundry. I will test Disciples in place of MoE though to see how it works out.
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But damn, just consider suggestions, man. That's how decks grow. A big part of why decks don't grow is this stagnant mentality that it simply will not work. This is how Affinity gets pigeon-holed into "one list to rule them all" type idiocy. This is all theory, let's suggest theories backed by evidence, but since when has it become tiresome to sift through suggestions? In my testing, Ancient Tomb has significantly helped me because while Thoughtcast, Frogmite and the occasional Myr Enforcer have Affinity, the odd part is... very little else Affinity is totally necessary.
Therefore, there are some cards you want to play ASAP, like Cranial Plating and Master of Etherium. I think some people are just simply married to the idea of Arcbound Ravager, and sure I'll admit I've understated his importance, but sometimes you have to give up the ghost. Now that Affinity is a real easy threat to answer, and there are plenty of ways to simply wreck it, its numbers must rack up faster.
How often can you not get Mox Opal online if you've already got Memnites and Ornithopters and other things you can play through the Ancient Tomb anyway?
I think these ideas get rejected because they haven't been proven, but that doesn't mean they're wrong. Hell, it doesn't mean they're right, and I'm not totally sure why I'm even posting this because as soon as I hit Submit Reply, someone out there will have an aneurysm and I apologize ahead of time, but within testing that I've tried, it can occasionally lubricate your machine to get more mana out that you may otherwise have trouble achieving.
Whatever, you guys take it more seriously, so I guess you have the license to be crotchety bastards about suggesting tinkering with the amount of "key" cards. Maybe one day I can reach this level of enlightenment where I refuse the thought that may even somehow slightly challenge all that I understand about a deck in a card game.
Plus, the equipment idea is slow and counter-intuitive but you guys throw softballs at people who suggest adding that to Affinity. Equipment beyond Cranial Plating doesn't fit into Affinity, and tutoring a Cranial Plating through Stoneforge Mystic instead of something faster like Steelshaper's Gift is obscene that you would even encourage how it's a decent idea. But I liked the suggestion and didn't have the wherewithal to necessarily disprove it because I haven't tested it and like the thrust of the idea. Who knows, it may even work out.
B Infect
BW Death & Taxes
UBR Affinity
R Burn
UBR Sac Land Tendrils
UBRG Oops, All Spells
WUG Phelddagrif
GGG Omnath, Locus of Mana
BBB Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
RRR Ashling, the Pilgrim
BBW Teysa, Scion of Orzhov
UUU Talrand, Sky Summoner
UUB Vela the Night-Clad
GGB Vhati il-Dal
RUW Ruhan of the Fomori
Whether or not I agree with removing Ravager/Disciple or any other card for that matter isn't really the point, it's just sad to see people not even bother to test out changes. Maybe they're worse, but the deck will never evolve into something better without trial and error.
Let's be honest, Affinity isn't exactly a stellar Legacy deck. So I think it's clear that the deck should change in some shape or form. Maybe it's just trying to be faster like recent lists have been (Memnite, Mox Opal, Galvanic Blast, Shrapnel Blast... basically extra speed and reach). That doesn't mean that a deck trying to interact with your opponent more with cards like Vedalken Certarch, Thopter Foundry, and a higher blue count for FoW is bad.
Disciple - the reason I want to replace him is because he rarely meets ravager on the battlefield anymore. It's either ravager has already been killed, or disciple gets killed before I can cast a ravager. The games where I was able to make opponent lose a lot of life using Discpile still happen, but they are few. I have no intention to have less than 4 Ravagers, but I really want to find a replacement for Disciple.
Ok, I apologize for my opinion yesterday. When I saw the 2 damage from the Ancient Tomb that you're using, I thought that the tomb will cause auto-lose situations against Zoo decks and Burn decks (both are largely played in my meta). Well, if you say that it works in your testing, then I believe it now. Your play area probably has only has few decks with a lot of burn.
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I can honestly say that the only time canonist is NOT a threat is against the mirror, but honestly how many people run around with affinity now-a-days?
Wit E.C. on the board, opponents have to start thinking and being smart with what they play, and how they play it. For example, the opponent has in their hand 1 counterspell, 1 instant speed removal, 1 sorceries speed removal, 1 creature, and 1 sorcery speed cantrip. What canonist has done is forced the opponent to A) Choose between dropping a threat their turn, using a sorcery speed removal, or cantripping B) On our turn, they can either counter a spell or answer one of our threats already on the board.
T1(ours) - we play as usual (memnite, thopter, mox, springleaf drum, frogmite, w/e)
T1(opponents)
T2 - Depending on the threats we have in hand (cranial plating? moe? ravager?) and what the opponent did their last turn, we decide what we should spend our mana on. For instance, if the opponent used ponder, thoughtseize, basking rootwala, wild nacatl, kird ape, goblin lackey and SO MANY other things, I would probably make canonist a priority over a ravager or MOE.
T2(opponents) - With E.C. on the field the opponent is now severely restrained in what they can do. They look at the board and they see our 2 artifact lands, 2 0 cast arti creatures and a frogmite. They have there one measly spell that the played on their first turn (duress, nacatl, what have you). They are in a bad position. If they thoughtseize you to see what you have in your hand and to reduce the hurt from the next turns attack then they cannot lay a creature. They can't cantrip (they can, but it will kill them if they do, affinity needs to be answered), they cant get any engines going (life from the loam, etc with the exception of SDT).
T3(ours) - we smile triumpantly as the opponent played their single 2drop card (tarmogoyf, BoB, w/e). With E.C. in play we know that the oppoent can counter one spell max this turn, so at least one of the cards we have in hand will hit the battlefield, and also the opponent is going to have to choose between a counter spell or a swords to plowshares. Knowing this, we drop out cranial plating knowing full well that the opponent will need to counter it or lose in two turns. When they do we drop MOE and proceed to beat them with out 0 cost artifacts.
Point being from all of this is that Canonist is such an amazing card that I want more in my main deck! Canonist is a card that applies EXACTLY the kind of pressure we want in affinity. Affinity empties our hand quickly and establishes board dominance as early as T1, canonist makes sure that an opponent will never be able to catch up to our level, nor will they ever be able to remove or deny enough to stop us. Added bonus is that canonist blatantly hoses several top tier decks (vengvine and storm).
Edit: And no, canonist will not throw off our curve or slow us down. The core of affinity will always be fast and the 12 or so cards we play with do not drastically effect the core.
Edit edit: The only downside I have found with canonist is the fact that sometimes the mana base cannot support her. I have had hands on multiple occasions where I have no mox no drum but just an insanely fast hand with great furnace or seat of the synod. I keep, I go ape ☺☺☺☺ T1, then I draw a Canonist T2 and I facepalm.
On a side note, has their been any announcements about the AFFINITY ability for mirrodin besieged? I would lovelovelovelove some new free toys!
the people that suggest things need to be able to take criticisms as well. and i do not agree with what you said. we're not simply discounting everything suggested with rigidity and assumptions. i've personally been playing affinity since mirrodin standard and have placed in a fair share of mirrodin standard and extended/legacy tournaments with it. over the years i've playtested every card suggested here, yes even cetrarch and stoneforge mystic. i've playtested the deck without ravagers, without disciples, without enforcers, etc.
so let me turn the tables on your argument. instead of assuming that we're just rejecting card suggestions based on The One list that we think is best, make your arguments for the cards you suggest more convincing. write out their advantages/disadvantages, keeping in mind that affinity is a deck about synergy, not individual card quality. what match-ups do they improve compared to the usual list? what match-ups do they make worse? there has to be more than just fancy 1 in 10 scenarios that the card would give the deck.
i won't deny that i consider "fast affinity" to be the most powerful and consistent variation of affinity at the moment. prove me wrong. or at the very least, provide an in depth enough analysis to make the new suggestions worth considering.
Conversation about new and interesting cards is never a bad thing, and sometimes it can lead to really great things! No one should get upset or be harsh or anything like that.
i haven't played canonist main deck since before scars. maybe it's time to try it again with the new cards and the new meta. i'll let you know how it goes.
if i remember correctly, there was a whole article on the wizards site when scars first came out about how big a mistake the affinity mechanic was because of its power level. so i doubt it will be used again anytime soon. on the other hand, metalcraft is just fine for us, as proven by opal and galvanic blast.
While I agree with this for the most part, there are builds that play a 1 of Memnite to get around Canonist.
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