Even if "Okay" was some magical priority passing word (which I wouldn't consider it), that doesn't mean you move immediately to declaring attackers, and he was wrong to assume that. For all he knows your "okay" was just saying you were letting the ability of the tapper resolve before casting or doing anything else. That type of ambiguity is why "okay" is not appropriate as a catch all priority passer. At higher levels of play saying something more specific like "declare attackers?" would be much better from a clarity standpoint.
But you are wrong ^^ you quoted the right rules but came to the wrong conclusions. Once the declare attackers step starts, no player receives priority before attackers are declared. And once they are declared, tapping them is too late. You missed the important part (bolded) that this doesn't use the stack, so you can't tap inbetween.
He should have just said "I like to declare attackers" or "beginning of combat" or "attack?" or something similar. Just declaring attackers is jumping the gun on his part, so the OP can decline to use the shortcut and stopp in the beginning of combat step (last chance to interfere before attackers are declared) and do his tapping, flashing, etc here.
Everyone Ive played with says "declaring attacks" at which point you respond with tapping their creatures or something else. You sound like an idiot trying to argue word usage.
Your only point is he should have said "beginning of combat" and how many people actually say that? AFTER he has declared attackers and you dont do anything its too late, if he says "declaring attacks" and you tap his creature in response, im sure the judge is not going to argue word usage like you are.
Please don't call people "jackass" or "idiot". Infraction issued.
-Sene
So I've seen a bunch of people's early evaluations of M13 limited, and the apparent consensus is that blue is the set's worst colors. I have only played three events, mind you, but I consider myself a bit of a core set limited guru, and while I think it's a bit early to say that blue is the set's best color, I think it's significant;y more in the conversation than people are giving it credit for.
As I've posted elsewhere, Archaeomancer is my pick for the set's best common.
@T1memaster: Neon's point was not that the person should've said "beginning of combat", it's that saying "declaring attacks" is a request/shortcut for skipping through to that step, giving the other player a chance to stop at a previous step (beginning of combat) in order to tap down attackers.
The rest of your post is basically exactly what Neon-chan was saying, so I'm not sure what you're arguing about.
I have played against plenty of people who say "entering combat step" or something to that effect when there is a tapper or other effect on board. Heck, that's what I always do. That way it eliminates confusion.
However, saying "attacking" is a shortcut that everyone knows means: 1) entering attack step 2) declaring attackers. It's perfectly fine for the other player to say "wait, I will tap your guy before attackers are declared." That's 100% correct.
I am an L1 judge. Based on what you said, I'd just say chill out and let you do your abilities. At a pre, there's no need for "gotcha" stuff like that. For that reason I'd probably also just straight tell your op to not be a jerk too.
I have played against plenty of people who say "entering combat step" or something to that effect when there is a tapper or other effect on board. Heck, that's what I always do. That way it eliminates confusion.
However, saying "attacking" is a shortcut that everyone knows means: 1) entering attack step 2) declaring attackers. It's perfectly fine for the other player to say "wait, I will tap your guy before attackers are declared." That's 100% correct.
Thats what i said and Neon tried to act like saying "attacking" meant you were wrong.
So I've seen a bunch of people's early evaluations of M13 limited, and the apparent consensus is that blue is the set's worst colors. I have only played three events, mind you, but I consider myself a bit of a core set limited guru, and while I think it's a bit early to say that blue is the set's best color, I think it's significant;y more in the conversation than people are giving it credit for.
As I've posted elsewhere, Archaeomancer is my pick for the set's best common.
After rereading every post Neon made in this thread multiple times, I still can't find where he says or even remotely imples that "saying attacking means you're wrong", would you mind linking/quoting that post?
The closest I found was
He should have just said "I like to declare attackers" or "beginning of combat" or "attack?" or something similar.
and as far as I can tell, "attacking" is "something similar", no?
The point Neon is making is that if you say "attacking" and start declaring your attackers before the opponent has a chance to say anything, the opponent has the right to deny you the use of the shortcut, backing the game up to the beginning of combat, and tapping your creatures during that step, the end result being that you give away free information regarding what attacks would be made.
The other point made is that if you explicitly allow your opponent to start declaring attackers, you cannot tap anything down *while* attackers are being declared.
The point Neon is making is that if you say "attacking" and start declaring your attackers before the opponent has a chance to say anything, the opponent has the right to deny you the use of the shortcut, backing the game up to the beginning of combat, and tapping your creatures during that step, the end result being that you give away free information regarding what attacks would be made.
This. I've been playing at a competitive level (as in, not kitchen table Magic) for 9 years and this is always how combat has been handled. It may not be in the rules but it's the generally accepted procedure. If you don't give your opponent an explicit chance to respond to entering the combat phase, he has the right to rewind the game to that point.
After a while you just get in the habit of saying "Declare attack?" or something like that before you indicate your attackers, so your opponent has an obvious prompt to tap creatures or whatever.
If you say "Declare attack?" and they say "Sure" and you then tap your attackers, then they missed the window. But saying "OK" after resolving an effect during the beginning of combat is not remotely an indication that you're giving up priority. You're just saying "OK, that resolved, now let me think if I want to do anything else." And even if your opponent misunderstands and starts tapping attackers, you can rewind.
Unless the defending player intentionally misled the attacking player (like saying something more specific like "OK, fine, go ahead...") every judge would agree with this interpretation.
Actually, I just was opposing the explanation that responding to the declaration of attackers is the right way to handle such a situation. While you can always decline the shortcut of immidiatly declare attackers and rewind to beginning of combat, you never respond to declaring attackers, that's just not possible. In reality, it just works like Phyrre explained, but no reason not to learn it right.
Exactly. Prereleases and release events should be as much for playing with the new set as they are for teaching players about the game. I don't think anyone here is condoning being a rules Nazi at such an event, but there is a fine line between playing by the rules and letting someone who doesn't understand them continue to make rules errors in the name of letting them have fun.
I see absolutely no problem with calmly explaining to an opponent in a friendly way how the attack phase works and then letting them use whatever terminology they want, so long as I understand what they mean. In a format that includes cards like Avacynian Priest and Feeling of Dread, it becomes more important for players to understand how that first step in the attack phase operates.
In short, it's a low REL tournament, so just help people understand the rules in a nice way. Everyone should be there to have fun, as there's only a small amount of Planeswalker Points up for grabs anyway. Just adhere to my one rule of Magic tournaments: make sure you have fun, and if you can't for some reason, don't let it get in the way of others enjoying themselves.
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:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
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This thread kinda got derailed with rules discussion. Whether my opponent was right or wrong is irrelevant. This has more to do with his attitude about it. I don't think he was trying to cheat. I think he was just trying to be a jerk because, to him, newbies are annoying and are a hindrance to everyone's level of fun. They should stick to themselves and leave the big boys alone.
I'm a pretty "by the book" person myself, but I hope I never become anything like that guy when I've had a few more tournaments under my belt.
This thread kinda got derailed with rules discussion. Whether my opponent was right or wrong is irrelevant. This has more to do with his attitude about it. I don't think he was trying to cheat. I think he was just trying to be a jerk because, to him, newbies are annoying and are a hindrance to everyone's level of fun. They should stick to themselves and leave the big boys alone.
I'm a pretty "by the book" person myself, but I hope I never become anything like that guy when I've had a few more tournaments under my belt.
I'll tell you the same thing I told a player at the prerelease.
Really good players are usually pretty nice. Mediocre players who think they're all-stars are the ones you have to worry about.
As long as you continue to play and improve and keep a good attitude, there's no reason you can't play, have fun, and do well.
U/B Control
Everyone Ive played with says "declaring attacks" at which point you respond with tapping their creatures or something else. You sound like an idiot trying to argue word usage.
Your only point is he should have said "beginning of combat" and how many people actually say that? AFTER he has declared attackers and you dont do anything its too late, if he says "declaring attacks" and you tap his creature in response, im sure the judge is not going to argue word usage like you are.
Please don't call people "jackass" or "idiot". Infraction issued.
-Sene
The rest of your post is basically exactly what Neon-chan was saying, so I'm not sure what you're arguing about.
However, saying "attacking" is a shortcut that everyone knows means: 1) entering attack step 2) declaring attackers. It's perfectly fine for the other player to say "wait, I will tap your guy before attackers are declared." That's 100% correct.
*DCI Rules Advisor*
Thats what i said and Neon tried to act like saying "attacking" meant you were wrong.
The closest I found was
and as far as I can tell, "attacking" is "something similar", no?
The point Neon is making is that if you say "attacking" and start declaring your attackers before the opponent has a chance to say anything, the opponent has the right to deny you the use of the shortcut, backing the game up to the beginning of combat, and tapping your creatures during that step, the end result being that you give away free information regarding what attacks would be made.
The other point made is that if you explicitly allow your opponent to start declaring attackers, you cannot tap anything down *while* attackers are being declared.
This. I've been playing at a competitive level (as in, not kitchen table Magic) for 9 years and this is always how combat has been handled. It may not be in the rules but it's the generally accepted procedure. If you don't give your opponent an explicit chance to respond to entering the combat phase, he has the right to rewind the game to that point.
After a while you just get in the habit of saying "Declare attack?" or something like that before you indicate your attackers, so your opponent has an obvious prompt to tap creatures or whatever.
If you say "Declare attack?" and they say "Sure" and you then tap your attackers, then they missed the window. But saying "OK" after resolving an effect during the beginning of combat is not remotely an indication that you're giving up priority. You're just saying "OK, that resolved, now let me think if I want to do anything else." And even if your opponent misunderstands and starts tapping attackers, you can rewind.
Unless the defending player intentionally misled the attacking player (like saying something more specific like "OK, fine, go ahead...") every judge would agree with this interpretation.
Exactly. Prereleases and release events should be as much for playing with the new set as they are for teaching players about the game. I don't think anyone here is condoning being a rules Nazi at such an event, but there is a fine line between playing by the rules and letting someone who doesn't understand them continue to make rules errors in the name of letting them have fun.
I see absolutely no problem with calmly explaining to an opponent in a friendly way how the attack phase works and then letting them use whatever terminology they want, so long as I understand what they mean. In a format that includes cards like Avacynian Priest and Feeling of Dread, it becomes more important for players to understand how that first step in the attack phase operates.
In short, it's a low REL tournament, so just help people understand the rules in a nice way. Everyone should be there to have fun, as there's only a small amount of Planeswalker Points up for grabs anyway. Just adhere to my one rule of Magic tournaments: make sure you have fun, and if you can't for some reason, don't let it get in the way of others enjoying themselves.
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
This thread kinda got derailed with rules discussion. Whether my opponent was right or wrong is irrelevant. This has more to do with his attitude about it. I don't think he was trying to cheat. I think he was just trying to be a jerk because, to him, newbies are annoying and are a hindrance to everyone's level of fun. They should stick to themselves and leave the big boys alone.
I'm a pretty "by the book" person myself, but I hope I never become anything like that guy when I've had a few more tournaments under my belt.
I'll tell you the same thing I told a player at the prerelease.
Really good players are usually pretty nice. Mediocre players who think they're all-stars are the ones you have to worry about.
As long as you continue to play and improve and keep a good attitude, there's no reason you can't play, have fun, and do well.
*DCI Rules Advisor*