We are discussing the situation. If you purposely use your opponent's mistakes in regards to mandatory actions for an advantage without informing your opponent, you are breaking the rules. If you didn't know this before coming to this thread, you should reread the floor rules before participating in your next tournament.
Well I can just say that I thought it was a MAY ability and get away with it.
"Hooray for ignorance. Your opponent misses a Dark Confidant trigger? Oh, I thought it was a may ability. I don't play with DC. Opponent misses a bitterblossom token? Sorry bud, I don't play fae. Thought it was a may ability."
Well I can just say that I thought it was a MAY ability and get away with it.
"Hooray for ignorance. Your opponent misses a Dark Confidant trigger? Oh, I thought it was a may ability. I don't play with DC. Opponent misses a bitterblossom token? Sorry bud, I don't play fae. Thought it was a may ability."
Such the nature of the beast in a game where there is much self-policing.
Honestly, if I'm playing for something like this and my opponent is too dumb to remember to put out Bitterblossom tokens, then whatever. Also, the Dark Confident trigger can't be missed and is easily resolved, they lose life equal to a randomly revealed card in hand.
The lesson of the story is? Play tighter and you'll win more games. No excuses.
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Team Brolo
PTQ Honolulu Top 8, 2010 Wisconsin Regionals 2nd place
After sleeping on this I know how everyone could have missed the trigger and the reason is WHO THE HELL OUT RACES A PROGENITUS! Van deserved to lose for the simple fact that he told his opponent that he had the Angel of Despair in hand thus the reason that Kibler did not put it into play with hypergenesis.
Such the nature of the beast in a game where there is much self-policing.
Honestly, if I'm playing for something like this and my opponent is too dumb to remember to put out Bitterblossom tokens, then whatever. Also, the Dark Confident trigger can't be missed and is easily resolved, they lose life equal to a randomly revealed card in hand.
The lesson of the story is? Play tighter and you'll win more games. No excuses.
Can you explain the part about bitterblossom's tokens? Im not a english speaker and I am confused about what you meant there. Would you remind your oppo or not?
I have before. So probably. But bitterblossom is a card with a negative effect also.
No one misses Bitterblossom triggers on accident anyways because its such a good card that happens every turn. Only missed if they want to avoid losing the life.
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Team Brolo
PTQ Honolulu Top 8, 2010 Wisconsin Regionals 2nd place
So a trigger was missed, overlooked ... whatever. Would it have changed the outcome? Probably not. wotc has Judges watching games to do the trigger catching don't they? Maybe he was worrying about how to win a match to win 40k in cash? Damn its over with, let the guy enjoy his win.
So a trigger was missed, overlooked ... whatever. Would it have changed the outcome? Probably not. wotc has Judges watching games to do the trigger catching don't they? Maybe he was worrying about how to win a match to win 40k in cash? Damn its over with, let the guy enjoy his win.
Yes it would change the outcome and that is the discussion. He would lose the game, duh.
PTs are what the players aim for and it is an example of how the game should be played.
As someone said earlier, the judges aren't there to enforce rules and that is another thing that should be changed. Rule mistakes in a top 8 of a premier event that promote the game are ridiculous.
So a trigger was missed, overlooked ... whatever. Would it have changed the outcome? Probably not. wotc has Judges watching games to do the trigger catching don't they? Maybe he was worrying about how to win a match to win 40k in cash? Damn its over with, let the guy enjoy his win.
Lol just wanted to point out that YES it would have changed the outcome. this was in the 5th and final game, if the angel of despair trigger had occured and destroyed a meddling mage, I believe that he had both Putrefy and Firespout in hand, so he could of killed the BSA, and won the match.
However, I really dont blame kibler. Theres no real reason to think he noticed it. At that point, without a BSA being dropped by Kibler, the trigger seemed to not matter. With a progenitus being dropped on the board, and Kibler being so happy that his Angel was safe, i really can imagine killing 1 of 3 meddling mages slip under the table. it just seems very inconsequential at that point, it isnt part of Kiblers or Ev's plan to win. I think it is just Ev's fault for not paying attention
And I just dont get why Ev told Kibler that he had the ANgel. I really like ppl that play magic in a more casual air, aren't uptight with anything, and so normally its fine., but on pro tour sunday, giving your opponent information that is clearly VERY beneficial is dumb. Ev knew kibler had BSA, and youd hope as a pro he'd come to the very simple conclusion that if he had it, and he knew ev had the angel, that he wouldnt hypergenesis it out.
Judges SHOULD be there to enforce rules as I see them doing all the time. Facts are noone knows he did it on purpose and his opponent forgot the trigger so I for one will not call the man a cheater based on what I saw, there are a millions things that could have happened that would make the answers simple. He could have missed it? Both could have missed it? I do not know, noone here knows.
Instead of making him look like a total ass I saw let it go and let him enjoy the win, hell he has played some out standing MtG these last two PT's and if anyone should have won it should have been him.
PS: Why are people not blaming the JUDGES for this blunder? Why are they there in the first place? They are supposed to be there to make sure the matches are played correctly ... right? I am not pro but I mean really, why do we bother having judges sit right at the table if we cannot blame them for something like this, I thought that was there job?
First of all van telling kibler about the angel isn't a masterful play or big punt by anyone. You take turns with hypergenesis, so you are going to know whether he has AoD before you have to decide whether to put Baneslayer into play.
There is no doubt that kibler knew there was a trigger, whether he thought it was optional is more up for debate. Personally I think he knew.
And just to be clear, if van hits a land, kibler is actually just 0 outed. ie. the match is over.
First of all van telling kibler about the angel isn't a masterful play or big punt by anyone. You take turns with hypergenesis, so you are going to know whether he has AoD before you have to decide whether to put Baneslayer into play.
There is no doubt that kibler knew there was a trigger, whether he thought it was optional is more up for debate. Personally I think he knew.
And just to be clear, if van hits a land, kibler is actually just 0 outed. ie. the match is over.
"Personally I think he knew"
Baseless opinion. Who cares? Facts over. Van misplayed and lost because of it. The end.
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Team Brolo
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Judges SHOULD be there to enforce rules as I see them doing all the time. Facts are noone knows he did it on purpose and his opponent forgot the trigger so I for one will not call the man a cheater based on what I saw, there are a millions things that could have happened that would make the answers simple. He could have missed it? Both could have missed it? I do not know, noone here knows.
Instead of making him look like a total ass I saw let it go and let him enjoy the win, hell he has played some out standing MtG these last two PT's and if anyone should have won it should have been him.
PS: Why are people not blaming the JUDGES for this blunder? Why are they there in the first place? They are supposed to be there to make sure the matches are played correctly ... right? I am not pro but I mean really, why do we bother having judges sit right at the table if we cannot blame them for something like this, I thought that was there job?
As I said before, judges are NOT there to prevent you from screwing up, just to catch you when you do and then apply the necessary corrections/penalties, just like a refferee in a soccer game isn't constantly shouting at players "don't use your hands to catch the ball!" we don't step in if an infraction is about to happen, we step in when we see an infraction actually happen.
Our job is NOT to babysit you and make sure you don't screw up. That's YOUR job. When you do screw up, we fix things. Like I said a few posts back, we sometimes miss things. It just happens, especially after working three 14-hour days doing a myriad of tasks that help run the +400 player tournament and all of the public events smoothly, while taking very few and short breaks and running on little sleep. You try doing that and then sit down for a best-out-of-5 match and see how closely you follow every move.
I think people are missing the point here... Kibler knew about the trigger, Kibler played around it, THEN forgot about it in less than 30 seconds? What is he, a goldfish?
Van should've won if he didn't miss that trigger. Heck, if they were playing MTGO, IT WOULDN'T BE MISSED AT ALL, as the game will remind them about the trigger.
Maybe the Top 8 should be played MTGO live style in the future so we can avoid all these unnecessarily rules misses? (intentional or not intentional)
Well, either way, if Van won even if BSA didn't enter the battlefield and still missed that trigger, I don't think Van would've deserved to win with how he handled that situation as well.
Kibler may have won, but it's not a convincing victory. The only thing he convinced me with is that Rubin Zoo was good against Zoo.
But I think this will only be the case for now. I don't think the deck will be as good as it was showcased here once the Meta becomes more stabilized.
One thing though, Molten Rain seem to now have become a relevant card choice to run in Zoo. With a little tweak, Any deck that runs red right now, with adding Molten Rain, I think it will have serious game against anything in the meta.
Could DragonStompy be back in extended once again?
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I think people are missing the point here... Kibler knew about the trigger, Kibler played around it, THEN forgot about it in less than 30 seconds? What is he, a goldfish?
Kibler may have won, but it's not a convincing victory. The only thing he convinced me with is that Rubin Zoo was good against Zoo.
But I think this will only be the case for now. I don't think the deck will be as good as it was showcased here once the Meta becomes more stabilized.
have you played with the deck yet? it's not only good against other zoos, it's also good against NLU and affinity to shoot down their small critters. it's also good against dredge's zombie tokens. you can also play punishing fire + bolt for 3 mana on goyf or baneslayer and doesn't even count as 2 for 1.
Have you ever triggered Dark Confidant one turn, then forgot to the next?
It really isn't that farfetched.
This crying about cheating is so tired. Do you like personally know Van or something?
And no, it shouldn't be played MTGO, because you miss the human aspect, the bluffing and reading, and it's also incredibly boring to watch.
Dude, I don't know Van, and from what I've seen, I'm pretty sure he's just glad it's all over too.
I don't really care if it was cheating or not, but my gripe is that the thing that had to happen (triggered ability) didn't happen. Case in point, this Mistake makes the game inconsistent, therefore is a bad thing for the game.
I'm okay with all the bluffing and reading. And it's not something that can't be done online. You can do all that too in MTGO Live. The only thing you're really be losing is the cards, the shuffling, and inconsistency.
@zero
I've played a couple of games against the deck. (8 or 9 games I think?) The only problem it has is that, Game 1, against combo decks, it can't keep up if the game becomes non-interactive. Hypergenesis has game against it and meddling mage is the only problem. Dragonstorm also beats it if BSA doesn't enter the battlefield.
Overall, I think it's quite good. I don't think Dragonstorm will be played, but as long as the deck avoids Hypergenesis as much as possible, I think the deck can dominate.
I think at the Top 8 at a PT-grade event, there should be judge rule enforcement. It's not a stretch to put 2-3 judges in place to keep track of triggers and the like. However, even that is not foolproof; look at just about any major sport, mistakes are made both by players and referees. In any kind of contest where the game state constantly changes, if something is missed, you just have to play on.
In the absence of judge enforcement, the real argument here seems to be whether it is fraud if somebody notices his opponent has missed a trigger and intentionally does not say anything. I'd argue that this is part of the interaction between opponents and their respective knowledge of the game and rules. If I notice my opponent has neglected a trigger that will help him, do I speak up? No, he made an error, and it is his error to live with. When I make the same errors -- and I do, most of us do from time to time -- I'd expect the same.
Ultimately the way things are right now it is up to the player, but it is not fraud, IMO. I think it really should fall to the judges to enforce, though, so that this kind of silliness does not arise. And if it does, we can just blame the judges, just like in baseball/football/soccer/you name it.
While I was driving to work today I was thinking about this situation and I came to the conclusion that Kibler must have thought it was a "may" ability. I know that point was already discussed, but when a game nearly comes to an end E.G. Progenitus hits the table I am sure you are probably trying to think about every possible way to survive. Obviously knowing that Angel of Despair was coming out would definitely keep Baneslayer Angel in hand. I think that Kibler thought it was a "may" ability and on his turn he should have read the card because it either "had to resolve properly" or was a "may ability" it would not have hurt him to look. I feel confident that I would have looked thinking, "I wonder why he didn't kill Meddling Mage or Noble Hierarch?"
On the other hand; Yes. Judges are human, but this was a pretty gross oversight. As a judge (if I were one) I would hope that I would think to myself "Why didn't Van kill something?" Then I would have looked at the card and realized Van HAD to kill something. Overall this is a bad situation, not simply poor play, but really poor adjudication.
I am fully willing to concede that Kibler mistakenly thought Angel of Despair's ability was optional.
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Well I can just say that I thought it was a MAY ability and get away with it.
"Hooray for ignorance. Your opponent misses a Dark Confidant trigger? Oh, I thought it was a may ability. I don't play with DC. Opponent misses a bitterblossom token? Sorry bud, I don't play fae. Thought it was a may ability."
Can we have this discussion merged with this:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=192956&page=2
Yes, you could. However, if it is found out your intention was different then you will be penalized. This is entirely up to the judge's discretion.
Such the nature of the beast in a game where there is much self-policing.
Honestly, if I'm playing for something like this and my opponent is too dumb to remember to put out Bitterblossom tokens, then whatever. Also, the Dark Confident trigger can't be missed and is easily resolved, they lose life equal to a randomly revealed card in hand.
The lesson of the story is? Play tighter and you'll win more games. No excuses.
Team Brolo
PTQ Honolulu Top 8, 2010 Wisconsin Regionals 2nd place
Can you explain the part about bitterblossom's tokens? Im not a english speaker and I am confused about what you meant there. Would you remind your oppo or not?
No one misses Bitterblossom triggers on accident anyways because its such a good card that happens every turn. Only missed if they want to avoid losing the life.
Team Brolo
PTQ Honolulu Top 8, 2010 Wisconsin Regionals 2nd place
No kidding. Not like people haven't missed it before.
Team Brolo
PTQ Honolulu Top 8, 2010 Wisconsin Regionals 2nd place
was listing the effect for xiko, since he asked what it was.
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Yes it would change the outcome and that is the discussion. He would lose the game, duh.
PTs are what the players aim for and it is an example of how the game should be played.
As someone said earlier, the judges aren't there to enforce rules and that is another thing that should be changed. Rule mistakes in a top 8 of a premier event that promote the game are ridiculous.
Lol just wanted to point out that YES it would have changed the outcome. this was in the 5th and final game, if the angel of despair trigger had occured and destroyed a meddling mage, I believe that he had both Putrefy and Firespout in hand, so he could of killed the BSA, and won the match.
However, I really dont blame kibler. Theres no real reason to think he noticed it. At that point, without a BSA being dropped by Kibler, the trigger seemed to not matter. With a progenitus being dropped on the board, and Kibler being so happy that his Angel was safe, i really can imagine killing 1 of 3 meddling mages slip under the table. it just seems very inconsequential at that point, it isnt part of Kiblers or Ev's plan to win. I think it is just Ev's fault for not paying attention
And I just dont get why Ev told Kibler that he had the ANgel. I really like ppl that play magic in a more casual air, aren't uptight with anything, and so normally its fine., but on pro tour sunday, giving your opponent information that is clearly VERY beneficial is dumb. Ev knew kibler had BSA, and youd hope as a pro he'd come to the very simple conclusion that if he had it, and he knew ev had the angel, that he wouldnt hypergenesis it out.
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Instead of making him look like a total ass I saw let it go and let him enjoy the win, hell he has played some out standing MtG these last two PT's and if anyone should have won it should have been him.
PS: Why are people not blaming the JUDGES for this blunder? Why are they there in the first place? They are supposed to be there to make sure the matches are played correctly ... right? I am not pro but I mean really, why do we bother having judges sit right at the table if we cannot blame them for something like this, I thought that was there job?
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There is no doubt that kibler knew there was a trigger, whether he thought it was optional is more up for debate. Personally I think he knew.
And just to be clear, if van hits a land, kibler is actually just 0 outed. ie. the match is over.
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"Personally I think he knew"
Baseless opinion. Who cares? Facts over. Van misplayed and lost because of it. The end.
Team Brolo
PTQ Honolulu Top 8, 2010 Wisconsin Regionals 2nd place
As I said before, judges are NOT there to prevent you from screwing up, just to catch you when you do and then apply the necessary corrections/penalties, just like a refferee in a soccer game isn't constantly shouting at players "don't use your hands to catch the ball!" we don't step in if an infraction is about to happen, we step in when we see an infraction actually happen.
Our job is NOT to babysit you and make sure you don't screw up. That's YOUR job. When you do screw up, we fix things. Like I said a few posts back, we sometimes miss things. It just happens, especially after working three 14-hour days doing a myriad of tasks that help run the +400 player tournament and all of the public events smoothly, while taking very few and short breaks and running on little sleep. You try doing that and then sit down for a best-out-of-5 match and see how closely you follow every move.
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Van should've won if he didn't miss that trigger. Heck, if they were playing MTGO, IT WOULDN'T BE MISSED AT ALL, as the game will remind them about the trigger.
Maybe the Top 8 should be played MTGO live style in the future so we can avoid all these unnecessarily rules misses? (intentional or not intentional)
Well, either way, if Van won even if BSA didn't enter the battlefield and still missed that trigger, I don't think Van would've deserved to win with how he handled that situation as well.
Kibler may have won, but it's not a convincing victory. The only thing he convinced me with is that Rubin Zoo was good against Zoo.
But I think this will only be the case for now. I don't think the deck will be as good as it was showcased here once the Meta becomes more stabilized.
One thing though, Molten Rain seem to now have become a relevant card choice to run in Zoo. With a little tweak, Any deck that runs red right now, with adding Molten Rain, I think it will have serious game against anything in the meta.
Could DragonStompy be back in extended once again?
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It really isn't that farfetched.
This crying about cheating is so tired. Do you like personally know Van or something?
And no, it shouldn't be played MTGO, because you miss the human aspect, the bluffing and reading, and it's also incredibly boring to watch.
Team Brolo
PTQ Honolulu Top 8, 2010 Wisconsin Regionals 2nd place
Hahahhaha
thanks
have you played with the deck yet? it's not only good against other zoos, it's also good against NLU and affinity to shoot down their small critters. it's also good against dredge's zombie tokens. you can also play punishing fire + bolt for 3 mana on goyf or baneslayer and doesn't even count as 2 for 1.
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Dude, I don't know Van, and from what I've seen, I'm pretty sure he's just glad it's all over too.
I don't really care if it was cheating or not, but my gripe is that the thing that had to happen (triggered ability) didn't happen. Case in point, this Mistake makes the game inconsistent, therefore is a bad thing for the game.
I'm okay with all the bluffing and reading. And it's not something that can't be done online. You can do all that too in MTGO Live. The only thing you're really be losing is the cards, the shuffling, and inconsistency.
@zero
I've played a couple of games against the deck. (8 or 9 games I think?) The only problem it has is that, Game 1, against combo decks, it can't keep up if the game becomes non-interactive. Hypergenesis has game against it and meddling mage is the only problem. Dragonstorm also beats it if BSA doesn't enter the battlefield.
Overall, I think it's quite good. I don't think Dragonstorm will be played, but as long as the deck avoids Hypergenesis as much as possible, I think the deck can dominate.
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But then again, I'm completely against MTGO for anything but draft practice.
Team Brolo
PTQ Honolulu Top 8, 2010 Wisconsin Regionals 2nd place
In the absence of judge enforcement, the real argument here seems to be whether it is fraud if somebody notices his opponent has missed a trigger and intentionally does not say anything. I'd argue that this is part of the interaction between opponents and their respective knowledge of the game and rules. If I notice my opponent has neglected a trigger that will help him, do I speak up? No, he made an error, and it is his error to live with. When I make the same errors -- and I do, most of us do from time to time -- I'd expect the same.
Ultimately the way things are right now it is up to the player, but it is not fraud, IMO. I think it really should fall to the judges to enforce, though, so that this kind of silliness does not arise. And if it does, we can just blame the judges, just like in baseball/football/soccer/you name it.
On the other hand; Yes. Judges are human, but this was a pretty gross oversight. As a judge (if I were one) I would hope that I would think to myself "Why didn't Van kill something?" Then I would have looked at the card and realized Van HAD to kill something. Overall this is a bad situation, not simply poor play, but really poor adjudication.
I am fully willing to concede that Kibler mistakenly thought Angel of Despair's ability was optional.