Never underestimate Disciple of the Vault. Disciple is possibly the most broken creature in the entire format, and one of the reasons why Affinity can just simply "win".
DotV is at it's strongest with Ravager on the board, that is true, but he is still a threat regardless. And Multiple Disciples out with a ravager lets you win at instant speed on the spot.
Never underestimate Disciple of the Vault. Disciple is possibly the most broken creature in the entire format, and one of the reasons why Affinity can just simply "win".
DotV is at it's strongest with Ravager on the board, that is true, but he is still a threat regardless. And Multiple Disciples out with a ravager lets you win at instant speed on the spot.
He's absolutely right about this. I've tested all the lists that have posted even remotely good results and here's what I've seen:
Glimpse of Nature/Riddlesmith - Really shaky. REAAAAAAAAALLY shaky. This one actually mulligans worse than my list, and is much more vulnerable to a single FoW/Thoughtseize (Riddlesmith is patently worthless without Glimpse). I wouldn't play it.
Tempered Steel/Canonist - If you are seeing tons of combo in your format (read: Charbelcher/ANT) then it's pretty good at times, but lacks the end game ability that DotV/Ravager have and I think that's pretty relevant.
Past that, I personally play an extremely accelerated list that runs Grim Monolith and Ancient Tomb, not to mention Steel Overseer, and it runs pretty differently. If playing with a classic mana base (read: Springleaf Drum) I'd recommend DotV/Ravager affinity with splash for Green or White, but only for sideboard cards.
@NavyJoe: Interesting list save for 2 cards that downright should not be in there. Mox diamond is terrible in any deck with under 24 lands and your list runs 16. Seems like you have consistency issues there; berserk is an all in type of card, just like fling. The latter has been dismissed from most if not all builds of affinity for quite some time and berserk well no one plays it because it is quite expensive at $20 a pop for a card that is utter trash and people would rather spend $20 elsewhere.
The ONLY problem with tempered steel is colorfixing for it. That's why I'm currently testing -4 darksteel citadel +4 glimmervoid so I can consistently get it out turns 2-3. Sure glimmervoid weakens the deck a little but tempered steel is such a bomb when it sticks. And in multiples you can just break a game open sometimes and crush the opponent.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Tempered Steel is pretty sick if you can stick it consistently. Especially in multiples. If you're going to add 4 Glimmervoids, I would probably go up a land or two in total.
I will suggest, however, not to go below 40 artifacts under any circumstances. I haven't seen your list, but I could be convinced.
And I also think that a dedicated Tempered Steel-Affinity works fine. The major problem here is its inconsistency. The deck is quite weak without Tempered Steel, as most lists play a lot of free vanilla creatures and even if it draws Tempered Steel, it first has to get those 2 white mana.
But nonetheless I have to say after extensive playtesting since Scars came out, I could only draw the conclusion that the sped-up traditional build is still the best (I mean the one that will probably constantly be the most successful).
nothing but truth.
getting back to the fast traditional build, i've decided to cut the 4th mox opal for the 4th galvanic blast. opal has been an absolute joy to play, but drawing multiples early without a disciple or ravager has been disappointing. i would have preferred to cut 1 land for it but i think 16 is the minimum that this deck should be running for consistency. i was also thinking of cutting the 4th enforcer for it instead, but i've never been sorry to see an enforcer in my hand, even in multiples. we'll see how it goes. if i start noticing a slight slowdown with just 3 opals i'll just put the 4th back in and remove the 4th enforcer for the blast instead.
First thing is I cut Ravager down to 2 because with my experience of playing this deck he just gets StP or PtE no matter how big he gets. I added the Thopter Combo as well. Even with Ravager down to 2 the Thopter Combo also helps Disciple of the Vault ability trigger.
I added Stoneforge mystic to help find Sword of the Meek if needed plus she'll find Cranial Plating.
Really, there have been several people now who thought it intelligent to cut the very best CMC 1 creature in the whole legacy format
I agree that Disciple+Ravager belong in the deck, but Disciple being the best one drop? You don't really scoop to an unanswered Disciple like you scoop to an unanswered Goblin Lackey.
It seems that whenever Affinity is brought up in articles nowadays that people are really pushing it towards a more controlling build. Going more into Blue with Vedalken Certarch, FoW, even seen some people using Somber Hovergaurd to up the blue count and get a pretty good Plating target.
Not sure if its the best direction to take Affinity, but I agree with them that it is good to change the deck. Quite frankly it just isn't that good as is, unless you resolve a Plating or Ravager/Disciple combo that your opponent can't deal with. Even if your creatures are free, they are still unimpressive on their own. I just see Affinity as is being stuck somewhere between aggro and combo; it dumps its hand out as fast as combo will and then tries to beat you down like aggro. It just doesn't do either of those all that well compared to "tier 1" decks.
I agree that Disciple+Ravager belong in the deck, but Disciple being the best one drop? You don't really scoop to an unanswered Disciple like you scoop to an unanswered Goblin Lackey.
That's cause you have a chance to recover from an unanswered Lackey. An unanswered Disciple often kills you on the spot.
In my opinion, my failure to find space for Disciple in my Certarch build is the only thing keeping that deck from being competitive. Who knows, maybe I'll find the right setup eventually...Or someone will...it seems like the idea is catching on.
nice to know that the new "fast list" is winning tournaments. i would run memnite over worker to make room for more galvanics though. otherwise the list is pretty much what we're making fast affinity to be.
affinity will never be a tier 1 deck IMO. but "fast affinity" will always be it's most explosive and consistent version. we should try out different builds, yes. but keep in mind that the only kind of list consistently posting any kind of results is fast affinity.
I wana fit in memnites or another blast but duno what to take out. I could take our worker because hes a 1/1 for 1 and memnite is a 1/1 for zero but worker if he dies he makes another artifact bigger...
I wana fit in memnites or another blast but duno what to take out. I could take our worker because hes a 1/1 for 1 and memnite is a 1/1 for zero but worker if he dies he makes another artifact bigger...
I would suggest having Memnites instead of the workers, it will help you get a more explosive first turn with Drum. I had the same thoughts as you before, that the +1/+1 given by the worker (when he dies) might be relevant. But after a few days of testing, I realized that a chance for a faster start is simply better than the +1/+1.
Nope. Ever heard of a format called Extended? Disciple was one of only two cards that had to be banned in the old and much larger Extended because it was too strong (the other being the card that was basically feared for cheating Disciples into play). So Disciple is feared much more than only in Block...
I don't think any single deck had more cards banned from it in every single format it has been in, or has caused more cards to be banned. It would be sick and twisted if they returned Skullclamp in Legacy.
Disciple of the Vault is smack in the middle of "overpowered", because it changes CA loss directly into tempo gain. Wrath? Well, that ten damages helps with the grieving.
*Riddlesmith just isn't that good. You need something like Squee to gain any CA from it. You need to build mass to win with Affinity, to discarding cards does nothing to help your plan.
**I am going to replace Frogmite with Somber Hoverguard (test). We have a really consistent opening turn and all the cheap artifact/color fixing (Spring, Mox). It would (theoretically) come out early on a consistent basis. It is makes for a better top-deck, but Frogmite makes for a better opener. I will follow up this test with another one, where I will replace Enforcer with it. Flying is just so relevant.
***If you want some solid card draw, you could try Perilous Research. It is perfect when something is being targeted and there is no Ravager in sight. It not only fizzles their removal, but also gives you two cards.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
anyone tried glaze fiend recently ? it flies and turns every artifact into 2 damage. i used to run a couple in ravager affinity in place of one myr enforcer and one frogmite and was never unhappy when i drew them.
anyone tried glaze fiend recently ? it flies and turns every artifact into 2 damage. i used to run a couple in ravager affinity in place of one myr enforcer and one frogmite and was never unhappy when i drew them.
that really interesting, simply because he can get very big from casting 0 cost spells, as well as the fact that hes a flyer that can have cranial plating slapped on.
@ Naz: Well, I'm going to end that discussion on Disciple. I just want to say that if you think that a card for one mana with the ability: ''Whenever another permanent you control is put into a graveyard from play, target player loses 1 life'' is bad in legacy, especially in a deck that has several sacrifice outlets, I can't help you.
Except it doesn't read that. Here's what the card reads:
Whenever another permanent you control that is not this card, or copies of this card, is put in the graveyard......
It also says:
This card is not an artifact and has the following limitations:
Doesn't help trigger metalcraft for mox opal
Doesn't provide effectively free mana for your affinity cards
Doesn't get bonuses from Master of Etherium
Doesn't give bonuses to Master of Etherium
Doesn't give bonuses to cranial plating
Requires specifically colored mana, and probably the only card in your deck that requires black to cast, forcing you to pick that as one of your colors for a card you may not ever see with no ability to get it other than drawstep
Limits your deckbuilding options as you are force to play cards that combo with this card.
And yet I am still not saying its a bad card in the least. I'm just saying it's the old guard and people need to be more receptive to what's come out recently. I will fully make the argument that galvanic blast is probably better for his slot, because it can do comparable damage, often faster, without sacrifice, that can also remove blockers. I will this also say that without him ravager gets much worse and you probably can find something better for that slot as well.
Disciple is not a bad card, perhaps it's usefulness is dated though.
With the release of SoM I did this:
-4 Disciple
-4 Vault of Whispers
-1 Springleaf Drum
+2 Great Forge
+4 Galvanic Blast
+3 Mox Opal
Galvanic blast has been playing AMAZINGLY. I am honestly in love with the card. 50/50 I use it on a blocker the opponent might have to get in a killing swing (on a ravager or enforcer) and the other half I use it on opponent directly.
I still hate drawing into moxes, but what can you do =/
And yet I am still not saying its a bad card in the least. I'm just saying it's the old guard and people need to be more receptive to what's come out recently. I will fully make the argument that galvanic blast is probably better for his slot, because it can do comparable damage, often faster, without sacrifice, that can also remove blockers. I will this also say that without him ravager gets much worse and you probably can find something better for that slot as well.
That I agree that people are perceiving the argument in wrong direction.
To some of us the technique of putting a lot of artifacts out then losing them to ping for damage just seems dated. some of us rather just take a slug feat approach.
For those still using disciple why not capitalize your sacrifice outlets with stuff like Goblin bombardment or greater gargadon (yes i know goblin bombarment is creatures only but vast majority of the stuff u sac is a creature in this deck. so it has possibility.) then you get benefit to the lost of all the artifacts that are sacrificed.
lot of us who are weary about lately ravager is due to the fact there isn't enough sacrifice elements in the deck to make disciple uber good. turtling away your artifacts to ping each loss on your attacker is fine but like i said some of us don't find it very up to date.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Collaborative Pub: Ice Cold Thoughts Always On Tap Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
--------------------------------------------------- Vintage will rise again!Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
I'd say Ravager is one of the key components of the deck even without Disciples. It's probably best to think of it as Platings/Masters 5-8, and can force opponents to make unprofitable decisions if they use removal spells. Just curious about what you running in place of it (please don't say Atog lol)?
I am finding each Disciple deals around 4-6 damage per game not counting Ravager combo-wins. We run black lands anyways, and around 6 nonland sources of mana that can produce black. I have room for Galvanic Blast, too.
Why can't everyone just get along and put all of the sexy stuff in one deck :(?
Anyways, regarding sideboards, for an unknown meta what would you guys suggest? I am going to assume there will be some ANT, some Zoo, some Countertop stuff, possibly some GY strats, and some tribals.
I'd say Ravager is one of the key components of the deck even without Disciples. It's probably best to think of it as Platings/Masters 5-8, and can force opponents to make unprofitable decisions if they use removal spells. Just curious about what you running in place of it (please don't say Atog lol)?
I am finding each Disciple deals around 4-6 damage per game not counting Ravager combo-wins. We run black lands anyways, and around 6 nonland sources of mana that can produce black. I have room for Galvanic Blast, too.
Why can't everyone just get along and put all of the sexy stuff in one deck :(?
Anyways, regarding sideboards, for an unknown meta what would you guys suggest? I am going to assume there will be some ANT, some Zoo, some Countertop stuff, possibly some GY strats, and some tribals.
Do I need to find some room for Needles of my own? How about Ethersworn Canonists or counters?
Yes galvanic and Dotv, what other artifacts can we take out to put in cards that are only strong when you run more artifacts?
In all seriousness, on the topic of the SB, Pithing Needle does rule hard right now. Its great against survival, anything using grindstones as a wincon, aether vial based decks, etc while being an artifact for your count. I also like mindbreak trap a lot for the storm builds, but you really need to run 4 in my eyes for it to matter. how often does Krark-Clan Shaman really do much for you? likewise i assume etched champ is for gobs and zoo, but do you have issues with those match ups to start with that you need to hate on them?
I think it's more of that we are all just trying to promote healthy discussion of all of our new options.
Let's say that the average Disciple does ~4 damage (whether this is true or not is another discussion) without a Ravager.
We could replace that with Galvanic Blast to get that 4 damage.
This is where we can open up discussion.
Not really saying replace Disciple for Blast and cut black for red. (I would suggest to any Affinity list to try to find room for both) Just saying that discussion is good
I really do like red though. For the pure aggro strategies you get the four Galvanic Blasts and however many copies of Shrapnel Blast you feel comfortable running. I end so many games by being able to drop my opponent the last handful of lifepoints with burn. Especially nice once Goyfs start getting too big to swing into.
In regards to Black, I always wanted to make the color more worth it. I feel like having Cabal Therapy would be great. It only has direct synergy with Disciple, but the card is by far one of the strongest cards in Legacy and it's one of those cards that I always playtest in decks that consistently have multiple creatures out on the field to hit the flashback.
In my playtesting with the card, I have won my fair share of games (especially game 2's and 3's when you know your opponent's deck) off of ripping half of their hand with turn 1 Cabal Therapy, into saccing a Memnite/Ornithopter for flashback.
Also makes combo much more manageable when you can rip a LED or tutor (sometimes both with flashback) from their hand to really slow them down.
Honestly I think the biggest problem with Affinity isn't the powerlevel of its cards at this point. The problem is that there just isn't enough space in the deck. You have to sacrifice potential power because you just can't run everything
In all seriousness, on the topic of the SB, Pithing Needle does rule hard right now. Its great against survival, anything using grindstones as a wincon, aether vial based decks, etc while being an artifact for your count. I also like mindbreak trap a lot for the storm builds, but you really need to run 4 in my eyes for it to matter. how often does Krark-Clan Shaman really do much for you? likewise i assume etched champ is for gobs and zoo, but do you have issues with those match ups to start with that you need to hate on them?
I find Krark-Clan Shaman is an auto-win against tribal decks. We can normally afford to pump out 2-3 damage with it when they swing in, and we can just sac stuff that would die to the damage anyway to pay the cost. It also completely beats out Bridge from Below, both the tokens and the trigger requirement. Zoo is one of the nightmare matchups, after boarding in Champs it's not as scary. The problems with Zoo are:
Their mass of removal kills all my creatures, making Ravager counters and Platings virtually useless, and
Their guys are just really beefy, meaning that after the swath of removal my guys consist of a few Frogmites and Memnites which makes any combat math unprofitable for me.
Champs deal with both of these issues, by being unblockable and resistant to removal.
Needle sounds really sexy now, thanks for clarifying. I'll find some room for them.
@rowtheboat:
Cabal Therapy used to be run in some lists in either the MD or SB. It had great synergy with Arcbound Workers, if you want to run them.
Why are people replacing vial with mox? Yes, we don't vial in workers any more and yes mox does make us a lot faster but we wont also be able to combo win turn 4 and at that point we need another game plan. Vial lives through kegs at 1, armageddon, wasteland and makes things uncounterable, allowing us to always play our masters. You don't replace vial with mox, you leave vial in, use mox to replace lands or springleaf drums and then run etched champions as well as masters of etherium to make vial at 3 worth while.
Well that's the way I see things anyway...
Because, players would rather play their spells faster than have to dance around counter spells. A turn one or two Ravager with Opal support beats a turn three Ravager from Vial every day of the week. Basic logic tells us multiple things to support Opal vs Vial:
1) It fixes our mana and boosts it, allowing degenerate plays such as the aforementioned turn one Ravager, but also followed by turn two Master.
2) It it is a free artifact.
3) The boost allows you to play a faster game.
4) Playing your spells earlier means they have less counter to answer with, or inefficient counter and/or removal.
5) Vial is slow. By the time it would be fully functional (two or three counters) we would already be at the mercy of sweeps. Opal negates this, because it literally speeds up our game plan by one full turn.
6) Less resistance. When Opal becomes functional, you just have to deal with your opponents opening hand. When Vial becomes functional, your opponent has drawn multiple cards and is supporting their game plan. Vial getting your creatures through counter doesn't stop them from being removed.
7) It isn't redundant in multiples. Ravager can eat them, allowing you to cast extra copies from your hand, sometimes even generating extra mana for you to abuse. At it's worse, you can cast a copy to destroy another one with the Legendary rule to deal two damage with Disciple.
8) It is useful at any point in time. You can use it's mana to cast Blast, or help your pay for Daze. Vial on the other hand is completely useless until it has enough counters (two or three). If you use Vial, you are losing a lot of potential power, and consistency. When I used Vial, there were situations where it had two counters, but I had nothing to play from my hand. So it was completely up in the air as to whether I should add a counter or not, since I could draw a Master, or I might draw a Ravager. Or I might draw a land, making any of my choices pointless. Opal on the other hand doesn't care what I drew, and helps with the casting of literally every spell you could place in the deck.
9) Mox produces tangible gains that will always be realized. It will always tap for some gain, be it casting a Thoughtcast, or paying for the color heavy Cranial Plating. Vial on the other hand provides intangible gains that are (at times) completely useless. It doesn't help against decks such as Zoo, since they might not even be running counters, and it doesn't change much in terms of removal; they will still have the option to kill it on our turn. It also slows us down, allowing our opponents to draw into their removal that will negate their inability to counter the one or two creatures vial slips in.
10) Mox is in not way, shape, or form, a land. If you are replacing lands with it, you have a fundamental flaw in your logic that needs to be addressed. It is more along the lines of Chrome Mox, without any baggage.
I could go on and on all day about why Opal is better. Any argument made against it has an equally strong or stronger argument for it. In the end, speed is the factor that applies to all of these points. In Legacy, speed is better than tricks, because it means that your opponent has less opportunities to respond. They are restricted by the cards they have drawn; your turn one Ravager has less chance of meeting removal than a later one. If it does, then your turn two Master has even less chance, and so on.
Except it doesn't read that. Here's what the card reads:
Whenever another permanent you control that is not this card, or copies of this card, is put in the graveyard......
It also says:
This card is not an artifact and has the following limitations:
Doesn't help trigger metalcraft for mox opal
Doesn't provide effectively free mana for your affinity cards
Doesn't get bonuses from Master of Etherium
Doesn't give bonuses to Master of Etherium
Doesn't give bonuses to cranial plating
Requires specifically colored mana, and probably the only card in your deck that requires black to cast, forcing you to pick that as one of your colors for a card you may not ever see with no ability to get it other than drawstep
Limits your deckbuilding options as you are force to play cards that combo with this card.
And yet I am still not saying its a bad card in the least. I'm just saying it's the old guard and people need to be more receptive to what's come out recently. I will fully make the argument that galvanic blast is probably better for his slot, because it can do comparable damage, often faster, without sacrifice, that can also remove blockers. I will this also say that without him ravager gets much worse and you probably can find something better for that slot as well.
I like using Disciple just because it isn't an artifact, which allows you to keep board presence against the obvious hate for this deck, which is why I am trying out Somber Hoverguard in the deck as well.
*I have found that Disciple is only really good when you can maximize your board presence. With that in mind, I added Brainstorm to the deck. It allows you to build board presence (keeping "free" spells in your hand), and allows you to dig for Ravager. I still need to test the mirror though, so all of this is just theory.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
I like using Disciple just because it isn't an artifact, which allows you to keep board presence against the obvious hate for this deck, which is why I am trying out Somber Hoverguard in the deck as well.
*I have found that Disciple is only really good when you can maximize your board presence. With that in mind, I added Brainstorm to the deck. It allows you to build board presence (keeping "free" spells in your hand), and allows you to dig for Ravager. I still need to test the mirror though, so all of this is just theory.
Like both of these ideas. Hoverguard is not a bad card at all being that it's a evasive beater that doesn't need to carry a plating to a jitte to be a threat. I don't think i would go crazy with them as they still are not an artifact and are on the higher end of the cost spectrum.
I tired out brainstorm as well and loved it, as it often allowed me to put back lands i did not need that turn and get out turn one enforcers and such. The only issue with it was deciding what to cut.
The other side of this is if your running that much blue, you can run FOW, if only in the sideboard. Not sure if their are decks you would want to side it in against yet, but it does protect a cranial plating thopter like a champ.
DotV is at it's strongest with Ravager on the board, that is true, but he is still a threat regardless. And Multiple Disciples out with a ravager lets you win at instant speed on the spot.
He's absolutely right about this. I've tested all the lists that have posted even remotely good results and here's what I've seen:
Glimpse of Nature/Riddlesmith - Really shaky. REAAAAAAAAALLY shaky. This one actually mulligans worse than my list, and is much more vulnerable to a single FoW/Thoughtseize (Riddlesmith is patently worthless without Glimpse). I wouldn't play it.
Tempered Steel/Canonist - If you are seeing tons of combo in your format (read: Charbelcher/ANT) then it's pretty good at times, but lacks the end game ability that DotV/Ravager have and I think that's pretty relevant.
Past that, I personally play an extremely accelerated list that runs Grim Monolith and Ancient Tomb, not to mention Steel Overseer, and it runs pretty differently. If playing with a classic mana base (read: Springleaf Drum) I'd recommend DotV/Ravager affinity with splash for Green or White, but only for sideboard cards.
Legacy
BGWRockBGW
UBHive MindUB
UBAffinityUB
The ONLY problem with tempered steel is colorfixing for it. That's why I'm currently testing -4 darksteel citadel +4 glimmervoid so I can consistently get it out turns 2-3. Sure glimmervoid weakens the deck a little but tempered steel is such a bomb when it sticks. And in multiples you can just break a game open sometimes and crush the opponent.
Currently Playing:
Retired
I will suggest, however, not to go below 40 artifacts under any circumstances. I haven't seen your list, but I could be convinced.
nothing but truth.
getting back to the fast traditional build, i've decided to cut the 4th mox opal for the 4th galvanic blast. opal has been an absolute joy to play, but drawing multiples early without a disciple or ravager has been disappointing. i would have preferred to cut 1 land for it but i think 16 is the minimum that this deck should be running for consistency. i was also thinking of cutting the 4th enforcer for it instead, but i've never been sorry to see an enforcer in my hand, even in multiples. we'll see how it goes. if i start noticing a slight slowdown with just 3 opals i'll just put the 4th back in and remove the 4th enforcer for the blast instead.
galvanic blast is the nutz
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Disciple of the Vault
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Arcbound Ravager
3 Master of Etherium
4 Frogmite
3 Mox Opal
3 Springleaf Drum
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Ancient Den
First thing is I cut Ravager down to 2 because with my experience of playing this deck he just gets StP or PtE no matter how big he gets. I added the Thopter Combo as well. Even with Ravager down to 2 the Thopter Combo also helps Disciple of the Vault ability trigger.
I added Stoneforge mystic to help find Sword of the Meek if needed plus she'll find Cranial Plating.
I don't really have a sideboard put together but this is what I'm thinking
4 Ethersworn Cannonist
3 Pithing Needle
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
4 Shrapnel Blast
I agree that Disciple+Ravager belong in the deck, but Disciple being the best one drop? You don't really scoop to an unanswered Disciple like you scoop to an unanswered Goblin Lackey.
It seems that whenever Affinity is brought up in articles nowadays that people are really pushing it towards a more controlling build. Going more into Blue with Vedalken Certarch, FoW, even seen some people using Somber Hovergaurd to up the blue count and get a pretty good Plating target.
Not sure if its the best direction to take Affinity, but I agree with them that it is good to change the deck. Quite frankly it just isn't that good as is, unless you resolve a Plating or Ravager/Disciple combo that your opponent can't deal with. Even if your creatures are free, they are still unimpressive on their own. I just see Affinity as is being stuck somewhere between aggro and combo; it dumps its hand out as fast as combo will and then tries to beat you down like aggro. It just doesn't do either of those all that well compared to "tier 1" decks.
That's cause you have a chance to recover from an unanswered Lackey. An unanswered Disciple often kills you on the spot.
In my opinion, my failure to find space for Disciple in my Certarch build is the only thing keeping that deck from being competitive. Who knows, maybe I'll find the right setup eventually...Or someone will...it seems like the idea is catching on.
Wanna see a man eat a Jace? Here ya go!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDqo7YEpdso
COMMANDER
RWUNumot, the DevastatorUWR
RGWRith, the AwakenerWGR
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
affinity will never be a tier 1 deck IMO. but "fast affinity" will always be it's most explosive and consistent version. we should try out different builds, yes. but keep in mind that the only kind of list consistently posting any kind of results is fast affinity.
4x archbound ravager
4x archbound worker
4x disciple of the vaukt
4x frogmite
4x master of etherium
3x myr enforcer
4x ornithopter
3x galvanic blast
4x thoughtcast
Other:
4x cranial plating
3x mox opal
3x springleaf drum
4x darksteel citadel
4x seat of the synod
4x great furnace
4x vault of whispers
I wana fit in memnites or another blast but duno what to take out. I could take our worker because hes a 1/1 for 1 and memnite is a 1/1 for zero but worker if he dies he makes another artifact bigger...
I would suggest having Memnites instead of the workers, it will help you get a more explosive first turn with Drum. I had the same thoughts as you before, that the +1/+1 given by the worker (when he dies) might be relevant. But after a few days of testing, I realized that a chance for a faster start is simply better than the +1/+1.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
I don't think any single deck had more cards banned from it in every single format it has been in, or has caused more cards to be banned. It would be sick and twisted if they returned Skullclamp in Legacy.
Disciple of the Vault is smack in the middle of "overpowered", because it changes CA loss directly into tempo gain. Wrath? Well, that ten damages helps with the grieving.
*Riddlesmith just isn't that good. You need something like Squee to gain any CA from it. You need to build mass to win with Affinity, to discarding cards does nothing to help your plan.
**I am going to replace Frogmite with Somber Hoverguard (test). We have a really consistent opening turn and all the cheap artifact/color fixing (Spring, Mox). It would (theoretically) come out early on a consistent basis. It is makes for a better top-deck, but Frogmite makes for a better opener. I will follow up this test with another one, where I will replace Enforcer with it. Flying is just so relevant.
***If you want some solid card draw, you could try Perilous Research. It is perfect when something is being targeted and there is no Ravager in sight. It not only fizzles their removal, but also gives you two cards.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
that really interesting, simply because he can get very big from casting 0 cost spells, as well as the fact that hes a flyer that can have cranial plating slapped on.
Like Squandered Resources on Facebook for updates on article releases, deck lists, and more!
Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
Special thanks to Bornnover for the banner used in those articles.
If you have room for glazefiend in your build, put galvanic blast in instead.
Except it doesn't read that. Here's what the card reads:
Whenever another permanent you control that is not this card, or copies of this card, is put in the graveyard......
It also says:
This card is not an artifact and has the following limitations:
And yet I am still not saying its a bad card in the least. I'm just saying it's the old guard and people need to be more receptive to what's come out recently. I will fully make the argument that galvanic blast is probably better for his slot, because it can do comparable damage, often faster, without sacrifice, that can also remove blockers. I will this also say that without him ravager gets much worse and you probably can find something better for that slot as well.
Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com/
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
With the release of SoM I did this:
-4 Disciple
-4 Vault of Whispers
-1 Springleaf Drum
+2 Great Forge
+4 Galvanic Blast
+3 Mox Opal
Galvanic blast has been playing AMAZINGLY. I am honestly in love with the card. 50/50 I use it on a blocker the opponent might have to get in a killing swing (on a ravager or enforcer) and the other half I use it on opponent directly.
I still hate drawing into moxes, but what can you do =/
That I agree that people are perceiving the argument in wrong direction.
To some of us the technique of putting a lot of artifacts out then losing them to ping for damage just seems dated. some of us rather just take a slug feat approach.
For those still using disciple why not capitalize your sacrifice outlets with stuff like Goblin bombardment or greater gargadon (yes i know goblin bombarment is creatures only but vast majority of the stuff u sac is a creature in this deck. so it has possibility.) then you get benefit to the lost of all the artifacts that are sacrificed.
lot of us who are weary about lately ravager is due to the fact there isn't enough sacrifice elements in the deck to make disciple uber good. turtling away your artifacts to ping each loss on your attacker is fine but like i said some of us don't find it very up to date.
Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
---------------------------------------------------
Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
I am finding each Disciple deals around 4-6 damage per game not counting Ravager combo-wins. We run black lands anyways, and around 6 nonland sources of mana that can produce black. I have room for Galvanic Blast, too.
Why can't everyone just get along and put all of the sexy stuff in one deck :(?
Anyways, regarding sideboards, for an unknown meta what would you guys suggest? I am going to assume there will be some ANT, some Zoo, some Countertop stuff, possibly some GY strats, and some tribals.
This is what I have right now:
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Etched Champion
3 Krosan Grip
3 Krark-Clan Shaman
The 1-of GY package is to dodge Pithing Needles.
Do I need to find some room for Needles of my own? How about Ethersworn Canonists or counters?
Yes galvanic and Dotv, what other artifacts can we take out to put in cards that are only strong when you run more artifacts?
In all seriousness, on the topic of the SB, Pithing Needle does rule hard right now. Its great against survival, anything using grindstones as a wincon, aether vial based decks, etc while being an artifact for your count. I also like mindbreak trap a lot for the storm builds, but you really need to run 4 in my eyes for it to matter. how often does Krark-Clan Shaman really do much for you? likewise i assume etched champ is for gobs and zoo, but do you have issues with those match ups to start with that you need to hate on them?
Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com/
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
Let's say that the average Disciple does ~4 damage (whether this is true or not is another discussion) without a Ravager.
We could replace that with Galvanic Blast to get that 4 damage.
This is where we can open up discussion.
Not really saying replace Disciple for Blast and cut black for red. (I would suggest to any Affinity list to try to find room for both) Just saying that discussion is good
I really do like red though. For the pure aggro strategies you get the four Galvanic Blasts and however many copies of Shrapnel Blast you feel comfortable running. I end so many games by being able to drop my opponent the last handful of lifepoints with burn. Especially nice once Goyfs start getting too big to swing into.
In regards to Black, I always wanted to make the color more worth it. I feel like having Cabal Therapy would be great. It only has direct synergy with Disciple, but the card is by far one of the strongest cards in Legacy and it's one of those cards that I always playtest in decks that consistently have multiple creatures out on the field to hit the flashback.
In my playtesting with the card, I have won my fair share of games (especially game 2's and 3's when you know your opponent's deck) off of ripping half of their hand with turn 1 Cabal Therapy, into saccing a Memnite/Ornithopter for flashback.
Also makes combo much more manageable when you can rip a LED or tutor (sometimes both with flashback) from their hand to really slow them down.
Honestly I think the biggest problem with Affinity isn't the powerlevel of its cards at this point. The problem is that there just isn't enough space in the deck. You have to sacrifice potential power because you just can't run everything
I find Krark-Clan Shaman is an auto-win against tribal decks. We can normally afford to pump out 2-3 damage with it when they swing in, and we can just sac stuff that would die to the damage anyway to pay the cost. It also completely beats out Bridge from Below, both the tokens and the trigger requirement. Zoo is one of the nightmare matchups, after boarding in Champs it's not as scary. The problems with Zoo are:
Needle sounds really sexy now, thanks for clarifying. I'll find some room for them.
@rowtheboat:
Cabal Therapy used to be run in some lists in either the MD or SB. It had great synergy with Arcbound Workers, if you want to run them.
Because, players would rather play their spells faster than have to dance around counter spells. A turn one or two Ravager with Opal support beats a turn three Ravager from Vial every day of the week. Basic logic tells us multiple things to support Opal vs Vial:
1) It fixes our mana and boosts it, allowing degenerate plays such as the aforementioned turn one Ravager, but also followed by turn two Master.
2) It it is a free artifact.
3) The boost allows you to play a faster game.
4) Playing your spells earlier means they have less counter to answer with, or inefficient counter and/or removal.
5) Vial is slow. By the time it would be fully functional (two or three counters) we would already be at the mercy of sweeps. Opal negates this, because it literally speeds up our game plan by one full turn.
6) Less resistance. When Opal becomes functional, you just have to deal with your opponents opening hand. When Vial becomes functional, your opponent has drawn multiple cards and is supporting their game plan. Vial getting your creatures through counter doesn't stop them from being removed.
7) It isn't redundant in multiples. Ravager can eat them, allowing you to cast extra copies from your hand, sometimes even generating extra mana for you to abuse. At it's worse, you can cast a copy to destroy another one with the Legendary rule to deal two damage with Disciple.
8) It is useful at any point in time. You can use it's mana to cast Blast, or help your pay for Daze. Vial on the other hand is completely useless until it has enough counters (two or three). If you use Vial, you are losing a lot of potential power, and consistency. When I used Vial, there were situations where it had two counters, but I had nothing to play from my hand. So it was completely up in the air as to whether I should add a counter or not, since I could draw a Master, or I might draw a Ravager. Or I might draw a land, making any of my choices pointless. Opal on the other hand doesn't care what I drew, and helps with the casting of literally every spell you could place in the deck.
9) Mox produces tangible gains that will always be realized. It will always tap for some gain, be it casting a Thoughtcast, or paying for the color heavy Cranial Plating. Vial on the other hand provides intangible gains that are (at times) completely useless. It doesn't help against decks such as Zoo, since they might not even be running counters, and it doesn't change much in terms of removal; they will still have the option to kill it on our turn. It also slows us down, allowing our opponents to draw into their removal that will negate their inability to counter the one or two creatures vial slips in.
10) Mox is in not way, shape, or form, a land. If you are replacing lands with it, you have a fundamental flaw in your logic that needs to be addressed. It is more along the lines of Chrome Mox, without any baggage.
I could go on and on all day about why Opal is better. Any argument made against it has an equally strong or stronger argument for it. In the end, speed is the factor that applies to all of these points. In Legacy, speed is better than tricks, because it means that your opponent has less opportunities to respond. They are restricted by the cards they have drawn; your turn one Ravager has less chance of meeting removal than a later one. If it does, then your turn two Master has even less chance, and so on.
I like using Disciple just because it isn't an artifact, which allows you to keep board presence against the obvious hate for this deck, which is why I am trying out Somber Hoverguard in the deck as well.
*I have found that Disciple is only really good when you can maximize your board presence. With that in mind, I added Brainstorm to the deck. It allows you to build board presence (keeping "free" spells in your hand), and allows you to dig for Ravager. I still need to test the mirror though, so all of this is just theory.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Like both of these ideas. Hoverguard is not a bad card at all being that it's a evasive beater that doesn't need to carry a plating to a jitte to be a threat. I don't think i would go crazy with them as they still are not an artifact and are on the higher end of the cost spectrum.
I tired out brainstorm as well and loved it, as it often allowed me to put back lands i did not need that turn and get out turn one enforcers and such. The only issue with it was deciding what to cut.
The other side of this is if your running that much blue, you can run FOW, if only in the sideboard. Not sure if their are decks you would want to side it in against yet, but it does protect a cranial plating thopter like a champ.
Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com/
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.