You're not the only one to not like Medic in testing. If he really isn't putting in any work versus control I feel like it may not even be SB worthy. His viability may legitimately be predicated on how saturated the meta is with Bonfire, Fury and to a lesser extent Entreat on top of Revelation post GTC. I haven't gotten a chance to test myself but honestly, with the his effects being so niche, I can see why he may just end up as a 3/3 vanilla. This..has me bummed.
I find it pretty interesting that the control you were facing was actively paying around Skullcrack, good to know it's that much of a problem.
Lastly, just toss Rest in Peace into the SB for Snappy shenanigans.
Totally agreed. He was a 3/3 vanilla in the match he was supposed to help in. Was very hard to wrap my head around that. Even when reckoner's abilities weren't super relevant he was a 3/3 pseudo unblockable and forced some bad blocks from resto angel and snapcaster.
There were a few situations where if I untapped and had it, and he didn't attempt to gain life on his turn while I was tapped down, I had won the match. Kind of interesting!
RIP is the plan long term, just wanted to try some different SB stuff like Thalia.
Wojek Halberdiers
He is exactly just like GHC, only that he can block and he's harder to cast. I found some awkward scenarios of having a good opening hand of two mountains, two 1-drops, but Wojek Halberdiers as my 2-drop. Nevertheless, if you can cast him, he's a very reliable body that can trade with most creatures in the format.
Truefire Paladin
He only has similar problems with the Halberdiers, only that you really don't get to use his abilities a bit later in the game. He becomes an excellent manasink late game if he sticks and optional first strike isn't bad. However, I didn't find myself activating his skills a lot.
Frontline Medic
I just said recently he's like Hellhole Flailer in Dos Rakis. I was wrong in that account. Hellhole Flailer can end games by himself, Frontline Medic can't. While he was useful in some situations, in most situations I would have preferred the wolf.
Spark Trooper
It's a bit harder to play this card, but when it swings it opens up turn arounds, or further buries the opponent.
Slayers' Stronghold
This card performed well for me, although I missed the Crucibles when I have no creature on board. I'm thinking of splitting it in my next tests (1 Crucible, 1 Stronghold).
Blind Obedience
It puts midrange creatures to shame. The extort is only semi-relevant, but it does use up your extra white mana.
Overall, I still like playing Lightning Mauler because he improves the value of our 1-drops late into the game. He also enables turn 3 haste Boros Reckoners, and we like that. Pyreheart Wolf still pushes damage better.
What I missed:
Pillar of Flame
Kills early drops. I actually missed this card to kill dorks. The SB is tight, so I'm not sure if we can still fit these in. If it goes in the maindeck, it'll be hard to cut stuff as well.
Hellion Crucible
During the times when my board is empty, I wanted it over Slayers' Stronghold.
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You sir deserve a goddamn medal for the amazing input. To add to your notes, I'd say that slayers stronghold was great if you're running it with pyreheart wolf. In the mid/late game you can basically combo kill people by sandbagging pyreheart wolf and alpha striking at the same time when you have six mana.
Pyreheart wolf also makes boros charm the nut. They're obviously both good on there own, but with wolf in your deck(which it should be) the reach from charm becomes relevant a lot quicker.
Wether you're running crucible or stronghold, I've felt 2 was too many in my 24 land boros reckoner deck. I'd rather only have one and play reckoner on turn 3 every time.
Play reckoner and wolf together. They're both amazballs.
WE REALLY NEED A PLAN FOR THE MIRROR.
Edit: RE~the mirror. The old plan was attrition them out, make some hellion, or alternatively just hellrider them. Reckoner throws a wrench in that plan since it's a 2 for one that can stall the ground or beatdown, whichever you prefer. It sort of remands me of Caw-Blade mirrors pre and post batterskull how the dynamic changed dramatically(for the worse arguably). The only way to not lose advantage by interacting with reckoner outside of not blocking is with O-ring or some terrible white destroy target attacking/blocking nonsense(which may end up being necessary). That means if we can't interact with reckoner, we need a new non-attrition oriented plan or else we're likely looking at a variance heavy mirror match. Spark trooper is great at creating a large life swing since the only instant speed removal that's commonly played is spear and volley, but it's a 4 mana card against a red deck. Still, the idea of playing 7-8 hellriders on the play might be good enough.
Other options which I've previously mentioned somewhere is vollcanic strength which is actually good on reckoner since you're generally going to stay even on cards if he gets picked off which I imagine would be rare. The only other option I imagine is just ignoring Reckoner and trying to beat the rest of there deck, but now there's a 4 power burn spell so easier said then done. Additionally, charm saving creatures from removal...would really suck. I'm guessing that we should just be faster in the mirror now as opposed to bigger, but I could be wrong. Blind obediance might be fine on the draw and 1 Oblivion ring is maybe fine, but I could be wrong. I really hope Blind obediance is good in the mirror because that would be awesome.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
I think Blind Obedience shuts them down a bit, but in the long run we might need more removal.
Thalia, Ash Zealot, Boros Reckoner, and any creature+Boros Charm (double strike mode) can block Spark Trooper. Boros Reckoner can be dealt with Oblivion Ring. Truefire Paladin is better in the mirror than Lightning Mauler.
Any more ideas?
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To add to your notes, I'd say that slayers stronghold was great if you're running it with pyreheart wolf. In the mid/late game you can basically combo kill people by sandbagging pyreheart wolf and alpha striking at the same time when you have six mana.
yeah that interaction seems really strong, though i think you need 23-24 land for it to be reliable. I was mostly playing a 22 land version. I think the conclusion we have to reach is that wolf makes every other card in your dec better, and cutting him is a mistake even if other cards look better on paper.
Blind Obedience
It puts midrange creatures to shame. The extort is only semi-relevant, but it does use up your extra white mana.
Overall, I still like playing Lightning Mauler because he improves the value of our 1-drops late into the game. He also enables turn 3 haste Boros Reckoners, and we like that. Pyreheart Wolf still pushes damage better.
I actually boarded this in during the flash matchup just to see how it interacted with resto angel for other matchups and it out performed frontline medic somehow.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
I can see where you're coming from with crucible vs. stronghold, but I'm going to be stubborn and keep playing the medic in wolf's place for awhile longer. I'm not entirely convinced yet.
My biggest question is how much burn do you guys think is right? right now I've just got 4 searing spear and 4 boros charm, but I feel like I want more... I just can't make room for it.
I will say that if you're trying to leave mana open for stuff like charm, spear, or skullcrack then stonewright's usefulness goes way down, and truefire paladin's usefulness goes way up.
Just the fact that control players are playing around skull crack makes me tingly. Just the existence of the card affects the game. I'm still not totally sold on it though. It really depends on what the meta shapes up to be. I'm more sold on it vs. fog than anything else.
I'm officially a huge fan of nearheath pilgrim out of the board to race fellow aggro decks, though spark trooper is looking more and more appealing.
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Spent a couple of hours last two nights testing different no Pyreheart Wolf versions after people suggested it vs. UW/x flash decks.
Frontline Medic underperformed drastically. He was only able to hold off a couple of revelations for a turn or two, but the tempo loss from him not having haste consistently and getting him put back on top of my deck hurt(charm into rev with him on top is lovely). So many times I'd look down at my board with him and another attacker and just wish I could push through for 3-5 guaranteed damage with wolf without having to worry about blocks. Battalion triggered a grand total of 3 times, once on an empty board, and twice pushing through a blocker costing me 2 damage each time so basically doing wolf's job but less consistently.
Wojek Halbierders performed to spec basically. Felt like having a chainwalker. Battallion triggered only a few times, but it wasn't relevant at all. I had a few situations with awkward mana where chainwalker would have actually been the better card. Starting hands of 2 one drops and a halbierder where my lands were r/w land, mountain, and Slayer's Stronghold made things less than ideal.
Boros Reckoner was the nuts. Tempo loss from getting him on top sucks, but he's a real threat, and I can't imagine how he'll perform in aggro matchups if I was happier to see him vs. control than I was Medic every time. Forces opponent to play differently, and he trades with more expensive threats. Kind of want to work in Blasphemous Act for random wins out of nowhere even if I know it isn't stable.
Legion Loyalist was a Raging Goblin all but twice. Battalion is hard to trigger in situations where it matters.
Slayer's Stronghold is nowhere near as good as Hellion Crucible. So many times I would have been sinking mana into crucible to setup relevant board position, I just sat there looking at stronghold wishing it wasn't worthless. It's too expensive to use reliably because you have to commit to it on your turn, and doesn't have enough impact on your x/1's when used later. It's solid with first strike guys, but every time I drew it other than one topdeck ftw I wished it was crucible to help me grind out in the long games.
Skullcrack forced my opponent to revelation on their own turn a few times while I was tapped out, in fear of getting hit by this, which actually let me slip a hellrider in multiple times with my opponent tapped down. Also was used in some eot burn flurries to finish games. I don't know how good it is overall, and I feel sometimes you end up holding up mana you shouldn't(would probably work better with crucible than stronghold), but it actually beat my expectations. It bought me turns I wouldn't have had with any other card, and won me games no other card would have. In response to a lifelink Azorius Charm that would have gained my opponent 8 life was a pretty solid play too.
Boros Charm gets you in a bad habit of holding it sadly(once again i think it has better synergy with crucible), but yeah it's obviously bonkers. You can bluff it, semi bluff with it, or hold it in anticipation of a sweeper then when it doesn't come just dome them for 4. Doublestrike ability was the least relevant in these matchups, but it won me a few combats.
Early conclusion is that Wolf is needed, stronghold sucks against a deck that only plays stuff at instant speed, and I feel like splashing white I really need to board something to mess with snapcaster shenanigans. Had a game where I got charmed 5 turns in a row after my zealot got pillared. I think a properly constructed SB is really important here and I can tell I didn't have one for the matchup. I really missed having hounds and thunderbolts for one.
I'm pretty much leaning to current RDW with boros charm, a little bit of sb help from white, and reckoner at this point.
My thoughts / experiences exactly, slayers strong hold has been much of a liability esp for mulligans where you need the red for T2 zealot or colored for reckoner
My biggest question is how much burn do you guys think is right? right now I've just got 4 searing spear and 4 boros charm, but I feel like I want more... I just can't make room for it.
I agree, I am currently running 4 charm, 3 pillar, 4 spear
I am tempted to try skull crack and brimstone in place of pillars
not running frontline medic or stonewright currently; cut SW since I know he is solid, would like to explore other options, want more burn and less X/1s
I think that is a fine place to start I might consider going full RW Sledgehammer, as I am a little apprehensive running 3 5 drops on 23 land; the only other idea I would push is to get some more mana-sinks where possible ~ a lot of us lean on Stonewright to have something to do if (honestly, when) we flood out.
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I think that is a fine place to start I might consider going full RW Sledgehammer, as I am a little apprehensive running 3 5 drops on 23 land; the only other idea I would push is to get some more mana-sinks where possible ~ a lot of us lean on Stonewright to have something to do if (honestly, when) we flood out.
I don't think I've heard you speak on Truefire Paladin as a sink once. What are your thoughts?
Seems fine, both abilities are very good and are things Boros likes. Probably a decent 2-of in the same way that Stonewright is now. Obviously starts to get VERY powerful at 4+ mana available.
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KoG would be underwhelming unless the meta shifts heavy black. We ran KoI in Dos Rakis because the field was flowing with white (Lingering Souls, Angels, Loxodon Smiters, etc.)
I would still play Boros Reckoner as a 4-of because he's just good like that.
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FWIW burn is pretty bad in the current meta ~ more than 8 spells is likely incorrect ~ you need HEAPS of bodies due to all the life gain ; more creatures make mauler, Pyreheart and hellrider better as well.
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Yeah, you want removal; Pyreaheart Wolf, first strike guys etc act like pseudo-removal. We're forced into solving a lot of problems via tactical means currently.
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Yeah, you want removal; Pyreaheart Wolf, first strike guys etc act like pseudo-removal. We're forced into solving a lot of problems via tactical means currently.
FWIW burn is pretty bad in the current meta ~ more than 8 spells is likely incorrect ~ you need HEAPS of bodies due to all the life gain ; more creatures make mauler, Pyreheart and hellrider better as well.
I've actually been thinking about cutting Searing Spear. Heresy, I know.
I went a 2/2 split on Truefire/Wojek, sometimes one is better than the other but they are both valuable so I diversified my threats. Some of the testing with stronghold was weak so I stripped it out to make my mana better. Spark Trooper is a card I am testing. I removed Frontline Medic after counting the games where I actually triggered battalion on it. Also I considered that the times I would would be a clogged board and I prefer pyreheart wolf on a clogged board as more damage gets through during the zerg-rush. Pyreheart also adds incremental value to first strike.
No problem!
Yeah medic was the card that least met my expectations.
I was boarding 3 Skullcracks in.
Totally agreed. He was a 3/3 vanilla in the match he was supposed to help in. Was very hard to wrap my head around that. Even when reckoner's abilities weren't super relevant he was a 3/3 pseudo unblockable and forced some bad blocks from resto angel and snapcaster.
There were a few situations where if I untapped and had it, and he didn't attempt to gain life on his turn while I was tapped down, I had won the match. Kind of interesting!
RIP is the plan long term, just wanted to try some different SB stuff like Thalia.
Wojek Halberdiers
He is exactly just like GHC, only that he can block and he's harder to cast. I found some awkward scenarios of having a good opening hand of two mountains, two 1-drops, but Wojek Halberdiers as my 2-drop. Nevertheless, if you can cast him, he's a very reliable body that can trade with most creatures in the format.
Truefire Paladin
He only has similar problems with the Halberdiers, only that you really don't get to use his abilities a bit later in the game. He becomes an excellent manasink late game if he sticks and optional first strike isn't bad. However, I didn't find myself activating his skills a lot.
Frontline Medic
I just said recently he's like Hellhole Flailer in Dos Rakis. I was wrong in that account. Hellhole Flailer can end games by himself, Frontline Medic can't. While he was useful in some situations, in most situations I would have preferred the wolf.
Spark Trooper
It's a bit harder to play this card, but when it swings it opens up turn arounds, or further buries the opponent.
Slayers' Stronghold
This card performed well for me, although I missed the Crucibles when I have no creature on board. I'm thinking of splitting it in my next tests (1 Crucible, 1 Stronghold).
Blind Obedience
It puts midrange creatures to shame. The extort is only semi-relevant, but it does use up your extra white mana.
Overall, I still like playing Lightning Mauler because he improves the value of our 1-drops late into the game. He also enables turn 3 haste Boros Reckoners, and we like that. Pyreheart Wolf still pushes damage better.
What I missed:
Pillar of Flame
Kills early drops. I actually missed this card to kill dorks. The SB is tight, so I'm not sure if we can still fit these in. If it goes in the maindeck, it'll be hard to cut stuff as well.
Hellion Crucible
During the times when my board is empty, I wanted it over Slayers' Stronghold.
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You sir deserve a goddamn medal for the amazing input. To add to your notes, I'd say that slayers stronghold was great if you're running it with pyreheart wolf. In the mid/late game you can basically combo kill people by sandbagging pyreheart wolf and alpha striking at the same time when you have six mana.
Pyreheart wolf also makes boros charm the nut. They're obviously both good on there own, but with wolf in your deck(which it should be) the reach from charm becomes relevant a lot quicker.
Wether you're running crucible or stronghold, I've felt 2 was too many in my 24 land boros reckoner deck. I'd rather only have one and play reckoner on turn 3 every time.
Play reckoner and wolf together. They're both amazballs.
WE REALLY NEED A PLAN FOR THE MIRROR.
Edit: RE~the mirror. The old plan was attrition them out, make some hellion, or alternatively just hellrider them. Reckoner throws a wrench in that plan since it's a 2 for one that can stall the ground or beatdown, whichever you prefer. It sort of remands me of Caw-Blade mirrors pre and post batterskull how the dynamic changed dramatically(for the worse arguably). The only way to not lose advantage by interacting with reckoner outside of not blocking is with O-ring or some terrible white destroy target attacking/blocking nonsense(which may end up being necessary). That means if we can't interact with reckoner, we need a new non-attrition oriented plan or else we're likely looking at a variance heavy mirror match. Spark trooper is great at creating a large life swing since the only instant speed removal that's commonly played is spear and volley, but it's a 4 mana card against a red deck. Still, the idea of playing 7-8 hellriders on the play might be good enough.
Other options which I've previously mentioned somewhere is vollcanic strength which is actually good on reckoner since you're generally going to stay even on cards if he gets picked off which I imagine would be rare. The only other option I imagine is just ignoring Reckoner and trying to beat the rest of there deck, but now there's a 4 power burn spell so easier said then done. Additionally, charm saving creatures from removal...would really suck. I'm guessing that we should just be faster in the mirror now as opposed to bigger, but I could be wrong. Blind obediance might be fine on the draw and 1 Oblivion ring is maybe fine, but I could be wrong. I really hope Blind obediance is good in the mirror because that would be awesome.
MB 4 Boros Reckoner
SB an extra 4 Boros Reckoner
I think Blind Obedience shuts them down a bit, but in the long run we might need more removal.
Thalia, Ash Zealot, Boros Reckoner, and any creature+Boros Charm (double strike mode) can block Spark Trooper. Boros Reckoner can be dealt with Oblivion Ring. Truefire Paladin is better in the mirror than Lightning Mauler.
Any more ideas?
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yeah that interaction seems really strong, though i think you need 23-24 land for it to be reliable. I was mostly playing a 22 land version. I think the conclusion we have to reach is that wolf makes every other card in your dec better, and cutting him is a mistake even if other cards look better on paper.
I actually boarded this in during the flash matchup just to see how it interacted with resto angel for other matchups and it out performed frontline medic somehow.
I can see where you're coming from with crucible vs. stronghold, but I'm going to be stubborn and keep playing the medic in wolf's place for awhile longer. I'm not entirely convinced yet.
My biggest question is how much burn do you guys think is right? right now I've just got 4 searing spear and 4 boros charm, but I feel like I want more... I just can't make room for it.
Here's my list for example:
12 mountain
4 clifftop retreat
4 sacred foundry
1 slayers' stronghold
4 stromkirk noble
4 rakdos cackler
2 stonewright
4 ash zealot
4 lightning mauler
4 boros reckoner
3 frontline medic
4 hellrider
4 boros charm
1 frontline medic
4 thalia
4 nearheath pilgrim
2 blind obedience
2 flames of the firebrand
2 oblivion ring
I will say that if you're trying to leave mana open for stuff like charm, spear, or skullcrack then stonewright's usefulness goes way down, and truefire paladin's usefulness goes way up.
Just the fact that control players are playing around skull crack makes me tingly. Just the existence of the card affects the game. I'm still not totally sold on it though. It really depends on what the meta shapes up to be. I'm more sold on it vs. fog than anything else.
I'm officially a huge fan of nearheath pilgrim out of the board to race fellow aggro decks, though spark trooper is looking more and more appealing.
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Commander:
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My thoughts / experiences exactly, slayers strong hold has been much of a liability esp for mulligans where you need the red for T2 zealot or colored for reckoner
I agree, I am currently running 4 charm, 3 pillar, 4 spear
I am tempted to try skull crack and brimstone in place of pillars
not running frontline medic or stonewright currently; cut SW since I know he is solid, would like to explore other options, want more burn and less X/1s
4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Hellrider
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble
3 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Boros Charm
4 Searing Spear
Sorcery
2 Pillar of Flame
Land
4 Clifftop Retreat
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Slayer's Stronghold
12 Mountain
2 Plains
Experimental Kraj
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4x Ash Zealot
3x Boros Reckoner
3x Hellrider
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Silverblade Paladin
2x Spark Trooper
4x Stromkirk Noble
1x Thundermaw Hellkite
1x Truefire Paladin
3x Wojek Halberiders
2x Boros Charm
2x Brimstone Volley
4x Searing Spear
Lands: (23)
2x Boros Guildgate
4x Clifftop Retreat
12x Mountain
1x Plains
4x Sacred Foundry
2x Blind Obedience
2x Boros Charm
2x Flames of the Firebrand
3x Oblivion Ring
2x Skullcrack
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Thundermaw Hellkite
How much utility lands can you fit in a deck with Boros Reckoner? I'd wager one at most, but I'm currently running Cavern.
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Primarily I was paranoid about not getting enough white mana to play Silverblade.
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I don't think I've heard you speak on Truefire Paladin as a sink once. What are your thoughts?
Personally, I think it's extremely solid.
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I would still play Boros Reckoner as a 4-of because he's just good like that.
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Have you started testing Z?
I've actually been thinking about cutting Searing Spear. Heresy, I know.
4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Hellrider
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Rakdos Cackler
2 Stonewright
4 Stromkirk Noble
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Boros Charm
3 Searing Spear
Sorcery
2 Pillar of Flame
Land
4 Clifftop Retreat
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Slayer's Stronghold
12 Mountain
2 Plains
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Rest in Peace
3 Skullcrack
2 Flames of the Firebrand
2 Pillar of Flame
Experimental Kraj
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
2 Truefire Paladin
2 Wojek Halberdiers
4 Ash Zealot
3 Lightning Mauler
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Pyreheart Wolf
4 Hellrider
4 Boros Charm
4 Searing Spear
Lands (23)
note: testing w/o Slayers' Stronghold
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Clifftop Retreat
2 Boros Guildgate
13 Mountain
3 Spark Trooper
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mizzium Mortars
4 Pillar of Flame
2 Oblivion Ring
I went a 2/2 split on Truefire/Wojek, sometimes one is better than the other but they are both valuable so I diversified my threats. Some of the testing with stronghold was weak so I stripped it out to make my mana better. Spark Trooper is a card I am testing. I removed Frontline Medic after counting the games where I actually triggered battalion on it. Also I considered that the times I would would be a clogged board and I prefer pyreheart wolf on a clogged board as more damage gets through during the zerg-rush. Pyreheart also adds incremental value to first strike.