It's me again trying out to build a new budget deck. Making this my second attempt at doing so. (A reason why is because the jokers in my new casual playgroup all made decks that pro black =\ so I dismantled grave existence and traded the cards away for this deck)
So here's my current objectives:
To build a deck on about 50-80 bucks (Excluding Jace 2.0, Elspeth, Vial and Jitte).
While maintaining deck functionality for MP and SP.
Must be Legacy Legal.
Ideally, each card should not cost more than a 3-5 bucks, but let's try to keep it budget =).
Must not be Pure Aggro (which is common of many random decks, aggro as a wincon is ok) nor ideally too linear.
Rewarding playskill is great.
Ideally, not comboish, more of synergy and tricks (which is what all this deck is about).
No Wasteland/Rishadan Port as a playset costs a bomb. And targeted land destruction/mana denial effects piss many people off in casual.
There is no SB.
Counters are removed here because counters are useless in MP.
Another reason why I'm posting here is because, you folks have tried tons of cards (vs me screening card set lists) and might also think of tech that I missed out
And thank you Finn for pointing me in the right direction (he's also the guy I got most of the primer from, modified as the deck is slightly different now).
EDIT: Finn was right, the deck worked too slow for me without Vial, so I guess I'll be playing them.
Of course, I'll write a short primer on how this deck works.
Introduction
Bag of Tricks is a UW Weenie with, as the title says, a bag of tricks. It is those tricks that make it more annoying for than your opponents are prepared to deal with. These tricks seek to disrupt your opponent so that you can delay or even "turn off" elements of your opponent's strategy while your creatures deliver damage.
The entire deck in theory works without using any tricks and every card works fine on its own (like any typical aggro deck and my concept of deck building). But there are many tricks to employ. These tricks provide the control features and are what win you games.
EDIT: This deck is now more controllish than the original D&T, though still uses the tricks from D&T.
Note that most of the tricks will be explained below (after card choices).
Card Choices
Riptide Laboratory/Karakas
One of the engine cards in the deck. Bounces Venser and Mangara for tricks.
Kor Haven
A budget Maze of Ith that acts as a semi-form of removal and for combat tricks.
Ghost Quarter
Budget replacement of Wasteland. However, it's only good if your opponent is playing mostly or all nonbasic lands.
Goldmeadow Harrier
For combat tricks, stopping a fatty from attacking, removing a blocker, stopping an activation of an ability and even stopping a manland =D
Flickerwisp
One of the creatures for tricks. Works as a beatstick too.
Jotun Grunt
Helps with running out of cards in library in Multiplayer or drawn out games. Can hit your opponent's gy if he uses it. Stops your friends who use milling strategies to win (excluding combo mill). And an efficient beatstick.
Student of Warfare
Looks pretty decent, though I'm not sure there's something better than this.
EDIT: Figure of Destiny is a better choice here but rather expensive. And depending on budget, I might just run Goldmeadow Harrier instead.
Serra Avenger
While she can't be played on the first 3 turns can be annoying at times, vialing one wielding a jitte or being enhanced by Elspeth makes her a dangerous beatstick. Vigilance works great too, helps to block and stall long enough for Jace 2.0 to use his ulti.
Aven Mimeomancer
Is somewhat a form of removal, making huge creatures not as big. Has synergy with Elspeth tokens.
Unsummon(removed, in long games just bouncing the creature back to hand isn't as good)
Removal is good, originally Swords to Plowshares here. But still deciding whether it's better or not, it enables tricks with mangara too.
Condemn(removed, Oust is better)
Another spot removal.
Oust
I'm trying it to generate tempo advantage, but sorcery speed kinda sucks. But it's better than condemn and somewhat better/worse than unsummon. Once in a while you get Jace 2.0 with Oust, you Oust his creature then fateseal it away
Oblivion ring
Common Vindicate is never bad, might be a 2 of though.
Jace and Elspeth
Just there because I'm dying to use a PW in casual.
Umezawa's Jitte
I wanted a singleton of each sword from the sword cycle, but since my merfolk deck got dismantled, I just threw in the 2 Jittes here. Helps to turn the tide or fix the deck slowness/lack of power quite a few noticeable instances.
Tricks: (EDITED: I'm quoting a major part of Finn's explanations of the deck interactions here as with Vials, since the deck is like D&T now, removed a couple of stuff you don't see in casual/legacy metagame references, changed Karakas and Riptide Laboratory can be used inter-exchangeably) Link to Finn's Death & Taxes Primer: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=50057
Quote from "Finn" »
A. Mangara tricks
You are going to find that opponents will stop at nothing to rid themselves of Mangara once they understand what he can do.
How does the Mangara cheese work?
You tap him and return him with Riptide or "flicker" him from play with the Flickerwisp while his ability is on the stack. Do not tap Mangara and ask "OK?". You have to respond with the unsummon effect before you ask for a response or a savvy opponent will simply do nothing and you will not get a chance to.
If you are removing mana sources, do it on your own turn whenever possible.
If you are trying to maximize instead, consider something like this:
-a. block a Nimble Mongoose
-b. tap to remove an attacking fatty from the game
-c. use Riptide or Flickerwisp to circumvent Mangara removing himself from the game
B. Flickerwisp tricks
Vial it in to save Mangara or Grunt from themselves.
Hardcast it targeting your own Oblivion Ring to change its target.
Vial it in to "Port" an opponent's land on their upkeep or (even better) at your own end of turn step.
Hardcast it targeting your own land to make it essentially only cost two mana.
Hardcast it to remove a blocker.
Vial it in to prevent an opposing creature from attacking for a turn.
Vial it in to counter a removal spell from your opponent.
Vial it in to temporarily remove Standstill.
Hardcast it removing Planeswalker, Vial, Chalice, or Engineered Explosives to remove all counters. {snicker}
e. Oblivion Ring's second ability resolves, returning the Siege-Gang Commander to play, which, of course never left in the first place - so nothing happens.
stack = 1. remove SGC
f. Oblivion Ring's first ability then resolves, removing Siege-Gang Commander from the game never to return.
g. At the end of your turn, Flickerwisp's delayed trigger returns Oblivion Ring to play, removing another nonland permanent from the game as normal.
III. Tips on gameplay
When do I reveal which creature I am vialing into play?
After the opponent agrees that the Aether Vial activation resolves. Not before. This can be an extremely important part of your tricks, so don't tip your hand by rushing through. The judge should side with an opponent who complains that he was not given a chance to respond to a vial actvation.
How do I unsummon or "flicker" a creature carrying a Jitte during combat so that the creature does not take damage, and yet the Jitte gets counters?
You can't.
The creatures in D+T are there to provide disruption and also aggression. So you played a couple of opponents where Flickerwisp was nothing special? It happens. Just don't be hasty and start reworking the deck after only a few matches. They are all going to be mediocre from time to time. Adjust them in the main/sideboard to suit.
Birds of Paradise and Noble Hierarch can hurt you a lot. Hit them with Sword to Plowshares turn one. Same goes for Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond. If you have Oblivion Ring or Flickerwisp, either is a very good target.
As with all aggro control decks, your strategy is going to be radically different depending on the opponent. Unlike most aggro control decks, much of the control comes from the creatures themselves. So while the Threshold player has to decide whether to lay down a turn two Counterbalance or Tarmogoyf (control or aggro), you will need to figure out if you want to cast Stoneforge Mystic or a Jotun Grunt (card advantage or control, but both creatures).
Remember that Mangara's ability removes him on resolution. That means that if you target, say, a land and the opponent responds by using his own Wasteland on it, Mangara stays in play.
J. Be sure to TAKE YOUR TIME when announcing that you will be using Karakas or Vialing in a Flickerwisp to save Mangara. Give your opponent an opportunity to blow a Lightning Bolt on him or make some similar mistake. You must retain priority, but until you say that you are passing it or make some other action, you still have it.
If you target a permanent with Mangara and the opponent invalidates the target (unsummons it, sacrifices it, gives it protection, etc.) Mangara does not remove himself.
To further add on from Finn's primer, with the U splash, gives us Vendilion Clique which gives us 2 choices:
Remove a useless card in your hand and draw (hopefully) something better.
Also, note that you can "reload" your planeswalker post ulti or after he has taken on quite a bit of beating and is about to leave you with flickerwisp.
Venser tricks (similar to how flickerwisp work)
Flash it in to save Mangara or Grunt from themselves.
Flash it in to bounce an opponent's land on their upkeep or (even better) at your own end of turn step.
Flash it in to prevent an opposing creature from attacking for a turn.
Flash it in to take out "counter" a spell.
Flash it in to rescue your chump blocker.
Flash it in to abuse the hell out of Oblivion Ring. Here's how:
You would have to pass priority after playing the Ring to let it resolve and come into play.
The comes-into-play ability of the Ring will trigger, and you choose the target permanent. That goes on the stack.
Then you Venser the Ring - when that resolves, the Ring's leaves-play ability will go on the stack. When that ability resolves, since no card has been removed yet, nothing will return - finally, the comes-into-play ability will resolve and remove the targeted permanent forever.
First of all, this seems like a really thought out and well constructed deck. It's not easy to think of ways to improve it, so I'm just going to offer suggestions on things you could try out and see if they work.
I'm not too sure about Coralhelm Commander in this deck since the UU cost is probably going to strain the mana base a little, and in any case he isn't that good without other merfolk in the deck. You might want to consider Ninja of the Deep Hours instead, since he also addresses the need for CA (you generally always play him for his Ninjitsu cost). Vendilion Clique is strong in 1v1, but I am less confident about its value in multiplayer since then it's mostly better to use the triggered ability to filter your own hand.
I would like to see Brainstorm somewhere in the 60, you even have 5 shuffle effect lands to optimize its effect. You could consider cutting the Mishra's Factories as well if you include Brainstorm, since it makes it easier to hit land drops. I like the Oblivion Rings, but not so much the Condemns. The need for the creature to be attacking just limits it too much I feel. I would suggest Swords to Plowshares but I'm not sure how useful spot removal like this is in multiplayer. Unsummon could be replaced by Repulse since cantrips are great in MP.
That's all I can think of for now, I love Riptide Laboratory and CIP effects myself, so best of luck with the deck!
Echoing Truth might be subbed in for Unsummon if you don't use it on lands, its easier on the mana base and is really nice against multiples and tokens.
Made it more aggro, but I'll have to check on the prices for Serra Avenger and Student of Warfare, if they are too pricey over here, I'll use Coralhelm over Avenger and Goldmeadow over Student.
EDIT2:
Updated post.
Also, if I can find a Figure of Destiny cheap it will prolly go in too.
I did. Finn's name is above. Though I can use citations if you like
I'd like you to mark what you took from him and link to his version.
Regarding the deck:
I really question the usefullness of Commander. While you have Vial to get past the UU, you really should be able to do better, in power and synergy.
Four Labs look like too much, unless they get blown up a lot.
Random cards that you might want to test: Galepowder Mage, Mistmeadow Witch, Ranger of Eos (with more 1cmc creatures), the SoM dual (I haven't tested them yet, and won't due to better options, but resulust would still be interesting, and in theory they could fit your deck).
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Regarding the deck:
I really question the usefullness of Commander. While you have Vial to get past the UU, you really should be able to do better, in power and synergy.
Four Labs look like too much, unless they get blown up a lot.
Random cards that you might want to test: Galepowder Mage, Mistmeadow Witch, Ranger of Eos (with more 1cmc creatures), the SoM dual (I haven't tested them yet, and won't due to better options, but resulust would still be interesting, and in theory they could fit your deck).
I'm currently using Commander over Serra Avenger like I said above. Other ideas would be Vexing Sphinx, but you'll never want to see more than 1 every game.
I'm running 4 Labs because D&T doesn't have CA at all, maybe with SoFI but that's it (but that's out of budget =( ). Maybe some CA ideas? The one I can think of would be Fathom Seer but looks real passive.
I avoided the above because of their cmc or activation costs (for witch), the curves actually end at 3, the 2 PW there are only good when the games drag, which by then I'll have 4 lands.
First thing I notice, the only reason you need to run blue is for the Laboratory. As good as Jace and Coralhelm Commander are, you may be better off going with mono-white to clean up your mana base and adding more combo critters. *IF* you were running Venser, Shaper Savant I'd say go for it, but you aren't. All that blue looks strange.
But if the blue is staying in, Momentary Blink should be considered.
I would definitely replace the Commanders to get rid of the UU dependency, probably with Kor Aeronaut if a good, cheap flyer is what you are looking for.
Next, I don't think you need a Feldon's Cane - even in MP do you really plow through your library that quickly? If you do, then Elixir of Immortality is strictly superior.
Finally, you MAY be able to take it down to 22 (even 21) lands, you're spells are super cheap and AEther Vial is like having 3 extra lands a turn.
First thing I notice, the only reason you need to run blue is for the Laboratory. As good as Jace and Coralhelm Commander are, you may be better off going with mono-white to clean up your mana base and adding more combo critters. *IF* you were running Venser, Shaper Savant I'd say go for it, but you aren't. All that blue looks strange.
But if the blue is staying in, Momentary Blink should be considered.
I would definitely replace the Commanders to get rid of the UU dependency, probably with Kor Aeronaut if a good, cheap flyer is what you are looking for.
Next, I don't think you need a Feldon's Cane - even in MP do you really plow through your library that quickly? If you do, then Elixir of Immortality is strictly superior.
Finally, you MAY be able to take it down to 22 (even 21) lands, you're spells are super cheap and AEther Vial is like having 3 extra lands a turn.
You are right, it's actually a budget water-down version of the Legacy Death and Taxes just that I can't afford Karakas and Jitte/Swords. Which is the reason why I'm running Riptide. Jace is there as a 1 of for fun mostly and I do meet decks that have heavy protection from a color (which lead to my mono black grave existence being dismantled), which allows me to bounce or break stalemates in late game.
Blink is good but it's not good on it's own, I rather use Unsummon. I tried to run Venser but he's rather mana intensive, since the curve ends at 3.
Stonecloaker might work as a 2 of, but I'll have to try it, since vial is usually on 3 for flickerwisp and mangara.
Dust Elemental could be tested, I'm not sure if it's better than Elspeth. I'm not sure about the Lions, since Savannah Lions might be better here. Riders has a rather heavy cmc for my curve.
Grunts are fine actually, deals with GY strategies, refills library during MP, deals with mill strategies (with the exception of combo mill which I don't see) and a cheap beatstick. But dependent on further testing, Kitchen Finks might take his place.
I'm not sure about meddling mage due to it being casual, and it's hard to know what my opponent is playing.
As for trinket mage, I don't have cards like Engineered Explosives to get a toolbox.
As for the last 2 wizards, I'm not sure about how it helps to the game plan (Vedalken Aethermage) and I kinda find myself either mana flooding or short on mana (Azorius Æthermage).
I'm also thinking of a black splash over blue to sac mangara and recur him, but haven't got my thoughts together yet.
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If you're looking for a beather, Cosi's Trickstermight fill the role.
Hope that helps
Oh I missed the part about Vedalken Aethermage, will look into it, though not too sure as I don't run enough wizards to warrant it.
As for bounce, Crystal Shard and Vedalken Mastermind are probably the best. Though the mana base need to be fix alittle. But also, the only stuff I bounce during playtests are Mangara (exile engine) and Vendilion Clique (CA + hand disruption engine).
The issue I have with 3 cmc cards or abilities is that first, Riptide Laboratory unlike the original Karakas eats ton of mana. Second, I don't get 3 mana consistently unless I manage to stall the game long enough (vialing is fine though, but keeping too many 3 cmc ups the curve and slows it further).
As this is casual, I tend to agree that the aggro route might be better for 1v1. I think I'll try some creatures over harrier, though Goldmeadow Harrier is somewhat better in multiplayer.
Also, note that this deck has kinda shifted away from the D&T style to a more controllish build (which is more fun for MP) and if D&T kills real slow, this is even slower, unless Jace 2.0 lands of course.
EDIT: Updated Opening Post. It still needs more work to fit the current version I'm running though.
My deck is geared for both SP and MP without using SB (compared to the other casual decks I ran).
Hmm, you managed to fit the equipment (which I didn't know what to cut), pretty much agree with some of the choices (I considered them too, just that the list I had was too much that it was hard to sort)
Mask of Memory sounds good over lens (I run many cheap flyers). Jitte isn't as insane in MP with so many people targeting it like what you think.
I'll consider getting mystics (once I get my pay) but I'll proxy first and test it out.
I kinda removed tutors to give it a little inconsistency (vs a tourney deck where I want consistent draws) so I don't go drawing for my gamebreaking cards so fast, more of a lucky topdeck here and there (which makes people go, "You got lucky!" and people feel more inclined to play again). Jace, Elspeth and Jitte is to kinda end the game quicker (or stall it to get a foothold) and give the opps I win thing, vs getting it out asap and win (indeed personally I do love consistency, which is the reason I quit EDH, but a linear deck.
Just curious, why a singleton SDT? I know that it's bad in multiples unless you're playing combo. Unless it's there during late games to filter gas (considering you cast trinket mage to get it out).
Your list looks fun though I'm kinda suspicious of the manabase and 5 slots taken for the equipment toolbox (Elspeth can be used as a giant growth for your creatures while moving towards her ulti).
EDIT:
Rewrote the primer and quoting Finn's detailed explanations of the deck's interaction.
Oh, maybe I'll try the manabase then, I'm not sure if it's my shuffling or something else, even with 23 lands in the opening thread, I get either ok mana (the 50% of the time), too much mana or too little mana. Not to mention, using riptide over karakas is really mana hungry.
Oh I misread it, saw the other 2 (SDT and Elixir) as equips, my bad too.
GW huh, Goyf and Taxes? Or the Living wish variant I heard in the threads?
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Well, the only CA in my list is SoFaI, Stoneforge and a couple Horizon Canopy...
Oh I thought you were referring to the list you posted here =).
Well you have like 3 Stoneforge, SoFI and Canopy, vs me Clique and Jace
Another reason, I'm using 23 is because I'm using Finn's stock list (his is 22), and destabilizing the manabase and increasing the cmc curve higher (so logically speaking, I should at least up the land count as I don't run REAL duals, where if I did, I'll have enough money to buy the whole D&T deck, Karakas and all).
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Well, in the list I proposed you have stoneforge, trinket mage (which can grab the artifact lands I included), big jace, clique and sdt. I think your's has much more CA than mine...;)
I am intrigued...did you test the deck? How it turned out?
Not yet I'm afraid.
My first day at work today, had Overtime and a school exam too.
Will try to find sometime to try it hopefully in the next few weeks. (Goldfishing doesn't really help as this deck isn't combo or aggro).
Through some games on MWS, some comments (since it's against random jank aggro and control decks, I don't actually consider them as real matches) though I need more serious testing.
Glacial Fortress and Seachrome Coast might be a split, though probably because I'm not used to not running Duals, and that due to lack of fetching effects for them I sometimes get fortress or coast both at right and wrong times.
Vedalken Mastermind is great with Mangara or some combat tricks but bouncing your own permanents only seems lacking. UU is sometimes rather hard to cast without Vial here and there.
Trinket Mage turned out to be not as exciting. He does fetch SDT, Vial and occasionally a land, but Elixir seemed rather unnecessary (Jotun seemed to work better against Mill and GY strategies, or even when you're decking). He's nice in MP but very meh in SP.
Equipment is working great so far (though I'm using Loxodon Warhammer over sledge). Sword of Vengeance could be a cheap equip like what you suggested below, the other effects doesn't seem useful yet.
Back to work again, update more in the next few weeks, hopefully.
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Be prepared to wait REAL long, seriously (I just realised my work is 5.5 work week too).
Well, this deck is designed to play both SP and MP (and without SB, the last time I used one, I faced SB against my TE Deck), ideally the focus is on SP, yet operational in MP.
Thus I focus mostly on the original D&T shell faster choices (I like efficiency in cmc :p), but using the more controllish cards in D&T, as I kinda hate straight aggro which is the reason why I'm running PW over equipments initially. Though with your help, looks like a toolbox equipment for CA etc can fit in too.
Ok my thoughts about the 2 duals (and I just realised mystic gate unlike Skycloud Expanse can't filter colorless mana lol):
Glacial Fortress:
-CIPT Tapped, so can't be played turn 1.
-But unless you get really bad land drops, it gets better from turn 2 onwards.
-Gets wasted.
Seachrome Coast:
-Good for early drops for early mana fixing.
-Gets real bad late game, dead draw too.
-Gets wasted.
On paper, Fortress seems the best, considering the curve (and mana to keep the engine running), but what do you think?
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IF I were trying to make this work on a budget, I would...
1. Take advantage of blue. Cut some lands and all the Goldmeadow Harriers. Add Brainstorms and Ponders. This is a bit of an outdated arrangement, but it acknowledges that there is better stuff out there than what one might find in white alone at one mana. You want to end up at about 19 lands this way, so you may need to cut another spell as well.
2. Take advantage of Riptide Laboratory. I do not like the card especially, but it says "Wizard". There are a lot of them to manipulate:
IF I were trying to make this work on a budget, I would...
1. Take advantage of blue. Cut some lands and all the Goldmeadow Harriers. Add Brainstorms and Ponders. This is a bit of an outdated arrangement, but it acknowledges that there is better stuff out there than what one might find in white alone at one mana. You want to end up at about 19 lands this way, so you may need to cut another spell as well.
Wow that was real quick. Didn't expect a response that fast.
Just curious, why cut harriers? It's slow but stops quite many things, but not too sure yet (unlike Legacy, where we only have very few creatures in play, casual you see tons).
As for BS, isn't it bad considering I have only 4 shuffle effects (if you add ponder, it's 8). Ponder and/or Preordain might be better instead. I'll try to fit in some draw though.
Well, if I could afford Karakas, I would For now, I'm stuck with Riptide.
I did consider Willbender and Sprite but not sure how useful is targetted counters (though reusable ones are probably good). And Mutavault is not budget, if I have to get them, I could top up a little bit more for karakas Might try Willbender though.
I tried sage but it's kinda meh, late game becomes a SDT, but early game is more of a block and die kinda thing =(
As for the rest of the options, I'm not sure yet. Thalakos Seer and Aether Adept was on the list just that relying on riptide lab heavily and the amount of mana to sustain seems fragile.
@Lorgalis: For now Glacial Fortress is better than Seachrome Coast since my deck is heavily based on white, and I want to reach more mana asap. Seachrome slows the mana quite a bit.
EDIT:
What does folks think of a Singleton Kor Haven in the deck?
I wanted Kjeldoran Outpost but I don't run duals nor enough plains to do so.
EDIT2:
I'm cutting 1 Riptide Laboratory for a singleton Kor Haven for testing. Update again. It could probably create some combat tricks but I'm not sure by cutting one riptide, whether it might screw up the Mangara/Vendilion + Riptide engine.
Right now, I think you have to refocus on what you want to accomplish. Your deck can't be all at the same time. IMO, there are 3 ways:
- Controllish build --> best for MP
- Aggrocontrol --> best for MP+duel
- Aggro --> best for duel
What do you want?
Also, pay heed to Finn, he know a lot about this type of deck, since he made D&T...;)
More of aggro control.
I'm cutting 1 because that riptide sits many of times in my hand doing nothing, unlike karakas who can at least produce colored mana.
I'm not too sold at draw effects over harriers currently.
I'm dropping the stoneforge currently too (partly because I can't find one at a good price here, so the equipment toolbox is a nono for now).
As for spamming Riptide bounce effects, I tried it but it was too slow and mana consuming (most of the time I don't really get it done), unless in MP but in that case, mangara and jace/elspeth come in, as the games gets drawn out.
EDIT: The haven is also there to produce some slight randomness for fun. But yet to test how it works in games.
EDIT2: A reason why I'm reluctant to use "better" spells is because, it won't be D&T anymore. I kinda want to play the deck just that I'm avoiding karakas and trying PWs over equip toolboxes.
EDIT3: Kor Haven will be swapped for a Plains instead. And I might cut 1 land (which might be a plains or kor haven) as I feel I'm drawing too much lands. Might do some re-configuration due to the plus 1 space in the deck... or I consider Kor Haven a spell =)
EDIT4: Got 3x Karakas for cheap. Added Aven Mimeomancer to test out his synergy with Elspeth.
Also: for how cheap did you get those Karakases? (Karaki ?)
The most latest list is on the front page, though it's mostly all on paper (I have exams today and next week).
The only playtests I made was against Sneak Attack (the full fledge Legacy one) and it was favourable (I won most of the games pre board, as we played with no SB, it's good to know I'm running riptide instead of karakas because it hasn't arrived).
Oh regarding the manabase, after discussion with T2 players, running both M10 and Scars duals (vs one against another) is much better than Terramorphics (seems as if unless I'm using Odyssey/Zend Fetches + ABUR Duals/Shocks), helps to ensure mana is much faster. T2 players suggested Celestial Colonnade for more mana fixing but it's very meh to me.
I ended up cutting to 22 lands cutting an island. Kor Haven works quite fun as a form of stalling/recurring removal.
As for karakas, I got them for about 18 bucks each (2 EX 1 NM), quite happy. Furthermore, with karakas, venser is less mana intensive to use.
I'm also trying Aven Mimeomancer, who seems to be a whacky card in MP. It makes fatties smaller and makes elsepth tokens, MoM, Harrier all become beatsticks, occasionally making factories bigger.
My current thoughts would be cutting Riptide Laboratory as I don't have mana to sustain the activation costs most of the time, and maybe Mystic Gate as it doesn't produce colored mana, still that leaves me land to cut.
What do you guys think would make the cut? Do I have enough plains to use a singleton outpost?
Also, what are your thoughts on Mistveil Plains? It seems meh in 1v1 games as you don't like to see it until late game. In MP, I run Elixir for lifegain (to survive) and to top up my library if necessary, or even not running Elixir at all.
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This should help people out who are addressing me in further posts: My name is Tenkai. It's not Tokobo. Thank you. =)
It's me again trying out to build a new budget deck. Making this my second attempt at doing so. (A reason why is because the jokers in my new casual playgroup all made decks that pro black =\ so I dismantled grave existence and traded the cards away for this deck)
So here's my current objectives:
A couple of things before we begin:
No Karakas as a playset costs a bomb.EDIT: Finn was right, the deck worked too slow for me without Vial, so I guess I'll be playing them.
Of course, I'll write a short primer on how this deck works.
Introduction
Bag of Tricks is a UW Weenie with, as the title says, a bag of tricks. It is those tricks that make it more annoying for than your opponents are prepared to deal with. These tricks seek to disrupt your opponent so that you can delay or even "turn off" elements of your opponent's strategy while your creatures deliver damage.
The entire deck in theory works without using any tricks and every card works fine on its own (like any typical aggro deck and my concept of deck building). But there are many tricks to employ. These tricks provide the control features and are what win you games.
EDIT: This deck is now more controllish than the original D&T, though still uses the tricks from D&T.
Note that most of the tricks will be explained below (after card choices).
Card Choices
Riptide Laboratory/Karakas
One of the engine cards in the deck. Bounces Venser and Mangara for tricks.
Mishra's Factory
Not sure if this is better than Faerie Conclave or should even be removed completely.
Kor Haven
A budget Maze of Ith that acts as a semi-form of removal and for combat tricks.
Ghost Quarter
Budget replacement of Wasteland. However, it's only good if your opponent is playing mostly or all nonbasic lands.
Goldmeadow Harrier
For combat tricks, stopping a fatty from attacking, removing a blocker, stopping an activation of an ability and even stopping a manland =D
Flickerwisp
One of the creatures for tricks. Works as a beatstick too.
Venser, Shaper Servant
Another creature for tricks, works with Riptide/Karakas too.
Jotun Grunt
Helps with running out of cards in library in Multiplayer or drawn out games. Can hit your opponent's gy if he uses it. Stops your friends who use milling strategies to win (excluding combo mill). And an efficient beatstick.
Student of Warfare
Looks pretty decent, though I'm not sure there's something better than this.
EDIT: Figure of Destiny is a better choice here but rather expensive. And depending on budget, I might just run Goldmeadow Harrier instead.
Mangara of Corondor
See Venser. Permanent O ring every turn is good too
Serra Avenger
While she can't be played on the first 3 turns can be annoying at times, vialing one wielding a jitte or being enhanced by Elspeth makes her a dangerous beatstick. Vigilance works great too, helps to block and stall long enough for Jace 2.0 to use his ulti.
Aven Mimeomancer
Is somewhat a form of removal, making huge creatures not as big. Has synergy with Elspeth tokens.
Unsummon (removed, in long games just bouncing the creature back to hand isn't as good)
Removal is good, originally Swords to Plowshares here. But still deciding whether it's better or not, it enables tricks with mangara too.
Condemn (removed, Oust is better)
Another spot removal.
Oust
I'm trying it to generate tempo advantage, but sorcery speed kinda sucks. But it's better than condemn and somewhat better/worse than unsummon. Once in a while you get Jace 2.0 with Oust, you Oust his creature then fateseal it away
Oblivion ring
Common Vindicate is never bad, might be a 2 of though.
Jace and Elspeth
Just there because I'm dying to use a PW in casual.
Umezawa's Jitte
I wanted a singleton of each sword from the sword cycle, but since my merfolk deck got dismantled, I just threw in the 2 Jittes here. Helps to turn the tide or fix the deck slowness/lack of power quite a few noticeable instances.
Current Decklist (60 Cards) (In multiplayer, just add 1 Elixir of Immortality)
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Glacial Fortress
1 Mystic Gate
4 Seachrome Coast
3 Karakas
6 Plains
1 Kor Haven
1 Riptide Laboratory
4 Mother of Runes
2 Goldmeadow Harrier
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
3 Epochrasite
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Glacial Fortress or Seachrome Coast
1 Mystic Gate
4 Terramorphic Expanse
3 Riptide Laboratory
3 Plains
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Ancient Den
1 Seat of the Synod
4 Mother of Runes
3 Vedalken Certarch
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Trinket Mage
2 Vedalken Mastermind
2 Serra Avenger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendillion Clique
4 Oust
4 Aether Vial
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Infiltration Lens
1 Behemoth Sledge
1 Sword of Vengeance
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Elixir of Immortality
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
2 Flagstones of Trokair
9 Plains
2 Goldmeadow Harrier
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Condemn
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
board
3 Cataclysm
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Condemn
1 Aura of Silence
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Runed Halo
4 Enlightened Tutor
Old Decklists
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Glacial Fortress
1 Mystic Gate
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Riptide Laboratory
3 Karakas
5 Plains
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Kor Haven
4 Mother of Runes
3 Goldmeadow Harrier
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Aven Mimeomancer
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Glacial Fortress
1 Mystic Gate
4 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Riptide Laboratory
7 Plains
1 Island
4 Mother of Runes
3 Goldmeadow Harrier
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Glacial Fortress
2 Mystic Gate
4 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Evolving Wilds
4 Riptide Laboratory
4 Plains
4 Island
3 Goldmeadow Harrier
4 Mother of Runes
3 Flickerwisp
1 Venser, Shaper Servant
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Student of Warfare
4 Coralhelm Commander
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Unsummon
2 Condemn
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Loxodon Warhammer
Tricks:
(EDITED: I'm quoting a major part of Finn's explanations of the deck interactions here as with Vials, since the deck is like D&T now, removed a couple of stuff you don't see in casual/legacy metagame references, changed Karakas and Riptide Laboratory can be used inter-exchangeably)
Link to Finn's Death & Taxes Primer: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=50057
To further add on from Finn's primer, with the U splash, gives us Vendilion Clique which gives us 2 choices:
Also, note that you can "reload" your planeswalker post ulti or after he has taken on quite a bit of beating and is about to leave you with flickerwisp.
Venser tricks (similar to how flickerwisp work)
The comes-into-play ability of the Ring will trigger, and you choose the target permanent. That goes on the stack.
Then you Venser the Ring - when that resolves, the Ring's leaves-play ability will go on the stack. When that ability resolves, since no card has been removed yet, nothing will return - finally, the comes-into-play ability will resolve and remove the targeted permanent forever.
Other Options considering:
Well, it's past midnight now and I'm rather tired, so I'll be going to bed now, apologies for any mistakes.
This list needs tuning, hope to get some of you guys input on this =D
EDIT:
Some interesting notes (mostly for me) compared to my usual decks:
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
I'm not too sure about Coralhelm Commander in this deck since the UU cost is probably going to strain the mana base a little, and in any case he isn't that good without other merfolk in the deck. You might want to consider Ninja of the Deep Hours instead, since he also addresses the need for CA (you generally always play him for his Ninjitsu cost). Vendilion Clique is strong in 1v1, but I am less confident about its value in multiplayer since then it's mostly better to use the triggered ability to filter your own hand.
I would like to see Brainstorm somewhere in the 60, you even have 5 shuffle effect lands to optimize its effect. You could consider cutting the Mishra's Factories as well if you include Brainstorm, since it makes it easier to hit land drops. I like the Oblivion Rings, but not so much the Condemns. The need for the creature to be attacking just limits it too much I feel. I would suggest Swords to Plowshares but I'm not sure how useful spot removal like this is in multiplayer. Unsummon could be replaced by Repulse since cantrips are great in MP.
That's all I can think of for now, I love Riptide Laboratory and CIP effects myself, so best of luck with the deck!
Trade Thread
I did. Finn's name is above. Though I can use citations if you like
EDIT:
Ok I just ran a couple of test runs with the deck.
It's kinda too slow to fit the weenie concept. I guess AEther Vial really has to go in.
I'm trying this list now.
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Glacial Fortress
1 Mystic Gate
4 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Riptide Laboratory
4 Plains
4 Island
4 Mother of Runes
4 Student of Warfare
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Oust
4 Aether Vial
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Feldon Cane
Made it more aggro, but I'll have to check on the prices for Serra Avenger and Student of Warfare, if they are too pricey over here, I'll use Coralhelm over Avenger and Goldmeadow over Student.
EDIT2:
Updated post.
Also, if I can find a Figure of Destiny cheap it will prolly go in too.
EDIT3:
What are everyone's thoughts on Gemstone Mine to feed Jotun Grunt?
Samurai of the Pale Curtain might be comparable to Grunt.
Seen some decks running benevolent bodyguard over mother of runes, but that's probably because mom wasn't present in MTGO at the time.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
I'd like you to mark what you took from him and link to his version.
Regarding the deck:
I really question the usefullness of Commander. While you have Vial to get past the UU, you really should be able to do better, in power and synergy.
Four Labs look like too much, unless they get blown up a lot.
Random cards that you might want to test: Galepowder Mage, Mistmeadow Witch, Ranger of Eos (with more 1cmc creatures), the SoM dual (I haven't tested them yet, and won't due to better options, but resulust would still be interesting, and in theory they could fit your deck).
Done =)
Though it's blurred since most of it was derived and changed to fit the budget (suboptimal) concept (i.e. He used vialed flickwisp, I use venser etc)
I'm currently using Commander over Serra Avenger like I said above. Other ideas would be Vexing Sphinx, but you'll never want to see more than 1 every game.
I'm running 4 Labs because D&T doesn't have CA at all, maybe with SoFI but that's it (but that's out of budget =( ). Maybe some CA ideas? The one I can think of would be Fathom Seer but looks real passive.
I avoided the above because of their cmc or activation costs (for witch), the curves actually end at 3, the 2 PW there are only good when the games drag, which by then I'll have 4 lands.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
--------------------------------------
"STAY CLEAR OF WHITE POWDER"
311 "Who's Got the Herb"
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Hmm in that case, wouldn't Journey to Nowhere be better? Works with flickerwisp too =D
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
But if the blue is staying in, Momentary Blink should be considered.
I would definitely replace the Commanders to get rid of the UU dependency, probably with Kor Aeronaut if a good, cheap flyer is what you are looking for.
Second, how about Stonecloaker for more Mangara tricks? Fleetfoot Panther is the best of these types of creatures, but its probably not worth splashing green for him. Others include Dust Elemental (1 as a kill-con may be fun), Whitemane Lion and Stormfront Riders
Cut the Jotun Grunt for them, he's pretty mehh.
Next, I don't think you need a Feldon's Cane - even in MP do you really plow through your library that quickly? If you do, then Elixir of Immortality is strictly superior.
Finally, you MAY be able to take it down to 22 (even 21) lands, you're spells are super cheap and AEther Vial is like having 3 extra lands a turn.
You are right, it's actually a budget water-down version of the Legacy Death and Taxes just that I can't afford Karakas and Jitte/Swords. Which is the reason why I'm running Riptide. Jace is there as a 1 of for fun mostly and I do meet decks that have heavy protection from a color (which lead to my mono black grave existence being dismantled), which allows me to bounce or break stalemates in late game.
Blink is good but it's not good on it's own, I rather use Unsummon. I tried to run Venser but he's rather mana intensive, since the curve ends at 3.
Stonecloaker might work as a 2 of, but I'll have to try it, since vial is usually on 3 for flickerwisp and mangara.
Dust Elemental could be tested, I'm not sure if it's better than Elspeth. I'm not sure about the Lions, since Savannah Lions might be better here. Riders has a rather heavy cmc for my curve.
Grunts are fine actually, deals with GY strategies, refills library during MP, deals with mill strategies (with the exception of combo mill which I don't see) and a cheap beatstick. But dependent on further testing, Kitchen Finks might take his place.
I'll drop cane then. Nice one on Elixir of Immortality, didn't know it existed
I ran some extra lands due to the U splash and colorless lands.
Here's my current list I'm trying.
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Glacial Fortress
1 Mystic Gate
4 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Riptide Laboratory
6 Plains
2 Island
4 Mother of Runes
3 Goldmeadow Harrier
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
1 Stonecloaker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Oust
4 Aether Vial
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Journey to Nowhere
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
What's a Legacy D&T player looking at my budget attempt of the same deck? o_O
My current list from the prior post is -1 Stonecloaker +1 Vendilion Clique -1 Echoing Truth +2 Umezawa's Jitte.
I'm not sure about meddling mage due to it being casual, and it's hard to know what my opponent is playing.
As for trinket mage, I don't have cards like Engineered Explosives to get a toolbox.
As for the last 2 wizards, I'm not sure about how it helps to the game plan (Vedalken Aethermage) and I kinda find myself either mana flooding or short on mana (Azorius Æthermage).
I'm also thinking of a black splash over blue to sac mangara and recur him, but haven't got my thoughts together yet.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Oh I missed the part about Vedalken Aethermage, will look into it, though not too sure as I don't run enough wizards to warrant it.
As for bounce, Crystal Shard and Vedalken Mastermind are probably the best. Though the mana base need to be fix alittle. But also, the only stuff I bounce during playtests are Mangara (exile engine) and Vendilion Clique (CA + hand disruption engine).
The issue I have with 3 cmc cards or abilities is that first, Riptide Laboratory unlike the original Karakas eats ton of mana. Second, I don't get 3 mana consistently unless I manage to stall the game long enough (vialing is fine though, but keeping too many 3 cmc ups the curve and slows it further).
As this is casual, I tend to agree that the aggro route might be better for 1v1. I think I'll try some creatures over harrier, though Goldmeadow Harrier is somewhat better in multiplayer.
As for Cosi Trickster, I don't see too many shuffle effects here as I would like (the folks here think using the newer duals, tapped/pain lands, and filter lands are better, heck some even just use pure basics). Maybe Coralhelm Commander, Vexing Sphinx, Student of Warfare or Figure of Destiny would be good here.
Also, note that this deck has kinda shifted away from the D&T style to a more controllish build (which is more fun for MP) and if D&T kills real slow, this is even slower, unless Jace 2.0 lands of course.
EDIT: Updated Opening Post. It still needs more work to fit the current version I'm running though.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Hmm, you managed to fit the equipment (which I didn't know what to cut), pretty much agree with some of the choices (I considered them too, just that the list I had was too much that it was hard to sort)
My other equipment toolbox was:
Mask of Memory sounds good over lens (I run many cheap flyers). Jitte isn't as insane in MP with so many people targeting it like what you think.
I'll consider getting mystics (once I get my pay) but I'll proxy first and test it out.
I kinda removed tutors to give it a little inconsistency (vs a tourney deck where I want consistent draws) so I don't go drawing for my gamebreaking cards so fast, more of a lucky topdeck here and there (which makes people go, "You got lucky!" and people feel more inclined to play again). Jace, Elspeth and Jitte is to kinda end the game quicker (or stall it to get a foothold) and give the opps I win thing, vs getting it out asap and win (indeed personally I do love consistency, which is the reason I quit EDH, but a linear deck.
Just curious, why a singleton SDT? I know that it's bad in multiples unless you're playing combo. Unless it's there during late games to filter gas (considering you cast trinket mage to get it out).
Your list looks fun though I'm kinda suspicious of the manabase and 5 slots taken for the equipment toolbox (Elspeth can be used as a giant growth for your creatures while moving towards her ulti).
EDIT:
Rewrote the primer and quoting Finn's detailed explanations of the deck's interaction.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Oh I misread it, saw the other 2 (SDT and Elixir) as equips, my bad too.
GW huh, Goyf and Taxes? Or the Living wish variant I heard in the threads?
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Yea I do.
I think it's probably because my list doesn't have CA as compared to yours.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Oh I thought you were referring to the list you posted here =).
Well you have like 3 Stoneforge, SoFI and Canopy, vs me Clique and Jace
Another reason, I'm using 23 is because I'm using Finn's stock list (his is 22), and destabilizing the manabase and increasing the cmc curve higher (so logically speaking, I should at least up the land count as I don't run REAL duals, where if I did, I'll have enough money to buy the whole D&T deck, Karakas and all).
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Yup yup.
Also, now Swords to Plowshares is about 3 each =D
The list now would be -4 Oust and +4 Swords to Plowshares. Would probably work a lot better.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Not yet I'm afraid.
My first day at work today, had Overtime and a school exam too.
Will try to find sometime to try it hopefully in the next few weeks. (Goldfishing doesn't really help as this deck isn't combo or aggro).
Through some games on MWS, some comments (since it's against random jank aggro and control decks, I don't actually consider them as real matches) though I need more serious testing.
Glacial Fortress and Seachrome Coast might be a split, though probably because I'm not used to not running Duals, and that due to lack of fetching effects for them I sometimes get fortress or coast both at right and wrong times.
Vedalken Certarch seems rather bad. He's not a dead card late game but he doesn't stall as well as Goldmeadow Harrier.
Vedalken Mastermind is great with Mangara or some combat tricks but bouncing your own permanents only seems lacking. UU is sometimes rather hard to cast without Vial here and there.
Trinket Mage turned out to be not as exciting. He does fetch SDT, Vial and occasionally a land, but Elixir seemed rather unnecessary (Jotun seemed to work better against Mill and GY strategies, or even when you're decking). He's nice in MP but very meh in SP.
Equipment is working great so far (though I'm using Loxodon Warhammer over sledge). Sword of Vengeance could be a cheap equip like what you suggested below, the other effects doesn't seem useful yet.
Back to work again, update more in the next few weeks, hopefully.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Well, this deck is designed to play both SP and MP (and without SB, the last time I used one, I faced SB against my TE Deck), ideally the focus is on SP, yet operational in MP.
Thus I focus mostly on the original D&T shell faster choices (I like efficiency in cmc :p), but using the more controllish cards in D&T, as I kinda hate straight aggro which is the reason why I'm running PW over equipments initially. Though with your help, looks like a toolbox equipment for CA etc can fit in too.
Ok my thoughts about the 2 duals (and I just realised mystic gate unlike Skycloud Expanse can't filter colorless mana lol):
Glacial Fortress:
-CIPT Tapped, so can't be played turn 1.
-But unless you get really bad land drops, it gets better from turn 2 onwards.
-Gets wasted.
Seachrome Coast:
-Good for early drops for early mana fixing.
-Gets real bad late game, dead draw too.
-Gets wasted.
On paper, Fortress seems the best, considering the curve (and mana to keep the engine running), but what do you think?
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
1. Take advantage of blue. Cut some lands and all the Goldmeadow Harriers. Add Brainstorms and Ponders. This is a bit of an outdated arrangement, but it acknowledges that there is better stuff out there than what one might find in white alone at one mana. You want to end up at about 19 lands this way, so you may need to cut another spell as well.
2. Take advantage of Riptide Laboratory. I do not like the card especially, but it says "Wizard". There are a lot of them to manipulate:
Meddling Mage
not budget, so how about...
Sage of Epityr
Somnomancer
Spellstutter Sprite Mishras become Mutavaults and add another Clique.
Stonybrook Angler Mother of Runes looks awfully good with this in play.
Thalakos Seer
Willbender Great for control when he is reusable.
Aether Adept
...just to name a few.
Wow that was real quick. Didn't expect a response that fast.
Just curious, why cut harriers? It's slow but stops quite many things, but not too sure yet (unlike Legacy, where we only have very few creatures in play, casual you see tons).
As for BS, isn't it bad considering I have only 4 shuffle effects (if you add ponder, it's 8). Ponder and/or Preordain might be better instead. I'll try to fit in some draw though.
Well, if I could afford Karakas, I would For now, I'm stuck with Riptide.
I did consider Willbender and Sprite but not sure how useful is targetted counters (though reusable ones are probably good). And Mutavault is not budget, if I have to get them, I could top up a little bit more for karakas Might try Willbender though.
I tried sage but it's kinda meh, late game becomes a SDT, but early game is more of a block and die kinda thing =(
As for the rest of the options, I'm not sure yet. Thalakos Seer and Aether Adept was on the list just that relying on riptide lab heavily and the amount of mana to sustain seems fragile.
@Lorgalis: For now Glacial Fortress is better than Seachrome Coast since my deck is heavily based on white, and I want to reach more mana asap. Seachrome slows the mana quite a bit.
EDIT:
What does folks think of a Singleton Kor Haven in the deck?
I wanted Kjeldoran Outpost but I don't run duals nor enough plains to do so.
EDIT2:
I'm cutting 1 Riptide Laboratory for a singleton Kor Haven for testing. Update again. It could probably create some combat tricks but I'm not sure by cutting one riptide, whether it might screw up the Mangara/Vendilion + Riptide engine.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
More of aggro control.
I'm cutting 1 because that riptide sits many of times in my hand doing nothing, unlike karakas who can at least produce colored mana.
I'm not too sold at draw effects over harriers currently.
I'm dropping the stoneforge currently too (partly because I can't find one at a good price here, so the equipment toolbox is a nono for now).
As for spamming Riptide bounce effects, I tried it but it was too slow and mana consuming (most of the time I don't really get it done), unless in MP but in that case, mangara and jace/elspeth come in, as the games gets drawn out.
EDIT: The haven is also there to produce some slight randomness for fun. But yet to test how it works in games.
EDIT2: A reason why I'm reluctant to use "better" spells is because, it won't be D&T anymore. I kinda want to play the deck just that I'm avoiding karakas and trying PWs over equip toolboxes.
EDIT3: Kor Haven will be swapped for a Plains instead. And I might cut 1 land (which might be a plains or kor haven) as I feel I'm drawing too much lands. Might do some re-configuration due to the plus 1 space in the deck... or I consider Kor Haven a spell =)
EDIT4: Got 3x Karakas for cheap. Added Aven Mimeomancer to test out his synergy with Elspeth.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
The most latest list is on the front page, though it's mostly all on paper (I have exams today and next week).
The only playtests I made was against Sneak Attack (the full fledge Legacy one) and it was favourable (I won most of the games pre board, as we played with no SB, it's good to know I'm running riptide instead of karakas because it hasn't arrived).
Oh regarding the manabase, after discussion with T2 players, running both M10 and Scars duals (vs one against another) is much better than Terramorphics (seems as if unless I'm using Odyssey/Zend Fetches + ABUR Duals/Shocks), helps to ensure mana is much faster. T2 players suggested Celestial Colonnade for more mana fixing but it's very meh to me.
I ended up cutting to 22 lands cutting an island. Kor Haven works quite fun as a form of stalling/recurring removal.
As for karakas, I got them for about 18 bucks each (2 EX 1 NM), quite happy. Furthermore, with karakas, venser is less mana intensive to use.
I'm also trying Aven Mimeomancer, who seems to be a whacky card in MP. It makes fatties smaller and makes elsepth tokens, MoM, Harrier all become beatsticks, occasionally making factories bigger.
That's about all for now.
EDIT:
If I would include a 61st card for further MP, it would be Elixir of Immortality. Added a Mistveil Plains for more randomness
EDIT - 29/11/2010:
Updated list:
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Glacial Fortress
1 Mystic Gate
4 Seachrome Coast
3 Karakas
6 Plains
1 Kor Haven
1 Riptide Laboratory
4 Mother of Runes
2 Goldmeadow Harrier
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
3 Epochrasite
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Need some input on some manabase options.
It's about my casual deck Bag O' Tricks.
The thread is over here, but it would probably be Necro-ing, so I thought I make one here.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=274549
This is the current list:
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Glacial Fortress
1 Mystic Gate
4 Seachrome Coast
3 Karakas
6 Plains
1 Kor Haven
1 Riptide Laboratory
4 Mother of Runes
2 Goldmeadow Harrier
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
3 Epochrasite
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Mask of Memory (will be removed for MP)
2 Umezawa's Jitte
// MP Addons
1 Elixir of Immortality
Before you ask, yes, I wish to keep the deck to 61 cards and not 60.
I was bored and looked for stuff to upgrade the deck, so I recently acquired
I was thinking to slot Fountains and Outpost in.
My current thoughts would be cutting Riptide Laboratory as I don't have mana to sustain the activation costs most of the time, and maybe Mystic Gate as it doesn't produce colored mana, still that leaves me land to cut.
What do you guys think would make the cut? Do I have enough plains to use a singleton outpost?
Also, what are your thoughts on Mistveil Plains? It seems meh in 1v1 games as you don't like to see it until late game. In MP, I run Elixir for lifegain (to survive) and to top up my library if necessary, or even not running Elixir at all.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)