I tried searching for the answer, but couldn't find exactly what I was looking for. Forgive me if this is posted elsewhere.
I've heard (and read) that a lot of vintage tourneys (perhaps all of them?) allow players to use proxies, either because some cards are too hard to get or because players would rather not bend/scratch power cards. Anyway, is this true?
If so, how many can you have per deck? I'm sure there has to be a limit; it'd be kinda stupid if I was allowed to show up to a tourney with 60 proxies and play. Also, do you print your own proxies, sharpie on a common/land or something, or does the judge provide them at the event?
Also, if the proxy thing is true, does playing vintage eventually end up cheaper than T2 in the long run? It would seem like it, but I've never really played T2 except for fun FNM tourneys.
I tried searching for the answer, but couldn't find exactly what I was looking for. Forgive me if this is posted elsewhere.
I've heard (and read) that a lot of vintage tourneys (perhaps all of them?) allow players to use proxies, either because some cards are too hard to get or because players would rather not bend/scratch power cards. Anyway, is this true?
Sanctioned tournaments cannot allow proxies due to DCI tournament rules. Many non-sanctioned tournaments allow proxies.
If so, how many can you have per deck? I'm sure there has to be a limit; it'd be kinda stupid if I was allowed to show up to a tourney with 60 proxies and play. Also, do you print your own proxies, sharpie on a common/land or something, or does the judge provide them at the event?
Since this is only allowed in non-sanctioned tournaments, all of these choices are solely at the discretion of the organizer of each tournament. Some allow a limited number, some don't. Some have specific rules on how the proxies should be made, some don't.
Also, if the proxy thing is true, does playing vintage eventually end up cheaper than T2 in the long run? It would seem like it, but I've never really played T2 except for fun FNM tourneys.
I think there are enough other threads on this question in the Vintage forum that it doesn't need to be discussed here.
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Most tournaments are 10-15 proxies, at some of them you can pay a higher entry fee to use more. Sanctioned tournaments don't allow any proxies, but there is maybe 1 major sanctioned tournament per year.
You can just Sharpie the names on a land, erase the applicable parts of a real card (one that shares the casting cost, card type and/or P/T of the card you want to proxy) and make it into the one you want, etc.
Yes, Vintage is cheaper in the long run, it's just a matter of the staple cards being good forever and not rotating. There will generally be a much higher initial investment required though.
Wow, 25 proxies? Where are those at? How big are the turnouts? What's the entry fee and prize structure for those like? I'm really curious.
Most go by the $20 10-15 proxies. Some do the 25-25-25 which is $25-25 proxies-$0.25 for each additional proxy beyond the 25 limit. But some of the others that are 10-15 also do a price for added proxies past the limit.
I think proxies are bad for tourneys. I also think that tourneys who allow proxies are bad. If you wanna make proxies to run ideas with your friends that fine. But I think that any event held at any store that sells cards should not allow them. If you dont have the $$ for the real cards, play Type II.
I think proxies are bad for tourneys. I also think that tourneys who allow proxies are bad. If you wanna make proxies to run ideas with your friends that fine. But I think that any event held at any store that sells cards should not allow them. If you dont have the $$ for the real cards, play Type II.
Even though I feel the same way, Proxies are a necessary evil. If you sit accross from someone who is fully powered, and you have a budget deck, there is a definite advantage to the fully powered individual. Also, if we implemented this practice, we would speeden the destruction of this beloved format. Currently, there are only a few hundred people in the US who play this format competitively. We rely on proxy tournaments to generate interest in this format.
However, I find myself slightly disappointed when I am in the top 8 at a Vintage tourney and my first match or two are with people who have "Black Lotus" scribbled illegibly on the back of shockland.
I didn't really think about it that way. Yeah, I guess you gotta do what you gotta do to keep it alive.
Even worse though... people playing vintage with proxy FoWs or duals. I think, jeez its 20 bucks man...really? If your gonna do it, do it. If not, don't.
back when I had power I used my proxy count for sideboard cards. I know they are cheap to acquire but the sideboard is never the same between tourneys and so I didn't want to use too much time and $$ buying/trading for "mere" sideboard cards.
Even having a set of power and most of the other stuff sometimes I will just proxy a card i can't find or don't feel like buying for a local vintage tournament. I mean I guess they are necessary due to the fact the allow other people to compete who do not have the necessary cards or money to acquire power
As someone who's just getting into vintage, the initial investment is pretty off-putting. Sure, I've picked up the Vault and FoWs, and I'm considering the Underground Seas/Mana Drains, but when I look at $3500 for Jewelery as compare that to my moving out savings, it's a matter of priority. I'd love to play Vintage formats, but when the current players sniff at proxies like those using them are to be looked down on, it makes them seem like a bunch of elitist snobs. Ultimately the format needs new blood to stay alive and proxies seem like a good way of doing just that.
proxy are nessasary to keep the foramt going at all. if not, new player would have to spend like $5000 to be competative at all. that basically, the P9, and some other staples. most people don't really have that money to throw into a new format for a card game.
personally, i couldn't start vintage without proxies. i just dont have the money to get mox lotus or some staples at the bigining.
without new players, old players would grow bored of no new people,and the format would die
Currently Taking altered art Comissions. www.nf96alters.webs.com
Quick and Cheap Alters (looking to fill up some slots so some special pricing currently)
JK. They are needed. Ideally, I would like to see 20, 10, and 5 proxy events, in addition to champs. That way, people can still play vintage without having to buy Drains/Underground Seas (up to $65 a pop right now)/Bazaars/Workshops, and it encourages people to buy those cards, as well as moxen, loti, etc. It also ecourages people to keep thier winnings from tournaments, and not immediatly sell it back to the dealer
I say allow proxies, around 5-10. But in the end i'm for anything that gets vintage running again so i can use my moxes.
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There is an excellent article about this very question by Steve Menendian. I cannot locate it, but you have a couple of things to think about.
The amount of proxies in the tournament really affects which decks are played.
If you allow unlimited proxies, more people will play, but people will shy away from decks like fish which are considerably cheaper to build than decks like Oath and TPS. However, it does not require people to invest in the format.
10 Proxies:
People will not have to own power, but will have to own things like dual lands. You will see some decks fully powered, but you will still need cards like duals and grim tutor to play TPS. Will also shift the meta, but not by much.
5 Proxy:
This is force people to own power, or try budget alternatives. Though I think this is where I would like most people to be able to play (and keep the format healthy) it creates a larger barrier to entry than the previous options.
No proxy - sanctioned.
Self explanatory.
I think the magic number is 5, but to get a decent turnout (especially in a new place) you will have to entice new members and remove the cost barrier to play. I think you should try what my shop does and then adjust accordingly in subsequent months:
They do the 25-25-25 rule.
25$ entry
25 proxies
25c per proxy beyond the 25th card.
It is a great way to get people interested in the format, and doesn't quite break the bank.
Eventually, I think you may want to decrease this number to 20, 15, and so on as people pick up the cards to be able to play.
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As someone who's just getting into vintage, the initial investment is pretty off-putting. Sure, I've picked up the Vault and FoWs, and I'm considering the Underground Seas/Mana Drains, but when I look at $3500 for Jewelery as compare that to my moving out savings, it's a matter of priority. I'd love to play Vintage formats, but when the current players sniff at proxies like those using them are to be looked down on, it makes them seem like a bunch of elitist snobs. Ultimately the format needs new blood to stay alive and proxies seem like a good way of doing just that.
This is the most under appreciated concept in this entire debate on forums, at tournaments, etc.
How do you get a new player interested in the format without allowing proxies? It cannot be expected for a new player to go drop several thousand dollars just to test the waters of vintage, that is absurd.
Even though I feel the same way, Proxies are a necessary evil. If you sit accross from someone who is fully powered, and you have a budget deck, there is a definite advantage to the fully powered individual. Also, if we implemented this practice, we would speeden the destruction of this beloved format. Currently, there are only a few hundred people in the US who play this format competitively. We rely on proxy tournaments to generate interest in this format.
However, I find myself slightly disappointed when I am in the top 8 at a Vintage tourney and my first match or two are with people who have "Black Lotus" scribbled illegibly on the back of shockland.
So what? Why does this disappoint you? Does it make them less of a player? Maybe they are working on getting the money to buy the power that they proxy. Maybe they simply can't afford it. Does this mean that they care less about the format than you? I just don't get this argument. When a player needs to proxy power, it implies nothing about their interest and dedication with the format without more information.
There is an excellent article about this very question by Steve Menendian. I cannot locate it, but you have a couple of things to think about.
The amount of proxies in the tournament really affects which decks are played.
If you allow unlimited proxies, more people will play, but people will shy away from decks like fish which are considerably cheaper to build than decks like Oath and TPS. However, it does not require people to invest in the format.
10 Proxies:
People will not have to own power, but will have to own things like dual lands. You will see some decks fully powered, but you will still need cards like duals and grim tutor to play TPS. Will also shift the meta, but not by much.
5 Proxy:
This is force people to own power, or try budget alternatives. Though I think this is where I would like most people to be able to play (and keep the format healthy) it creates a larger barrier to entry than the previous options.
No proxy - sanctioned.
Self explanatory.
I think the magic number is 5, but to get a decent turnout (especially in a new place) you will have to entice new members and remove the cost barrier to play. I think you should try what my shop does and then adjust accordingly in subsequent months:
They do the 25-25-25 rule.
25$ entry
25 proxies
25c per proxy beyond the 25th card.
It is a great way to get people interested in the format, and doesn't quite break the bank.
Eventually, I think you may want to decrease this number to 20, 15, and so on as people pick up the cards to be able to play.
I proxy my Alexandria. My Twister. Will proxy my Sapphire when it shows up. Along with the rest of my p10. Proxy a dual? Die. P10 should have proxys, as I don't need some snot nosed asshat 'checking' to see if my ancestral is real or not.
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Favorite Cards: Serendib Efreet, Mana Drain, Library of Alexandria, Demonic Tutor, Undermine, Mox Sapphire.
Up to 4 Infraction Warnings. The latest was from CorpT. I mentioned that a decklist looks good, and apart from a couple cards that'll be out of Standard in October, the list was solid. I got a warning for THAT! I mean, people have drug references in their signatures, yet I get a week long ban for mentioning SoM in October? Yeah, ok.
I proxy my Alexandria. My Twister. Will proxy my Sapphire when it shows up. Along with the rest of my p10. Proxy a dual? Die. P10 should have proxys, as I don't need some snot nosed asshat 'checking' to see if my ancestral is real or not.
Why would you not play with power if you have it?
And who cares if people want to look at it?
I have never been called out for anything of the sort when I play my power. More often than not they just ask if it's real, I say yes, and that's the end of it.
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:symu::symb::symr: Remora Control
I wouldn't play with them because I'm incredibly anal about my expensive 'geek things'. I'd have them beside my deck in a hard sleeve, and put it on top of the proxy when I play it from my hand.
I understand it's stupid, and odd, and dumb, and I should sleeve my Alexandria with my Undermines, same as all of them, but I'm a strange dude.
*shrugs*
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Favorite Cards: Serendib Efreet, Mana Drain, Library of Alexandria, Demonic Tutor, Undermine, Mox Sapphire.
Up to 4 Infraction Warnings. The latest was from CorpT. I mentioned that a decklist looks good, and apart from a couple cards that'll be out of Standard in October, the list was solid. I got a warning for THAT! I mean, people have drug references in their signatures, yet I get a week long ban for mentioning SoM in October? Yeah, ok.
However, I find myself slightly disappointed when I am in the top 8 at a Vintage tourney and my first match or two are with people who have "Black Lotus" scribbled illegibly on the back of shockland.
where it occurs, probably has more to do with the lack of care taken with the proxy than with the fact it is a proxy. That is to say, I can totally understand how someone who sunk a cool grand into a Magic card might be annoyed with someone who scribbled on a card with a sharpie right before sleeving up.
Do you have the same reaction, Brian, when seeing a well-made proxy that is hard to distinguish from the real thing? Or my doodle proxies which, while perhaps a small step up from the sharpie-on-a-basic-land, at least show I put some thought and time into creating something interesting to look at?
If I'm at a Vintage Tourney and someone has a Camel with Black Lotus scrawled on it, and there's no physical Lotus they own at the Tourney? Then yeah I have a problem with that.
If they have their Power in Hard Sleeves and throw them over a Proxy when the Proxy is played? Fine with me. I've seen some real dumb players shuffle someone elses power deck, and they cards (especially the top parts) get scraped.
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Favorite Cards: Serendib Efreet, Mana Drain, Library of Alexandria, Demonic Tutor, Undermine, Mox Sapphire.
Up to 4 Infraction Warnings. The latest was from CorpT. I mentioned that a decklist looks good, and apart from a couple cards that'll be out of Standard in October, the list was solid. I got a warning for THAT! I mean, people have drug references in their signatures, yet I get a week long ban for mentioning SoM in October? Yeah, ok.
If I'm at a Vintage Tourney and someone has a Camel with Black Lotus scrawled on it, and there's no physical Lotus they own at the Tourney? Then yeah I have a problem with that.
If they have their Power in Hard Sleeves and throw them over a Proxy when the Proxy is played? Fine with me. I've seen some real dumb players shuffle someone elses power deck, and they cards (especially the top parts) get scraped.
Proxies refer to substitutes for cards that you do not have to own.
This makes it easier for players to enter the format without having to invest a lot of many up front.
As for the shuffling bit, have you tried doublesleeving?
Use a KMC perfectfit over the top of your card.
Then place the card in a dragonshield/KMC sleeve from the bottom-up.
The card is then fully protected, top, bottom, and doubly so on the sides.
I have heard of players going so far as triplesleeving them (they have a third layer they sell that I am not a fan of) or playing in toploaders (which I think is just overkill).
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Currently Playing: Type I:
:symu::symb::symr: Remora Control
I have to disagree with that version of 'Proxy' (not that anyone gives a ♦♦♦♦).
But that's old-school thinking from when I played. If you wanted to use the good cards, then you had to own the good cards. Damn technology and their fancy printers. Abyssmal.
The point of 'but then everyone can't enjoy Vintage Tourney's!' is moot compared to 'So I didn't have to blow a few thousand on the good cards then, and I could have gotten a good printer at Staples and off I go?'.
Thanks for clearing up the current Version of Proxy.
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Favorite Cards: Serendib Efreet, Mana Drain, Library of Alexandria, Demonic Tutor, Undermine, Mox Sapphire.
Up to 4 Infraction Warnings. The latest was from CorpT. I mentioned that a decklist looks good, and apart from a couple cards that'll be out of Standard in October, the list was solid. I got a warning for THAT! I mean, people have drug references in their signatures, yet I get a week long ban for mentioning SoM in October? Yeah, ok.
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I've heard (and read) that a lot of vintage tourneys (perhaps all of them?) allow players to use proxies, either because some cards are too hard to get or because players would rather not bend/scratch power cards. Anyway, is this true?
If so, how many can you have per deck? I'm sure there has to be a limit; it'd be kinda stupid if I was allowed to show up to a tourney with 60 proxies and play. Also, do you print your own proxies, sharpie on a common/land or something, or does the judge provide them at the event?
Also, if the proxy thing is true, does playing vintage eventually end up cheaper than T2 in the long run? It would seem like it, but I've never really played T2 except for fun FNM tourneys.
Your help, as always, much appreciated.
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Sanctioned tournaments cannot allow proxies due to DCI tournament rules. Many non-sanctioned tournaments allow proxies.
Since this is only allowed in non-sanctioned tournaments, all of these choices are solely at the discretion of the organizer of each tournament. Some allow a limited number, some don't. Some have specific rules on how the proxies should be made, some don't.
I think there are enough other threads on this question in the Vintage forum that it doesn't need to be discussed here.
You can just Sharpie the names on a land, erase the applicable parts of a real card (one that shares the casting cost, card type and/or P/T of the card you want to proxy) and make it into the one you want, etc.
Yes, Vintage is cheaper in the long run, it's just a matter of the staple cards being good forever and not rotating. There will generally be a much higher initial investment required though.
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
Wow, 25 proxies? Where are those at? How big are the turnouts? What's the entry fee and prize structure for those like? I'm really curious.
Most go by the $20 10-15 proxies. Some do the 25-25-25 which is $25-25 proxies-$0.25 for each additional proxy beyond the 25 limit. But some of the others that are 10-15 also do a price for added proxies past the limit.
Take a look here to see if there are any in your area: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?board=45.0
Some proxy rules/ideas:
http://forums.starcitygames.com/viewtopic.php?t=291560
http://forums.starcitygames.com/viewtopic.php?t=293409&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc However this thread turns from a proxy thread into an altered art/card thread. So only the first so many pages are relevant.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
My Sale Thread
Even though I feel the same way, Proxies are a necessary evil. If you sit accross from someone who is fully powered, and you have a budget deck, there is a definite advantage to the fully powered individual. Also, if we implemented this practice, we would speeden the destruction of this beloved format. Currently, there are only a few hundred people in the US who play this format competitively. We rely on proxy tournaments to generate interest in this format.
However, I find myself slightly disappointed when I am in the top 8 at a Vintage tourney and my first match or two are with people who have "Black Lotus" scribbled illegibly on the back of shockland.
Even worse though... people playing vintage with proxy FoWs or duals. I think, jeez its 20 bucks man...really? If your gonna do it, do it. If not, don't.
Maybe I'll cya out there someday
My Sale Thread
personally, i couldn't start vintage without proxies. i just dont have the money to get mox lotus or some staples at the bigining.
without new players, old players would grow bored of no new people,and the format would die
Currently Taking altered art Comissions. www.nf96alters.webs.com
Quick and Cheap Alters (looking to fill up some slots so some special pricing currently)
Ebay Stuff
JK. They are needed. Ideally, I would like to see 20, 10, and 5 proxy events, in addition to champs. That way, people can still play vintage without having to buy Drains/Underground Seas (up to $65 a pop right now)/Bazaars/Workshops, and it encourages people to buy those cards, as well as moxen, loti, etc. It also ecourages people to keep thier winnings from tournaments, and not immediatly sell it back to the dealer
Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
---------------------------------------------------
Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
The amount of proxies in the tournament really affects which decks are played.
If you allow unlimited proxies, more people will play, but people will shy away from decks like fish which are considerably cheaper to build than decks like Oath and TPS. However, it does not require people to invest in the format.
10 Proxies:
People will not have to own power, but will have to own things like dual lands. You will see some decks fully powered, but you will still need cards like duals and grim tutor to play TPS. Will also shift the meta, but not by much.
5 Proxy:
This is force people to own power, or try budget alternatives. Though I think this is where I would like most people to be able to play (and keep the format healthy) it creates a larger barrier to entry than the previous options.
No proxy - sanctioned.
Self explanatory.
I think the magic number is 5, but to get a decent turnout (especially in a new place) you will have to entice new members and remove the cost barrier to play. I think you should try what my shop does and then adjust accordingly in subsequent months:
They do the 25-25-25 rule.
25$ entry
25 proxies
25c per proxy beyond the 25th card.
It is a great way to get people interested in the format, and doesn't quite break the bank.
Eventually, I think you may want to decrease this number to 20, 15, and so on as people pick up the cards to be able to play.
Type I:
:symu::symb::symr: Remora Control
Type 1.5
:symw::symu::symg: NO CounterTop
Type II:
Standard is AIDS
This is the most under appreciated concept in this entire debate on forums, at tournaments, etc.
How do you get a new player interested in the format without allowing proxies? It cannot be expected for a new player to go drop several thousand dollars just to test the waters of vintage, that is absurd.
So what? Why does this disappoint you? Does it make them less of a player? Maybe they are working on getting the money to buy the power that they proxy. Maybe they simply can't afford it. Does this mean that they care less about the format than you? I just don't get this argument. When a player needs to proxy power, it implies nothing about their interest and dedication with the format without more information.
Enough said.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10498534#post10498534
Up to 4 Infraction Warnings. The latest was from CorpT. I mentioned that a decklist looks good, and apart from a couple cards that'll be out of Standard in October, the list was solid. I got a warning for THAT! I mean, people have drug references in their signatures, yet I get a week long ban for mentioning SoM in October? Yeah, ok.
Why would you not play with power if you have it?
And who cares if people want to look at it?
I have never been called out for anything of the sort when I play my power. More often than not they just ask if it's real, I say yes, and that's the end of it.
Type I:
:symu::symb::symr: Remora Control
Type 1.5
:symw::symu::symg: NO CounterTop
Type II:
Standard is AIDS
I understand it's stupid, and odd, and dumb, and I should sleeve my Alexandria with my Undermines, same as all of them, but I'm a strange dude.
*shrugs*
Up to 4 Infraction Warnings. The latest was from CorpT. I mentioned that a decklist looks good, and apart from a couple cards that'll be out of Standard in October, the list was solid. I got a warning for THAT! I mean, people have drug references in their signatures, yet I get a week long ban for mentioning SoM in October? Yeah, ok.
I'm thinking that this sentiment,
where it occurs, probably has more to do with the lack of care taken with the proxy than with the fact it is a proxy. That is to say, I can totally understand how someone who sunk a cool grand into a Magic card might be annoyed with someone who scribbled on a card with a sharpie right before sleeving up.
Do you have the same reaction, Brian, when seeing a well-made proxy that is hard to distinguish from the real thing? Or my doodle proxies which, while perhaps a small step up from the sharpie-on-a-basic-land, at least show I put some thought and time into creating something interesting to look at?
If I'm at a Vintage Tourney and someone has a Camel with Black Lotus scrawled on it, and there's no physical Lotus they own at the Tourney? Then yeah I have a problem with that.
If they have their Power in Hard Sleeves and throw them over a Proxy when the Proxy is played? Fine with me. I've seen some real dumb players shuffle someone elses power deck, and they cards (especially the top parts) get scraped.
Up to 4 Infraction Warnings. The latest was from CorpT. I mentioned that a decklist looks good, and apart from a couple cards that'll be out of Standard in October, the list was solid. I got a warning for THAT! I mean, people have drug references in their signatures, yet I get a week long ban for mentioning SoM in October? Yeah, ok.
Proxies refer to substitutes for cards that you do not have to own.
This makes it easier for players to enter the format without having to invest a lot of many up front.
As for the shuffling bit, have you tried doublesleeving?
Use a KMC perfectfit over the top of your card.
Then place the card in a dragonshield/KMC sleeve from the bottom-up.
The card is then fully protected, top, bottom, and doubly so on the sides.
I have heard of players going so far as triplesleeving them (they have a third layer they sell that I am not a fan of) or playing in toploaders (which I think is just overkill).
Type I:
:symu::symb::symr: Remora Control
Type 1.5
:symw::symu::symg: NO CounterTop
Type II:
Standard is AIDS
But that's old-school thinking from when I played. If you wanted to use the good cards, then you had to own the good cards. Damn technology and their fancy printers. Abyssmal.
The point of 'but then everyone can't enjoy Vintage Tourney's!' is moot compared to 'So I didn't have to blow a few thousand on the good cards then, and I could have gotten a good printer at Staples and off I go?'.
Thanks for clearing up the current Version of Proxy.
Up to 4 Infraction Warnings. The latest was from CorpT. I mentioned that a decklist looks good, and apart from a couple cards that'll be out of Standard in October, the list was solid. I got a warning for THAT! I mean, people have drug references in their signatures, yet I get a week long ban for mentioning SoM in October? Yeah, ok.