Huh, I lost my post. Anyways, Morphling, do you like the Glimpses and the Perfects? I used to consider the Glimpse, but the Perfect seems an odd choice.merged.
blut
Sry for late reply..
I love Glimpse..when it works. It works pretty often, but not always. It's never really a 'bad' play though.
Perfects, I'm honestly just running for another Lord. He's marginally better than Elvish Champion since he also provides bodies for Heritage Druid. But other than that, he's not really what I'd call 'stellar'. You could replace him I suppose.
But not Glimpse. Nothing else really does what it does. There's Skullclamp of course, but I like Glimpse better. Just 'fits' better, is cheaper to pull off, and doesn't feel quite so dickish.
I think Wellwisher is cute, nothing more. (And life gain still sucks, btw. Even (sorry, fans) here.) He really has no place in a 'serious' build, imo.
==
I'm actively looking for space for 4x Elvish Spirit Guide. I think he def has a role to play...could accelerate me that much more. We'll see..
I love Glimpse..when it works. It works pretty often, but not always. It's never really a 'bad' play though.
Perfects, I'm honestly just running for another Lord. He's marginally better than Elvish Champion since he also provides bodies for Heritage Druid. But other than that, he's not really what I'd call 'stellar'. You could replace him I suppose.
But not Glimpse. Nothing else really does what it does. There's Skullclamp of course, but I like Glimpse better. Just 'fits' better, is cheaper to pull off, and doesn't feel quite so dickish.
I think Wellwisher is cute, nothing more. (And life gain still sucks, btw. Even (sorry, fans) here.) He really has no place in a 'serious' build, imo.
==
I'm actively looking for space for 4x Elvish Spirit Guide. I think he def has a role to play...could accelerate me that much more. We'll see..
I actually have a playset of Spirit Guides in a garbage cheap-Magic Stompy deck I use to teach people the basics of the game. But yeah, look at my list (I quoted it above), would you swap 4 Wellwishers for 4 Glimpses? Even absolute worst case it turns a creature into a cantrip for a mana, and most cases can be a healthy turn 2 or 3 draw.
EDIT - Here's a question. Looking at the Legacy lists (basically what I play for Casual) they prefer Tribal Forcemage to Joraga. Whaddya think?
It's up to the player but personally, I would make that swap in a heartbeat and never look back. But that's only b/c I'm trying out a balls-to-wall (or my attempt at that) approach aggro. I want to just win--fast in a relatively non-interactive fashion. Wellwishers do not (imo) support that goal directly enough (if at all) and I'm not considering them.
Back in the day (Onslaught-era), the last iteration of this deck, I DID run them. Warcaller changed all that, basically. I saw him + Archdruid and I thought to mysef: "OK, let's just not ☺☺☺☺ around anymore and see what that does, eh?"
EDIT - Here's a question. Looking at the Legacy lists (basically what I play for Casual) they prefer Tribal Forcemage to Joraga. Whaddya think?
Now that really is a hard question. He's quite good. I've seen him win games from out of nowhere & he is def on the 'short list' of candidates. If you have a couple and you have room for them, hells yeah run em. But if not, I'm not sure you need to make room for him. He's a turn slower than Joraga, most games. (In having to cast him, then flip him over...) Again, all imo. I think they probably know what they're doing...
But also don't forget, a lot of times they pick cards for meta reasons. I don't know if that's the case here, but maybe. I see Joraga as flat-out superior b/c he scales very well, but I don't know their evaluation process here. It may well be that Forcemage is just waaay better in Legacy.
Haha yeah, I don't usually name my decks, but this one just kinda hit me..elves plus fire. And affordability isn't really the issue, I already have all those cards thanks to the 3 M11 boxes (had to trade a Baneslayer for 2 Rootbounds, and Faunas, but other than that had em all).
You'll probably want to cut Fireball and something else for 4 Bloodbraid Elf.
Aye, once I look to expand the deck (currently it's only M11) I'll be looking at Bloodbraid for sure. Gaea's Revenge will probably go, and the Primeval might as well..I'll look to make the deck a bit faster and such. I'm slightly hesitant to take out the fireballs though, as one of the win conditions of the deck is to have the Archdruids/Llanowars tap for a crapload of mana and fireball for a massive chunk of life.
Aye, once I look to expand the deck (currently it's only M11) I'll be looking at Bloodbraid for sure. Gaea's Revenge will probably go, and the Primeval might as well..I'll look to make the deck a bit faster and such. I'm slightly hesitant to take out the fireballs though, as one of the win conditions of the deck is to have the Archdruids/Llanowars tap for a crapload of mana and fireball for a massive chunk of life.
That was using only T2 cards. Here you have a much larger cardpool.
Yeah I see your point, I like the decks you have in that thread...giving me some ideas/options. I will have to playtest more to decide if I'd rather risk going for the bigger creatures or if I want to make it small for aggro.
Forcemage evades removal much better as, effectively, a one-turn super-Lord without a body to shoot down. And really, Forcemage Morph+Flip costs only what a twice-kickered Joraga costs and as opposed to just +2/+2 you get Trample out of it as well. I dunno, I just ordered a set of Joraga for cheap and I like them a lot (particularly the scalability so you can make a serious beatstick) but there is something to be said for dancing around removal.
Elfball is the old name for this list, that was mostly centered on a giant Fireball FTW. But RG definitely works. With enough mana fixer elves you almost don't need Mountains.
On the subject of land, I think you can safely run 14 forests and 1 or 2 non-basics. But you should have a core of 4 Llanowars, 4 Fyndhorns, 4 Priests, and a few Archdruids won't hurt either.
EDIT - Here's a question. Looking at the Legacy lists (basically what I play for Casual) they prefer Tribal Forcemage to Joraga. Whaddya think?
I've been following that same discussion and tried him out in my elf stompy. Goldfishing suggested that he was a keeper and I ordered the cards. I don't necessarily see it as an either/or question, though. I've got 47 elves in the stompy and that leaves room for 4 Joraga Warcaller and 3 Tribal Forcemage. Haven't yet tested him against other decks, though. We'll see how well it goes when there's opposition.
My concern (as posted over there) is how to use him when facing another elf deck. A buddy in my playgroup built an elfdrazi deck and he and I like to go head to head. His elves won't benefit from the trample, but they will get the +2/+2 bonus.
@Lunabass,
As Stax suggested, the usual splash for R is to cast Fireball or Banefire. Elf-ball is a combo deck, not an aggro deck. You can go aggro, but it doesn't really gain you much. Pausing to cast a Lightning Bolt, Incinerate, or Blazing Salvo hurts your tempo. While Bloodbraid Ef is certainly an efficient card, cheating a random card onto the battlefield doesn't compare well with something like Sylvan Messenger. Bloodbraids are better in decks where color-screw is a problem. Mono G elves don't really have that problem.
It's not that a deck like that is a bad idea. It would be fun to play. But in terms of being effective, the more traditional elves are likely to be better. That understood, if you like the combination of RG aggro/removal, go digging for a deck archetype named Frog in a Blender. Fun stuff.
And probably with the Wellwishers replaced by Glimpse, where would you fit Forcemages? As for mirror, that's what sideboards are for, and end of the day the +2/+2 cancels out (effectively) and you still get trampling at least which gives you more fun to play with Timberwatch.
Forests are such slow mana generation relative to the engines of the deck, tho. Your list seems too tech heavy to me. I buy slimming Wellwishers, but removing Messengers seems suicidal to me. You're removing a Trampling body (useful thing A) that generates truly insane card advantage in a deck like this. Why run Taunting Elves when your whole deck is built on an army of similar small elves either Sligh style or pumped by Joraga FTW, it's not like there's some single target worth chumping that Taunting protects.
Nope, Forests warrants the deck on rollling, with 14 lands odds are you'll mulligan every single game to drop your land, to then cast Llanowar/Fyndhorn or any other mana generator.
I don't get what you meant about "tech heavy".
I removed Sylvan Messenger to include Bloodline Shaman, which i find more abusive in this deck. a single Sylvan generates 4 cards, while Shaman brings more than that, just by staying into play. The trample is meh and irrelevant, since you can beat unblocked.
Taunting Elf is not there to "protect" an elf, but to let your deck beat unblocked, so it drags gg alot faster, specially with the use of Concordant Crossroads.
That's really not true. Like at all. I've been playtesting my current list all weekend and I don't think I've ever had to mully because of no Forests. That deck can (and often does) win just fine with 1 forest because after turn 1 a forest is SO MUCH worse than any Elf-based alternative.
And if you go -4 Fyndhorn, I'm sorry, you're just wrong. The entire point of the deck is as many of those in the early turns as possible coupled with an untapper or two into your win con on 3 or 4. And if you face any removal at all removing those Fyndhorn basically = Autolose.
That's really not true. Like at all. I've been playtesting my current list all weekend and I don't think I've ever had to mully because of no Forests. That deck can (and often does) win just fine with 1 forest because after turn 1 a forest is SO MUCH worse than any Elf-based alternative.
And if you go -4 Fyndhorn, I'm sorry, you're just wrong. The entire point of the deck is as many of those in the early turns as possible coupled with an untapper or two into your win con on 3 or 4. And if you face any removal at all removing those Fyndhorn basically = Autolose.
3-4? Take a second look at the list, look at your mana curve, 3-4 what for? (rhimed). Joraga? Sylvan? Heedless (eckt!!!)?, Swarm?. If you spend 3 on Joraga, you're doing probably the wrong play.
These spot mana hungry creatures will be suficed by a solid mana base + quirion ranger/llanowar elves (all first drop mana providers you need) + Priest.
Filling your deck with mana dorks will make you less of a threat than you could be, since you'll topdeck non-threat drops almost all the time.
Now about your mana base, 14 forest is too short, if you're not having to mull, than you're a lucking bastard, 'cause that's not common and math goes against it.
Just take a look into competitive decks, and you'll see that they never put their decks into this kind of risk unnecessarily. If you've even playing Glimpse Storm build, then i'd maybe agree with a short land base since every land you draw will stop glimpse, even so you should use ESG, to raise your mana production to 16-18.
I'm sorry, but you're the one doing the wrong move. If you really believe that removing a 1first turn mana dork as Fyndhorn = autose, then we REALLY agree to disagree.
But that's ok, it's your deck not mine, play whatever fits your taste, i gave you all help i could, now it's up to you to build your decks with the cards you want, it's casual anyways.
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"Now i lay you, down to rest, you'll never be more than second best" (Megadeth)
That's why you run mana acceleration so you win on turn 3-4 rather than asking people named Stax what single card you need 3-4 mana for. Turn 3-4 you should have somewhere in the neighborhood of 8+ mana depending on whether you've got running in terms of untappers, Crossroads, Priest, or some combo thereof.
And BTW, competitive decks? Run 4 Fyndhorn and 4 Llanowar for exactly the reasons I'm stating. Admittedly they're more tech'y but they run stuff like Natural Order that I don't feel like dropping money on.
EDIT - And I really do want to run a 4th Crossroads, but drawing a second is SUCH a wasted card.
That's why you run mana acceleration so you win on turn 3-4 rather than asking people named Stax what single card you need 3-4 mana for. Turn 3-4 you should have somewhere in the neighborhood of 8+ mana depending on whether you've got running in terms of untappers, Crossroads, Priest, or some combo thereof.
Oh, got it, i accelerate to turn 3-4, got 8 mana, then i win. Makes sense, convinced me, very good argument.
Then what? makes 4-5 creatures all 2/2 - 3/3? Pumps one mana dork creature to 10/10-20/20 with timberwatch, then what? attack? how you're suppose to hit? How you're supposed to win on 3rd -4th turn? Do you face Goyf, Kird Ape, gobbos or anything threatful?
Taking out the fact that with 14 lands you won't even be able to get out your first mana creature without mulliganing to infinite.
And BTW, competitive decks? Run 4 Fyndhorn and 4 Llanowar for exactly the reasons I'm stating. Admittedly they're more tech'y but they run stuff like Natural Order that I don't feel like dropping money on.
Oh, ok, The tribal elvish Natural Order right? Same deck, same strategy we're talking about.
Not to mention that Natural Order is not even a real competitive deck, just because you need a god hand or a bunch of tutors to make it happens fast enough and make your little dudes worthy, a very disruptable deck.
I think i just can't follow your arguments, so i'll just stop here, and let other guys try to help, since we're not on the same vibe.
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"Now i lay you, down to rest, you'll never be more than second best" (Megadeth)
It's explosive, I considered Jitte but you shouldn't have much issues with an aggro MU.
Imperious Perfect could be swapped with Elvish Champion or a 2/2 split depending how many people in your playgroup plays forests.
Other Elves to consider:
@Halted Asylum:
However regarding NO Elves, I would have to explain how it works.
The deck is composed of Tempo, CA, Mana Production, Aggro and the NO package components.
The Natural Order is a backup plan if one of the other components above fails. Natural Order also allows you sideboard flexibility by having access to cards like Terastodon and Empyrial Archangel. If you want more options mainboard, Deranged Hermit is also an option as a NO target.
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This should help people out who are addressing me in further posts: My name is Tenkai. It's not Tokobo. Thank you. =)
How is topdecking extra mana dorks worse than topdecking extra land?
For my part, I'm not a fan of running 4x Quirion Ranger. (I run 3.) With two or more on the board, you rarely want to use both their abilities as it will put a hurtin' on your land count. Splitting the slot with Wirewood Symbiote seems workable, but I'm wary of adding too many cards that get buried by Sylvan Messenger. Running full playsets of both seems, well... "too techy". However, running both for a total of 5 or 6 could be ideal. I'd like to test that out.
I did a little testing with Bloodline Shaman in my stompy build. Without Crossroads, she starts slower than Elvish Visionary, but she's superior in the long run. I have to train myself to remember her before plotting out mana for the cards I already have in hand.
For my part, I'm not a fan of running 4x Quirion Ranger. (I run 3.) With two or more on the board, you rarely want to use both their abilities as it will put a hurtin' on your land count. Splitting the slot with Wirewood Symbiote seems workable, but I'm wary of adding too many cards that get buried by Sylvan Messenger. Running full playsets of both seems, well... "too techy". However, running both for a total of 5 or 6 could be ideal. I'd like to test that out.
This I can understand. They can get a little useless when you've got too many going, but they are really crucial to the engine of the deck so you want to get SOME. Symbiote, though one of the few non-elves (sadly), lets you run Visionarys through him for a small draw engine, Sylvans for a bigger one, let Priest cast herself with Crossroads on the board for mega mana, etc, etc. And of course Ranger makes playing with low land so much easier. Maybe remove 1 or 2 of them for some Hivemasters or Bloodline Shammies or something?
Hello elf experts, I'm trying to do a GB deck.
The black splash is for Duress, Putrefy and Necropotence (why not!?)
Any other good B cards for an elf deck? I have other 4-5 free slots for support spells.
And I must be missing something, because I do not get why everyone seems to like Vanquishers. Deathtouch is nice, and a 3/3 body for 2 is nice, but compared to other 2 drops?
For my part, I'm not a fan of running 4x Quirion Ranger. (I run 3.) With two or more on the board, you rarely want to use both their abilities as it will put a hurtin' on your land count. Splitting the slot with Wirewood Symbiote seems workable, but I'm wary of adding too many cards that get buried by Sylvan Messenger. Running full playsets of both seems, well... "too techy". However, running both for a total of 5 or 6 could be ideal. I'd like to test that out.
I prefer 1000x Quirion Ranger than a Fyndhorn Elves, specially in a tight mana base, where both will provide 2 mana 2nd turn, but the former can use it's untap ability later to rock on the board.
Wirewood Symbiote is not "techy", it's your answer to spot removal target to the wincons like Joraga/Timberwatch. Or you use this, or you use Steely Resolve, but as the deck works, using cards like Timberwatch Elf, Symbiote is your 4-of protection, not to mention it's ability to untap other cards.
Also it has it's "techy" engines with the CA dudes, or Taunting Elf.
I did a little testing with Bloodline Shaman in my stompy build. Without Crossroads, she starts slower than Elvish Visionary, but she's superior in the long run. I have to train myself to remember her before plotting out mana for the cards I already have in hand.
Yeah, without Crossroads it's a little inferior to Visionary as it's cast. But as you stated, on the long run, it provides more CA. Outside builds as Elves! (combo), i believe Shaman and Sylvan are better CAs than Visionary in other builds.
@Toboko: i know, and how you descripted, that's how Natural Order works. I just answered that way because the way he wrote, seemed that you get Order T3 every turn, and that's not true, except if you add tutors to make it happen through Natural Order.
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"Now i lay you, down to rest, you'll never be more than second best" (Megadeth)
Do you prefer Steely Resolve to Eladamri, Lord of Leaves, Asylum? I guess SR is harder to kill, but with errata Eladamri is an Elf which is nice (and of course, Forestwalk, whatever that's worth).
EDIT - And of course shroud stops Timberwatch, which sucks, but against some decks you need that protection.
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Sry for late reply..
I love Glimpse..when it works. It works pretty often, but not always. It's never really a 'bad' play though.
Perfects, I'm honestly just running for another Lord. He's marginally better than Elvish Champion since he also provides bodies for Heritage Druid. But other than that, he's not really what I'd call 'stellar'. You could replace him I suppose.
But not Glimpse. Nothing else really does what it does. There's Skullclamp of course, but I like Glimpse better. Just 'fits' better, is cheaper to pull off, and doesn't feel quite so dickish.
I think Wellwisher is cute, nothing more. (And life gain still sucks, btw. Even (sorry, fans) here.) He really has no place in a 'serious' build, imo.
==
I'm actively looking for space for 4x Elvish Spirit Guide. I think he def has a role to play...could accelerate me that much more. We'll see..
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I actually have a playset of Spirit Guides in a garbage cheap-Magic Stompy deck I use to teach people the basics of the game. But yeah, look at my list (I quoted it above), would you swap 4 Wellwishers for 4 Glimpses? Even absolute worst case it turns a creature into a cantrip for a mana, and most cases can be a healthy turn 2 or 3 draw.
EDIT - Here's a question. Looking at the Legacy lists (basically what I play for Casual) they prefer Tribal Forcemage to Joraga. Whaddya think?
It's up to the player but personally, I would make that swap in a heartbeat and never look back. But that's only b/c I'm trying out a balls-to-wall (or my attempt at that) approach aggro. I want to just win--fast in a relatively non-interactive fashion. Wellwishers do not (imo) support that goal directly enough (if at all) and I'm not considering them.
Back in the day (Onslaught-era), the last iteration of this deck, I DID run them. Warcaller changed all that, basically. I saw him + Archdruid and I thought to mysef: "OK, let's just not ☺☺☺☺ around anymore and see what that does, eh?"
Now that really is a hard question. He's quite good. I've seen him win games from out of nowhere & he is def on the 'short list' of candidates. If you have a couple and you have room for them, hells yeah run em. But if not, I'm not sure you need to make room for him. He's a turn slower than Joraga, most games. (In having to cast him, then flip him over...) Again, all imo. I think they probably know what they're doing...
But also don't forget, a lot of times they pick cards for meta reasons. I don't know if that's the case here, but maybe. I see Joraga as flat-out superior b/c he scales very well, but I don't know their evaluation process here. It may well be that Forcemage is just waaay better in Legacy.
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Bloodelves
Creatures (20)
1x Inferno Titan
1x Primeval Titan
1x Gaea's Revenge
4x Elvish Archdruid
4x Sylvan Ranger
4x Fauna Shaman
4x Llanowar Elves
Non-creatures (17)
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Fireball
4x Chandra's Outrage
2x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Nature's Spiral
3x Crystal Ball
Lands - (23)
4x Rootbound Crag
8x Forest
8x Mountain
3x Terramorphic Expanse
Sideboard - (15)
3x Acidic Slime
3x Combust
3x Autumn's Veil
2x Fireball
3x Plummet
1x Inferno Titan
And I lol'd at the name, too much WoW
BR RkDW-Aggro | UBR Cruel Grixis-Control
Legacy:
WW Soldier Tribal-Aggro| WW Stax-Control
Modern:
RW Artifact Boros-Aggro | GB The Rock-Midrange
Haha yeah, I don't usually name my decks, but this one just kinda hit me..elves plus fire. And affordability isn't really the issue, I already have all those cards thanks to the 3 M11 boxes (had to trade a Baneslayer for 2 Rootbounds, and Faunas, but other than that had em all).
Aye, once I look to expand the deck (currently it's only M11) I'll be looking at Bloodbraid for sure. Gaea's Revenge will probably go, and the Primeval might as well..I'll look to make the deck a bit faster and such. I'm slightly hesitant to take out the fireballs though, as one of the win conditions of the deck is to have the Archdruids/Llanowars tap for a crapload of mana and fireball for a massive chunk of life.
It just sort of sucks to Cascade into Fireball
I had a thread here over in the Standard section ages ago:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=211995
That was using only T2 cards. Here you have a much larger cardpool.
Yeah I see your point, I like the decks you have in that thread...giving me some ideas/options. I will have to playtest more to decide if I'd rather risk going for the bigger creatures or if I want to make it small for aggro.
I've been following that same discussion and tried him out in my elf stompy. Goldfishing suggested that he was a keeper and I ordered the cards. I don't necessarily see it as an either/or question, though. I've got 47 elves in the stompy and that leaves room for 4 Joraga Warcaller and 3 Tribal Forcemage. Haven't yet tested him against other decks, though. We'll see how well it goes when there's opposition.
My concern (as posted over there) is how to use him when facing another elf deck. A buddy in my playgroup built an elfdrazi deck and he and I like to go head to head. His elves won't benefit from the trample, but they will get the +2/+2 bonus.
@Lunabass,
As Stax suggested, the usual splash for R is to cast Fireball or Banefire. Elf-ball is a combo deck, not an aggro deck. You can go aggro, but it doesn't really gain you much. Pausing to cast a Lightning Bolt, Incinerate, or Blazing Salvo hurts your tempo. While Bloodbraid Ef is certainly an efficient card, cheating a random card onto the battlefield doesn't compare well with something like Sylvan Messenger. Bloodbraids are better in decks where color-screw is a problem. Mono G elves don't really have that problem.
It's not that a deck like that is a bad idea. It would be fun to play. But in terms of being effective, the more traditional elves are likely to be better. That understood, if you like the combination of RG aggro/removal, go digging for a deck archetype named Frog in a Blender. Fun stuff.
BR Sleeper Ascension - Casual
14 Forests
//Creatures (43)
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Priest of Titania
4 Timberwatch Elves
4 Joraga Warcaller
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Wellwisher
4 Heedless One
3 Elvish Visionary
3 Concordant Crossroads
And probably with the Wellwishers replaced by Glimpse, where would you fit Forcemages? As for mirror, that's what sideboards are for, and end of the day the +2/+2 cancels out (effectively) and you still get trampling at least which gives you more fun to play with Timberwatch.
Nope, Forests warrants the deck on rollling, with 14 lands odds are you'll mulligan every single game to drop your land, to then cast Llanowar/Fyndhorn or any other mana generator.
I don't get what you meant about "tech heavy".
I removed Sylvan Messenger to include Bloodline Shaman, which i find more abusive in this deck. a single Sylvan generates 4 cards, while Shaman brings more than that, just by staying into play. The trample is meh and irrelevant, since you can beat unblocked.
Taunting Elf is not there to "protect" an elf, but to let your deck beat unblocked, so it drags gg alot faster, specially with the use of Concordant Crossroads.
From your last list i'd:
-4 Heedless One (bad slow and unnecessary card, your wincon are Timberwatch and Joraga)
-4 Fyndhorn Elves (too much mana generators)
-1 Wellwisher (not needed in multiples, just a staller)
+1 Elvish Visionary (CA, but i prefer Bloodline)
+1 Concordant Crossroads (you just need it)
+3 Taunting Elf (free beating)
+4 Land Grant (helps you on your land demand)
Glimpse will be a slow draw without Crossroads out, stay out of it. It's meant for Heritage Druid / Birchlore Ranger / Nettle Sentinel kind of mana generation.
And if you go -4 Fyndhorn, I'm sorry, you're just wrong. The entire point of the deck is as many of those in the early turns as possible coupled with an untapper or two into your win con on 3 or 4. And if you face any removal at all removing those Fyndhorn basically = Autolose.
3-4? Take a second look at the list, look at your mana curve, 3-4 what for? (rhimed). Joraga? Sylvan? Heedless (eckt!!!)?, Swarm?. If you spend 3 on Joraga, you're doing probably the wrong play.
These spot mana hungry creatures will be suficed by a solid mana base + quirion ranger/llanowar elves (all first drop mana providers you need) + Priest.
Filling your deck with mana dorks will make you less of a threat than you could be, since you'll topdeck non-threat drops almost all the time.
Now about your mana base, 14 forest is too short, if you're not having to mull, than you're a lucking bastard, 'cause that's not common and math goes against it.
Just take a look into competitive decks, and you'll see that they never put their decks into this kind of risk unnecessarily. If you've even playing Glimpse Storm build, then i'd maybe agree with a short land base since every land you draw will stop glimpse, even so you should use ESG, to raise your mana production to 16-18.
I'm sorry, but you're the one doing the wrong move. If you really believe that removing a 1first turn mana dork as Fyndhorn = autose, then we REALLY agree to disagree.
But that's ok, it's your deck not mine, play whatever fits your taste, i gave you all help i could, now it's up to you to build your decks with the cards you want, it's casual anyways.
And BTW, competitive decks? Run 4 Fyndhorn and 4 Llanowar for exactly the reasons I'm stating. Admittedly they're more tech'y but they run stuff like Natural Order that I don't feel like dropping money on.
EDIT - And I really do want to run a 4th Crossroads, but drawing a second is SUCH a wasted card.
Oh, got it, i accelerate to turn 3-4, got 8 mana, then i win. Makes sense, convinced me, very good argument.
Then what? makes 4-5 creatures all 2/2 - 3/3? Pumps one mana dork creature to 10/10-20/20 with timberwatch, then what? attack? how you're suppose to hit? How you're supposed to win on 3rd -4th turn? Do you face Goyf, Kird Ape, gobbos or anything threatful?
Taking out the fact that with 14 lands you won't even be able to get out your first mana creature without mulliganing to infinite.
Oh, ok, The tribal elvish Natural Order right? Same deck, same strategy we're talking about.
Not to mention that Natural Order is not even a real competitive deck, just because you need a god hand or a bunch of tutors to make it happens fast enough and make your little dudes worthy, a very disruptable deck.
I think i just can't follow your arguments, so i'll just stop here, and let other guys try to help, since we're not on the same vibe.
For an aggro elves build, it's quite poor. A sample list for an idea of how to build around would be: Quoting from my post from: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=5293228&postcount=259
If you are interested in running a low land count stompy a suggested list would be:
7 Forest
1 Pendelhaven
// Creatures
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Priest of Titania
4 Talara's Battalion
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Sylvan Messanger
2 Tribal Forcemage
2 Elvish Champion
4 Land Grant
@Halted Asylum:
However regarding NO Elves, I would have to explain how it works.
The deck is composed of Tempo, CA, Mana Production, Aggro and the NO package components.
The Natural Order is a backup plan if one of the other components above fails. Natural Order also allows you sideboard flexibility by having access to cards like Terastodon and Empyrial Archangel. If you want more options mainboard, Deranged Hermit is also an option as a NO target.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
For my part, I'm not a fan of running 4x Quirion Ranger. (I run 3.) With two or more on the board, you rarely want to use both their abilities as it will put a hurtin' on your land count. Splitting the slot with Wirewood Symbiote seems workable, but I'm wary of adding too many cards that get buried by Sylvan Messenger. Running full playsets of both seems, well... "too techy". However, running both for a total of 5 or 6 could be ideal. I'd like to test that out.
I did a little testing with Bloodline Shaman in my stompy build. Without Crossroads, she starts slower than Elvish Visionary, but she's superior in the long run. I have to train myself to remember her before plotting out mana for the cards I already have in hand.
BR Sleeper Ascension - Casual
That's simply not true. At all.
This I can understand. They can get a little useless when you've got too many going, but they are really crucial to the engine of the deck so you want to get SOME. Symbiote, though one of the few non-elves (sadly), lets you run Visionarys through him for a small draw engine, Sylvans for a bigger one, let Priest cast herself with Crossroads on the board for mega mana, etc, etc. And of course Ranger makes playing with low land so much easier. Maybe remove 1 or 2 of them for some Hivemasters or Bloodline Shammies or something?
Maybe thoughtseize and Engineered Plague?
Also, what types of elves are you running? Combo or Aggro? Or even Survival Elves, NO Elves and like?
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
And I must be missing something, because I do not get why everyone seems to like Vanquishers. Deathtouch is nice, and a 3/3 body for 2 is nice, but compared to other 2 drops?
That's all about mana base. Without your first forest, even if you have 200 first turn mana dorks, you won't play, that's it.
But you don't need to use Forest, you can use Land Grant / ESG, in fact, as i mentioned earlier, i prefer 8 forest + 4 ESG + 4 Land Grant.
I prefer 1000x Quirion Ranger than a Fyndhorn Elves, specially in a tight mana base, where both will provide 2 mana 2nd turn, but the former can use it's untap ability later to rock on the board.
Wirewood Symbiote is not "techy", it's your answer to spot removal target to the wincons like Joraga/Timberwatch. Or you use this, or you use Steely Resolve, but as the deck works, using cards like Timberwatch Elf, Symbiote is your 4-of protection, not to mention it's ability to untap other cards.
Also it has it's "techy" engines with the CA dudes, or Taunting Elf.
Yeah, without Crossroads it's a little inferior to Visionary as it's cast. But as you stated, on the long run, it provides more CA. Outside builds as Elves! (combo), i believe Shaman and Sylvan are better CAs than Visionary in other builds.
@Toboko: i know, and how you descripted, that's how Natural Order works. I just answered that way because the way he wrote, seemed that you get Order T3 every turn, and that's not true, except if you add tutors to make it happen through Natural Order.
EDIT - And of course shroud stops Timberwatch, which sucks, but against some decks you need that protection.