So I've seen a bunch of people's early evaluations of M13 limited, and the apparent consensus is that blue is the set's worst colors. I have only played three events, mind you, but I consider myself a bit of a core set limited guru, and while I think it's a bit early to say that blue is the set's best color, I think it's significant;y more in the conversation than people are giving it credit for.
As I've posted elsewhere, Archaeomancer is my pick for the set's best common. In a format in which board presence is everything and the intrinsic value of cards is rarely amplified, this card puts decks way over the top. Sure, the 1/2 body is often irrelevant, but blue makes really, really good use out of bodies like this, not only through cards like Switcheroo, but through having a defensive core of cards like Augur of Bolas and Scroll Thief that can make combat difficult in multiples. Add that you're always getting back either a removal spell or something else that will effect the board meaningfully, for the second time, and you have a common that changes the game meaningfully.
Blue's depth at common is also much more impressive than people are admitting. Blue has five cards I actively want, and it offers about three to four others that I don't even mind playing in my limited decks. Encrust, Wind Drake, Faerie Invaders, Archaeomancer, and Welkin Tern are all excellent in this format, more so than they would've been in M12 due to other colors' general lack of fliers this time around. Beyond that, I have no problem playing stuff like Unsummon (susprise: made much better with Archaeomancer...the limited player's Snapcaster/Vapor Snag combo, in a way), Divination, Scroll Thief, and Essence Scatter. The color is more than deep enough at common to justify stronger props and consideration than it has thus far received.
At uncommon, though, blue really steps up. Talrand's Invocation is probably the set's best uncommon, and Switcheroo is very good in it's own right. Sleep is much better here than it was in M11, even if it isn't insane like it was in M10. Again, not surprisingly, these are made absurd by the addition of Archaeomancer, and either one plus a 'mancer often creates an advantage that it nigh impossible to overcome. The great part about this is that Invocation in particular is not a card coveted by other colors. It's like blue's Overrun, essentially, in that it's basically unsplashable and will make its way to blue players through non-blue ones at most competitive draft tables.
All colors have their bomb rares and duds, so I'm not terribly interested in going through those.
Compare this to most other colors, and you have at least a power symmetry. The caveat here is that I think blue plays really well with just about every other color in the set. Blue's quick evasion and opportunities for card advantage (mostly Archaeomancer, as it amplifies every Murder, Searing Spear, and the like that you include, but also stuff like Scroll Thief and Divination) play quite well with every other color to create a strong, existing archetype:
B/U is controlling, maybe more toward midrange, using removal and evasion to peck away for the win.
G/U is a solid midrange/tempo deck that abuses cards like Switcheroo even more through inclusion of value dorks like Arbor Elf and Elvish Visionary. Tricks of the Trade might actually be a nice 1-of that pushes through as the final huge chunk of damage on something like a Vastwood Gorger.
W/U is what W/U always is: evasion and curve. Sure, there are fewer overall fliers here than normal, but this color combination still offers more winged things than any other, and it can curve out with them pretty nastily. Add in Arctic Aven for extra insanity.
R/U looks to be my favorite archetype, abusing Archaeomancer with the good burn red has to offer, especially Volcanic Geyser. This is likely the most straightforward control deck of the bunch, which I love to play whenever possible. I was absolutely obliterated by such a deck in the final round of one of the sealed events I played this past weekend, and it had me drooling in anticipation of my next draft. Luckily, my slobber evaded his cards.
Overall, I think blue is the strongest color in the set because of all of this, and while it's certainly not miles ahead of any other color, I don't think listing it as the worst is at all reasonable.
Signalling is like farting: it's a natural thing that helps people avoid being where you are, and if you try to do it deliberately, things turn to crap fast.
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Surely better in Draft than Sealed a lot of the time. Archeomancer is the real deal, but unplayable things like Kraken Hatchling, Hydrosurge, Negate (decent in sideboard), Index, and Merfolk of the Pearl Trident make things difficult in the common slot.
As typically a three-to-four-hit-KO, Mind Sculpt is dangerous. Archeomancer does a lot to help this. The two extra cards milled along with Archy puts it leagues in front of Tome Scour.
So I've seen a bunch of people's early evaluations of M13 limited, and the apparent consensus is that blue is the set's worst colors. I have only played three events, mind you, but I consider myself a bit of a core set limited guru, and while I think it's a bit early to say that blue is the set's best color, I think it's significant;y more in the conversation than people are giving it credit for.
As I've posted elsewhere, Archaeomancer is my pick for the set's best common. In a format in which board presence is everything and the intrinsic value of cards is rarely amplified, this card puts decks way over the top. Sure, the 1/2 body is often irrelevant, but blue makes really, really good use out of bodies like this, not only through cards like Switcheroo, but through having a defensive core of cards like Augur of Bolas and Scroll Thief that can make combat difficult in multiples. Add that you're always getting back either a removal spell or something else that will effect the board meaningfully, for the second time, and you have a common that changes the game meaningfully.
Blue's depth at common is also much more impressive than people are admitting. Blue has five cards I actively want, and it offers about three to four others that I don't even mind playing in my limited decks. Encrust, Wind Drake, Faerie Invaders, Archaeomancer, and Welkin Tern are all excellent in this format, more so than they would've been in M12 due to other colors' general lack of fliers this time around. Beyond that, I have no problem playing stuff like Unsummon (susprise: made much better with Archaeomancer...the limited player's Snapcaster/Vapor Snag combo, in a way), Divination, Scroll Thief, and Essence Scatter. The color is more than deep enough at common to justify stronger props and consideration than it has thus far received.
At uncommon, though, blue really steps up. Talrand's Invocation is probably the set's best uncommon, and Switcheroo is very good in it's own right. Sleep is much better here than it was in M11, even if it isn't insane like it was in M10. Again, not surprisingly, these are made absurd by the addition of Archaeomancer, and either one plus a 'mancer often creates an advantage that it nigh impossible to overcome. The great part about this is that Invocation in particular is not a card coveted by other colors. It's like blue's Overrun, essentially, in that it's basically unsplashable and will make its way to blue players through non-blue ones at most competitive draft tables.
All colors have their bomb rares and duds, so I'm not terribly interested in going through those.
Compare this to most other colors, and you have at least a power symmetry. The caveat here is that I think blue plays really well with just about every other color in the set. Blue's quick evasion and opportunities for card advantage (mostly Archaeomancer, as it amplifies every Murder, Searing Spear, and the like that you include, but also stuff like Scroll Thief and Divination) play quite well with every other color to create a strong, existing archetype:
B/U is controlling, maybe more toward midrange, using removal and evasion to peck away for the win.
G/U is a solid midrange/tempo deck that abuses cards like Switcheroo even more through inclusion of value dorks like Arbor Elf and Elvish Visionary. Tricks of the Trade might actually be a nice 1-of that pushes through as the final huge chunk of damage on something like a Vastwood Gorger.
W/U is what W/U always is: evasion and curve. Sure, there are fewer overall fliers here than normal, but this color combination still offers more winged things than any other, and it can curve out with them pretty nastily. Add in Arctic Aven for extra insanity.
R/U looks to be my favorite archetype, abusing Archaeomancer with the good burn red has to offer, especially Volcanic Geyser. This is likely the most straightforward control deck of the bunch, which I love to play whenever possible. I was absolutely obliterated by such a deck in the final round of one of the sealed events I played this past weekend, and it had me drooling in anticipation of my next draft. Luckily, my slobber evaded his cards.
Overall, I think blue is the strongest color in the set because of all of this, and while it's certainly not miles ahead of any other color, I don't think listing it as the worst is at all reasonable.
Once again you prove how wrong you are, you are saying Archaeomancer is the best common, you gotta be kidding me. Also i think its funny you are excited about switcheroo when its a worst mind control and in some cases a dead card depending on board position.
The only thing i agree with you on is Talrand's Invocation, too bad green has a common 4/4 spider with reach and vigilance to completely shut you down.
So I've seen a bunch of people's early evaluations of M13 limited, and the apparent consensus is that blue is the set's worst colors. I have only played three events, mind you, but I consider myself a bit of a core set limited guru, and while I think it's a bit early to say that blue is the set's best color, I think it's significant;y more in the conversation than people are giving it credit for.
As I've posted elsewhere, Archaeomancer is my pick for the set's best common.
Once again you prove how wrong you are, you are saying Archaeomancer is the best common, you gotta be kidding me. Also i think its funny you are excited about switcheroo when its a worst mind control and in some cases a dead card depending on board position.
The only thing i agree with you on is Talrand's Invocation, too bad green has a common 4/4 spider with reach and vigilance to completely shut you down.
I try not to address poorly written drivel, but I'll respond to the single point you made, as it's not valid.
Sentinel Spider costs 5 mana. It's obviously very good, but blue on its own can simply out-tempo the spider or abuse its second color to handle such threats. Because of Archaeomancer, which only bad players won't recognize as incredibly powerful, blue decks don't have to hedge bets and hold off on removal of immediate, earlier threats. They can now effectively use their Murders and Searing Spears early, knowing they will eventually get second uses for the 5-drops that they need to handle.
Nice post, though. I can only imagine you've been off globetrotting, winning all sorts of Grand Prix and Pro Tours, given your considerable skill at this game. Congrats on that!
Quote from everydayishinesoclean »
essence scatter doesnt count as 1 of blues premiere cards? seems very good to me...
also negate is easily main deckable
Well, this further proves my point about blue, but I disagree slightly with the point. Essence Scatter is fine, but it's a bit more reactive than I want to be if I'm blue. I'd prefer to play a tempo and card advantage game than sit back on my situational counterspell and hope that my opponent's play justifies me not having added anything to my board. Sure, one or two is fine, but It's only an ideal card if you aren't even the slightest bit behind.
Negate, on the other hand, is way more reactive than I want to be in my main 40. Out of the board, it's a perfect answer to Planeswalkers you can't otherwise handle or a plethora of removal spells, but it's too often a dead card in the main deck for me to want it there with any regularity. It's a marginal 22nd at best, IMO.
Signalling is like farting: it's a natural thing that helps people avoid being where you are, and if you try to do it deliberately, things turn to crap fast.
Quote from Hardened »
I hereby found the American Chapter of the Zealots of Semantics. All glory to The Curmudgeon.
Having a real hard time imagining that Archaeomancer is anything better than just "good" in this set. You say its the best common in the set but even if we look at a best case scenario (you have a Murder in your graveyard) drawing another Murder is much much better than drawing a Archaeomancer. A 1/2 is not worth the 4 mana and most likely turn worth of time.
Not to mention the times when you don't have a good target in your bin and its almost completely blank. In blue alone Id say that Faerie Invaders and Welkin Tern are better commons.
Not saying that it isnt a good card that you want in your blue decks but best common in the set? Come on lets be reasonable here.
Because of Archaeomancer, which only bad players won't recognize as incredibly powerful, blue decks don't have to hedge bets and hold off on removal of immediate, earlier threats.
Now now, play nice. I know the post you were responding to was just a troll, but there's no need to go on the same level, is there?
I think that you are exaggerating how good Archeomancer is. Sure, Eternal Witness is a great card and outside of UW the 'mancer effectively is an overcosted and underpower version of the witness, since the best target will almost always be a removal spell.
Having a real hard time imagining that Archaeomancer is anything better than just "good" in this set. You say its the best common in the set but even if we look at a best case scenario (you have a Murder in your graveyard) drawing another Murder is much much better than drawing a Archaeomancer. A 1/2 is not worth the 4 mana and most likely turn worth of time.
Not to mention the times when you don't have a good target in your bin and its almost completely blank. In blue alone Id say that Faerie Invaders and Welkin Tern are better commons.
Not saying that it isnt a good card that you want in your blue decks but best common in the set? Come on lets be reasonable here.
I don't think you understand how Draft and Sealed work. Of course it's better to draw another copy of Murder. Is it going to happen, with regularity? Not really. You are more likely to get more copies of Arch than of a specific removal, and it still acts like a slower copy of any removal you run. Sure, you might not be able to use it right away, but you do get added flexibility, which is nice.
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Now now, play nice. I know the post you were responding to was just a troll, but there's no need to go on the same level, is there?
I think that you are exaggerating how good Archeomancer is. Sure, Eternal Witness is a great card and outside of UW the 'mancer effectively is an overcosted and underpower version of the witness, since the best target will almost always be a removal spell.
Actually I'm not a troll, but he is. You either have to be a moron or trolling to say Archaeomancer is the best common in m13, which is he?
How many sorceries and instants are you planning on playing, how about the times where you don't draw your sorceries and instants and its a 4 mana JUNK 1/2? This is why other "competent" players reviewed this card and accurately described it as a worse gravedigger.
How dare you call it the best common in m13 and don't act like your poor assessment of a cards power level means anything.
So I've seen a bunch of people's early evaluations of M13 limited, and the apparent consensus is that blue is the set's worst colors. I have only played three events, mind you, but I consider myself a bit of a core set limited guru, and while I think it's a bit early to say that blue is the set's best color, I think it's significant;y more in the conversation than people are giving it credit for.
As I've posted elsewhere, Archaeomancer is my pick for the set's best common.
Actually I'm not a troll, but he is. You either have to be a moron or trolling to say Archaeomancer is the best common in m13, which is he?
I personally don't care if a thread is started by Joe the homeless man. If the idea has merit, the source doesn't matter. If the idea doesn't have merit, who cares who the source is?
Your short response to him included
"Once again you prove how wrong you are...."
"you gotta be kidding me."
"i think its funny you are excited about ...."
"The only thing i agree with you on is ...."
"too bad ..."
"completely shut you down. "
That seems like you are attacking the messenger rather than debating the merits of the point. Now, I'll agree that Semantics has the annoying habit of doing this too in his posts. I don't think that it's constructive when it's coming from anyone.
dont see how its unfathomable to think mancer is 1 of blues top commons, depending on the speed of the format, decks like U/B control or U/R control could easily revolve around this guy. did you not play in rize limited? u/b(r) with the 5 CC wall was a house all that deck did was play removal and recur it.
I don't think you understand how Draft and Sealed work. Of course it's better to draw another copy of Murder. Is it going to happen, with regularity? Not really. You are more likely to get more copies of Arch than of a specific removal, and it still acts like a slower copy of any removal you run. Sure, you might not be able to use it right away, but you do get added flexibility, which is nice.
Of course I know how draft works. The man said this
As I've posted elsewhere, Archaeomancer is my pick for the set's best common
Which to me implies that in a P1P1 situation he would take Archaeomancer over Murder (or Welkin Turn or Faerie Invaders). That just cant be right.
If he had said that it is going to be the most underrated common or the best common that you will get on the wheel than sure he might have an argument to make.
I've heard in the past that blue universally tends to be better then it looks in draft, at least at first glance. Therefore I could believe blue secretly not being completely awful like some people claim. However...it still looks MUCH weaker this time around then in previous sets. Index and Switcheroo are both far worse then Ponder and Mind Control. There's nothing really comparable to Aether Adept. Why is it you think stuff like Archaeomancer and Welkin makes up for these blatant downgrades? If anything, red seems much better then it looks, since it gained a decent fatty (Fire Elemental) in addition to the usual aggro beats. It also flat stole one of blue's best effects in limited - looting! (Rummaging Goblin and Wild Guess).
Also, if we're going to do some direct color comparisons...you listed 5 commons you "actively want" in blue. Well...
Most of the above could qualify as "actively want" too (I'm sure some of these cards don't qualify, and that I missed a couple. Theoretically should average out.) Furthermore I am confident I can think "three to four others that I don't even mind playing in my limited decks" for each color. The blue cards you listed don't seem significantly better then the above. Also, yes each color has it's duds, but you can't just completely ignore them in your analysis. The % of the blue commons that are absolute crap will influence things like your likelihood of tabling cards, and how many drafters at the table the color will support.
I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that a 2 drop flyer, a 1.5-for-1, an upgraded Ice Cage, and Faerie Invaders can make up for these huge shifts of power. However, I hear you're a competent player Semantics, and highly respected on this forum. Are you sure that your opponents didn't just draft terrible curves? Or could you have possibly beat them through superior technical play? Maybe the good players in your pod heard/figured blue was bad too, actively avoided it, and then got bad decks fighting over other colors. My point is, unless you've somehow already done 10-20+ drafts (doubtful), its entirely possible that your success with blue was a fluke, and stems from other confounding factors. It's just too soon to really tell.
You can't think about sets in direct comparison to each other. Aether Adept was insane in M12, but that was mostly a function of how important tempo was. Blue decks had no real way of stopping R/B's raw aggression, and Adept allowed you to play a more fair game against the format's most unfair deck. That deck doesn't appear to exist in M13.
Welkin Tern and Wind Drake are actually much stronger here than they have ever been. At common, there are fewer other fliers that contend with them, as white lost out on the bulk it had in prior sets. Evasion is better in M13 than it was in prior core sets because of this, and I find that blue offers up a ton of great options to help play the tempo game once you resolve a couple cheap fliers. Again, though, one of blue's strongest points is how well it plays with literally every single other color. Sure, any color combination is technically draftable and playable, but I don't think any one of them can supplement an archetype like blue can.
As for the color comparisons, I never said that blue's best commons are far and away the best. People have been bemoaning how bad blue is on these forums since the set was fully spoiled, and I just don't see it. Blue's common base is at worst on par with most other colors, and I actually think it's deeper than black and red. Don't try and make this anything more than I did; I'm lauding blue, saying it's the color I most want to be right now. Do I think it's the strongest color in the set right now? Yes. Do I think it's way better than all of the others? Of course not. I said I think there's much more color balance here than people have given it credit for, and while my assessment is opposite everyone else's (apparently), I'm not suggesting that everyone should just drop what they're doing and ignore the other 4 colors.
I had a good deal of success this past weekend, but of the two losses, the much more difficult one was against the U/R deck. Archaeomancer was an absolute beating against me, as in the 3 games the 2 he had returned Searing Spear, Switcheroo, and Talrand's Invocation, and I simply couldn't beat the card quality advantage.
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Signalling is like farting: it's a natural thing that helps people avoid being where you are, and if you try to do it deliberately, things turn to crap fast.
Quote from Hardened »
I hereby found the American Chapter of the Zealots of Semantics. All glory to The Curmudgeon.
When you state that its the strongest color "right now", do you mean that in the context of everyone thinking its bad? As I alluded to before, is it just that you get more out of blue because no one else wants to draft it? If you simply think blue is being underdrafted because its not AS bad as people think, and therefore one of the best colors, that's fine. I can buy the idea that there are fewer blue players per pod then what the color can actually support. But your original post looks and feels like you were trying to make a stronger statement then this, which you now claim not to be the case. You'll have to excuse people for misinterpreting your argument.
EDIT Also, I notice you did not address blue's lack of looting, which last I checked, is basically good in every draft format. What of it?
You can't think about sets in direct comparison to each other. Aether Adept was insane in M12, but that was mostly a function of how important tempo was. Blue decks had no real way of stopping R/B's raw aggression, and Adept allowed you to play a more fair game against the format's most unfair deck. That deck doesn't appear to exist in M13.
Welkin Tern and Wind Drake are actually much stronger here than they have ever been. At common, there are fewer other fliers that contend with them, as white lost out on the bulk it had in prior sets. Evasion is better in M13 than it was in prior core sets because of this, and I find that blue offers up a ton of great options to help play the tempo game once you resolve a couple cheap fliers. Again, though, one of blue's strongest points is how well it plays with literally every single other color. Sure, any color combination is technically draftable and playable, but I don't think any one of them can supplement an archetype like blue can.
As for the color comparisons, I never said that blue's best commons are far and away the best. People have been bemoaning how bad blue is on these forums since the set was fully spoiled, and I just don't see it. Blue's common base is at worst on par with most other colors, and I actually think it's deeper than black and red. Don't try and make this anything more than I did; I'm lauding blue, saying it's the color I most want to be right now. Do I think it's the strongest color in the set right now? Yes. Do I think it's way better than all of the others? Of course not. I said I think there's much more color balance here than people have given it credit for, and while my assessment is opposite everyone else's (apparently), I'm not suggesting that everyone should just drop what they're doing and ignore the other 4 colors.
I had a good deal of success this past weekend, but of the two losses, the much more difficult one was against the U/R deck. Archaeomancer was an absolute beating against me, as in the 3 games the 2 he had returned Searing Spear, Switcheroo, and Talrand's Invocation, and I simply couldn't beat the card quality advantage.
Yeah, mancer is exceptionally good. Blue also seems quite good in this format. I think people are confused by the lack of splashy cards in blue, and it definitely has the worst rares. However, the quality of rares in a color isn't nearly as important as the quality of its commons and uncommons, and blue has some real nice ones.
Of course I know how draft works. The man said this
Which to me implies that in a P1P1 situation he would take Archaeomancer over Murder (or Welkin Turn or Faerie Invaders). That just cant be right.
If he had said that it is going to be the most underrated common or the best common that you will get on the wheel than sure he might have an argument to make.
I agree with this. Archaeomancer simply can't be the best common in the set; the cards it wants to get back to play a second time are the best commons (Murder, Searing Spear,...).
Call to Mind was borderline playable. Adding a little card advantage in the form of a Squire for 1 more mana is an upgrade, but it's still a long shot from being the best common, or even the best blue common. In some decks it won't even be playable.
You really just need to embrace the rage. I keep a small colony of hamsters next to my computer and every time I lose a match to mana screw I throw one against the wall.
I agree with this. Archaeomancer simply can't be the best common in the set; the cards it wants to get back to play a second time are the best commons (Murder, Searing Spear,...).
Call to Mind was borderline playable. Adding a little card advantage in the form of a Squire for 1 more mana is an upgrade, but it's still a long shot from being the best common, or even the best blue common. In some decks it won't even be playable.
Sure, it's easy to say that a card like Murder is a better first pick, and I agree with that. My claim is that due to the fact that it won't be taken as early as the other commons, when you really want it, when it will really be exceptionally powerful, it will often be available to you. The Call to Mind analogy is really, really imperfect, because the spells blue had to offer in M11 weren't nearly as impressive as those in M13. Invocation and Switcheroo (the latter of which actually interacts quite favorably with the fact that Archaeomancer is a creature) alone make it significantly better than Call to Mind ever was. Sure, the Squire body isn't ideal, but a bnody is a body, and with a card like Unsummon in existence, it becomes more tricky and reusable.
I guess I should clarify why I think Archaeomancer is so amazing. I admit to some hyperbole in calling it the "best common". It's never going to be the correct first pick over stuff like Murder, Searing Spear, Pacifism, or even Sentinel Spider. I'll clarify and amend my argument in saying that Archaeomancer is the common with the biggest upside, as in decks that really want it, no other common comes close to its power level. It's never a card I want to first pick, but it's always a card I want to maximize in my deck, as in a number of circumstances, it's incredibly potent and fun to play. As a quick addition, in response to Quazaar's point, while I readily admit I will take Murder over Archaeomancer, saying that you'd always rather have a second Murder is a Pyrrhic argument at best. You'd always rather have more premium spells, but the nice thing about the 'mancer is that it's not just a second copy of your best removal spell; it's theoretically a second, overcosted copy of all of your spells. While that's not going to be what some decks want, for the ones in which it fits well, I likely do want one instead of a second copy of something like Essence Drain or Turn to Slag.
I find that core set limited is so straightforward that you often need to be doing something more powerful than core sets tend to allow in order to go above and beyond the general slog of "guy, guy, trade, bomb" in order to allow for more opportunities to outplay and out-synergize your opponents. At the 2 core set limited Grand Prix I've played, I tried to recognize the most powerful archetypes in order to determine whether there was a niche way to beat them rather than simply joining them. In M10, I drafted nearly mono black when the rest of my table didn't see how strong it was, and I almost made the top 8 with an aggressive R/W deck aimed at beating all of the strong control cards I saw in packs 2 and 3 in the second draft. I'm making an educated guess that blue is the color that will allow for the most adaptability in M13.
It's absolutely too early to be making the strong kinds of statements I've presented here, and if I've offended, I apologize. I'm merely responding to the equally strong statements made by so many others so far, as I find the extremely negative evaluations of blue so far to be simply false. As the format progresses, we'll likely see a regression to the mean, so to speak, with all colors seeing their fair share of pluses and minuses, but I've been very impressed so far by what I see that blue decks can do in this format, and I'm not at all convinced that any of it is unrealistic in terms of what to expect as we all become more experienced with it.
Thanks to those who are at least making a conversation out of this. Sure, my unholy love for Archaeomancer is overblown and hyperbolic, but the overall purpose of this is to discuss blue's overall place in the set, and I still haven't heard much of a justification for why everyone seems to have it pegged as the worst limited color available.
@ T1memaster: I'm not going to respond to you anymore. You're incapable of engaging in productive discourse of any type.
Edit: just noticed this post, so I'll respond to it now.
Quote from LadyLuck »
When you state that its the strongest color "right now", do you mean that in the context of everyone thinking its bad? As I alluded to before, is it just that you get more out of blue because no one else wants to draft it? If you simply think blue is being underdrafted because its not AS bad as people think, and therefore one of the best colors, that's fine. I can buy the idea that there are fewer blue players per pod then what the color can actually support. But your original post looks and feels like you were trying to make a stronger statement then this, which you now claim not to be the case. You'll have to excuse people for misinterpreting your argument.
EDIT Also, I notice you did not address blue's lack of looting, which last I checked, is basically good in every draft format. What of it?
Well, I addressed that a bit in this post, so I hope that's an answer. I basically think that the vitriol aimed at blue so far has been way overblown, and my defense and attempt at uplifting it is likely skewed equally far in the opposite direction. I do think there is a great level of color balance in this set, so if in a couple weeks I still think blue's on top, it certainly won't be by a considerable margin.
I honestly don't think that blue's surprising nature so far has been due to underdrafting. I think it's just as deep as the other colors at common, and I think it's actually stronger at uncommon. The other nice part about it is that the color offers solid cards for everything from raw aggro to straight up control, so it should be able to support 3 drafters at the same table without too much trouble. I say "should" because none of us have played the format enough to know for sure. This is all supposition, to the extent that we need it to be.
As for the looting, yeah, I absolutely miss Merfolk Looter, but I try not to look at sets in comparative ways like this due to the difficulty in evaluating things this way. By that metric, red is flat out terrible in M13, as it doesn't have anything that even remotely replaces the likes of Shock, Gorehorn Minotaurs, and Blood Ogre! I'm trying to take a close look at blue within the context of the young M13 limited environment, and while I would of course love to have seen cards like Looter in blue, I think the way the color's offerings fit into the environment is more than adequate.
Signalling is like farting: it's a natural thing that helps people avoid being where you are, and if you try to do it deliberately, things turn to crap fast.
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Modelling what Archaeomancer does in terms of getting Murder back once seems wrong to me. Whether or not it's the best Common, the interesting part of the debate is:
1) Getting back things rarer than Common.
2) Bouncing the Archaeomancer itself using a lower value card.
3) Having more than one viable target. Choice is strong.
It's not intrinsically absurd to suggest that it might be the best Common, for these reasons. For example, in Ravnica/Ravnica/Guildpact draft the idea that Izzet Chronarch was the best card was considered perfectly respectable.
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I agree with Semantics that Blue is a lot better than people have been making it out to be, and I really misread Archaeomancer the first time it was spoiled. I'm used to cards like that costing 4U, so I kept remembering it as a blue Anarchist. Four is a lot more reasonable.
Still, while you're always going to run Archaeomancer, he definitely scales dramatically depending on your spell suite. You aren't always going to have tons of removal, but even recycling stuff like Titanic Growth is worthwhile. Who is going to block your guy knowing you are holding Titanic Growth? Who attacks into that? I still take Murder or Searing Spear over it obviously, but I agree that it's easily Blue's best common because of what it enables you to do.
I love the idea of being more free with removal spells in the early game, knowing you'll get a second shot at them later.
I'm completely in agreement after three sealed events and a draft that blue is being underrated by the majority of players right now, and I've found myself happy as hell to rip an Archaeomancer off the top almost every time. I've yet to hit a situation where he was my only play with nothing relevant to grab from the yard. He may be underwhelming evaluated in a vacuum, but in a good deck, he's great.
I'm just a bit skeptical because I had Snapcaster in Inn/Inn/Inn limited several times and it was just a poor Ambush Viper a non zero percentage of the time. How many spells do you need to run to make Archy worth it?
Blue's common base is at worst on par with most other colors, and I actually think it's deeper than black and red.
There's way too much hyperbole in this thread for me to really be interested in contributing, but since nobody picked up on this I thought someone should. You can make an argument about red vs. blue in terms of depth (I wouldn't agree, but at least the numbers are close), but not black. A look at the spoiler shows that blue has three commons that are just stone unplayable in 100% of decks and sideboards, as well as one common (Mind Sculpt) which is unplayable in non-gimmick decks and two more (Negate and Kraken Hatchling) which I'd be unhappy to maindeck. That's six out of blue's 19 commons that are not contributing to a regular limited deck. By comparison, red has two unplayable commons and one weak common (Wall of Fire), but probably four or five more that are bad (Flunkies, Reckless Brute, Kindled Fury, Volcanic Strength, Trumpet Blast) if you don't want to beat down hard. Finally, black has only one non-maindeckable common (Duress) and probably 3-4 more (Bloodthrone Vampire, Tormented Soul, Dark Favor, Vile Rebirth) that require some pretty specific circumstances to maindeck. However you slice it, black is deeper than blue, and I don't think this is debatable.
I'm just a bit skeptical because I had Snapcaster in Inn/Inn/Inn limited several times and it was just a poor Ambush Viper a non zero percentage of the time. How many spells do you need to run to make Archy worth it?
Something to think about is the mana investment. With Snapcaster you had to both play the Snapcaster and the targeted spell in the same turn. Oftentimes that wasn't a big deal, but while Archaeomancer loses out on the lack of Flash and surprise value, it does let you reclaim more expensive spells and stash them for later. Like, I'd be totally happy using him to retrieve either of the X burn spells, or Molten Slag, Rise from the Grave, Mutilate, whatever.
As for how many spells you'd need, typically I run anywhere from 6-9 tricks in a limited deck (or at least, non-creature spells). Again, YMMV, depending on the quality of the spells you can retrieve. Double Murder and double Archaeomancer? That's a lot of murder to pass around, it'd be like playing Game of Thrones.dek.
There's way too much hyperbole in this thread for me to really be interested in contributing, but since nobody picked up on this I thought someone should. You can make an argument about red vs. blue in terms of depth (I wouldn't agree, but at least the numbers are close), but not black. A look at the spoiler shows that blue has three commons that are just stone unplayable in 100% of decks and sideboards, as well as one common (Mind Sculpt) which is unplayable in non-gimmick decks and two more (Negate and Kraken Hatchling) which I'd be unhappy to maindeck. That's six out of blue's 19 commons that are not contributing to a regular limited deck. By comparison, red has two unplayable commons and one weak common (Wall of Fire), but probably four or five more that are bad (Flunkies, Reckless Brute, Kindled Fury, Volcanic Strength, Trumpet Blast) if you don't want to beat down hard. Finally, black has only one non-maindeckable common (Duress) and probably 3-4 more (Bloodthrone Vampire, Tormented Soul, Dark Favor, Vile Rebirth) that require some pretty specific circumstances to maindeck. However you slice it, black is deeper than blue, and I don't think this is debatable.
In that case, thanks oh so much for falling on your sword in order to share your measured wisdom!
Seriously, though, depth can be measured in more ways than one. Personally, I like blue's top 6 or so commons more than any other color's, especially given how well some of them play with playable cards in every other color. I find black's commons to be really unexciting beyond Murder, Essence Drain, and I guess Bloodhunter Bat, which in turn has me skeptical of how you're defining it as definitively deeper.
Sure, I've been a tad hyperbolic, but it was in response to hyperbole in the opposite direction, and I've still made quite a few cogent points that are at least worth discussing. Please don't be so holier than thou when it's not difficult to read the arguments themselves through the exaggeration.
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As I've posted elsewhere, Archaeomancer is my pick for the set's best common. In a format in which board presence is everything and the intrinsic value of cards is rarely amplified, this card puts decks way over the top. Sure, the 1/2 body is often irrelevant, but blue makes really, really good use out of bodies like this, not only through cards like Switcheroo, but through having a defensive core of cards like Augur of Bolas and Scroll Thief that can make combat difficult in multiples. Add that you're always getting back either a removal spell or something else that will effect the board meaningfully, for the second time, and you have a common that changes the game meaningfully.
Blue's depth at common is also much more impressive than people are admitting. Blue has five cards I actively want, and it offers about three to four others that I don't even mind playing in my limited decks. Encrust, Wind Drake, Faerie Invaders, Archaeomancer, and Welkin Tern are all excellent in this format, more so than they would've been in M12 due to other colors' general lack of fliers this time around. Beyond that, I have no problem playing stuff like Unsummon (susprise: made much better with Archaeomancer...the limited player's Snapcaster/Vapor Snag combo, in a way), Divination, Scroll Thief, and Essence Scatter. The color is more than deep enough at common to justify stronger props and consideration than it has thus far received.
At uncommon, though, blue really steps up. Talrand's Invocation is probably the set's best uncommon, and Switcheroo is very good in it's own right. Sleep is much better here than it was in M11, even if it isn't insane like it was in M10. Again, not surprisingly, these are made absurd by the addition of Archaeomancer, and either one plus a 'mancer often creates an advantage that it nigh impossible to overcome. The great part about this is that Invocation in particular is not a card coveted by other colors. It's like blue's Overrun, essentially, in that it's basically unsplashable and will make its way to blue players through non-blue ones at most competitive draft tables.
All colors have their bomb rares and duds, so I'm not terribly interested in going through those.
Compare this to most other colors, and you have at least a power symmetry. The caveat here is that I think blue plays really well with just about every other color in the set. Blue's quick evasion and opportunities for card advantage (mostly Archaeomancer, as it amplifies every Murder, Searing Spear, and the like that you include, but also stuff like Scroll Thief and Divination) play quite well with every other color to create a strong, existing archetype:
B/U is controlling, maybe more toward midrange, using removal and evasion to peck away for the win.
G/U is a solid midrange/tempo deck that abuses cards like Switcheroo even more through inclusion of value dorks like Arbor Elf and Elvish Visionary. Tricks of the Trade might actually be a nice 1-of that pushes through as the final huge chunk of damage on something like a Vastwood Gorger.
W/U is what W/U always is: evasion and curve. Sure, there are fewer overall fliers here than normal, but this color combination still offers more winged things than any other, and it can curve out with them pretty nastily. Add in Arctic Aven for extra insanity.
R/U looks to be my favorite archetype, abusing Archaeomancer with the good burn red has to offer, especially Volcanic Geyser. This is likely the most straightforward control deck of the bunch, which I love to play whenever possible. I was absolutely obliterated by such a deck in the final round of one of the sealed events I played this past weekend, and it had me drooling in anticipation of my next draft. Luckily, my slobber evaded his cards.
Overall, I think blue is the strongest color in the set because of all of this, and while it's certainly not miles ahead of any other color, I don't think listing it as the worst is at all reasonable.
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
As typically a three-to-four-hit-KO, Mind Sculpt is dangerous. Archeomancer does a lot to help this. The two extra cards milled along with Archy puts it leagues in front of Tome Scour.
Once again you prove how wrong you are, you are saying Archaeomancer is the best common, you gotta be kidding me. Also i think its funny you are excited about switcheroo when its a worst mind control and in some cases a dead card depending on board position.
The only thing i agree with you on is Talrand's Invocation, too bad green has a common 4/4 spider with reach and vigilance to completely shut you down.
also negate is easily main deckable
I try not to address poorly written drivel, but I'll respond to the single point you made, as it's not valid.
Sentinel Spider costs 5 mana. It's obviously very good, but blue on its own can simply out-tempo the spider or abuse its second color to handle such threats. Because of Archaeomancer, which only bad players won't recognize as incredibly powerful, blue decks don't have to hedge bets and hold off on removal of immediate, earlier threats. They can now effectively use their Murders and Searing Spears early, knowing they will eventually get second uses for the 5-drops that they need to handle.
Nice post, though. I can only imagine you've been off globetrotting, winning all sorts of Grand Prix and Pro Tours, given your considerable skill at this game. Congrats on that!
Well, this further proves my point about blue, but I disagree slightly with the point. Essence Scatter is fine, but it's a bit more reactive than I want to be if I'm blue. I'd prefer to play a tempo and card advantage game than sit back on my situational counterspell and hope that my opponent's play justifies me not having added anything to my board. Sure, one or two is fine, but It's only an ideal card if you aren't even the slightest bit behind.
Negate, on the other hand, is way more reactive than I want to be in my main 40. Out of the board, it's a perfect answer to Planeswalkers you can't otherwise handle or a plethora of removal spells, but it's too often a dead card in the main deck for me to want it there with any regularity. It's a marginal 22nd at best, IMO.
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
Not to mention the times when you don't have a good target in your bin and its almost completely blank. In blue alone Id say that Faerie Invaders and Welkin Tern are better commons.
Not saying that it isnt a good card that you want in your blue decks but best common in the set? Come on lets be reasonable here.
Now now, play nice. I know the post you were responding to was just a troll, but there's no need to go on the same level, is there?
I think that you are exaggerating how good Archeomancer is. Sure, Eternal Witness is a great card and outside of UW the 'mancer effectively is an overcosted and underpower version of the witness, since the best target will almost always be a removal spell.
I don't think you understand how Draft and Sealed work. Of course it's better to draw another copy of Murder. Is it going to happen, with regularity? Not really. You are more likely to get more copies of Arch than of a specific removal, and it still acts like a slower copy of any removal you run. Sure, you might not be able to use it right away, but you do get added flexibility, which is nice.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Actually I'm not a troll, but he is. You either have to be a moron or trolling to say Archaeomancer is the best common in m13, which is he?
How many sorceries and instants are you planning on playing, how about the times where you don't draw your sorceries and instants and its a 4 mana JUNK 1/2? This is why other "competent" players reviewed this card and accurately described it as a worse gravedigger.
How dare you call it the best common in m13 and don't act like your poor assessment of a cards power level means anything.
I personally don't care if a thread is started by Joe the homeless man. If the idea has merit, the source doesn't matter. If the idea doesn't have merit, who cares who the source is?
Your short response to him included
"Once again you prove how wrong you are...."
"you gotta be kidding me."
"i think its funny you are excited about ...."
"The only thing i agree with you on is ...."
"too bad ..."
"completely shut you down. "
That seems like you are attacking the messenger rather than debating the merits of the point. Now, I'll agree that Semantics has the annoying habit of doing this too in his posts. I don't think that it's constructive when it's coming from anyone.
Of course I know how draft works. The man said this
Which to me implies that in a P1P1 situation he would take Archaeomancer over Murder (or Welkin Turn or Faerie Invaders). That just cant be right.
If he had said that it is going to be the most underrated common or the best common that you will get on the wheel than sure he might have an argument to make.
Also, if we're going to do some direct color comparisons...you listed 5 commons you "actively want" in blue. Well...
White: Ajani's Sunstriker, Attended Knight, Aven Squire, Griffin Protector, Pacifism, Captain's Call, Divine Verdict
Black: Bloodhunter Bat, Essence Drain, Giant Scorpion, Liliana's Shade, Murder, Servant of Nefarox, Sign in Blood
Red: Bladetusk Boar, Fire Elemental, Goblin Battle Jester, Rummaging Goblin, Searing Spear, Turn to Slag
Green: Farseek, Prey Upon, Sentinel Spider, Primal Huntbeast, Arbor Elf
Most of the above could qualify as "actively want" too (I'm sure some of these cards don't qualify, and that I missed a couple. Theoretically should average out.) Furthermore I am confident I can think "three to four others that I don't even mind playing in my limited decks" for each color. The blue cards you listed don't seem significantly better then the above. Also, yes each color has it's duds, but you can't just completely ignore them in your analysis. The % of the blue commons that are absolute crap will influence things like your likelihood of tabling cards, and how many drafters at the table the color will support.
I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that a 2 drop flyer, a 1.5-for-1, an upgraded Ice Cage, and Faerie Invaders can make up for these huge shifts of power. However, I hear you're a competent player Semantics, and highly respected on this forum. Are you sure that your opponents didn't just draft terrible curves? Or could you have possibly beat them through superior technical play? Maybe the good players in your pod heard/figured blue was bad too, actively avoided it, and then got bad decks fighting over other colors. My point is, unless you've somehow already done 10-20+ drafts (doubtful), its entirely possible that your success with blue was a fluke, and stems from other confounding factors. It's just too soon to really tell.
Welkin Tern and Wind Drake are actually much stronger here than they have ever been. At common, there are fewer other fliers that contend with them, as white lost out on the bulk it had in prior sets. Evasion is better in M13 than it was in prior core sets because of this, and I find that blue offers up a ton of great options to help play the tempo game once you resolve a couple cheap fliers. Again, though, one of blue's strongest points is how well it plays with literally every single other color. Sure, any color combination is technically draftable and playable, but I don't think any one of them can supplement an archetype like blue can.
As for the color comparisons, I never said that blue's best commons are far and away the best. People have been bemoaning how bad blue is on these forums since the set was fully spoiled, and I just don't see it. Blue's common base is at worst on par with most other colors, and I actually think it's deeper than black and red. Don't try and make this anything more than I did; I'm lauding blue, saying it's the color I most want to be right now. Do I think it's the strongest color in the set right now? Yes. Do I think it's way better than all of the others? Of course not. I said I think there's much more color balance here than people have given it credit for, and while my assessment is opposite everyone else's (apparently), I'm not suggesting that everyone should just drop what they're doing and ignore the other 4 colors.
I had a good deal of success this past weekend, but of the two losses, the much more difficult one was against the U/R deck. Archaeomancer was an absolute beating against me, as in the 3 games the 2 he had returned Searing Spear, Switcheroo, and Talrand's Invocation, and I simply couldn't beat the card quality advantage.
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
EDIT Also, I notice you did not address blue's lack of looting, which last I checked, is basically good in every draft format. What of it?
Yeah, mancer is exceptionally good. Blue also seems quite good in this format. I think people are confused by the lack of splashy cards in blue, and it definitely has the worst rares. However, the quality of rares in a color isn't nearly as important as the quality of its commons and uncommons, and blue has some real nice ones.
*DCI Rules Advisor*
I agree with this. Archaeomancer simply can't be the best common in the set; the cards it wants to get back to play a second time are the best commons (Murder, Searing Spear,...).
Call to Mind was borderline playable. Adding a little card advantage in the form of a Squire for 1 more mana is an upgrade, but it's still a long shot from being the best common, or even the best blue common. In some decks it won't even be playable.
Sure, it's easy to say that a card like Murder is a better first pick, and I agree with that. My claim is that due to the fact that it won't be taken as early as the other commons, when you really want it, when it will really be exceptionally powerful, it will often be available to you. The Call to Mind analogy is really, really imperfect, because the spells blue had to offer in M11 weren't nearly as impressive as those in M13. Invocation and Switcheroo (the latter of which actually interacts quite favorably with the fact that Archaeomancer is a creature) alone make it significantly better than Call to Mind ever was. Sure, the Squire body isn't ideal, but a bnody is a body, and with a card like Unsummon in existence, it becomes more tricky and reusable.
I guess I should clarify why I think Archaeomancer is so amazing. I admit to some hyperbole in calling it the "best common". It's never going to be the correct first pick over stuff like Murder, Searing Spear, Pacifism, or even Sentinel Spider. I'll clarify and amend my argument in saying that Archaeomancer is the common with the biggest upside, as in decks that really want it, no other common comes close to its power level. It's never a card I want to first pick, but it's always a card I want to maximize in my deck, as in a number of circumstances, it's incredibly potent and fun to play. As a quick addition, in response to Quazaar's point, while I readily admit I will take Murder over Archaeomancer, saying that you'd always rather have a second Murder is a Pyrrhic argument at best. You'd always rather have more premium spells, but the nice thing about the 'mancer is that it's not just a second copy of your best removal spell; it's theoretically a second, overcosted copy of all of your spells. While that's not going to be what some decks want, for the ones in which it fits well, I likely do want one instead of a second copy of something like Essence Drain or Turn to Slag.
I find that core set limited is so straightforward that you often need to be doing something more powerful than core sets tend to allow in order to go above and beyond the general slog of "guy, guy, trade, bomb" in order to allow for more opportunities to outplay and out-synergize your opponents. At the 2 core set limited Grand Prix I've played, I tried to recognize the most powerful archetypes in order to determine whether there was a niche way to beat them rather than simply joining them. In M10, I drafted nearly mono black when the rest of my table didn't see how strong it was, and I almost made the top 8 with an aggressive R/W deck aimed at beating all of the strong control cards I saw in packs 2 and 3 in the second draft. I'm making an educated guess that blue is the color that will allow for the most adaptability in M13.
It's absolutely too early to be making the strong kinds of statements I've presented here, and if I've offended, I apologize. I'm merely responding to the equally strong statements made by so many others so far, as I find the extremely negative evaluations of blue so far to be simply false. As the format progresses, we'll likely see a regression to the mean, so to speak, with all colors seeing their fair share of pluses and minuses, but I've been very impressed so far by what I see that blue decks can do in this format, and I'm not at all convinced that any of it is unrealistic in terms of what to expect as we all become more experienced with it.
Thanks to those who are at least making a conversation out of this. Sure, my unholy love for Archaeomancer is overblown and hyperbolic, but the overall purpose of this is to discuss blue's overall place in the set, and I still haven't heard much of a justification for why everyone seems to have it pegged as the worst limited color available.
@ T1memaster: I'm not going to respond to you anymore. You're incapable of engaging in productive discourse of any type.
Edit: just noticed this post, so I'll respond to it now.
Well, I addressed that a bit in this post, so I hope that's an answer. I basically think that the vitriol aimed at blue so far has been way overblown, and my defense and attempt at uplifting it is likely skewed equally far in the opposite direction. I do think there is a great level of color balance in this set, so if in a couple weeks I still think blue's on top, it certainly won't be by a considerable margin.
I honestly don't think that blue's surprising nature so far has been due to underdrafting. I think it's just as deep as the other colors at common, and I think it's actually stronger at uncommon. The other nice part about it is that the color offers solid cards for everything from raw aggro to straight up control, so it should be able to support 3 drafters at the same table without too much trouble. I say "should" because none of us have played the format enough to know for sure. This is all supposition, to the extent that we need it to be.
As for the looting, yeah, I absolutely miss Merfolk Looter, but I try not to look at sets in comparative ways like this due to the difficulty in evaluating things this way. By that metric, red is flat out terrible in M13, as it doesn't have anything that even remotely replaces the likes of Shock, Gorehorn Minotaurs, and Blood Ogre! I'm trying to take a close look at blue within the context of the young M13 limited environment, and while I would of course love to have seen cards like Looter in blue, I think the way the color's offerings fit into the environment is more than adequate.
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
1) Getting back things rarer than Common.
2) Bouncing the Archaeomancer itself using a lower value card.
3) Having more than one viable target. Choice is strong.
It's not intrinsically absurd to suggest that it might be the best Common, for these reasons. For example, in Ravnica/Ravnica/Guildpact draft the idea that Izzet Chronarch was the best card was considered perfectly respectable.
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Still, while you're always going to run Archaeomancer, he definitely scales dramatically depending on your spell suite. You aren't always going to have tons of removal, but even recycling stuff like Titanic Growth is worthwhile. Who is going to block your guy knowing you are holding Titanic Growth? Who attacks into that? I still take Murder or Searing Spear over it obviously, but I agree that it's easily Blue's best common because of what it enables you to do.
I love the idea of being more free with removal spells in the early game, knowing you'll get a second shot at them later.
Heaven help your opponent if you get some kind of Archaeomancer-Roaring Primadox-Talrand's Invocation chain going. But here I am again in Magic Christmas Land.
There's way too much hyperbole in this thread for me to really be interested in contributing, but since nobody picked up on this I thought someone should. You can make an argument about red vs. blue in terms of depth (I wouldn't agree, but at least the numbers are close), but not black. A look at the spoiler shows that blue has three commons that are just stone unplayable in 100% of decks and sideboards, as well as one common (Mind Sculpt) which is unplayable in non-gimmick decks and two more (Negate and Kraken Hatchling) which I'd be unhappy to maindeck. That's six out of blue's 19 commons that are not contributing to a regular limited deck. By comparison, red has two unplayable commons and one weak common (Wall of Fire), but probably four or five more that are bad (Flunkies, Reckless Brute, Kindled Fury, Volcanic Strength, Trumpet Blast) if you don't want to beat down hard. Finally, black has only one non-maindeckable common (Duress) and probably 3-4 more (Bloodthrone Vampire, Tormented Soul, Dark Favor, Vile Rebirth) that require some pretty specific circumstances to maindeck. However you slice it, black is deeper than blue, and I don't think this is debatable.
Something to think about is the mana investment. With Snapcaster you had to both play the Snapcaster and the targeted spell in the same turn. Oftentimes that wasn't a big deal, but while Archaeomancer loses out on the lack of Flash and surprise value, it does let you reclaim more expensive spells and stash them for later. Like, I'd be totally happy using him to retrieve either of the X burn spells, or Molten Slag, Rise from the Grave, Mutilate, whatever.
As for how many spells you'd need, typically I run anywhere from 6-9 tricks in a limited deck (or at least, non-creature spells). Again, YMMV, depending on the quality of the spells you can retrieve. Double Murder and double Archaeomancer? That's a lot of murder to pass around, it'd be like playing Game of Thrones.dek.
In that case, thanks oh so much for falling on your sword in order to share your measured wisdom!
Seriously, though, depth can be measured in more ways than one. Personally, I like blue's top 6 or so commons more than any other color's, especially given how well some of them play with playable cards in every other color. I find black's commons to be really unexciting beyond Murder, Essence Drain, and I guess Bloodhunter Bat, which in turn has me skeptical of how you're defining it as definitively deeper.
Sure, I've been a tad hyperbolic, but it was in response to hyperbole in the opposite direction, and I've still made quite a few cogent points that are at least worth discussing. Please don't be so holier than thou when it's not difficult to read the arguments themselves through the exaggeration.
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance: