Can a card be both a ridiculously powerful creature with Trample, and also have a killer draw engine tacked on in 1 card? Indeed, such a card would be absolutely insane, and that's what I think Thought Gorger is.
The card that makes this possible is the newly-errated Tawnos's Coffin (before, it was Phasing, now it's not). Unlike other "Exile" effects like Momentary Blink, the Coffin allows Counters and Auras to effectively stay on the creature! When combined with Thought Gorger, that means your +1/+1 counters just keep on increasing, and you draw increasing amounts of cards per activation. Heck, it even acts as protection against removal - just exile in response!
I was ecstatic at my initial discovery of this, but then struggled with the rest of the deck. It ended up being a bit janky...therefore I request your help.
Card Choices/Explanations:
Epochrasite - also very good with Tawnos's Coffin. Gets 3 +1/+1 counters per activation, and the counters stay on! Good early defense as well.
Spike Feeder - some more early defense, and is also another method of putting more +1/+1 counters on Thought Gorger.
Sylvan Ranger - Simple "Enter the Battlefield" abilities can be abused with the Coffin as well, but this is more for smooth plays to 4 mana.
Fertilid - As stated before, +1/+1 counters are easily abusable with the Coffin, but this is more for mana-accel. The deck's overall CMC is way too high, and that was a point I really struggled with - I could use a lot of help in this area.
Phantom Nantuko - alternative finisher also with Trample. Only 2 +1/+1 counters per coffin activation, but he is an early game staller as well.
Faceless Butcher - repeatable removal when timed correctly with the Coffin.
Vigor Mortis - If you can somehow get Epochrasite into the graveyard, then it's a 4 mana 5/5. Works well with other +1/+1 counter creatures as well.
Strands of Undeath - Auras also have "enter the battlefield" abilities, and this one is pretty abusable. Also regenerates to save your best creature.
Sickening Dreams, Zombie Infestation - early defense cards that can become game finishers as well. Not sure if it's "win more" at this point.
Dark Withering - I question the inclusion of this, but it is 1-mana removal...
Sideboard/Other Cool Interactions with the Coffin:
Voltaic Key - I really wanted this card to be in here, along with Artifact acceleration, but I really couldn't find enough artifacts to justify its inclusion. With Voltaic Key, it's possible to untap Tawnos's Coffin at instant-speed, thus allowing some potentially cool interactions. (i.e. Instant speed discard, removal, blocking)
Maga, Traitor to Mortals was potentially another win-condition, since the ability only counts the number of counters, not X with the Coffin. The problem is it's difficult to put more counters on it, but it may be a good choice if I decide to go Mono-black control.
Golgari Grave-Troll, Nantuko Cultivator, and basically all the other +1/+1 counter creatures can also potentially be abused. I really would love to put the super-jank creatures like Vebuild and Junk Golem, but the deck is janky as it is.
Funeral March is interesting removal since you can put it on an opponent's creature, and use Tawnos's Coffin on it, making your opponent sacrifice a creature every time since the Aura stays on.
Bloodbond March - a different idea for the deck I suppose. Not sure if the deck is built for the March though.
Deck Fixes/Suggestions:
I haven't tested the deck yet, but I think it has real potential if I can optimize it. Right now, I think the biggest problems are the overall high CMC and lack of control/disruption.
I suppose it can be easily fixed if I drop a lot of the creatures and focus on the Tawnos's Coffin + Thought Gorger interaction which should win most games. The creature slots would go to dedicated control/removal like Doom Blade + Tutoring for the combo pieces.
Granted, that route would be a lot more smoother, but I feel like it's a cop-out. I'd like to abuse Tawnos's Coffin to the fullest extent, with a lot of the creatures present, and I'm hoping there's a way to improve the deck for such play.
Other ideas/mechanics to explore would be: More Madness, Flashback, Threshold, Graft, and Reinforce.
Thank you for reading this ridiculously long post.
scrap sickening dreams, zombie infestation, and dark withering. Possibly replace with more madness cards, or stuff that does good in the grave. Skip the faceless butcher. Your bounce is too expensive to waste on that, it can be put to better use.
But yeah, here in a casual environment? Thought gorger rips it up when everybody isn't packing a handful of answers to anything you play.
Thank you for the suggestions. I've been testing some sample hands with a deckbuilder and running through some goldfish games, and it's not too shabby. I've made the following changes:
I see why you are playing Sylvan Ranger and Fertilid, but given that the coffin looks quiet mana intensive, i guess it would be better to play some real (read: faster/more efficent/etc) mana acceleration here. Cultivate, Kodama's Reach etc. Yavimaya Elder might be great here as well since he also fuels Thought Gorger. No real accelerator though.
And as always, when you have recurring creatures and green you should consider ETernal Witness.
Real Mana-Acceleration was definitely an issue I was pondering from the beginning. I originally thought perhaps Werebear, which is nice early and becomes a 4/4 beater late game would be a decent choice, or perhaps 1 drop accel with Elves of Deep Shadow/Llanowar Elves.
So far, Fertilid isn't doing so badly - I'd like to test it more for a bit. With the addition of Unearth, the card seems like a decent choice.
As for Sylvan Ranger, I merely wanted a 2 drop to fix lands, and so far it's been doing great. I dropped the land count to 22, and that seems to play fine with Sylvan Ranger.
Another problem was not having enough cards in hand to discard to the Thought Gorger. Yavimaya Elder fixed that problem quite efficiently. Also another great target for Unearth. Thank you for that suggestion.
Eternal Witness is of course a very good card, and I was going to add it, but then decided to try out Hag Hedge-Mage instead. When Thought Gorger leaves play with Tawnos's Coffin and I draw into Eternal Witness, it sort of becomes a dead card because I'll have to discard it immediately when Thought Gorger returns on my upkeep. Of course, there's the option of not having to return the Gorger, but I don't see why I would pick that. But with Hag Hedge-Mage, I can play it and the chosen card will return to the top, safely avoiding the Gorger discard.
Certainly there are both positives/negatives of that choice - if I chose Eternal Witness, then perhaps I can trigger Madness again off Thought Gorger returning, or there's the perpetual block option when combined with Unearth which is also a great staller to help out Epochrasite. I'm just ranting here, but I think both are valid additions to the deck, and I'll have to try both out.
scrap sickening dreams, zombie infestation, and dark withering. Possibly replace with more madness cards, or stuff that does good in the grave. Skip the faceless butcher. Your bounce is too expensive to waste on that, it can be put to better use.
I still don't believe that idea is terrible, but it didn't work out as well as I hoped. Self-discard clashes with the Thought Gorger strategy, so I did end up cutting a good portion. I'd still like to keep around 1 Zombie Infestation since it is a good way of turning cards into creatures, and another way of triggering madness besides Thought Gorger.
As for the Madness options, there really aren't too many. I've added Big Game Hunter in replace of Dark Withering, since it kills early heavy creatures and works with Unearth. Other choices were: Grave Scrabbler - I thought it was good, until I read "madness cost" only part. Nightshade Assassin - too much non-black cards now to be useful, doesn't work with Thought Gorger at all Call to the Netherworld - there's only 7 black creatures in total in the deck. Muck Drubb - cute, but difficult to time the madness trigger correctly Ichor SLick - too expensive to play off Madness Arrogant Wurm - only really good with Zombie Infestation, playing it off Thought Gorger requires way too much mana. Basking Rootwalla - free is always nice, but I don't think it fits too well into this deck.
It's not a bad idea for a deck, but it just won't fit into this shell. I'd have to force a lot more artifacts for them to be useful at all.
However, a different deck idea that revolves around the interaction of Artifacts + Tawnos's Coffin may be good as well. That way, I can even abuse the Voltaic Key + Coffin interaction.
So into something like that I suppose I can fit in Sculpting Steel/Prototype Portal, but I really can't fit more artifacts into this particular G/B version.
have you thought about Cold Storage? granted, it doesn't keep the counters on the Thought Gorger. if you had Spike Rogue or Fate Transfer it wouldn't be much of a problem.
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SELVAXRI! King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers "Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can." 375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev) Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
Laboratory Maniac. You'll rip through your deck, and the Maniac seems very much in-theme with a Madness deck.
You could try using Whispering Madness and equivalents to mill them out. You'll have a large trampler to cast the cipher, and it's a discard for madness. Might also want an Elixir of Immortality to save yourself without the Maniac.
This looks like an awesome deck. Very cool!
Private Mod Note
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"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
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8 Swamp
7 Forest
4 Llanowar Reborn
4 Llanowar Wastes
Creatures 22
4 Thought Gorger
4 Epochrasite
4 Spike Feeder
4 Sylvan Ranger
2 Fertilid
2 Phantom Nantuko
2 Faceless Butcher
3 Vigor Mortis
2 Dark Withering
2 Sickening Dreams
Artifacts/Enchantments 8
4 Tawnos's Coffin
2 Strands of Undeath
2 Zombie Infestation
1 Voltaic Key
2 Maga, Traitor to Mortals
3 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Nantuko Cultivator
5 Shielding Plax
6 Funeral March
7 Bloodbond March
8 Vebuild
9 Junk Golem
10 Mindless Automaton
11 Spike Weaver
12 Werebear
13 Nightshade Assassin
14 Stag Beetle
15 Call to the Netherworld
The card that makes this possible is the newly-errated Tawnos's Coffin (before, it was Phasing, now it's not). Unlike other "Exile" effects like Momentary Blink, the Coffin allows Counters and Auras to effectively stay on the creature! When combined with Thought Gorger, that means your +1/+1 counters just keep on increasing, and you draw increasing amounts of cards per activation. Heck, it even acts as protection against removal - just exile in response!
I was ecstatic at my initial discovery of this, but then struggled with the rest of the deck. It ended up being a bit janky...therefore I request your help.
Card Choices/Explanations:
Epochrasite - also very good with Tawnos's Coffin. Gets 3 +1/+1 counters per activation, and the counters stay on! Good early defense as well.
Spike Feeder - some more early defense, and is also another method of putting more +1/+1 counters on Thought Gorger.
Sylvan Ranger - Simple "Enter the Battlefield" abilities can be abused with the Coffin as well, but this is more for smooth plays to 4 mana.
Fertilid - As stated before, +1/+1 counters are easily abusable with the Coffin, but this is more for mana-accel. The deck's overall CMC is way too high, and that was a point I really struggled with - I could use a lot of help in this area.
Phantom Nantuko - alternative finisher also with Trample. Only 2 +1/+1 counters per coffin activation, but he is an early game staller as well.
Faceless Butcher - repeatable removal when timed correctly with the Coffin.
Vigor Mortis - If you can somehow get Epochrasite into the graveyard, then it's a 4 mana 5/5. Works well with other +1/+1 counter creatures as well.
Strands of Undeath - Auras also have "enter the battlefield" abilities, and this one is pretty abusable. Also regenerates to save your best creature.
Sickening Dreams, Zombie Infestation - early defense cards that can become game finishers as well. Not sure if it's "win more" at this point.
Dark Withering - I question the inclusion of this, but it is 1-mana removal...
Sideboard/Other Cool Interactions with the Coffin:
Voltaic Key - I really wanted this card to be in here, along with Artifact acceleration, but I really couldn't find enough artifacts to justify its inclusion. With Voltaic Key, it's possible to untap Tawnos's Coffin at instant-speed, thus allowing some potentially cool interactions. (i.e. Instant speed discard, removal, blocking)
Maga, Traitor to Mortals was potentially another win-condition, since the ability only counts the number of counters, not X with the Coffin. The problem is it's difficult to put more counters on it, but it may be a good choice if I decide to go Mono-black control.
Golgari Grave-Troll, Nantuko Cultivator, and basically all the other +1/+1 counter creatures can also potentially be abused. I really would love to put the super-jank creatures like Vebuild and Junk Golem, but the deck is janky as it is.
Funeral March is interesting removal since you can put it on an opponent's creature, and use Tawnos's Coffin on it, making your opponent sacrifice a creature every time since the Aura stays on.
Bloodbond March - a different idea for the deck I suppose. Not sure if the deck is built for the March though.
Deck Fixes/Suggestions:
I haven't tested the deck yet, but I think it has real potential if I can optimize it. Right now, I think the biggest problems are the overall high CMC and lack of control/disruption.
I suppose it can be easily fixed if I drop a lot of the creatures and focus on the Tawnos's Coffin + Thought Gorger interaction which should win most games. The creature slots would go to dedicated control/removal like Doom Blade + Tutoring for the combo pieces.
Granted, that route would be a lot more smoother, but I feel like it's a cop-out. I'd like to abuse Tawnos's Coffin to the fullest extent, with a lot of the creatures present, and I'm hoping there's a way to improve the deck for such play.
Other ideas/mechanics to explore would be: More Madness, Flashback, Threshold, Graft, and Reinforce.
Thank you for reading this ridiculously long post.
R: Copypasta Sauce {Browbeat}
UR: Mana Cache , One Spell to Bind them All {Magnetic Theft}
UG: Epic Struggle , All-In-Poison {Metamorphosis}
UW: Planar Overlay , Decree of the Bailiff {Saprazzan Bailiff}
BG: Thought Gorger , Dark Chroma {Umbra Stalker}
UBR: Dwarven Shrine
WUBRG: Dissipation Field , Maelstrom Nexus
But yeah, here in a casual environment? Thought gorger rips it up when everybody isn't packing a handful of answers to anything you play.
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-2 Faceless Butcher
-2 Phantom Nantuko
-1 Sylvan Ranger
-2 Dark Withering
-2 Sickening Dreams
-1 Zombie Infestation
-1 Vigor Mortis
-1 Forest
+3 Yavimaya Elder
+2 Hag Hedge-Mage
+3 Big Game Hunter
+1 Fertilid
+3 Unearth
Current Deck looks like this:
8 Swamp
7 Forest
4 Llanowar Reborn
4 Llanowar Wastes
Creatures 26
4 Thought Gorger
4 Epochrasite
4 Spike Feeder
3 Sylvan Ranger
3 Yavimaya Elder
3 Fertilid
3 Big Game Hunter
2 Hag Hedge-Mage
2 Vigor Mortis
3 Unearth
Artifacts/Enchantments 7
4 Tawnos's Coffin
2 Strands of Undeath
1 Zombie Infestation
1 Voltaic Key
2 Maga, Traitor to Mortals
3 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Nantuko Cultivator
5 Shielding Plax
6 Funeral March
7 Bloodbond March
8 Vebuild
9 Junk Golem
10 Mindless Automaton
11 Spike Weaver
12 Werebear
13 Nightshade Assassin
14 Stag Beetle
15 Call to the Netherworld
Real Mana-Acceleration was definitely an issue I was pondering from the beginning. I originally thought perhaps Werebear, which is nice early and becomes a 4/4 beater late game would be a decent choice, or perhaps 1 drop accel with Elves of Deep Shadow/Llanowar Elves.
So far, Fertilid isn't doing so badly - I'd like to test it more for a bit. With the addition of Unearth, the card seems like a decent choice.
As for Sylvan Ranger, I merely wanted a 2 drop to fix lands, and so far it's been doing great. I dropped the land count to 22, and that seems to play fine with Sylvan Ranger.
Another problem was not having enough cards in hand to discard to the Thought Gorger. Yavimaya Elder fixed that problem quite efficiently. Also another great target for Unearth. Thank you for that suggestion.
Eternal Witness is of course a very good card, and I was going to add it, but then decided to try out Hag Hedge-Mage instead. When Thought Gorger leaves play with Tawnos's Coffin and I draw into Eternal Witness, it sort of becomes a dead card because I'll have to discard it immediately when Thought Gorger returns on my upkeep. Of course, there's the option of not having to return the Gorger, but I don't see why I would pick that. But with Hag Hedge-Mage, I can play it and the chosen card will return to the top, safely avoiding the Gorger discard.
Certainly there are both positives/negatives of that choice - if I chose Eternal Witness, then perhaps I can trigger Madness again off Thought Gorger returning, or there's the perpetual block option when combined with Unearth which is also a great staller to help out Epochrasite. I'm just ranting here, but I think both are valid additions to the deck, and I'll have to try both out.
Thanks again!
I was pushing for some early defense with Sickening Dreams, Zombie Infestation and Dark Withering, and it seemed good in theory since Dreams/Infestation could also potentially be game winning cards. Additionally, it could dump Epochrasite into the graveyard for reanimation via Unearth/Vigor Mortis.
I still don't believe that idea is terrible, but it didn't work out as well as I hoped. Self-discard clashes with the Thought Gorger strategy, so I did end up cutting a good portion. I'd still like to keep around 1 Zombie Infestation since it is a good way of turning cards into creatures, and another way of triggering madness besides Thought Gorger.
As for the Madness options, there really aren't too many. I've added Big Game Hunter in replace of Dark Withering, since it kills early heavy creatures and works with Unearth. Other choices were:
Grave Scrabbler - I thought it was good, until I read "madness cost" only part.
Nightshade Assassin - too much non-black cards now to be useful, doesn't work with Thought Gorger at all
Call to the Netherworld - there's only 7 black creatures in total in the deck.
Muck Drubb - cute, but difficult to time the madness trigger correctly
Ichor SLick - too expensive to play off Madness
Arrogant Wurm - only really good with Zombie Infestation, playing it off Thought Gorger requires way too much mana.
Basking Rootwalla - free is always nice, but I don't think it fits too well into this deck.
Did I miss anything?
Again, thank you guys for the suggestions.
R: Copypasta Sauce {Browbeat}
UR: Mana Cache , One Spell to Bind them All {Magnetic Theft}
UG: Epic Struggle , All-In-Poison {Metamorphosis}
UW: Planar Overlay , Decree of the Bailiff {Saprazzan Bailiff}
BG: Thought Gorger , Dark Chroma {Umbra Stalker}
UBR: Dwarven Shrine
WUBRG: Dissipation Field , Maelstrom Nexus
It's not a bad idea for a deck, but it just won't fit into this shell. I'd have to force a lot more artifacts for them to be useful at all.
However, a different deck idea that revolves around the interaction of Artifacts + Tawnos's Coffin may be good as well. That way, I can even abuse the Voltaic Key + Coffin interaction.
Cards like:
- Walking Archive - one way crazy draw, but this one requires Voltaic Key + Coffin to be effective.
- Mindless Automaton - for More draw
- Junk Golem - jankiest finish card ever
- Clockwork Finishers - like Clockwork Condor, Clockwork Beetle
- Modular Abuse - Arcbound Reclaimer
- Proliferate Abuse - Contagion Clasp
- + backed up by Either an entirely colorless manabase featuring either Urzatron or Cloudpost/Vesuva
- Possibly splash Blue for Trinket Mage, Fabricate, Tolaria West, Academy Ruins.
So into something like that I suppose I can fit in Sculpting Steel/Prototype Portal, but I really can't fit more artifacts into this particular G/B version.R: Copypasta Sauce {Browbeat}
UR: Mana Cache , One Spell to Bind them All {Magnetic Theft}
UG: Epic Struggle , All-In-Poison {Metamorphosis}
UW: Planar Overlay , Decree of the Bailiff {Saprazzan Bailiff}
BG: Thought Gorger , Dark Chroma {Umbra Stalker}
UBR: Dwarven Shrine
WUBRG: Dissipation Field , Maelstrom Nexus
This is an interesting deck
King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers
"Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can."
375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev)
Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
You could try using Whispering Madness and equivalents to mill them out. You'll have a large trampler to cast the cipher, and it's a discard for madness. Might also want an Elixir of Immortality to save yourself without the Maniac.
This looks like an awesome deck. Very cool!
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.