I have reservations about Gisela, Aurelia, and Collective Blessing but that's your own business. They're good cards that might work out for you. I would take out the 4 Arbor Elf as they only untap Forest Lands which is only 8 of your lands. You want more consistency, not to mention you'll be flooded with dorks.
Be careful of Obzedat, Ghost Council. Even though you have 2 Charms to deal with it side-board, I find that I can't stop him once I'm out of charms and he's blinking back and forth. Consider Silverblade Paladin if you really feel like it, otherwise it's a solid list.
I forget it's forests only, been a while since I've used them. I think maybe I'll drop 2 of them for a healer and spear. Having said that, I completely forgot that Boros Reckoner was a card and I might switch out the healers for reckoners, we'll see how the mana is.
**EDIT** After some goldfishing, I've changed the list to the following as I wasn't liking the bonfire, but I still wanted a big burn spell to finish guys off or take out bigger threats, so I'm going to try out Aurelia's Fury.
I took some consideration into what was said, but I still think that I don't want the manadorks, in favor of Gyre Sage. I want something that does more than ramp me, and Gyre Sage fills that role nicely. It creates surplus mana, which this deck hasn't ever wanted to be faster, just to put down multiple threats as the situation calls for it. Farseeks were added more for consistently getting above 4 mana than for the color fixing, hence why there's only 3.
Thalias were originally Burning-Tree Emissaries, but after realizing I'm not aggroing them out (I'm just gumming up the board with larger guys, until I can alpha/Angel them out), I realized Thalia was exactly what I wanted. All of my noncreature spells can use the mana that Gyre Sage creates to pay for them (including Blessing) and the rest of the deck is creatures and lands, so there's a nice theoretical synergy there. She also has the obvious bonus of delaying a sweeper by a turn, and being a thorn for the rest of the game.
I've also been impressed by Domri Rade's abilities to just completely open a game up if you're able to keep him around for more than one activation, hence why I'm so fixated on playing that card. I've made a few emblems too, which have obviously won the game once I controlled one.
Also, Cavern and Blessing are experiments, but I did need Cavern to cast a Angel of Serenity for the game once, and Collective Blessing was an interesting "Overrun".
Next step: I feel like -1 Domri, -1 Blessing, +2 Garruk, Primal Hunter might be the next evolution for me to try, as I do want Garruk for his "Harmonize".
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Nocturnal God of Chaos of The Æsir Probably the most random person you will ever meet. Trust me on this one. Well, I'm off to poop.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
I want something that does more than ramp me, and Gyre Sage fills that role nicely.
Fair enough. Care to sketch out what you think will be the best case and average scenarios with Gyre Sage?
Farseeks were added more for consistently getting above 4 mana than for the color fixing, hence why there's only 3.
Thalias were originally Burning-Tree Emissaries, but after realizing I'm not aggroing them out (I'm just gumming up the board with larger guys, until I can alpha/Angel them out), I realized Thalia was exactly what I wanted.
Both of these are decent and serve the same purpose (to timewalk your opponent relative to you. I would switch the numbers from 4-3 to 3-4 though, since Thalia is legendary.
I've also been impressed by Domri Rade's abilities to just completely open a game up if you're able to keep him around for more than one activation, hence why I'm so fixated on playing that card. I've made a few emblems too, which have obviously won the game once I controlled one.
Yeah, Domri is the nuts. Card draw and removal in the same neat package.
Also, Cavern and Blessing are experiments
I have 5 'flex' slots in my land slots for cards like Cavern, Wolf Run and Township. Cavern is pretty bad unless you are playing blue, and then it's pretty awesome. So it's metagame dependant. I like it as a two of.
I have Collective Blessing as a SB card in the mirror, and it's *very* good in that role (particularly with mana dorks.....).
Next step: I feel like -1 Domri, -1 Blessing, +2 Garruk, Primal Hunter might be the next evolution for me to try, as I do want Garruk for his "Harmonize".
Garruk is also awesome. No arguement there. It's hard to explain the feeling of casting him when there is a Thragtusk already in play.
Both of these are decent and serve the same purpose (to timewalk your opponent relative to you. I would switch the numbers from 4-3 to 3-4 though, since Thalia is legendary.
I've had a bit of a snag trying to cast 2 spells on T3 with Thalia, due to the "tax" she enforces. Ideally, we'd like to go T2 Sage, T3 Thalia + Farseek, but that's not possible. T2 Farseek, T3 Sage + Thalia is VERY strong, however, so be aware that *that* is the correct sequencing.
Yeah, Domri is the nuts. Card draw and removal in the same neat package.
As I said before, I love that guy. He does things that very few cards can simulate, let alone do all three. SO glad I paid $40 for 3 (one foil, two regular) at the prerelease.
I have 5 'flex' slots in my land slots for cards like Cavern, Wolf Run and Township. Cavern is pretty bad unless you are playing blue, and then it's pretty awesome. So it's metagame dependant. I like it as a two of.
As far as these lands go: I don't think I want anything other than 2 Wolf Run in the MD, though I would appreciate Cavern/Township/Ghost Quarter in situations. I had Township for a while in an aggro variant I had, then I switched over to Mikaeus, the Lunarch and it was much more effective at that effect. (I hope I didn't overuse "effect" there...) Ghost Quarter's effect I got from Acidic Slime in the board, so I no longer want those. This leaves Cavern to be relegated to the board, but I'm not sure I want them.
This is after about 10 games today with the previous list. Having less Thalias feels better, and despite being 23 lands with 10 spells that cost 5+, it is pretty reliable. The one caution is to only keep a 2 lander if you have at least 2 spells to cast for 2 mana. After 3 draw phases, if you haven't drawn a land or a Farseek (which should be in the opener) off of two lands, you've probably lost, but that's true of pretty much any deck.
Nocturnal God of Chaos of The Æsir Probably the most random person you will ever meet. Trust me on this one. Well, I'm off to poop.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
Best case scenario: T2 Gyre Sage, T3 Thalia, attack 2 (or block 2/x's), T4 Reckoner + Smiter, T5 Aurelia
Average scenario: T2 Sage, T3 anything, attack for 2, T4 Thrag/Resto/Hellkite.
I've had a bit of a snag trying to cast 2 spells on T3 with Thalia, due to the "tax" she enforces. Ideally, we'd like to go T2 Sage, T3 Thalia + Farseek, but that's not possible. T2 Farseek, T3 Sage + Thalia is VERY strong, however, so be aware that *that* is the correct sequencing.
As I said before, I love that guy. He does things that very few cards can simulate, let alone do all three. SO glad I paid $40 for 3 (one foil, two regular) at the prerelease.
As far as these lands go: I don't think I want anything other than 2 Wolf Run in the MD, though I would appreciate Cavern/Township/Ghost Quarter in situations. I had Township for a while in an aggro variant I had, then I switched over to Mikaeus, the Lunarch and it was much more effective at that effect. (I hope I didn't overuse "effect" there...) Ghost Quarter's effect I got from Acidic Slime in the board, so I no longer want those. This leaves Cavern to be relegated to the board, but I'm not sure I want them.
Yep, I'm debating this at the moment, but I need to figure out the MD definitively before tuning the board, I feel.
I used to play Jund pre-GTC. I'm VERY familiar with that feeling ;).
This is after about 10 games today with the previous list. Having less Thalias feels better, and despite being 23 lands with 10 spells that cost 5+, it is pretty reliable. The one caution is to only keep a 2 lander if you have at least 2 spells to cast for 2 mana. After 3 draw phases, if you haven't drawn a land or a Farseek (which should be in the opener) off of two lands, you've probably lost, but that's true of pretty much any deck.
I just don't like Thalia in a Domri-centric build. It's literally anti-synergy...you really really want to have Domri online ASAP, and Thalia stops that cold. I understand it "de-ramps" your opponents, but there's no reason to MB thalia, especially when you're so close to the Saito Naya build. Flinthoof & Burning tree just serve Gyre Sage so much better than Thalia.
I understand the hands that you don't have Domri, or don't have ramp, it's not a bad card, but it's not that stellar against aggro, especially naya blitz (and no ramp or no domri is a terrible hand anyway). I'd prefer the consistency of Saito's build if I were looking to abuse Domri. I find a more traditional Naya Midrange build to be stronger, though.
This is after about 10 games today with the previous list. Having less Thalias feels better, and despite being 23 lands with 10 spells that cost 5+, it is pretty reliable.
I think that the Farseeks go a long way towards helping you there.
The one caution is to only keep a 2 lander if you have at least 2 spells to cast for 2 mana. After 3 draw phases, if you haven't drawn a land or a Farseek (which should be in the opener) off of two lands, you've probably lost, but that's true of pretty much any deck.
Your list is pretty solid now. All your 2-ofs are a little random (and some could easily be cut for Garruk) but that seems more like a personal preference thing.
I just don't like Thalia in a Domri-centric build.
Domri is awesome, but it's hardly Domri-centric. The deck just happens to have hardly any spells. In the current creature oriented meta you want to deploy a threat first anyway.
I understand the hands that you don't have Domri, or don't have ramp, it's not a bad card, but it's not that stellar against aggro, especially naya blitz (and no ramp or no domri is a terrible hand anyway). I'd prefer the consistency of Saito's build if I were looking to abuse Domri. I find a more traditional Naya Midrange build to be stronger, though.
I think his list is drifting more towards a Naya midrange deck.
Domri is awesome, but it's hardly Domri-centric. The deck just happens to have hardly any spells. In the current creature oriented meta you want to deploy a threat first anyway.
I think his list is drifting more towards a Naya midrange deck.
4 Domri's, 4 Farseek and a bunch of creatures SHOULD be Domri centric. If it's not, you're doing it wrong.
Saito's Naya build was a midrange deck, just a weaker version of Naya Midrange. I don't see how dropping a land, dropping some 2 drops, adding in Farseek and a bunch of big finishers helped out the build. 2 Aurelia, 2 Thundermaw, 2 Angel of Serenity with 23 land is just bad. Especially the two AoS, those will never be hard casted.
Aggro just runs that list over, and it did nothing to shore up the match against Junk (outside of two pipe-dream AoS). If this truly is competitive deck building, then we should be honest about the potential of the deck.
Managed to get some testing in last night. I felt like I had to mulligan a lot, but I'm not sure if I was just getting unlucky getting double Kessig in hand 3 games out of the 10 or so games played.
I've also had to replace the Reckoners with Healers as the healers I was gonna lend fell through, so we'll see how that goes.
Gisela has been a beast and I'm loving her in the deck. I've swapped one wolf run for a slayers stronghold and I'm loving it, it gives the deck so much late game reach.
Aurelia's Fury has been very good too and I'm not really missing bonfire at all.
Acidic Slimes are just fantastic and I actually feel like I would like one main board, but I'm not sure what I would take out, maybe I could drop 1 healer.
Collective Blessing has yet to come into play, but hopefully I'll get some more testing in tonight. The one in the side did become a Assemble the Legion, which has been a all star.
Based on input. Angel was occasionally cast MD, but usually, when you can surprise an opponent with one out of the board, it's pretty excellent. Flames of the Firebrand was just Bonfire originally, but this seemed MUCH more reliable. The SB is really where my questions lie, as I feel like it's quite thin, but at the same time, there's lots of things to cast against everyone.
Also, Thalias are generally the first thing I board out, if I know they aren't doing much more than being a 2/1 First Striker. That said, I did just play a match where I had to cast a 3 mana Farseek, and a 4 mana Domri (twice, with Domri). Won both of those games, though it was due more to my opponent mulling to 5 than out playing him. (Remember, being honest about the testing makes it more credible.)
Nocturnal God of Chaos of The Æsir Probably the most random person you will ever meet. Trust me on this one. Well, I'm off to poop.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
Based on input. Angel was occasionally cast MD, but usually, when you can surprise an opponent with one out of the board, it's pretty excellent. Flames of the Firebrand was just Bonfire originally, but this seemed MUCH more reliable. The SB is really where my questions lie, as I feel like it's quite thin, but at the same time, there's lots of things to cast against everyone.
Also, Thalias are generally the first thing I board out, if I know they aren't doing much more than being a 2/1 First Striker. That said, I did just play a match where I had to cast a 3 mana Farseek, and a 4 mana Domri (twice, with Domri). Won both of those games, though it was due more to my opponent mulling to 5 than out playing him. (Remember, being honest about the testing makes it more credible.)
I still think you need to do more against aggro g1. If your opponent is on a burning tree draw you have nothing against that.
I would
-1 Domri
-2 Acidic Slime
+3 Mizzium Mortars
I wouldn't MB Thalia, but that's your preference. You absolutely need some removal, though, and mizzium has the benefit of being a board wipe late game. You need to be able to answer Champion -> Burning Tree -> another human -> front line medic, and Domri's fight won't do that. Boros & loxodon also do nothing against bigger Jund & B/R aggro lists that will be flying over you after t3.
IMO, domri becomes incredibly strong when you can drop Loxodon and Boros t2, but if you're not running dorks you can't do that. I also think smaller Garruk is a better MB card, particularly since you are weaker to aggro's opening draws. Serves as pseudo removal and provides chumps.
I still think you need to do more against aggro g1. If your opponent is on a burning tree draw you have nothing against that.
I would
-1 Domri
-2 Acidic Slime
+3 Mizzium Mortars
I wouldn't MB Thalia, but that's your preference. You absolutely need some removal, though, and mizzium has the benefit of being a board wipe late game. You need to be able to answer Champion -> Burning Tree -> another human -> front line medic, and Domri's fight won't do that. Boros & loxodon also do nothing against bigger Jund & B/R aggro lists that will be flying over you after t3.
IMO, domri becomes incredibly strong when you can drop Loxodon and Boros t2, but if you're not running dorks you can't do that. I also think smaller Garruk is a better MB card, particularly since you are weaker to aggro's opening draws. Serves as pseudo removal and provides chumps.
I've had a lot of success actually, by doing the following:
It seems unlikely, I know. But generally, I can force trades across the board (provided they don't play 4 Rampager, which is SERIOUS business), then take over with my Angel plan. Collective Blessing has been pretty slow, but I haven't played a midrange mirror yet, either.
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Nocturnal God of Chaos of The Æsir Probably the most random person you will ever meet. Trust me on this one. Well, I'm off to poop.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
I was wondering why I was seeing Mortars in Naya lists.
Thundermaw, Aurelia, and Wolf Run go over the top, so it just felt like win more, especially when Bonfire and Fury are at our disposal to help end games.
A spear however is instant speed, and has the added benefit of stopping humaninator combo.
I'm still not a fan of removal spells in a Domri build mainboard. The only deck it's vital for is Humans, and that's only if they get their God hand and they're on the play. Too niche.
I was wondering why I was seeing Mortars in Naya lists.
Thundermaw, Aurelia, and Wolf Run go over the top, so it just felt like win more, especially when Bonfire and Fury are at our disposal to help end games.
A spear however is instant speed, and has the added benefit of stopping humaninator combo.
I'm still not a fan of removal spells in a Domri build mainboard. The only deck it's vital for is Humans, and that's only if they get their God hand and they're on the play. Too niche.
Mizzium has the benefit of being incredibly versatile. Saito ran it as a 4-of in his midrange builds, and since it's been floating b/w 2 and 4. I personally am not a fan on Bonfire in Naya Midrange, it's too finicky, and we have too many things to cast from the hand. It's better in Jund Midrange.
Neither Thundermaw, Aurelia nor Kessig Wolf Run are single-target removal spells OR board wipes, so I don't see how they compare.
Aurelia's Fury is also not going to be a spell that's relevant early game, and is more "Win More" than Mizzium or any of our creatures. The name of the game in Naya is to continually out value our opponents, and being able to pick off their small creatures early game, and wipe the entire board late game makes for a very powerful card with our creature suite. If we have a t2 loxodon or smiter, we get to save it to blow them out. If we don't, we save our ass from being destroyed in 3 turns by aggro. It's not just Humans where it's valuable, against Expirement Jund or Zombies it can buy us the turn we need to stabilize.
Spear will *barely* answer the Reanimator combo, at best stalling for a turn. The one mana exile w/ flashback does a better job than spear, and it's also at instant speed. It's a fine answer to aggro's early creature, but lacks the ability to blow them out late game. I keep my spears in the side for aggro, but wouldn't be caught dead without Mizzium MB.
It's sad because I do love bonfire, but I have been more disappointed with that card this format than I ever have. I cast it 90% from my hand, and have had to not miracle on more than one occasion, either because of an opposing Reckoner, or because I just needed to make a different play. It would show up t2, or in my opening hand, and it just dawned on me that the card should be Mizzium.
Mizzium has the benefit of being incredibly versatile. Saito ran it as a 4-of in his midrange builds, and since it's been floating b/w 2 and 4. I personally am not a fan on Bonfire in Naya Midrange, it's too finicky, and we have too many things to cast from the hand. It's better in Jund Midrange.
Saito needed it more I think. His build needs to get in some early beats from Boar/Sage/BTE, so removing a creature, particularly road blocks with big butts like Smiter and Resto is more crucial to his tempo. I'm not sure Domri builds with more heft in the ranks need this.
Neither Thundermaw, Aurelia nor Kessig Wolf Run are single-target removal spells OR board wipes, so I don't see how they compare.
"Going over the top" essentially means, "I don't care what you cast out on the battlefield, I'm coming for lethal."
These builds go bigger. The slapping fat onto the table every turn and saying "answer me now or die" approach is in lieu of wipes/removal.
Aurelia's Fury is also not going to be a spell that's relevant early game, and is more "Win More" than Mizzium or any of our creatures. The name of the game in Naya is to continually out value our opponents, and being able to pick off their small creatures early game, and wipe the entire board late game makes for a very powerful card with our creature suite. If we have a t2 loxodon or smiter, we get to save it to blow them out. If we don't, we save our ass from being destroyed in 3 turns by aggro. It's not just Humans where it's valuable, against Expirement Jund or Zombies it can buy us the turn we need to stabilize.
I disagree here. Fury and Bonfire are meant to be late game finishers, so naturally they are not relevant in the early game any more than Aurelia or Thundermaw is. As for "out value", while value is a central theme here I think that's more Jund than us. Domri -> Thundermaw -> Aurelia style builds want to out power. The exodus from value into power explains why Huntmaster is being dropped from some of the newer Naya lists. As for fearing aggro, I just don't. An opening Smiter or Reckoner is fine, especially when accelerating into a turn 4 Thragtusk. If that opening isn't possible, the alternative is Thalia which has been great too. Her first strike and prison on Spears and Growth is extremely relevant.
Spear will *barely* answer the Reanimator combo, at best stalling for a turn. The one mana exile w/ flashback does a better job than spear, and it's also at instant speed. It's a fine answer to aggro's early creature, but lacks the ability to blow them out late game. I keep my spears in the side for aggro, but wouldn't be caught dead without Mizzium MB.
Certainly Purify the Grave is better out of board, but I was suggesting Spear mainboard over Mortars to have a leg up in game 1 against Humanimator while simultaneouly having a tool against hyper aggro and opposing Reckoners at instant speed. Buying one turn against combo is sometimes all you'll need.
It's sad because I do love bonfire, but I have been more disappointed with that card this format than I ever have. I cast it 90% from my hand, and have had to not miracle on more than one occasion, either because of an opposing Reckoner, or because I just needed to make a different play. It would show up t2, or in my opening hand, and it just dawned on me that the card should be Mizzium.
I think Mortars over Bonfire is the right call. I find Bonfire clunky as well and dislike it. It was great during that time frame when birds were legal and we also needed those last points of damage to close games. Now, x8 dorks + Gavony isn't viable and we have Aurelia at the top end to close.
This is where I'm sitting right now for next weekends PTQ.
Any thoughts are welcome. I want a strong midgame, and the ability to hang in early game.
Going into a relatively unknown Meta, would expect a lot of Blitz Agro and Reanimator, possibly a few other Mid Range decks.
Sideboard may not be exact, running it from Memory.
Things I wouldn't mind finding room for Main deck are Selesnya Charms, but I detest lowering the creature count anymore.
Any good plans vs. Reanimator would be appreciated as well. Purify's seem to want a spot in the board maybe? I seem to do Ok vs it if it plays fair (No Unburial Rites) but when it doesn't it's really tough pairing.
Saito needed it more I think. His build needs to get in some early beats from Boar/Sage/BTE, so removing a creature, particularly road blocks with big butts like Smiter and Resto is more crucial to his tempo. I'm not sure Domri builds with more heft in the ranks need this.
"Going over the top" essentially means, "I don't care what you cast out on the battlefield, I'm coming for lethal."
These builds go bigger. The slapping fat onto the table every turn and saying "answer me now or die" approach is in lieu of wipes/removal.
I disagree here. Fury and Bonfire are meant to be late game finishers, so naturally they are not relevant in the early game any more than Aurelia or Thundermaw is. As for "out value", while value is a central theme here I think that's more Jund than us. Domri -> Thundermaw -> Aurelia style builds want to out power. The exodus from value into power explains why Huntmaster is being dropped from some of the newer Naya lists. As for fearing aggro, I just don't. An opening Smiter or Reckoner is fine, especially when accelerating into a turn 4 Thragtusk. If that opening isn't possible, the alternative is Thalia which has been great too. Her first strike and prison on Spears and Growth is extremely relevant.
Certainly Purify the Grave is better out of board, but I was suggesting Spear mainboard over Mortars to have a leg up in game 1 against Humanimator while simultaneouly having a tool against hyper aggro and opposing Reckoners at instant speed. Buying one turn against combo is sometimes all you'll need.
I think Mortars over Bonfire is the right call. I find Bonfire clunky as well and dislike it. It was great during that time frame when birds were legal and we also needed those last points of damage to close games. Now, x8 dorks + Gavony isn't viable and we have Aurelia at the top end to close.
I wouldn't recommend running Naya Midrange w/o Thundermaw, Aurelia or KWR, so they really aren't relevant in a Mizzium vs other spells conversation. In my mind they are staples. They finish the game, and Mizzium is really more about getting us there. Def agree they are the cards that give us our real power.
The deck in general needs removal. If a person prefers Spears over Mizzium, that's fine. If someone is leaning towards running Bonfire, I'd advise mizzium at this point. But running no removal is just asking for a bad time.
A "Domri build" needs cards like BTE and Flinthoof to give it that punch it needs. Thalia doesn't do this...and then hurts you from playing Domri. If one wants to build a deck around Domri, I would recommend focusing on getting as many creatures as I possibly could on the battlefield before t3. As soon as you start adding heft, there's no reason to keep domri at 4, when Relentless and PH are arguably more impactful on the board. The amount of resources they need to get around the first Domri should be enough to close out the game...needing a second or third just isn't the reality. Once you starting running a bigger Naya build, I think Domri at 2 is appropriate.
I keep mentioning Saito only because he was so impactful on the meta when GTC first dropped. I actually don't agree with his early build, nor Keibler's, but they are great starting points and have gotten the deck to where it's at now.
I'm not a fan of Fury really. I've had it played against me to little effect, and I've played it and never thought "THIS will win me the game". It's nice out of the board against control, maybe, but even then a cavern naming human has been about all I've need to beat blue at this point.
Not fearing aggro is your prerogative, but aggro decks have placed consistently higher than Naya Midrange in every tournament. I don't "fear" any deck, but I am certainly prepared to face the meta, which at this point is Reanimator and Aggro. If your build is not running removal (not saying "your" as any one person, just a player in general) you're going to get smashed on. There are times you'll get smashed on just due to their draws, so why increase your chance of pain. The only reason I prefer Mizzium at this point is it serves as early removal, which we need, and takes over for Bonfire late game, in my mind "saving me spots." I can run 3-4 Mizzium and know exactly what I'm getting every game.
Good points overall, but "running no removal is just asking for a bad time" and "If your build is not running removal...you're going to get smashed on." isn't exactly very convincing evidence to me.
Aurelia is far from a staple. Looking back at SCG Open top 16s this month, the 12th place Naya list from Orlando played Angel of Serenity over Aurelia. The 13th place list from D.C. topped out at Thundermaw Hellkite. My evaluation posits that lists topping out at Aurelia are not looking for removal, they are looking to curve out and as such smash for the win, much as the 1st place list back in Cincinnati did which didn't run any removal.
And for all intents and purposes, Domri (second ability), Resto (flash block), and Bonfire/Fury (mana dump) all serve as removal.
Naya midrange without aggro hate is still the best established deck out there against aggro game 1. Making special accommodations to face an aggro dominant field is viable, but not necessary.
And a Domri build doesn't need BTE and Flinthoof just because Saito's deck ran them. I don't know about you, but I'm here in hopes to help pioneer and pilot to results a true midrange Domri build. Emphatic statements like that stifle innovation.
I'm at work so I can't go as in depth as I'd like, but from playing in a number of tournaments and from watching a good number more, removal is more than key. We're in a meta where aggro decks can win by t3 and render Thragtusk pretty useless. You absolutely have to remove their creatures as they hit the board early on, expecting to block them to death isn't viable.
I also said "in my mind" those cards are staples. From my experience with the deck, I would not run Naya without them. I preference most of my statements like this with IMO, or something else relevant to my playing experience. I don't make staple assumptions for other players.
Running 4 Domri's means you want to run as many creatures as an aggro deck. If you're trying to pioneer a build that runs 4 Domri's in our midrange shell, I'm not sure you'll need to do much work. Drop a Relentless and a removal spell, and you've freed up spots for 2 more Domri's. At this point in the meta I don't see the point, though.
t3 "maybe" removal, t4 flash blocking and bonfire/fury from hand is not removal.
The reason a build focused heavy on creatures and Domri "needs" BTE and Flinthoof is because these cards allow you to not only nut out your opponent, but allow you to make full use of Domri. With these cards online t2, you have free reign to fight or peek. The only other way you can do this is if you open t1 dork, t2 smiter/reckoner. Without either dorks, or BTE, running Gyre Sage and Thalia isn't a good enough shell to make full use of Domri t3. And if your plan is to not drop Domri t3, that's playing the card wrong IMO. As one of the strongest PW's in the colors, you want him online ASAP.
There's a difference b/w innovation and running cards that don't foster synergy. In a competitive environment we need to be realistic about what our decks do and what we're going to be facing.
I'm at work so I can't go as in depth as I'd like, but from playing in a number of tournaments and from watching a good number more, removal is more than key. We're in a meta where aggro decks can win by t3 and render Thragtusk pretty useless. You absolutely have to remove their creatures as they hit the board early on, expecting to block them to death isn't viable.
Well, I dunno about win by T3, but I agree that Thragtusk is often a little slow and a little irrelevant vs aggro.
Running 4 Domri's means you want to run as many creatures as an aggro deck. If you're trying to pioneer a build that runs 4 Domri's in our midrange shell, I'm not sure you'll need to do much work. Drop a Relentless and a removal spell, and you've freed up spots for 2 more Domri's. At this point in the meta I don't see the point, though.
I'm currently running 12 spells / 23 lands / 25 creatures in my list. A Domri 'build around' is just code for maximising your chances to draw off his +1. My list is a little creature light at 25, giving me a 41 2/3 % change of hitting a creature each time. Every addition creature I add gives me another 1 2/3 %. That means that for every 60 times I activate it, I will get one more card draw. That's a marginal enough advantage that I'm ok with running better spells instead of showhorning creatures in to make the deck 'Domri centric'.
t3 "maybe" removal, t4 flash blocking and bonfire/fury from hand is not removal.
Actually, I find that 3 power of flash guys really does count as removal. I love it so much that I am running Wolfir Avenger (which is a better removal spell than Boros Reckoner vs aggro, since it can more consistently eat a blocker and stop a 7/7 Champion of the Parish or similar, and the regeneration makes it more durable vs removal, particularly that of control.
The reason a build focused heavy on creatures and Domri "needs" BTE and Flinthoof is because these cards allow you to not only nut out your opponent, but allow you to make full use of Domri. With these cards online t2, you have free reign to fight or peek. The only other way you can do this is if you open t1 dork, t2 smiter/reckoner. Without either dorks, or BTE, running Gyre Sage and Thalia isn't a good enough shell to make full use of Domri t3. And if your plan is to not drop Domri t3, that's playing the card wrong IMO. As one of the strongest PW's in the colors, you want him online ASAP.
Look, I'm not defending Gyre Sage or Thalia as choices (I have found Thalia to be too weak, and think Gyre Sage is just way less consistent than Pilgrim). But I think you're overstating the importance of *needing* to play a 2 drop then Domri. I'm perfectly happy to start with Pilgrim - Smiter. But if that doesn't happen, Farseek - Huntmaster - Resto/Township is a pretty good sequence of events vs most decks as well, that tend to be pretty hard to disrupt.
There's a difference b/w innovation and running cards that don't foster synergy. In a competitive environment we need to be realistic about what our decks do and what we're going to be facing.
I'm not sure I understand what point you are trying to make with your first sentence.
Boros Charm is versatile enough to reach your main goal : kill as fast as possible and keep on board your creatures. Selenya Charm is a must have against reanimator and for its pump effect and I feel Aurelia is a must have too for her double attack effect (and I have just 2 Hellkites right now ).
TBH I'm not a fan of the cards being cut or the cards being added in. I tested both charms and they didn't like me much.
My deck is positioned to be the best deck with 3 power guys in it. Garruk, Thragtusk and Avenger are all resilient threats. Huntmaster, Domri, Resto, Avenger and Mortars all act as Pseudo removal. Township, WolfRun, Silverheart give me reach.
Because I am infatuated with Wolfir Avenger (that's the card in Boros Reckoner's place). He gives me just as good a control over aggro, better control vs fatties, and is more durable vs control. He's worse vs red burn though.
Wolfir Avenger is a very interesting prospect. I've heard people say they like his flash, and I can see why. I do think Reckoner is just too good, especially with Domri's fight ability he gets pretty nuts.
I just did 6 games of testing Naya Humans Blitz vs Naya Mid and Selesnya Charm was fantastic. Not only did the Charm hit Champs and other creatures buffed with Growth/Ghor, but in games where I wasn't able to Pilgrim into a 3 drop it flashed in a 2/2 Knight chump to buy some time and kill a Mauler.
I think Selesnya Charm is in good position right now, not only for chumping hyper aggro but for Reanimator, Naya, Jund, Wolf Run, and Hammer decks running Bloodrush pumps. Kills Obzedat, AoS, Thundermaw, Tusk, Olivia (pumped), Griz.. It's a serious candidate as a 3-of main going into scg open. Hell, even trampling Thragtusk and Smiters through chumps is good, and that's the least relevant part of the spell if your maining it for Knights vs a large aggro field.
Definitely not a fan of Boros Charm main. Mostly I just want it to make 1 creature Indestructible to survive combat and Faith's Shield does that better and does more. Heck, Ghor Clan is better for that. Boros Charm is for Verdict and that's about it for me. In a Midrange punch out I'm always bigger. That's why I play Naya.
Thanks for the stats magicmerl. Given those numbers I feel ok dropping from 27 to 26 creatures. I had set a bar, because you have to set one somewhere, and had already broke it dipping below 28. No biggie I guess.
I think Selesnya Charm is in good position right now, not only for chumping hyper aggro but for Reanimator, Naya, Jund, Wolf Run, and Hammer decks running Bloodrush pumps. Kills Obzedat, AoS, Thundermaw, Tusk, Olivia (pumped), Griz.. It's a serious candidate as a 3-of main going into scg open. Hell, even trampling Thragtusk and Smiters through chumps is good, and that's the least relevant part of the spell if your maining it for Knights vs a large aggro field.
Yeah, Selesnya Charm MD has a LOT of give and play to it, but it's also just a 2 mana instant with one-time use. Something to be aware of, for certain.
Thanks for the stats magicmerl. Given those numbers I feel ok dropping from 27 to 26 creatures. I had set a bar, because you have to set one somewhere, and had already broke it dipping below 28. No biggie I guess.
I feel like if you're playing below 28 creatures, Domri might as well just be small Garruk, as the creatures you're going to be getting off Domri are going to be less frequent than just making a 2/2 or 1/1 Deathtouch.
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"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
Honestly, Planeswalkers and Nighthawk are even less relevant to me than Verdict.
And while it can do great damage with hasted flyers, to land 10 to the face with Thundermaw you have to:
A) Have 7 mana
B) Have Thundermaw and a Charm in hand
While this isn't a stretch, it's pretty situational.
I feel like if you're playing below 28 creatures, Domri might as well just be small Garruk, as the creatures you're going to be getting off Domri are going to be less frequent than just making a 2/2 or 1/1 Deathtouch.
Little Garruk is decent against aggro, but when I'm matched against him and piloting midrange or control, I largely ignore him.
Domri on the other hand is bad for mid (fight) and bad for control (card advantage).
When a spell is relevant against 2 archetypes, I try to run it. (This is why I run Thalia)
How have the Avengers worked out for you? Like you, I'm infatuated with them but haven't found a build that they really rock in. I had been debating getting a set of Boros Reckoners, and probably still will, but if Avengers work, I wouldn't mind sticking them in
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I forget it's forests only, been a while since I've used them. I think maybe I'll drop 2 of them for a healer and spear. Having said that, I completely forgot that Boros Reckoner was a card and I might switch out the healers for reckoners, we'll see how the mana is.
**EDIT** After some goldfishing, I've changed the list to the following as I wasn't liking the bonfire, but I still wanted a big burn spell to finish guys off or take out bigger threats, so I'm going to try out Aurelia's Fury.
1x Arbor Elf
4x Farseek
3x Angel of Serenity
1x Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
1x Aurelia, the Warleader
4x Loxodon Smiter
4x Boros Reckoner
4x Thragtusk
4x Restoration Angel
3x Searing Spear
1x Collective Blessing
4x Temple Garden
4x Stomping Ground
2x Sacred Foundry
4x Sunpetal Grove
4x Rootbound Crag
2x Clifftop Retreat
2x Kessig Wolf run
2x Cavern of Souls
2x Trostani
1x Rhox Faithmender
3x Purify the Grave
2x Selesnya Charm
2x Acidic Slime
1x Collective Blessing
2x Garruk, Primal Hunter
2x Witchbane Orb
4 Temple Garden
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Clifftop Retreat
3 Rootbound Crag
3 Sunpetal Grove
2 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Gyre Sage
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Restoration Angel
3 Thragtusk
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Aurelia, the Warleader
2 Angel of Serenity
4 Domri Rade
1 Collective Blessing
Thalias were originally Burning-Tree Emissaries, but after realizing I'm not aggroing them out (I'm just gumming up the board with larger guys, until I can alpha/Angel them out), I realized Thalia was exactly what I wanted. All of my noncreature spells can use the mana that Gyre Sage creates to pay for them (including Blessing) and the rest of the deck is creatures and lands, so there's a nice theoretical synergy there. She also has the obvious bonus of delaying a sweeper by a turn, and being a thorn for the rest of the game.
I've also been impressed by Domri Rade's abilities to just completely open a game up if you're able to keep him around for more than one activation, hence why I'm so fixated on playing that card. I've made a few emblems too, which have obviously won the game once I controlled one.
Also, Cavern and Blessing are experiments, but I did need Cavern to cast a Angel of Serenity for the game once, and Collective Blessing was an interesting "Overrun".
Next step: I feel like -1 Domri, -1 Blessing, +2 Garruk, Primal Hunter might be the next evolution for me to try, as I do want Garruk for his "Harmonize".
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
Fair enough. Care to sketch out what you think will be the best case and average scenarios with Gyre Sage?
Both of these are decent and serve the same purpose (to timewalk your opponent relative to you. I would switch the numbers from 4-3 to 3-4 though, since Thalia is legendary.
Yeah, Domri is the nuts. Card draw and removal in the same neat package.
I have 5 'flex' slots in my land slots for cards like Cavern, Wolf Run and Township. Cavern is pretty bad unless you are playing blue, and then it's pretty awesome. So it's metagame dependant. I like it as a two of.
I have Collective Blessing as a SB card in the mirror, and it's *very* good in that role (particularly with mana dorks.....).
Garruk is also awesome. No arguement there. It's hard to explain the feeling of casting him when there is a Thragtusk already in play.
Best case scenario: T2 Gyre Sage, T3 Thalia, attack 2 (or block 2/x's), T4 Reckoner + Smiter, T5 Aurelia
Average scenario: T2 Sage, T3 anything, attack for 2, T4 Thrag/Resto/Hellkite.
I've had a bit of a snag trying to cast 2 spells on T3 with Thalia, due to the "tax" she enforces. Ideally, we'd like to go T2 Sage, T3 Thalia + Farseek, but that's not possible. T2 Farseek, T3 Sage + Thalia is VERY strong, however, so be aware that *that* is the correct sequencing.
As I said before, I love that guy. He does things that very few cards can simulate, let alone do all three. SO glad I paid $40 for 3 (one foil, two regular) at the prerelease.
As far as these lands go: I don't think I want anything other than 2 Wolf Run in the MD, though I would appreciate Cavern/Township/Ghost Quarter in situations. I had Township for a while in an aggro variant I had, then I switched over to Mikaeus, the Lunarch and it was much more effective at that effect. (I hope I didn't overuse "effect" there...) Ghost Quarter's effect I got from Acidic Slime in the board, so I no longer want those. This leaves Cavern to be relegated to the board, but I'm not sure I want them.
Yep, I'm debating this at the moment, but I need to figure out the MD definitively before tuning the board, I feel.
I used to play Jund pre-GTC. I'm VERY familiar with that feeling ;).
With all of that addressed: a reworking.
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple Garden
3 Clifftop Retreat
3 Rootbound Crag
3 Sunpetal Grove
2 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Gyre Sage
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Restoration Angel
2 Acidic Slime
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Thragtusk
2 Aurelia, the Warleader
2 Angel of Serenity
4 Farseek
This is after about 10 games today with the previous list. Having less Thalias feels better, and despite being 23 lands with 10 spells that cost 5+, it is pretty reliable. The one caution is to only keep a 2 lander if you have at least 2 spells to cast for 2 mana. After 3 draw phases, if you haven't drawn a land or a Farseek (which should be in the opener) off of two lands, you've probably lost, but that's true of pretty much any deck.
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"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
I just don't like Thalia in a Domri-centric build. It's literally anti-synergy...you really really want to have Domri online ASAP, and Thalia stops that cold. I understand it "de-ramps" your opponents, but there's no reason to MB thalia, especially when you're so close to the Saito Naya build. Flinthoof & Burning tree just serve Gyre Sage so much better than Thalia.
I understand the hands that you don't have Domri, or don't have ramp, it's not a bad card, but it's not that stellar against aggro, especially naya blitz (and no ramp or no domri is a terrible hand anyway). I'd prefer the consistency of Saito's build if I were looking to abuse Domri. I find a more traditional Naya Midrange build to be stronger, though.
I think that the Farseeks go a long way towards helping you there.
Your list is pretty solid now. All your 2-ofs are a little random (and some could easily be cut for Garruk) but that seems more like a personal preference thing.
Domri is awesome, but it's hardly Domri-centric. The deck just happens to have hardly any spells. In the current creature oriented meta you want to deploy a threat first anyway.
I think his list is drifting more towards a Naya midrange deck.
4 Domri's, 4 Farseek and a bunch of creatures SHOULD be Domri centric. If it's not, you're doing it wrong.
Saito's Naya build was a midrange deck, just a weaker version of Naya Midrange. I don't see how dropping a land, dropping some 2 drops, adding in Farseek and a bunch of big finishers helped out the build. 2 Aurelia, 2 Thundermaw, 2 Angel of Serenity with 23 land is just bad. Especially the two AoS, those will never be hard casted.
Aggro just runs that list over, and it did nothing to shore up the match against Junk (outside of two pipe-dream AoS). If this truly is competitive deck building, then we should be honest about the potential of the deck.
Managed to get some testing in last night. I felt like I had to mulligan a lot, but I'm not sure if I was just getting unlucky getting double Kessig in hand 3 games out of the 10 or so games played.
I've also had to replace the Reckoners with Healers as the healers I was gonna lend fell through, so we'll see how that goes.
Gisela has been a beast and I'm loving her in the deck. I've swapped one wolf run for a slayers stronghold and I'm loving it, it gives the deck so much late game reach.
Aurelia's Fury has been very good too and I'm not really missing bonfire at all.
Acidic Slimes are just fantastic and I actually feel like I would like one main board, but I'm not sure what I would take out, maybe I could drop 1 healer.
Collective Blessing has yet to come into play, but hopefully I'll get some more testing in tonight. The one in the side did become a Assemble the Legion, which has been a all star.
We'll see how testing goes this evening again.
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple Garden
3 Clifftop Retreat
3 Rootbound Crag
3 Sunpetal Grove
2 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Gyre Sage
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Restoration Angel
3 Thragtusk
2 Acidic Slime
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Aurelia, the Warleader
3 Domri Rade
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Based on input. Angel was occasionally cast MD, but usually, when you can surprise an opponent with one out of the board, it's pretty excellent. Flames of the Firebrand was just Bonfire originally, but this seemed MUCH more reliable. The SB is really where my questions lie, as I feel like it's quite thin, but at the same time, there's lots of things to cast against everyone.
Also, Thalias are generally the first thing I board out, if I know they aren't doing much more than being a 2/1 First Striker. That said, I did just play a match where I had to cast a 3 mana Farseek, and a 4 mana Domri (twice, with Domri). Won both of those games, though it was due more to my opponent mulling to 5 than out playing him. (Remember, being honest about the testing makes it more credible.)
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
I still think you need to do more against aggro g1. If your opponent is on a burning tree draw you have nothing against that.
I would
-1 Domri
-2 Acidic Slime
+3 Mizzium Mortars
I wouldn't MB Thalia, but that's your preference. You absolutely need some removal, though, and mizzium has the benefit of being a board wipe late game. You need to be able to answer Champion -> Burning Tree -> another human -> front line medic, and Domri's fight won't do that. Boros & loxodon also do nothing against bigger Jund & B/R aggro lists that will be flying over you after t3.
IMO, domri becomes incredibly strong when you can drop Loxodon and Boros t2, but if you're not running dorks you can't do that. I also think smaller Garruk is a better MB card, particularly since you are weaker to aggro's opening draws. Serves as pseudo removal and provides chumps.
I've had a lot of success actually, by doing the following:
-2 Garruk, -1 Farseek, -2 Slime
+3 Flames, +2 Angel
It seems unlikely, I know. But generally, I can force trades across the board (provided they don't play 4 Rampager, which is SERIOUS business), then take over with my Angel plan. Collective Blessing has been pretty slow, but I haven't played a midrange mirror yet, either.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
Thundermaw, Aurelia, and Wolf Run go over the top, so it just felt like win more, especially when Bonfire and Fury are at our disposal to help end games.
A spear however is instant speed, and has the added benefit of stopping humaninator combo.
I'm still not a fan of removal spells in a Domri build mainboard. The only deck it's vital for is Humans, and that's only if they get their God hand and they're on the play. Too niche.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
Mizzium has the benefit of being incredibly versatile. Saito ran it as a 4-of in his midrange builds, and since it's been floating b/w 2 and 4. I personally am not a fan on Bonfire in Naya Midrange, it's too finicky, and we have too many things to cast from the hand. It's better in Jund Midrange.
Neither Thundermaw, Aurelia nor Kessig Wolf Run are single-target removal spells OR board wipes, so I don't see how they compare.
Aurelia's Fury is also not going to be a spell that's relevant early game, and is more "Win More" than Mizzium or any of our creatures. The name of the game in Naya is to continually out value our opponents, and being able to pick off their small creatures early game, and wipe the entire board late game makes for a very powerful card with our creature suite. If we have a t2 loxodon or smiter, we get to save it to blow them out. If we don't, we save our ass from being destroyed in 3 turns by aggro. It's not just Humans where it's valuable, against Expirement Jund or Zombies it can buy us the turn we need to stabilize.
Spear will *barely* answer the Reanimator combo, at best stalling for a turn. The one mana exile w/ flashback does a better job than spear, and it's also at instant speed. It's a fine answer to aggro's early creature, but lacks the ability to blow them out late game. I keep my spears in the side for aggro, but wouldn't be caught dead without Mizzium MB.
It's sad because I do love bonfire, but I have been more disappointed with that card this format than I ever have. I cast it 90% from my hand, and have had to not miracle on more than one occasion, either because of an opposing Reckoner, or because I just needed to make a different play. It would show up t2, or in my opening hand, and it just dawned on me that the card should be Mizzium.
Saito needed it more I think. His build needs to get in some early beats from Boar/Sage/BTE, so removing a creature, particularly road blocks with big butts like Smiter and Resto is more crucial to his tempo. I'm not sure Domri builds with more heft in the ranks need this.
"Going over the top" essentially means, "I don't care what you cast out on the battlefield, I'm coming for lethal."
These builds go bigger. The slapping fat onto the table every turn and saying "answer me now or die" approach is in lieu of wipes/removal.
I disagree here. Fury and Bonfire are meant to be late game finishers, so naturally they are not relevant in the early game any more than Aurelia or Thundermaw is. As for "out value", while value is a central theme here I think that's more Jund than us. Domri -> Thundermaw -> Aurelia style builds want to out power. The exodus from value into power explains why Huntmaster is being dropped from some of the newer Naya lists. As for fearing aggro, I just don't. An opening Smiter or Reckoner is fine, especially when accelerating into a turn 4 Thragtusk. If that opening isn't possible, the alternative is Thalia which has been great too. Her first strike and prison on Spears and Growth is extremely relevant.
Certainly Purify the Grave is better out of board, but I was suggesting Spear mainboard over Mortars to have a leg up in game 1 against Humanimator while simultaneouly having a tool against hyper aggro and opposing Reckoners at instant speed. Buying one turn against combo is sometimes all you'll need.
I think Mortars over Bonfire is the right call. I find Bonfire clunky as well and dislike it. It was great during that time frame when birds were legal and we also needed those last points of damage to close games. Now, x8 dorks + Gavony isn't viable and we have Aurelia at the top end to close.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
4 Avacyn's Pilgram
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Thragtusk
4 Restoration Angel
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Loxodon Smiter
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Aurelia, the Warleader
Not Dudes
3 Farseek
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Domri Rade
1 Garruk Relentless
Land
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple Garden
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Rootbound Crag
3 Sunpetal Grove
3 Clifftop Retreat
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Assemble the Legion
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ground Seal
3 Centaur Healer
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Blasphemous Act
2 Boros Charm
2 Selesnya Charm
This is where I'm sitting right now for next weekends PTQ.
Any thoughts are welcome. I want a strong midgame, and the ability to hang in early game.
Going into a relatively unknown Meta, would expect a lot of Blitz Agro and Reanimator, possibly a few other Mid Range decks.
Sideboard may not be exact, running it from Memory.
Things I wouldn't mind finding room for Main deck are Selesnya Charms, but I detest lowering the creature count anymore.
Any good plans vs. Reanimator would be appreciated as well. Purify's seem to want a spot in the board maybe? I seem to do Ok vs it if it plays fair (No Unburial Rites) but when it doesn't it's really tough pairing.
I wouldn't recommend running Naya Midrange w/o Thundermaw, Aurelia or KWR, so they really aren't relevant in a Mizzium vs other spells conversation. In my mind they are staples. They finish the game, and Mizzium is really more about getting us there. Def agree they are the cards that give us our real power.
The deck in general needs removal. If a person prefers Spears over Mizzium, that's fine. If someone is leaning towards running Bonfire, I'd advise mizzium at this point. But running no removal is just asking for a bad time.
A "Domri build" needs cards like BTE and Flinthoof to give it that punch it needs. Thalia doesn't do this...and then hurts you from playing Domri. If one wants to build a deck around Domri, I would recommend focusing on getting as many creatures as I possibly could on the battlefield before t3. As soon as you start adding heft, there's no reason to keep domri at 4, when Relentless and PH are arguably more impactful on the board. The amount of resources they need to get around the first Domri should be enough to close out the game...needing a second or third just isn't the reality. Once you starting running a bigger Naya build, I think Domri at 2 is appropriate.
I keep mentioning Saito only because he was so impactful on the meta when GTC first dropped. I actually don't agree with his early build, nor Keibler's, but they are great starting points and have gotten the deck to where it's at now.
I'm not a fan of Fury really. I've had it played against me to little effect, and I've played it and never thought "THIS will win me the game". It's nice out of the board against control, maybe, but even then a cavern naming human has been about all I've need to beat blue at this point.
Not fearing aggro is your prerogative, but aggro decks have placed consistently higher than Naya Midrange in every tournament. I don't "fear" any deck, but I am certainly prepared to face the meta, which at this point is Reanimator and Aggro. If your build is not running removal (not saying "your" as any one person, just a player in general) you're going to get smashed on. There are times you'll get smashed on just due to their draws, so why increase your chance of pain. The only reason I prefer Mizzium at this point is it serves as early removal, which we need, and takes over for Bonfire late game, in my mind "saving me spots." I can run 3-4 Mizzium and know exactly what I'm getting every game.
Aurelia is far from a staple. Looking back at SCG Open top 16s this month, the 12th place Naya list from Orlando played Angel of Serenity over Aurelia. The 13th place list from D.C. topped out at Thundermaw Hellkite. My evaluation posits that lists topping out at Aurelia are not looking for removal, they are looking to curve out and as such smash for the win, much as the 1st place list back in Cincinnati did which didn't run any removal.
And for all intents and purposes, Domri (second ability), Resto (flash block), and Bonfire/Fury (mana dump) all serve as removal.
Naya midrange without aggro hate is still the best established deck out there against aggro game 1. Making special accommodations to face an aggro dominant field is viable, but not necessary.
And a Domri build doesn't need BTE and Flinthoof just because Saito's deck ran them. I don't know about you, but I'm here in hopes to help pioneer and pilot to results a true midrange Domri build. Emphatic statements like that stifle innovation.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
I also said "in my mind" those cards are staples. From my experience with the deck, I would not run Naya without them. I preference most of my statements like this with IMO, or something else relevant to my playing experience. I don't make staple assumptions for other players.
Running 4 Domri's means you want to run as many creatures as an aggro deck. If you're trying to pioneer a build that runs 4 Domri's in our midrange shell, I'm not sure you'll need to do much work. Drop a Relentless and a removal spell, and you've freed up spots for 2 more Domri's. At this point in the meta I don't see the point, though.
t3 "maybe" removal, t4 flash blocking and bonfire/fury from hand is not removal.
The reason a build focused heavy on creatures and Domri "needs" BTE and Flinthoof is because these cards allow you to not only nut out your opponent, but allow you to make full use of Domri. With these cards online t2, you have free reign to fight or peek. The only other way you can do this is if you open t1 dork, t2 smiter/reckoner. Without either dorks, or BTE, running Gyre Sage and Thalia isn't a good enough shell to make full use of Domri t3. And if your plan is to not drop Domri t3, that's playing the card wrong IMO. As one of the strongest PW's in the colors, you want him online ASAP.
There's a difference b/w innovation and running cards that don't foster synergy. In a competitive environment we need to be realistic about what our decks do and what we're going to be facing.
Well, I dunno about win by T3, but I agree that Thragtusk is often a little slow and a little irrelevant vs aggro.
I'm currently running 12 spells / 23 lands / 25 creatures in my list. A Domri 'build around' is just code for maximising your chances to draw off his +1. My list is a little creature light at 25, giving me a 41 2/3 % change of hitting a creature each time. Every addition creature I add gives me another 1 2/3 %. That means that for every 60 times I activate it, I will get one more card draw. That's a marginal enough advantage that I'm ok with running better spells instead of showhorning creatures in to make the deck 'Domri centric'.
Actually, I find that 3 power of flash guys really does count as removal. I love it so much that I am running Wolfir Avenger (which is a better removal spell than Boros Reckoner vs aggro, since it can more consistently eat a blocker and stop a 7/7 Champion of the Parish or similar, and the regeneration makes it more durable vs removal, particularly that of control.
Look, I'm not defending Gyre Sage or Thalia as choices (I have found Thalia to be too weak, and think Gyre Sage is just way less consistent than Pilgrim). But I think you're overstating the importance of *needing* to play a 2 drop then Domri. I'm perfectly happy to start with Pilgrim - Smiter. But if that doesn't happen, Farseek - Huntmaster - Resto/Township is a pretty good sequence of events vs most decks as well, that tend to be pretty hard to disrupt.
I'm not sure I understand what point you are trying to make with your first sentence.
TBH I'm not a fan of the cards being cut or the cards being added in. I tested both charms and they didn't like me much.
For reference this is my current list:
2 Gavony Township
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Sacred Foundry
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple Garden
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Wolfir Avenger
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Restoration Angel
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Thragtusk
2 Wolfir Silverheart
4 Domri Rade
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Centaur Healer
4 Rest in Peace
2 Triumph of Ferocity
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Selesnya Charm
2 Angel of Serenity
1 Collective Blessing
My deck is positioned to be the best deck with 3 power guys in it. Garruk, Thragtusk and Avenger are all resilient threats. Huntmaster, Domri, Resto, Avenger and Mortars all act as Pseudo removal. Township, WolfRun, Silverheart give me reach.
I just did 6 games of testing Naya Humans Blitz vs Naya Mid and Selesnya Charm was fantastic. Not only did the Charm hit Champs and other creatures buffed with Growth/Ghor, but in games where I wasn't able to Pilgrim into a 3 drop it flashed in a 2/2 Knight chump to buy some time and kill a Mauler.
I think Selesnya Charm is in good position right now, not only for chumping hyper aggro but for Reanimator, Naya, Jund, Wolf Run, and Hammer decks running Bloodrush pumps. Kills Obzedat, AoS, Thundermaw, Tusk, Olivia (pumped), Griz.. It's a serious candidate as a 3-of main going into scg open. Hell, even trampling Thragtusk and Smiters through chumps is good, and that's the least relevant part of the spell if your maining it for Knights vs a large aggro field.
Definitely not a fan of Boros Charm main. Mostly I just want it to make 1 creature Indestructible to survive combat and Faith's Shield does that better and does more. Heck, Ghor Clan is better for that. Boros Charm is for Verdict and that's about it for me. In a Midrange punch out I'm always bigger. That's why I play Naya.
Thanks for the stats magicmerl. Given those numbers I feel ok dropping from 27 to 26 creatures. I had set a bar, because you have to set one somewhere, and had already broke it dipping below 28. No biggie I guess.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
Yeah, Selesnya Charm MD has a LOT of give and play to it, but it's also just a 2 mana instant with one-time use. Something to be aware of, for certain.
I feel like if you're playing below 28 creatures, Domri might as well just be small Garruk, as the creatures you're going to be getting off Domri are going to be less frequent than just making a 2/2 or 1/1 Deathtouch.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
And while it can do great damage with hasted flyers, to land 10 to the face with Thundermaw you have to:
A) Have 7 mana
B) Have Thundermaw and a Charm in hand
While this isn't a stretch, it's pretty situational.
Little Garruk is decent against aggro, but when I'm matched against him and piloting midrange or control, I largely ignore him.
Domri on the other hand is bad for mid (fight) and bad for control (card advantage).
When a spell is relevant against 2 archetypes, I try to run it. (This is why I run Thalia)
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
Cool story bro.
I've been to Magical Christmas Land once too.
Dig in Spoiler
So who's man'in the velvet rope on these competitive forums anyways?
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
How have the Avengers worked out for you? Like you, I'm infatuated with them but haven't found a build that they really rock in. I had been debating getting a set of Boros Reckoners, and probably still will, but if Avengers work, I wouldn't mind sticking them in