Until recently, I have always thought that preordain was the best out of the the three, followed by ponder, and finally brainstorm. But as I post more and read more on the forums, I keep hearing that ponder is better than preordain.
Why is that? Personally, I think it is better to scry 2, pick one good card, put the other not so good atm card on the bottom than it is to look at the top 3, see you want one of them but the other two are crap and be forced to either take the one card, and wait around a few turns or shuffle your deck and see what happens.
Am I missing something? what is it that makes ponder supreme to preordain?
Brainstorm is the best out of the three, hands down. Preordain is probably slightly better then Ponder, but if your said it the other way around it wouldnt make a difference to me.
They're very dependent on the deck you're playing.
First of all, Brainstorm is an instant, which automatically makes it better than a sorcery. However, they all have very different ways of interacting with the top of your deck.
So, if your deck likes drawing cards, as in you're playing cards like Lorescale Coatl or Psychosis Crawler, then running Brainstorm is better because you draw 3 cards. However, you have to put two cards from your hand onto the top of your library, so it is only "digging" 1 card deep. That means you're only seeing 1 card further than you normally would, which isn't the greatest. If you have fetchlands (Misty Rainforest, Flooded Strand, Evolving Wilds etc) then you can shuffle away the two cards you put on the top of your library. Generally speaking you'll want to put 2 cards from your hand that you don't need and shuffle them away.
Ponder also pseudo-"digs" you 3 cards deep, allowing you to set up your next draws, or gamble and shuffle away whatever is on top to draw a random card. It's good if you want to chain draws in a combo deck like Storm. Ponder is good if your deck likes shuffling, and it's good because it has a built in shuffle effect. It's slower than Brainstorm because you can only cast it on your turn. Generally you will want to use this with other shuffle effects like fetchlands because you will pick the best of the three to draw, and then put the 2 cards you don't need back on the top of your library. If they're really bad, you'll want a way to shuffle them into your library in the hopes that you'll draw something better.
Lastly, Preordain is the card to use if your deck does not have, or does not need fetchlands. It can arrange the top of your deck by itself, but only lets you see 2 cards. It's also a sorcery so it can only be played on your turn. Basically you can choose the best of 2 cards, or gamble and draw a random card. Whatever choice you make, you can put the worst card, or cards, on the bottom of your library, effectively getting rid of them for the time being.
So what it comes down to is the deck you're running, do you have fetchlands? do you want to play spells on your opponent's turn? do you want to dig as deep as you can? or do you want to set up draws?
People have touched on a lot of key points, but there's still important aspects of the cards that are being overlooked.
First of all, Preordain is typically the best of the 3 if your deck doesn't any efficient shuffle effects (which tend to be fetchlands such as Verdant Catacombs). While the card doesn't dig as deep + isn't as versatile (more on this later) as the others, it will never strand dead cards on top of your library. If you see 2 cards that you like love/hate, you can always keep them or ship them both to the bottom. If you see 1 that you want and 1 that you don't, you get the keep the important spell while ditching the other. That's something that you cannot do with Ponder (unless you have a shuffle effect obviously). If you Ponder into 1 card that you really need, but 2 otherwise dead cards (lands for example), then keeping the good card also forces you to keep the 2 bad ones. Again, this is just horrible without a shuffle effect. As such, Preordain is typically better for newer players or budget decks, because the card is a "jack of all trades, but master of none." It has the highest lows and the lowest highs, it's right in that happy middle zone. It's a very good card to add to Control decks in general, since it helps them smooth out their draws and can allow them to cheat their land counts slightly. Again, the beautiful part about the card is that it doesn't need any support. You can blindly jam 4 of them into your Control decks and it can't really come back to bite you. It's just a solid spell that will never blow your mind, but it's not going to break your back either.
That being said, Ponder is still typically better than Preordain in Combo decks, or if your deck has some efficient shuffling effects (such as fetchlands). For Combo decks, Ponder can virtually "dig" up to 4 cards (look at 3, shuffle, look at 1), which is important if you're just looking for 1 specific spell. I'll use the basic example of Splinter Twin + Pestermite. Once you assemble this 2 card combo, you just plain win on the spot. So, even though Pondering can "strand" dead cards on top of your deck, that doesn't matter when the card that you're looking for straight up wins the game. If you have a Pestermite in play, you're going to Ponder specifically to find Twin. You will not see 1 good card and 2 bad ones and be upset, because the good one is enough to win the game. If you don't see Twin, then you'll almost always be shuffling to see a 4th card. So, in those instances, it virtually digs 1 card further than Preordain and Brainstorm. In case it isn't clear as to why that is, I'll briefly explain. Preordain would only dig you 3 cards (look at 2, ship them both to the bottom, look at 1), and Brainstorm would also only let you dig up to 3 cards (look at 3, hide 2). So, if your deck is just plain looking to find 1 spell to win the game, then Ponder has the highest potential of all 3 to find it. Outside of combo decks (ones with fetchlands), it's still a solid card. The issue of looking at 1-2 good cards but 1-2 dead cards doesn't actually matter when you can shuffle away cards that you're not looking to draw. That drawback of stranding dead cards is instantly circumvented, and so the card starts to feel much more powerful than Preordain. You get to see more cards with it if needed, and you can still Control your draws perfectly.
Brainstorm, while it's easily the best of the 3 cards if played properly (overall that is, it's not strictly better or anything), is also the most misplayed card of all time. First of all, and let me make this explicitly clear, it's almost never right to play it at end of turn. I don't care what you think you know about Magic, or how good of a player that you think you are, but if you're consistently playing Brainstorm at EOT then you're playing it wrong. Period. Magic is a game of information and inches. Every piece of information that you gather before making your decisions is crucial. As "seductive" as it may seem to B.Storm at EOT, master players know that waiting to see what they draw is going to be the right decision way more often than not. Every additional card that you can see, for free, before you play your B.Storm helps you sculpt the perfect hand/allows you to make better decisions. Saving that 1 mana is far less important than seeing that 1 extra card on your draw step. Otherwise, B.Storm functions a lot like Ponder. The card isn't actually very good unless you have access to shuffle effects, because all you're really doing is stranding useless cards on top of your deck otherwise. Sadly, it doesn't have the built in shuffle effect that Ponder has, so it's actually weaker at digging for a specific combo piece than Ponder is in that sense. Now, let's be clear about something though. A correctly played Brainstorm can be a "good" Ancestral Recall at times. Some people might look at that and scratch their heads, but it's true. Ancestral Recall can't hide Jace/Tinker on the top of your library if an opponent is Thoughtseizeing you, so there are actually times when it's more useful to be able to "hide" important spells. On other occasions, where you have multiple dead cards in hand (lands for example) and a fetchland in play, it basically feels like you're paying 1 mana to draw 3 cards. It's a ridiculously powerful spell in the right hands, and that's why it's so ubiquitous in formats such as Legacy. Still, in the hands of a novice, it's actually one of the weaker spells in the game. It basically doesn't do anything if you're not using it properly. It easily has the highest highs, but it also has the lowest lows by far. I do not recommend playing this card unless everything that I've just said a) meant nothing to you because you already knew it, or b) struck a chord with you and legitimately changed your point of view about the card and how you'll play it.
So, it really depends on what your deck is trying to do and how it's built. No shuffle effects + not a combo deck? Preordain is your man. No shuffle effects + a combo deck? I'd roll with Ponder. Plenty of shuffle effects + any kind of deck? Brainstorm is easily the best of the 3 when played correctly and supported properly. Still, and I can't stress this enough, I'd be willing to bet that most people who play Brainstorm play it horribly wrong. EOT Brainstorm is the wrong play 95% of the time. Brainstorms without shuffle effects/dead cards to shuffle away are wrong a fair amount of the time. If you're just playing B.Storm because someone told you that it's amazing card, then you probably haven't experienced its true potential.
People have touched on a lot of key points, but there's still important aspects of the cards that are being overlooked.
First of all, Preordain is typically the best of the 3 if your deck doesn't any efficient shuffle effects (which tend to be fetchlands such as Verdant Catacombs). While the card doesn't dig nearly as deep as the others, it will never strand you with dead cards. If you see 2 cards that you like love/hate, you can always keep them or ship them both to the bottom. If you see 1 that you want and 1 that you don't, you get the keep the important spell while ditching the other. That's something that you cannot do with Ponder (unless you have a shuffle effect obviously). If you Ponder into 1 card that you really need, but 2 otherwise dead cards (lands for example), then keeping the good card also forces you to keep the 2 bad ones. Again, this is just horrible without a shuffle effect. As such, Preordain is typically better for newer players or budget decks, because the card is a "jack of all trades, but master of none." It has the highest lows and the lowest highs, it's right in that happy middle zone.
That being said, Ponder is still typically better than Preordain in combo decks. Ponder can virtually "dig" up to 4 cards (look at 3, shuffle, look at 1), which is important if you're just looking for 1 specific spell. I'll use the basic example of Splinter Twin + Pestermite. Once you assemble this 2 card combo, you just plain win on the spot. So, even though Pondering can "strand" 2 dead cards on top of your deck, that doesn't matter when the card that you're looking for straight up wins the game. If you have a Pestermite in play, you're going to Ponder specifically to find Twin. You will not see 1 good card and 2 bad ones and be upset, because the good one is enough to win the game. If you don't see Twin, then you'll almost always be shuffling to see a 4th card. So, in those instances, it virtually digs twice as far as Preordain.
Brainstorm, while it's easily the best of the 3 cards if played properly, is also the most misplayed card of all time. First of all, and let me make this explicitly clear it's almost never right to play it at end of turn. I don't care what you think you know, or how good a player that you think you are, but if you're consistently playing Brainstorm at EOT then you're probably playing it horribly wrong. Magic is a game of information and inches. Every piece of information that you gather before making your decisions is crucial. As "seductive" as it may seem to B.Storm at EOT, master players know that waiting to see what they draw is going to be the right decision way more often than not. Every additional card that you can see, for free, before you play your B.Storm helps you sculpt the perfect hand/allows you to make the perfect plays that much more. Otherwise, B.Storm functions a lot like Ponder. The card isn't actually very good unless you have access to shuffle effects, because all you're really doing is stranding useless cards on top of your deck otherwise. Sadly, it doesn't have the built in shuffle effect that Ponder has, so it's actually weaker at digging for a specific combo piece than Ponder is in that sense. Now, let's be clear about something though. A correctly played Brainstorm can be a "good" Ancestral Recall at times. Some people might look at that and scratch their heads, but it's true. Ancestral Recall can't hide Jace/Tinker on the top of your library if an opponent is Thoughtseizeing you, so there are actually times when it's more useful to be able to "hide" important spells. On other occasions when you have multiple dead cards in hand (lands for example) and a fetchland in play, it basically feels like you're paying 1 mana to draw 3 cards.
So, it really depends on what your deck is trying to do and how it's built. No shuffle effects + not a combo deck? Preordain is your man. No shuffle effects + a combo deck? I'd roll with Ponder. Plenty of shuffle effects + any kind of deck? Brainstorm is easily the best of the 3 when played correctly and supported properly. Still, and I can't stress this enough, I'd be willing to bet that most people who play Brainstorm play it horribly wrong. EOT Brainstorm is the wrong play 95% of the time. Brainstorms without shuffle effects/dead cards to shuffle away are wrong a fair amount of the time. If you're just playing B.Storm because someone told you that it's amazing card, then you probably haven't experienced its true potential.
I have a question regarding this: why would you ever play brainstorm at the end of turn? maybe the first turn? otherwise, I can't really think of why. what scenarios are under the 5% of the time it is proper to play it at the end of turn?
You're probably right, maybe saying 5% was giving it too much credit. I just didn't want to say 100% because that's clearly not the case. Some examples would be if your opponent had a Rule of Law in play and you had to dig for Echoing Truth so that you could combo off on your turn, or if you wanted to slam Jace down on your turn but wanted to dig into some counter magic (if possible) but you wouldn't be able to B.Storm + Jace + hold up mana for counters on your turn. And like, maybe you need that Jace to stick because otherwise you're going to die to Emrakul, the Aeons Torn or something. It could be do or die. Probably not the best examples, but it's not IMPOSSIBLE for it to be the right play. It's just veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery rare.
It's virtually never right to B.Storm on turn 1 unless you REALLY need to dig into a land so that you can like Entomb + Reanimate on turn 2 or something (maybe to win the game before that combo decks goes off in your face). Super rare, niche cases at best. Even then I don't think that it's the right play, but maybe in some cases it could be. I don't play Reanimator/ANT/TPS enough to know for sure. I'd just always rather wait until turn 2 so that I could play a fetch and then mainphase B.Storm. I won't pretend like I have million games with every deck under my belt or anything, but I can't think of many "good" arguments to roll it out on turn 1 (I'm purposely ignoring situations where you're trying to dig for a Force of Will/Daze to counter game winning spells obviously, since plays like that are clearly correct 100% of the time).
People have touched on a lot of key points, but there's still important aspects of the cards that are being overlooked.
First of all, Preordain is typically the best of the 3 if your deck doesn't any efficient shuffle effects (which tend to be fetchlands such as Verdant Catacombs). While the card doesn't dig nearly as deep as the others, it will never strand you with dead cards. If you see 2 cards that you like love/hate, you can always keep them or ship them both to the bottom. If you see 1 that you want and 1 that you don't, you get the keep the important spell while ditching the other. That's something that you cannot do with Ponder (unless you have a shuffle effect obviously). If you Ponder into 1 card that you really need, but 2 otherwise dead cards (lands for example), then keeping the good card also forces you to keep the 2 bad ones. Again, this is just horrible without a shuffle effect. As such, Preordain is typically better for newer players or budget decks, because the card is a "jack of all trades, but master of none." It has the highest lows and the lowest highs, it's right in that happy middle zone.
That being said, Ponder is still typically better than Preordain in combo decks. Ponder can virtually "dig" up to 4 cards (look at 3, shuffle, look at 1), which is important if you're just looking for 1 specific spell. I'll use the basic example of Splinter Twin + Pestermite. Once you assemble this 2 card combo, you just plain win on the spot. So, even though Pondering can "strand" 2 dead cards on top of your deck, that doesn't matter when the card that you're looking for straight up wins the game. If you have a Pestermite in play, you're going to Ponder specifically to find Twin. You will not see 1 good card and 2 bad ones and be upset, because the good one is enough to win the game. If you don't see Twin, then you'll almost always be shuffling to see a 4th card. So, in those instances, it virtually digs twice as far as Preordain.
Brainstorm, while it's easily the best of the 3 cards if played properly, is also the most misplayed card of all time. First of all, and let me make this explicitly clear, it's almost never right to play it at end of turn. I don't care what you think you know about Magic, or how good of a player that you think you are, but if you're consistently playing Brainstorm at EOT then you're playing it horribly wrong. Period. Magic is a game of information and inches. Every piece of information that you gather before making your decisions is crucial. As "seductive" as it may seem to B.Storm at EOT, master players know that waiting to see what they draw is going to be the right decision way more often than not. Every additional card that you can see, for free, before you play your B.Storm helps you sculpt the perfect hand/allows you to make the perfect plays that much more. Saving that 1 mana is far less important than seeing that 1 extra card on your draw step. Otherwise, B.Storm functions a lot like Ponder. The card isn't actually very good unless you have access to shuffle effects, because all you're really doing is stranding useless cards on top of your deck otherwise. Sadly, it doesn't have the built in shuffle effect that Ponder has, so it's actually weaker at digging for a specific combo piece than Ponder is in that sense. Now, let's be clear about something though. A correctly played Brainstorm can be a "good" Ancestral Recall at times. Some people might look at that and scratch their heads, but it's true. Ancestral Recall can't hide Jace/Tinker on the top of your library if an opponent is Thoughtseizeing you, so there are actually times when it's more useful to be able to "hide" important spells. On other occasions, where you have multiple dead cards in hand (lands for example) and a fetchland in play, it basically feels like you're paying 1 mana to draw 3 cards. It's a ridiculously powerful spell in the right hands, and that's why it's so ubiquitous in formats such as Legacy.
So, it really depends on what your deck is trying to do and how it's built. No shuffle effects + not a combo deck? Preordain is your man. No shuffle effects + a combo deck? I'd roll with Ponder. Plenty of shuffle effects + any kind of deck? Brainstorm is easily the best of the 3 when played correctly and supported properly. Still, and I can't stress this enough, I'd be willing to bet that most people who play Brainstorm play it horribly wrong. EOT Brainstorm is the wrong play 95% of the time. Brainstorms without shuffle effects/dead cards to shuffle away are wrong a fair amount of the time. If you're just playing B.Storm because someone told you that it's amazing card, then you probably haven't experienced its true potential.
Thank you tich That helped explain a lot. I primarily use blue only in control decks (I play u/w control) and preordain has always been my go to card. I do not play combo and I can't think of a deck I have that B.Storm would be more effective.
I do understand why people would suggest different cards for different situations now. So thanks again!
It's virtually never right to B.Storm on turn 1 unless you REALLY need to dig into a land so that you can like Entomb + Reanimate on turn 2 or something (maybe to win the game before that combo decks goes off in your face). Super rare, niche cases at best. Even then I don't think that it's the right play, but maybe in some cases it could be. I don't play Reanimator/ANT/TPS enough to know for sure. I'd just always rather wait until turn 2 so that I could play a fetch and then mainphase B.Storm. I won't pretend like I have million games with every deck under my belt or anything, but I can't think of many "good" arguments to roll it out on turn 1 (I'm purposely ignoring situations where you're trying to dig for a Force of Will/Daze to counter game winning spells obviously, since plays like that are clearly correct 100% of the time).
Correct. I play Reanimator currently, used to play Doomsday Storm too. For reanimator, unless you mull to 4-5 and still got NOTHING, yes BS on turn 1 or your opponent turn after yours EOT (but more often than not, you're probably hoping that he kept a screwy hand too).
More like to combo off/grab protection pieces before the lock comes down or before he stabilizes (more turns for your opponent allows better sculpting, means a thicker wall of counters and disruptions, not to mention aggro-control decks like merfolks have both counters and a fast clock).
tich, this is one of the best explanations I have seen online for BS, Ponder and Preordain. Great job! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
However, I would like to point out that, for Legacy decks with plentiful of shuffle effects, Ponder is still better as it can dig deeper, for whatever stuff you think you might need. =)
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However, I would like to point out that, for Legacy decks with plentiful of shuffle effects, Ponder is still better as it can dig deeper, for whatever stuff you think you might need. =)
It's hard to says Ponder was better on Legacy because personnaly I prefer BStorm vs some deck and Ponder vs other deck. BStorm was amazing vs some discard deck. It's give you the possibility to hide a amazing card on the top of your library and didn't lose it next turn. BStorm save my ass a lot of time for turn2 win vs a Thoughseize. BStorm was a versatile card that can do a lot of thing in the hand of a experience player. Ponder still a pretty good card for combo/storm deck.
Preordain was a good card in a casual deck that just use it for card advantage and filter.
Brainstorm EOT wasn't great because it's only give you know the next card you will draw because you will see your top 3 and only put 2 back but you will draw one of them next turn. So in the final, after you draw the card on your turn you will only know the next card on the top of your library.
Otherwise tich explain very well everything.
Nice job tich!
However, I would like to point out that, for Legacy decks with plentiful of shuffle effects, Ponder is still better as it can dig deeper, for whatever stuff you think you might need. =)
I don't quite agree with that statement, unless you were referring to Ponder being better than Preordain (which I wouldn't refute for a second). Maybe in some weird vacuum it might be right to say, but I still can't behind the idea that either spell could ever trump B.Storm. As I explained earlier, Brainstorm can hide your Jace, the Mind Sculptor/ your Show and Tell/ your whatever on top of library in response to a discard effect being played (Duress, Hymn, Seize, etc.). As a Reanimator player, you must agree that sometimes you need to hang on to that Show and Tell because that Black player might also have that Leyline in the Void in play which is just shutting you out. Brainstorm can also dig for counters, such as Force of Will and Daze, at instant speed. This can be crucial when you're facing down combo decks such as Reanimator, TPS/ANT, Charbelcher, DFLT, etc. B.Storm isn't useful as an instant because you can play it at EOT, it's useful as an instant since you can use it to dig for answers RIGHT NOW if the alternative is losing the game RIGHT NOW.
Again though, I'm not trying to account for 100% of all situations or rank the cards as #1, 2 and 3 or anything. I'm trying to give a general guideline for playing the cards that most people can follow ~85% of the time. Nothing that I've said here is perfect, there's always going to weird, niche cases that my general logic doesn't account for. Still, I will stand by my statement that Brainstorm is typically always going to be the best of the 3 in decks with plenty of fetchlands to support it, even in Legacy. Is that true 100% of the time? Absolutely not. I just think that it's "correct" "enough" of the time to make it a fairly justifiable claim. Most Legacy decks with fetchlands, even combo decks, will use 4 Brainstorms before they use 4 Ponders. If you read any of Bryant Cook's articles/reports (the man basically invented Storm decks for anyone who doesn't know), he's almost always cutting a Ponder or so to make room for sideboard cards in games 2 and 3. I have never seen him cut a Brainstorm even once, and I've read every report/article he's ever written. So, even if you don't care about me or what I think, it has to say something about the card if the Storm God himself won't cut it even though Ponder can dig him 1 card deeper to help his deck go off.
I don't quite agree with that statement, unless you were referring to Ponder being better than Preordain (which I wouldn't refute for a second). Maybe in some weird vacuum it might be right to say, but I still can't behind the idea that either spell could ever trump B.Storm. As I explained earlier, Brainstorm can hide your Jace, the Mind Sculptor/ your Show and Tell/ your whatever on top of library in response to a discard effect being played (Duress, Hymn, Seize, etc.). As a Reanimator player, you must agree that sometimes you need to hang on to that Show and Tell because that Black player might also have that Leyline in the Void in play which is just shutting you out. Brainstorm can also dig for counters, such as Force of Will and Daze, at instant speed. This can be crucial when you're facing down combo decks such as Reanimator, TPS/ANT, Charbelcher, DFLT, etc. B.Storm isn't useful as an instant because you can play it at EOT, it's useful as an instant since you can use it to dig for answers RIGHT NOW if the alternative is losing the game RIGHT NOW.
Again though, I'm not trying to account for 100% of all situations or rank the cards as #1, 2 and 3 or anything. I'm trying to give a general guideline for playing the cards that most people can follow ~85% of the time. Nothing that I've said here is perfect, there's always going to weird, niche cases that my general logic doesn't account for. Still, I will stand by my statement that Brainstorm is typically always going to be the best of the 3 in decks with plenty of fetchlands to support it, even in Legacy. Is that true 100% of the time? Absolutely not. I just think that it's "correct" "enough" of the time to make it a fairly justifiable claim. Most Legacy decks with fetchlands, even combo decks, will use 4 Brainstorms before they use 4 Ponders. If you read any of Bryant Cook's articles/reports (the man basically invented Storm decks for anyone who doesn't know), he's almost always cutting a Ponder or so to make room for sideboard cards in games 2 and 3. I have never seen him cut a Brainstorm even once, and I've read every report/article he's ever written. So, even if you don't care about me or what I think, it has to say something about the card if the Storm God himself won't cut it even though Ponder can dig him 1 card deeper to help his deck go off.
Sorry what I meant was that Ponder is better than Preordain in many Legacy Decks.
My apologies for the confusion.
Cook's a great man, he even got me interested in EDH by displaying a consistent enough storm combo (but it got banned out =((( ).
Yup, current reanimator lists cuts Ponder too because it feels somewhat meh.
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Sorry what I meant was that Ponder is better than Preordain in many Legacy Decks.
That I completely agree with. I was trying to imply to that Ponder is better than Preordain if your deck has fetchlands, which is why I didn't explcitily state it. That's why I said that it was a good card for budget decks/newer players. I thought that got the message across that "this card is worse when all 3 cards are supported properly." Still, maybe I should have been more clear. I honestly can't think of a single reason to run Preordain in Legacy, and I can't recall the last time that a competitive deck ran them. MAYBE some StoneBlade deck ran some at some point, I honestly don't know, but I just can't think of any current top tier deck that would roll with them. It's just a worse card overall if your deck is packed with fetches.
I hope this does not infringe on the spamming rules, but I just wanted to thank you guys for the explanations here. Blue is my weakest Spike-color in Magic.
I honestly can't think of a single reason to run Preordain in Legacy, and I can't recall the last time that a competitive deck ran them.
High Tide and Storm decks run them, but mainly cause they're running all three cantrips. The Preordains are often cut to 3 while Brainstorm and Ponder are four-ofs, giving an indication of their ranking in those decks.
Until recently, I have always thought that preordain was the best out of the the three, followed by ponder, and finally brainstorm. But as I post more and read more on the forums, I keep hearing that ponder is better than preordain.
Why is that? Personally, I think it is better to scry 2, pick one good card, put the other not so good atm card on the bottom than it is to look at the top 3, see you want one of them but the other two are crap and be forced to either take the one card, and wait around a few turns or shuffle your deck and see what happens.
Am I missing something? what is it that makes ponder supreme to preordain?
EDH
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
First of all, Brainstorm is an instant, which automatically makes it better than a sorcery. However, they all have very different ways of interacting with the top of your deck.
So, if your deck likes drawing cards, as in you're playing cards like Lorescale Coatl or Psychosis Crawler, then running Brainstorm is better because you draw 3 cards. However, you have to put two cards from your hand onto the top of your library, so it is only "digging" 1 card deep. That means you're only seeing 1 card further than you normally would, which isn't the greatest. If you have fetchlands (Misty Rainforest, Flooded Strand, Evolving Wilds etc) then you can shuffle away the two cards you put on the top of your library. Generally speaking you'll want to put 2 cards from your hand that you don't need and shuffle them away.
Ponder also pseudo-"digs" you 3 cards deep, allowing you to set up your next draws, or gamble and shuffle away whatever is on top to draw a random card. It's good if you want to chain draws in a combo deck like Storm. Ponder is good if your deck likes shuffling, and it's good because it has a built in shuffle effect. It's slower than Brainstorm because you can only cast it on your turn. Generally you will want to use this with other shuffle effects like fetchlands because you will pick the best of the three to draw, and then put the 2 cards you don't need back on the top of your library. If they're really bad, you'll want a way to shuffle them into your library in the hopes that you'll draw something better.
Lastly, Preordain is the card to use if your deck does not have, or does not need fetchlands. It can arrange the top of your deck by itself, but only lets you see 2 cards. It's also a sorcery so it can only be played on your turn. Basically you can choose the best of 2 cards, or gamble and draw a random card. Whatever choice you make, you can put the worst card, or cards, on the bottom of your library, effectively getting rid of them for the time being.
So what it comes down to is the deck you're running, do you have fetchlands? do you want to play spells on your opponent's turn? do you want to dig as deep as you can? or do you want to set up draws?
Multiplayer:
MonoBlack
Mono-Red
Cycling
Crush of Wurms
Zoo
Immortal Coil
Control
Reanimator
Mono-G
Cruel Ascension
Landfall
Esper Spirits/Tokens
Phantom Vigor
Not Explicitly Multiplayer:
Allies
Bant
Artifacts
First of all, Preordain is typically the best of the 3 if your deck doesn't any efficient shuffle effects (which tend to be fetchlands such as Verdant Catacombs). While the card doesn't dig as deep + isn't as versatile (more on this later) as the others, it will never strand dead cards on top of your library. If you see 2 cards that you like love/hate, you can always keep them or ship them both to the bottom. If you see 1 that you want and 1 that you don't, you get the keep the important spell while ditching the other. That's something that you cannot do with Ponder (unless you have a shuffle effect obviously). If you Ponder into 1 card that you really need, but 2 otherwise dead cards (lands for example), then keeping the good card also forces you to keep the 2 bad ones. Again, this is just horrible without a shuffle effect. As such, Preordain is typically better for newer players or budget decks, because the card is a "jack of all trades, but master of none." It has the highest lows and the lowest highs, it's right in that happy middle zone. It's a very good card to add to Control decks in general, since it helps them smooth out their draws and can allow them to cheat their land counts slightly. Again, the beautiful part about the card is that it doesn't need any support. You can blindly jam 4 of them into your Control decks and it can't really come back to bite you. It's just a solid spell that will never blow your mind, but it's not going to break your back either.
That being said, Ponder is still typically better than Preordain in Combo decks, or if your deck has some efficient shuffling effects (such as fetchlands). For Combo decks, Ponder can virtually "dig" up to 4 cards (look at 3, shuffle, look at 1), which is important if you're just looking for 1 specific spell. I'll use the basic example of Splinter Twin + Pestermite. Once you assemble this 2 card combo, you just plain win on the spot. So, even though Pondering can "strand" dead cards on top of your deck, that doesn't matter when the card that you're looking for straight up wins the game. If you have a Pestermite in play, you're going to Ponder specifically to find Twin. You will not see 1 good card and 2 bad ones and be upset, because the good one is enough to win the game. If you don't see Twin, then you'll almost always be shuffling to see a 4th card. So, in those instances, it virtually digs 1 card further than Preordain and Brainstorm. In case it isn't clear as to why that is, I'll briefly explain. Preordain would only dig you 3 cards (look at 2, ship them both to the bottom, look at 1), and Brainstorm would also only let you dig up to 3 cards (look at 3, hide 2). So, if your deck is just plain looking to find 1 spell to win the game, then Ponder has the highest potential of all 3 to find it. Outside of combo decks (ones with fetchlands), it's still a solid card. The issue of looking at 1-2 good cards but 1-2 dead cards doesn't actually matter when you can shuffle away cards that you're not looking to draw. That drawback of stranding dead cards is instantly circumvented, and so the card starts to feel much more powerful than Preordain. You get to see more cards with it if needed, and you can still Control your draws perfectly.
Brainstorm, while it's easily the best of the 3 cards if played properly (overall that is, it's not strictly better or anything), is also the most misplayed card of all time. First of all, and let me make this explicitly clear, it's almost never right to play it at end of turn. I don't care what you think you know about Magic, or how good of a player that you think you are, but if you're consistently playing Brainstorm at EOT then you're playing it wrong. Period. Magic is a game of information and inches. Every piece of information that you gather before making your decisions is crucial. As "seductive" as it may seem to B.Storm at EOT, master players know that waiting to see what they draw is going to be the right decision way more often than not. Every additional card that you can see, for free, before you play your B.Storm helps you sculpt the perfect hand/allows you to make better decisions. Saving that 1 mana is far less important than seeing that 1 extra card on your draw step. Otherwise, B.Storm functions a lot like Ponder. The card isn't actually very good unless you have access to shuffle effects, because all you're really doing is stranding useless cards on top of your deck otherwise. Sadly, it doesn't have the built in shuffle effect that Ponder has, so it's actually weaker at digging for a specific combo piece than Ponder is in that sense. Now, let's be clear about something though. A correctly played Brainstorm can be a "good" Ancestral Recall at times. Some people might look at that and scratch their heads, but it's true. Ancestral Recall can't hide Jace/Tinker on the top of your library if an opponent is Thoughtseizeing you, so there are actually times when it's more useful to be able to "hide" important spells. On other occasions, where you have multiple dead cards in hand (lands for example) and a fetchland in play, it basically feels like you're paying 1 mana to draw 3 cards. It's a ridiculously powerful spell in the right hands, and that's why it's so ubiquitous in formats such as Legacy. Still, in the hands of a novice, it's actually one of the weaker spells in the game. It basically doesn't do anything if you're not using it properly. It easily has the highest highs, but it also has the lowest lows by far. I do not recommend playing this card unless everything that I've just said a) meant nothing to you because you already knew it, or b) struck a chord with you and legitimately changed your point of view about the card and how you'll play it.
So, it really depends on what your deck is trying to do and how it's built. No shuffle effects + not a combo deck? Preordain is your man. No shuffle effects + a combo deck? I'd roll with Ponder. Plenty of shuffle effects + any kind of deck? Brainstorm is easily the best of the 3 when played correctly and supported properly. Still, and I can't stress this enough, I'd be willing to bet that most people who play Brainstorm play it horribly wrong. EOT Brainstorm is the wrong play 95% of the time. Brainstorms without shuffle effects/dead cards to shuffle away are wrong a fair amount of the time. If you're just playing B.Storm because someone told you that it's amazing card, then you probably haven't experienced its true potential.
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Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I have a question regarding this: why would you ever play brainstorm at the end of turn? maybe the first turn? otherwise, I can't really think of why. what scenarios are under the 5% of the time it is proper to play it at the end of turn?
My WTB - EDH stuff
It's virtually never right to B.Storm on turn 1 unless you REALLY need to dig into a land so that you can like Entomb + Reanimate on turn 2 or something (maybe to win the game before that combo decks goes off in your face). Super rare, niche cases at best. Even then I don't think that it's the right play, but maybe in some cases it could be. I don't play Reanimator/ANT/TPS enough to know for sure. I'd just always rather wait until turn 2 so that I could play a fetch and then mainphase B.Storm. I won't pretend like I have million games with every deck under my belt or anything, but I can't think of many "good" arguments to roll it out on turn 1 (I'm purposely ignoring situations where you're trying to dig for a Force of Will/Daze to counter game winning spells obviously, since plays like that are clearly correct 100% of the time).
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Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Thank you tich That helped explain a lot. I primarily use blue only in control decks (I play u/w control) and preordain has always been my go to card. I do not play combo and I can't think of a deck I have that B.Storm would be more effective.
I do understand why people would suggest different cards for different situations now. So thanks again!
EDH
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion
Correct. I play Reanimator currently, used to play Doomsday Storm too. For reanimator, unless you mull to 4-5 and still got NOTHING, yes BS on turn 1 or your opponent turn after yours EOT (but more often than not, you're probably hoping that he kept a screwy hand too).
More like to combo off/grab protection pieces before the lock comes down or before he stabilizes (more turns for your opponent allows better sculpting, means a thicker wall of counters and disruptions, not to mention aggro-control decks like merfolks have both counters and a fast clock).
tich, this is one of the best explanations I have seen online for BS, Ponder and Preordain. Great job! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
However, I would like to point out that, for Legacy decks with plentiful of shuffle effects, Ponder is still better as it can dig deeper, for whatever stuff you think you might need. =)
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
It's hard to says Ponder was better on Legacy because personnaly I prefer BStorm vs some deck and Ponder vs other deck. BStorm was amazing vs some discard deck. It's give you the possibility to hide a amazing card on the top of your library and didn't lose it next turn. BStorm save my ass a lot of time for turn2 win vs a Thoughseize. BStorm was a versatile card that can do a lot of thing in the hand of a experience player. Ponder still a pretty good card for combo/storm deck.
Preordain was a good card in a casual deck that just use it for card advantage and filter.
Brainstorm EOT wasn't great because it's only give you know the next card you will draw because you will see your top 3 and only put 2 back but you will draw one of them next turn. So in the final, after you draw the card on your turn you will only know the next card on the top of your library.
Otherwise tich explain very well everything.
Nice job tich!
WBGhost Council of OrzhovaBW
GUBThe MimeoplasmBUG
RGWort, the RaidmotherGR
UGRRiku of Two ReflectionsRGU
Casual
WGBJunkStone DeckBGW
BMonoBlack VampireB
I don't quite agree with that statement, unless you were referring to Ponder being better than Preordain (which I wouldn't refute for a second). Maybe in some weird vacuum it might be right to say, but I still can't behind the idea that either spell could ever trump B.Storm. As I explained earlier, Brainstorm can hide your Jace, the Mind Sculptor/ your Show and Tell/ your whatever on top of library in response to a discard effect being played (Duress, Hymn, Seize, etc.). As a Reanimator player, you must agree that sometimes you need to hang on to that Show and Tell because that Black player might also have that Leyline in the Void in play which is just shutting you out. Brainstorm can also dig for counters, such as Force of Will and Daze, at instant speed. This can be crucial when you're facing down combo decks such as Reanimator, TPS/ANT, Charbelcher, DFLT, etc. B.Storm isn't useful as an instant because you can play it at EOT, it's useful as an instant since you can use it to dig for answers RIGHT NOW if the alternative is losing the game RIGHT NOW.
Again though, I'm not trying to account for 100% of all situations or rank the cards as #1, 2 and 3 or anything. I'm trying to give a general guideline for playing the cards that most people can follow ~85% of the time. Nothing that I've said here is perfect, there's always going to weird, niche cases that my general logic doesn't account for. Still, I will stand by my statement that Brainstorm is typically always going to be the best of the 3 in decks with plenty of fetchlands to support it, even in Legacy. Is that true 100% of the time? Absolutely not. I just think that it's "correct" "enough" of the time to make it a fairly justifiable claim. Most Legacy decks with fetchlands, even combo decks, will use 4 Brainstorms before they use 4 Ponders. If you read any of Bryant Cook's articles/reports (the man basically invented Storm decks for anyone who doesn't know), he's almost always cutting a Ponder or so to make room for sideboard cards in games 2 and 3. I have never seen him cut a Brainstorm even once, and I've read every report/article he's ever written. So, even if you don't care about me or what I think, it has to say something about the card if the Storm God himself won't cut it even though Ponder can dig him 1 card deeper to help his deck go off.
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Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Sorry what I meant was that Ponder is better than Preordain in many Legacy Decks.
My apologies for the confusion.
Cook's a great man, he even got me interested in EDH by displaying a consistent enough storm combo (but it got banned out =((( ).
Yup, current reanimator lists cuts Ponder too because it feels somewhat meh.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
That I completely agree with. I was trying to imply to that Ponder is better than Preordain if your deck has fetchlands, which is why I didn't explcitily state it. That's why I said that it was a good card for budget decks/newer players. I thought that got the message across that "this card is worse when all 3 cards are supported properly." Still, maybe I should have been more clear. I honestly can't think of a single reason to run Preordain in Legacy, and I can't recall the last time that a competitive deck ran them. MAYBE some StoneBlade deck ran some at some point, I honestly don't know, but I just can't think of any current top tier deck that would roll with them. It's just a worse card overall if your deck is packed with fetches.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
High Tide and Storm decks run them, but mainly cause they're running all three cantrips. The Preordains are often cut to 3 while Brainstorm and Ponder are four-ofs, giving an indication of their ranking in those decks.
necro
blut