In some cases. But unless you're trying to show off, I would proxy. Not worth the chance of them getting devalued.
Wasn't there a way to peel off the foil part of old cards and stick it on your P9? I thought there was something like that going on...Does it damage the cards at all?
I only have a few pieces of unlimited power and sometimes I will proxy it and other times I won't. While on the one hand it is cool to run the real thing, it 1) can get slightly damaged, 2) could get stolen, and 3) doesn't give much of an advantage, if any, if you can just run a proxy instead. So, yeah, I'll do it sometimes, assuming I have enough "unused" proxies to spare. Although, of late I have found myself close to the proxy limit and having to use my really high end cards...just because I don't have some recent $5 rares.
Hmm, I haven't entertain proxying cards I have yet, I just might do that.
Btw, how do cards usually get damaged during game play? I mean if you don't shuffle like poker generally their condition should not be affected, right?
Hmm, I haven't entertain proxying cards I have yet, I just might do that.
Btw, how do cards usually get damaged during game play? I mean if you don't shuffle like poker generally their condition should not be affected, right?
Well, I mean, my UL Mox Emerald is in pristine condition, but I still play it. I'm sure I've gotten a little white mark here or there from taking it out of its hard sleeve. It actually pains me a little bit to play it. But, that's kind of the point of winning the high end cards--so you can play with them.
I have some perfect condition betas and after the prices went nuts I decided to hunt down some unlimiteds in really crappy condition. I use those so I can proxy whatever else I might not have. It didn't cost much for the moxen, though the lotus cost me a bit in trade to get. 10 dual lands weren't real bad though.
That way I can rifle shuffle or whatever and not care. It's not like it's going to hurt those any worse. One looks like it went through a washer at one time or another. I still use sleeves, but at least I am not going to hurt the condition any more than it already is.
I do have a set of collectors editions also for when I want to play with a good looking deck all black bordered though those are starting to get up there in price for some reason also.
Like already mentioned, the best thing is to use top loaders. There is no real rule that says you can't, and any judge worth his status would be against that.
PS. BTW there is never a Proxy limit, if you own the cards that you are Proxying. As long as you have the real cards with you, the judges have to allow it(make sure to brings the real cards along with you, to show the judges you own the cards).
I'm making the fabled Ali from Cairo deck, which hasn't seen the light of day since 1994-late 1995(It's not exactly the most competetive type 1 deck (especially in this day,and age with all the global damage spells), but It's a thing of beauty. I have cards that are a myth, these should not exist(like a Gem Mint signed Ali from Cairo, It's my baby. Just Gem Mint Ali from Cairo cards are almost unheard of, neved mind a signed one in that condition).
Now a PSA Gem Mint Ali from Cairo sold for over $400 a few years back (and this was on ebay, so you know It's worth alot more on the open market), so book value on a signed one in the same condition would be atleast $1,000"book", if such a thing could ever have a price (lol in nm condition, It's only an $80 card, $40 on ebay, Gem Mint, it surpasses the value of most of the P9 cards, Gem Mint signed, move aside Beta Black Lotus). Therefore I would love to see a judge even try to say, I can't use top loaders(not to mention I have other nice cads, like mint signed beta P9 cards).
Who am I kidding lol, I can't play with that. I'm gonna pick up another Ali From Cairo(they aren't really expensive anyway) to play with, but still, I would be using Beta P9, so top loaders are a must.
There is no real rule that says you can't, and any judge worth his status would be against that.
It's up to the judge's discretion whether or not to permit toploaders. The relevant issue is, "is your opponent able to sufficiently randomize your deck within a reasonable time constraint?" If the judge deems that the toploaders impede this, they can (and often do) order the player to change the deck to regular sleeves.
PS. BTW there is never a Proxy limit, if you own the cards that you are Proxying. As long as you have the real cards with you, the judges have to allow it(make sure to brings the real cards along with you, to show the judges you own the cards).
This is false.
Most non-sanctioned events in North America permit up to 10 proxies. Sanctioned events, however, only permit proxies in 2 circumstances:
The card became damaged during the tournament, and is now recognizable (in constructed events); or
The card was already damaged to a recognizable extent when it came out of the pack (in limited events)
You are most definitely not permitted to proxy your cards in sanctioned events, just because you want to protect them.
Small nitpick: A card cannot be "Gem Mint" if it is signed. Gem Mint means it is in pristine, straight-outta-the-pack condition, without any damage at all, including being defaced with a sharpie.
Now a PSA Gem Mint Ali from Cairo sold for over $400 a few years back, so book value on a signed one in the same condition would be at least $1,000
I have no idea where you're pulling these numbers from, but signed cards are often worth less than unsigned versions in the same condition. Furthermore, the condition can affect the price variance, too. For example, if a card is already beat-up, getting it signed can make it worth a little more. However, taking a pristine, perfect card and getting it scribbled on can ruin it in the eyes of many collectors, and lower its value.
Personally, I detest signed cards. I think taking a pristine condition, iconic card and getting it signed ruins it. It breaks my heart to think that there are fewer and fewer truly "mint" Beta rares out there, as people get the cards signed. I treasure a nice, clean, mint condition card far far more than a signed version. You can always find signed versions somewhere, but the unsigned ones in perfect condition are truly rare and valuable, in my eyes.
Therefore I would love to see a judge even try to say, I can't use top loaders.
Many judges would, and rightfully so. It's great that you love your cards and want to protect them, but if you're so paranoid about even the slightest damage to them that you insist on sleeving your entire deck in toploaders, then you're probably not really at the tournament to win. You just want to show off your cards. And that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that, that's an important part of the game. But tournaments are about competitive play, not just showing off blingy pimpness. When it comes to playing the tournament, use versions of your card that you're comfortable sleeving in normal sleeves, and keep your treasured cards safely tucked away in a binder or something.
Competitive tournaments are not a "show-and-tell." Nobody wants to slow the game down and admire each card you play. Your opponent is sitting across from you with the reasonable expectation of playing a competitive match, not to oooh and aaaah over your cards. After the match is the time for admiring the jewels in each others' collections.
To everyone reading this: Please don't use toploaders in tournaments. It's really friggin' annoying.
It's up to the judge's discretion whether or not to permit toploaders. The relevant issue is, "is your opponent able to sufficiently randomize your deck within a reasonable time constraint?" If the judge deems that the toploaders impede this, they can (and often do) order the player to change the deck to regular sleeves.
This is false.
Most non-sanctioned events in North America permit up to 10 proxies. Sanctioned events, however, only permit proxies in 2 circumstances:
The card became damaged during the tournament, and is now recognizable (in constructed events); or
The card was already damaged to a recognizable extent when it came out of the pack (in limited events)
You are most definitely not permitted to proxy your cards in sanctioned events, just because you want to protect them.
Small nitpick: A card cannot be "Gem Mint" if it is signed. Gem Mint means it is in pristine, straight-outta-the-pack condition, without any damage at all, including being defaced with a sharpie.
I have no idea where you're pulling these numbers from, but signed cards are often worth less than unsigned versions in the same condition. Furthermore, the condition can affect the price variance, too. For example, if a card is already beat-up, getting it signed can make it worth a little more. However, taking a pristine, perfect card and getting it scribbled on can ruin it in the eyes of many collectors, and lower its value.
Personally, I detest signed cards. I think taking a pristine condition, iconic card and getting it signed ruins it. It breaks my heart to think that there are fewer and fewer truly "mint" Beta rares out there, as people get the cards signed. I treasure a nice, clean, mint condition card far far more than a signed version. You can always find signed versions somewhere, but the unsigned ones in perfect condition are truly rare and valuable, in my eyes.
Many judges would, and rightfully so. It's great that you love your cards and want to protect them, but if you're so paranoid about even the slightest damage to them that you insist on sleeving your entire deck in toploaders, then you're probably not really at the tournament to win. You just want to show off your cards. And that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that, that's an important part of the game. But tournaments are about competitive play, not just showing off blingy pimpness. When it comes to playing the tournament, use versions of your card that you're comfortable sleeving in normal sleeves, and keep your treasured cards safely tucked away in a binder or something.
Competitive tournaments are not a "show-and-tell." Nobody wants to slow the game down and admire each card you play. Your opponent is sitting across from you with the reasonable expectation of playing a competitive match, not to oooh and aaaah over your cards. After the match is the time for admiring the jewels in each others' collections.
To everyone reading this: Please don't use toploaders in tournaments. It's really friggin' annoying.
@ the nitpicking statement: You knew it your self, you are talking semantics here. Yes, I know, however an artist's signature doesn't count as damage, and in almost every case, actually increases the value(exception are, if signed in bad spots, like on the picture or sideways). Some people like non signed cards better, but either way, signed cards are a lot rarer then non signed cards. Just becuase PSA wont grade signed non'sport cards, doesn't mean it counts as damage(besides PSA is a sport grading organization, and really doesn't know anything about non'sport cards, thus they wouldn't beable to tell between a real signature, or a forgery).
That's weird, becuase I was permited to proxy out cards I owed(had there) so I could still play the deck, without worrying about damaging certain cards(which weren't counted towards the proxy limit, which I don't proxy cards I don't have anyway, but that's besides the point). The Judge came over, made sure I actually had the cards, and okayed it.
That 10 Proxy rule in tournies, is relatively new, and is the worse thing that has ever happened to tournaments, as it allows people to proxy any 10 cards, (could've sworn it used to be six), even if they don't own the real cards (unless they changed that). That rule pretty much destroys tourny play.
Where am I pulling these numbers from, how about auctions, the open market, and stores. Your claim that in most cases signatures lower the values, are false. Just becuase price guides don't have a listing for signed cards, doesn't mean they lower the prices or that signatures have no value(well artist signatures anyway, Richard Garfield signed cards, although super rare, lower the value of the card almost 100% of the time).
Just becuase I have P9 in my deck, doesn't mean I'm running a show, and tell thing, and anyone with such cards, will do whatever they need to, to protect the cards. Just becuase they have a practical use, doesn't mean I shouldn't care about the condition, MTG is a CCG after all. Also ijust for argumental sake, It's not much slower to shuffle toploaders, then it is to shuffle regular sleeves(5-10 seconds slower tops, It's hardly a tourny stopper lol).
Annoying? Well, don't worry, I don't let players shuffle or even take my deck to look through it anymore(well without a judge watching from that side, anyway). I have to have a judge shuffle, and I need someone to watch my oponant go through me deck(I had a Black Lotus, Time Twister, and Mirror of Universe stolen from me, at different times, 2 of which were at tournies, until you had a Black Lotus stolen from you, you will never understand).
PS. Since then I replaced the Time Twister with a better version, and the mirror, but still haven't been able to get a new Black Lotus sigh(and this was 10 years ago), and It helped me get runner up in a 500 man tourny sigh.
That 10 Proxy rule in tournies, is relatively new, and is the worse thing that has ever happened to tournaments, as it allows people to proxy any 10 cards, (could've sworn it used to be six), even if they don't own the real cards (unless they changed that). That rule pretty much destroys tourny play.
Yes, just imagine how popular Vintage could've been today if it weren't for those non-sanctioned, proxy tournaments out there killing the format. [/sarcasm]
Annoying? Well, don't wory, I don't let players shuffle or even take my deck to look through it anymore(well without a judge watching from that side, anyway). I have to have a judge shuffle, and I need someone to watch my oponant go through me deck
Wow. No offense, but you would be super-annoying to get paired against in an event. All-toploader deck, requiring the judge to shuffle your deck every time you pop a fetchland, refusing to let me handle your deck if I Extirpate you... just wow. Thankfully, it sounds like you haven't attended an actual Vintage tournament in a long time.
To get back on the issue of jackasses damaging cards on purpose, last time I attended an extended tournament (I played Doran, a more or less $1000 deck) I had a round with a guy playing mono red burn. The guy violently shuffled my deck (like... real violent) so I reminded him we were not playing poker, asked him to pay attention not to damage my cards, and recommanded that he pile shuffled like I was doing.
His response: "Pile shuffling is for gays."
I: "Give me my deck back right now"
Him: "(f-word) you."
So I called the judge, reported his behaviour, got him a warning and the guy pile shuffled.
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The interesting thing about us legacy players is that we consider Force of Will, Dark Ritual, Blood Moon, Tarmogoyf and Swords to Plowshare to be fair.
Yeah, I might concede the round if I was playing you just because playing against that deck sounds like the biggest hassle.
The part of using toploaders is completely legit,and reasonable(people that say It's a hasle, are full of them selves).
However I might be strict with my better cards, but trust me, having a Black Lotus(that you saved up a lot of money for), and a Timetwister stolen from you, is not fun at all, infact it would probally be enough to make most people quit MTG all together.
Wait, I thought top loaders are prohibited from sanctioned play? Don't you need a set of completely opaque and unmarked sleeves to play? Particularly if you have Alpha cards in the deck?
As for unsanctioned tournaments, it all comes down to the TO and the judges. I've seen nice TOs that will let you proxy your own cards without charging you the $2 for a proxy or count it in the 10 proxy limit because you have the cards in a binder with you and don't want it scratched up. I've also seen other TOs that would just say "too bad", if you don't like it, don't play at our store (these are also the ones that are not hesitant to kick out a player for being a dumbass).
Also, I don't need to be full of myself to hate shuffling with toploaders. I don't have massive hands like an ogre, and you need to pile shuffle for a long ass time to "sufficiently" randomize a deck in toploaders. Given 50 minutes rounds, I would probably concede as well and grab some food instead of sitting through that process. Also, if you travel alot to tournaments, where you meet different TOs and judges, they might not be receptive of one guy that refuses to change his sleeving and kick you out because everyone else is complaining.
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My understanding is that toploaders are banned from sanctioned play. Unfortunately, I don't have an authority, so you'll just have to take my gut instinct for what it's worth.
Of course, in unsanctioned, anything goes. An opponent of mine at a SCG tournament had toploaders and nobody said anything, although that was 3 years ago.
trust me, having a Black Lotus(that you saved up a lot of money for), and a Timetwister stolen from you, is not fun at all
That's the second time you've brought that up. What makes you think you're the only person who's ever had Magic cards stolen from them?
You don't need to play in toploaders to prevent having a card stolen. And you don't need to "forbid" your opponents from touching your deck to prevent having a card stolen. They're right there in front of you. Just watch them!
That's the second time you've brought that up. What makes you think you're the only person who's ever had Magic cards stolen from them?
You don't need to play in toploaders to prevent having a card stolen. And you don't need to "forbid" your opponents from touching your deck to prevent having a card stolen. They're right there in front of you. Just watch them!
No, you misunderstood, the Toploaders is to protect the cards from damage($800+ for a card, is not pocket change). The other part is(with having a judge near, when someone is looking through a deck, which is for stopping thieves). Keep in mind, that a Black Lotus costs so much, that even a little damage can drop the value of it by a hundred.
It is so easy for someone to steal cards from you at an actual tourny(opposed to just playing for fun at a card shop, it Isn't funny).
the Toploaders is to protect the cards from damage($800+ for a card, is not pocket change).
Yes, I know. I have a Black Lotus too (and an Ancestral Recall, and several Moxes, and...). You're not the only person with valuable cards. We get it. However, we're not talking about a card losing $800 worth of value. If you play your Black Lotus in Dragon Shields, it's not suddenly going to go from $800 to $0. If you're really abusive with it, it might lose some value, say $50 or so. So what? It could just as easily go up in value anyway, due to the game becoming more popular. If you're really that super-paranoid about it, then why are you playing with it at all?
My point is that I think you're being selfish. Maybe it's just me, but it sounds to me like you're determined to play in organized events so people can see your cards and give them the proper "Oooo"-ing and "Aaaaa"-ing you think you're due, and you don't care that it's making it harder and more cumbersome for your opponetns to carry out the match with you. Surely you realize that lots of people have those cards, and it's not a big deal. You're not going to get people drooling and fawning over your deck just because you have a mint Black Lotus. It's Vintage. Join the club.
The other part is(with having a judge near, when someone is looking through a deck, which is for stopping thieves).
As I said, just watch them. I really don't see how this is an issue. If you're playing a match, and you hand your deck to your opponent to give it a quick shuffle before the match, how in the world are they supposed to be able to look through your deck, find a Lotus, and sneak it off the table without you noticing? Let's be realistic here. It's not a real concern.
I totally agree with kombat here: Do you really think that if everyone was paranoid that everyone else was out to get them, people would show up to tournaments?
Do you really think that they are going to assign a judge to each player to make sure everything goes alright and no cards are damaged at all?
Oh no! What would happen if the judge you used to make sure nobody touched your cards, I don't know, happened to steal those cards!? MADNESS!
We had a guy like this at a legacy tournament ... he had beta duals and alot of pimped stuff (jap foil brainstorms foil goyfs ... you know the usual stuff) and was super paranoid about it. He was like careful on the cut ... beta duals inside. I just ignored him. Then when I extirpated him he made a judge come watch me to ensure i did not steal his beta goodness. Why buy beta if your just gonna whine? We all have expensive cards. Don't play if your gonna be stupid. No one cares if you have a lotus, anyone could if they wanted to shell out the money.
As a Judge, I would hate to have to stand behind someone all game in order to allow them to sleep comfortably at night. I agree with kombat on basically everything he said.
And as a TO I would not let people use toploaders as it makes shuffling (especially in fetchland heavy eternal formats) a pain in the ass. Why do you even play then?
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Like already mentioned, the best thing is to use top loaders. There is no real rule that says you can't, and any judge worth his status would be against that.
This is incorrect. Such a rule does exist in the DCI Universal Tournament Rules.
Quote from DCI UTR »
35. Card Sleeves
Players may use plastic card sleeves or other protective devices on cards. If a player chooses to use card sleeves, all cards in the player’s current deck must be placed in the sleeves in an identical manner. If the sleeves feature holograms or other similar markings, cards must be inserted into the sleeves so these markings appear only on the face of the cards.
Once a match begins, a player may request that the Judge inspect an opponent’s card sleeves. The Judge may disallow a player’s card sleeves if the Judge believes they are marked, worn, or otherwise in a condition or of a design that interferes with shuffling or game play. To avoid confusion, a card sleeve may also be used to mark a player’s card if the card is in an opponent’s playing area.
If your choice of toploader is interfering with shuffling, the judge may disallow it.
PS. BTW there is never a Proxy limit, if you own the cards that you are Proxying. As long as you have the real cards with you, the judges have to allow it(make sure to brings the real cards along with you, to show the judges you own the cards).
Player-made proxies are never allowed in sanctioned tournaments under any circumstances. If you own a card and don't want to play with it in a sanctioned tournament, then find another card you do want to play.
I have to have a judge shuffle, and I need someone to watch my oponant go through me deck(I had a Black Lotus, Time Twister, and Mirror of Universe stolen from me, at different times, 2 of which were at tournies, until you had a Black Lotus stolen from you, you will never understand).
You can ask a judge to shuffle your deck. The judge is not obligated to fulfill that request. And if the reason you're asking them to shuffle is that you've chosen a card protection method that makes it impossible for you to properly randomize your deck yourself, not only do they have the right to refuse... you'll probably be asked to find new sleeves.
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To get back on the issue of jackasses damaging cards on purpose, last time I attended an extended tournament (I played Doran, a more or less $1000 deck) I had a round with a guy playing mono red burn. The guy violently shuffled my deck (like... real violent) so I reminded him we were not playing poker, asked him to pay attention not to damage my cards, and recommanded that he pile shuffled like I was doing.
His response: "Pile shuffling is for gays."
I: "Give me my deck back right now"
Him: "(f-word) you."
So I called the judge, reported his behaviour, got him a warning and the guy pile shuffled.
That's the reason I stopped playing Magic in 99...Because of people like this one...B*stards!
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I was playing in a tournament and was playing a deck with some decently expensive cards, so I asked my opponent if he wouldn't mind pile shuffling and I would do the same with his cards. He promptly took my cards and started bending them as much as he could just to be a jackass. I told him to stop and when he didn't I promptly took his and threw them out the window behind me. I had the guy sitting next to me and his opponent tell a judge what happened. I was allowed to stay and the other guy was thrown out.
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Wasn't there a way to peel off the foil part of old cards and stick it on your P9? I thought there was something like that going on...Does it damage the cards at all?
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Btw, how do cards usually get damaged during game play? I mean if you don't shuffle like poker generally their condition should not be affected, right?
Well, I mean, my UL Mox Emerald is in pristine condition, but I still play it. I'm sure I've gotten a little white mark here or there from taking it out of its hard sleeve. It actually pains me a little bit to play it. But, that's kind of the point of winning the high end cards--so you can play with them.
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That way I can rifle shuffle or whatever and not care. It's not like it's going to hurt those any worse. One looks like it went through a washer at one time or another. I still use sleeves, but at least I am not going to hurt the condition any more than it already is.
I do have a set of collectors editions also for when I want to play with a good looking deck all black bordered though those are starting to get up there in price for some reason also.
<----Patiently waits for Balance to be legal in Legacy.
PS. BTW there is never a Proxy limit, if you own the cards that you are Proxying. As long as you have the real cards with you, the judges have to allow it(make sure to brings the real cards along with you, to show the judges you own the cards).
I'm making the fabled Ali from Cairo deck, which hasn't seen the light of day since 1994-late 1995(It's not exactly the most competetive type 1 deck (especially in this day,and age with all the global damage spells), but It's a thing of beauty. I have cards that are a myth, these should not exist(like a Gem Mint signed Ali from Cairo, It's my baby. Just Gem Mint Ali from Cairo cards are almost unheard of, neved mind a signed one in that condition).
Now a PSA Gem Mint Ali from Cairo sold for over $400 a few years back (and this was on ebay, so you know It's worth alot more on the open market), so book value on a signed one in the same condition would be atleast $1,000"book", if such a thing could ever have a price (lol in nm condition, It's only an $80 card, $40 on ebay, Gem Mint, it surpasses the value of most of the P9 cards, Gem Mint signed, move aside Beta Black Lotus). Therefore I would love to see a judge even try to say, I can't use top loaders(not to mention I have other nice cads, like mint signed beta P9 cards).
Who am I kidding lol, I can't play with that. I'm gonna pick up another Ali From Cairo(they aren't really expensive anyway) to play with, but still, I would be using Beta P9, so top loaders are a must.
Edit: Hmm, whoops my bad, went on a tangent there
Those are very annoying for your opponents.
It's up to the judge's discretion whether or not to permit toploaders. The relevant issue is, "is your opponent able to sufficiently randomize your deck within a reasonable time constraint?" If the judge deems that the toploaders impede this, they can (and often do) order the player to change the deck to regular sleeves.
This is false.
Most non-sanctioned events in North America permit up to 10 proxies. Sanctioned events, however, only permit proxies in 2 circumstances:
Small nitpick: A card cannot be "Gem Mint" if it is signed. Gem Mint means it is in pristine, straight-outta-the-pack condition, without any damage at all, including being defaced with a sharpie.
I have no idea where you're pulling these numbers from, but signed cards are often worth less than unsigned versions in the same condition. Furthermore, the condition can affect the price variance, too. For example, if a card is already beat-up, getting it signed can make it worth a little more. However, taking a pristine, perfect card and getting it scribbled on can ruin it in the eyes of many collectors, and lower its value.
Personally, I detest signed cards. I think taking a pristine condition, iconic card and getting it signed ruins it. It breaks my heart to think that there are fewer and fewer truly "mint" Beta rares out there, as people get the cards signed. I treasure a nice, clean, mint condition card far far more than a signed version. You can always find signed versions somewhere, but the unsigned ones in perfect condition are truly rare and valuable, in my eyes.
Many judges would, and rightfully so. It's great that you love your cards and want to protect them, but if you're so paranoid about even the slightest damage to them that you insist on sleeving your entire deck in toploaders, then you're probably not really at the tournament to win. You just want to show off your cards. And that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that, that's an important part of the game. But tournaments are about competitive play, not just showing off blingy pimpness. When it comes to playing the tournament, use versions of your card that you're comfortable sleeving in normal sleeves, and keep your treasured cards safely tucked away in a binder or something.
Competitive tournaments are not a "show-and-tell." Nobody wants to slow the game down and admire each card you play. Your opponent is sitting across from you with the reasonable expectation of playing a competitive match, not to oooh and aaaah over your cards. After the match is the time for admiring the jewels in each others' collections.
To everyone reading this: Please don't use toploaders in tournaments. It's really friggin' annoying.
@ the nitpicking statement: You knew it your self, you are talking semantics here. Yes, I know, however an artist's signature doesn't count as damage, and in almost every case, actually increases the value(exception are, if signed in bad spots, like on the picture or sideways). Some people like non signed cards better, but either way, signed cards are a lot rarer then non signed cards. Just becuase PSA wont grade signed non'sport cards, doesn't mean it counts as damage(besides PSA is a sport grading organization, and really doesn't know anything about non'sport cards, thus they wouldn't beable to tell between a real signature, or a forgery).
That's weird, becuase I was permited to proxy out cards I owed(had there) so I could still play the deck, without worrying about damaging certain cards(which weren't counted towards the proxy limit, which I don't proxy cards I don't have anyway, but that's besides the point). The Judge came over, made sure I actually had the cards, and okayed it.
That 10 Proxy rule in tournies, is relatively new, and is the worse thing that has ever happened to tournaments, as it allows people to proxy any 10 cards, (could've sworn it used to be six), even if they don't own the real cards (unless they changed that). That rule pretty much destroys tourny play.
Where am I pulling these numbers from, how about auctions, the open market, and stores. Your claim that in most cases signatures lower the values, are false. Just becuase price guides don't have a listing for signed cards, doesn't mean they lower the prices or that signatures have no value(well artist signatures anyway, Richard Garfield signed cards, although super rare, lower the value of the card almost 100% of the time).
Just becuase I have P9 in my deck, doesn't mean I'm running a show, and tell thing, and anyone with such cards, will do whatever they need to, to protect the cards. Just becuase they have a practical use, doesn't mean I shouldn't care about the condition, MTG is a CCG after all. Also ijust for argumental sake, It's not much slower to shuffle toploaders, then it is to shuffle regular sleeves(5-10 seconds slower tops, It's hardly a tourny stopper lol).
Annoying? Well, don't worry, I don't let players shuffle or even take my deck to look through it anymore(well without a judge watching from that side, anyway). I have to have a judge shuffle, and I need someone to watch my oponant go through me deck(I had a Black Lotus, Time Twister, and Mirror of Universe stolen from me, at different times, 2 of which were at tournies, until you had a Black Lotus stolen from you, you will never understand).
PS. Since then I replaced the Time Twister with a better version, and the mirror, but still haven't been able to get a new Black Lotus sigh(and this was 10 years ago), and It helped me get runner up in a 500 man tourny sigh.
Yes, just imagine how popular Vintage could've been today if it weren't for those non-sanctioned, proxy tournaments out there killing the format. [/sarcasm]
Wow. No offense, but you would be super-annoying to get paired against in an event. All-toploader deck, requiring the judge to shuffle your deck every time you pop a fetchland, refusing to let me handle your deck if I Extirpate you... just wow. Thankfully, it sounds like you haven't attended an actual Vintage tournament in a long time.
His response: "Pile shuffling is for gays."
I: "Give me my deck back right now"
Him: "(f-word) you."
So I called the judge, reported his behaviour, got him a warning and the guy pile shuffled.
The part of using toploaders is completely legit,and reasonable(people that say It's a hasle, are full of them selves).
However I might be strict with my better cards, but trust me, having a Black Lotus(that you saved up a lot of money for), and a Timetwister stolen from you, is not fun at all, infact it would probally be enough to make most people quit MTG all together.
As for unsanctioned tournaments, it all comes down to the TO and the judges. I've seen nice TOs that will let you proxy your own cards without charging you the $2 for a proxy or count it in the 10 proxy limit because you have the cards in a binder with you and don't want it scratched up. I've also seen other TOs that would just say "too bad", if you don't like it, don't play at our store (these are also the ones that are not hesitant to kick out a player for being a dumbass).
Also, I don't need to be full of myself to hate shuffling with toploaders. I don't have massive hands like an ogre, and you need to pile shuffle for a long ass time to "sufficiently" randomize a deck in toploaders. Given 50 minutes rounds, I would probably concede as well and grab some food instead of sitting through that process. Also, if you travel alot to tournaments, where you meet different TOs and judges, they might not be receptive of one guy that refuses to change his sleeving and kick you out because everyone else is complaining.
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Of course, in unsanctioned, anything goes. An opponent of mine at a SCG tournament had toploaders and nobody said anything, although that was 3 years ago.
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That's the second time you've brought that up. What makes you think you're the only person who's ever had Magic cards stolen from them?
You don't need to play in toploaders to prevent having a card stolen. And you don't need to "forbid" your opponents from touching your deck to prevent having a card stolen. They're right there in front of you. Just watch them!
No, you misunderstood, the Toploaders is to protect the cards from damage($800+ for a card, is not pocket change). The other part is(with having a judge near, when someone is looking through a deck, which is for stopping thieves). Keep in mind, that a Black Lotus costs so much, that even a little damage can drop the value of it by a hundred.
It is so easy for someone to steal cards from you at an actual tourny(opposed to just playing for fun at a card shop, it Isn't funny).
Yes, I know. I have a Black Lotus too (and an Ancestral Recall, and several Moxes, and...). You're not the only person with valuable cards. We get it. However, we're not talking about a card losing $800 worth of value. If you play your Black Lotus in Dragon Shields, it's not suddenly going to go from $800 to $0. If you're really abusive with it, it might lose some value, say $50 or so. So what? It could just as easily go up in value anyway, due to the game becoming more popular. If you're really that super-paranoid about it, then why are you playing with it at all?
My point is that I think you're being selfish. Maybe it's just me, but it sounds to me like you're determined to play in organized events so people can see your cards and give them the proper "Oooo"-ing and "Aaaaa"-ing you think you're due, and you don't care that it's making it harder and more cumbersome for your opponetns to carry out the match with you. Surely you realize that lots of people have those cards, and it's not a big deal. You're not going to get people drooling and fawning over your deck just because you have a mint Black Lotus. It's Vintage. Join the club.
As I said, just watch them. I really don't see how this is an issue. If you're playing a match, and you hand your deck to your opponent to give it a quick shuffle before the match, how in the world are they supposed to be able to look through your deck, find a Lotus, and sneak it off the table without you noticing? Let's be realistic here. It's not a real concern.
Do you really think that they are going to assign a judge to each player to make sure everything goes alright and no cards are damaged at all?
Oh no! What would happen if the judge you used to make sure nobody touched your cards, I don't know, happened to steal those cards!? MADNESS!
As a Judge, I would hate to have to stand behind someone all game in order to allow them to sleep comfortably at night. I agree with kombat on basically everything he said.
And as a TO I would not let people use toploaders as it makes shuffling (especially in fetchland heavy eternal formats) a pain in the ass. Why do you even play then?
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This is incorrect. Such a rule does exist in the DCI Universal Tournament Rules.
If your choice of toploader is interfering with shuffling, the judge may disallow it.
Player-made proxies are never allowed in sanctioned tournaments under any circumstances. If you own a card and don't want to play with it in a sanctioned tournament, then find another card you do want to play.
You can ask a judge to shuffle your deck. The judge is not obligated to fulfill that request. And if the reason you're asking them to shuffle is that you've chosen a card protection method that makes it impossible for you to properly randomize your deck yourself, not only do they have the right to refuse... you'll probably be asked to find new sleeves.
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