MTG Salvation

Quote from TheRogue

thragtusk is the new tarmogoyf, (in its "larval" price range right now.) get use to it!

its very useful in all formats.

standard- read all the posts before this post!
modern-no experience here
turn 3/4 thragtusk in legacy- "go on swords it to death and give me a 3/3 and 5 more life!"
(cept vintage, even if you turn 2 a thragtusk, won't stop turn 4 blightsteel colossus!)

Haha, no. Thragtusk is nowhere near the power level of Tarmogoyf, and sees absolutely no play in any eternal format, because it is far too slow and is a 5 drop that does not win you the game (basic criteria for playing cards that cost more then 3-4 in those formats).

Quote from Evenoire

Agreed. If wizards had replinted mana leak, counterspell, or some decent counter card this guy would be DOA. I would love if somebody tried to play thraggy against my Countertop deck. Or my Dreadstill deck. Or stasis xD.

(edited in after original post).

Quote from JackknifedJuggernaut

Haha, no. Thragtusk is nowhere near the power level of Tarmogoyf, and sees absolutely no play in any eternal format, because it is far too slow and is a 5 drop that does not win you the game (basic criteria for playing cards that cost more then 3-4 in those formats).

challenge accepted!

I think the fact that Thragtusk sees play in even the Epic Experiment deck ought to say something. I'd have to agree with previous posters that the lifegain amount is a bit too much coupled with the fact that its going to gain you even more life (via blocking twice) and the only real profitable way to deal with the darn thing is countering it. So should everyone just be stuffing 4 syncopates/dissipate in their deck just to beat thraggy?

Quote from 42Osiris

I think the fact that Thragtusk sees play in even the Epic Experiment deck ought to say something. I'd have to agree with previous posters that the lifegain amount is a bit too much coupled with the fact that its going to gain you even more life (via blocking twice) and the only real profitable way to deal with the darn thing is countering it. So should everyone just be stuffing 4 syncopates/dissipate in their deck just to beat thraggy?

yes. this would stop the initial playing of thrag in the turn 5 range. however as mana bases increase and the game drags on, there is room for syncopates to become far less effective!

edit-- over looked dissipate in your post. ya thats a good answer too.

Thragtusk is good in standard because the card pool is small and he fits well in certain deck archetypes at the moment. Other than that, the card isn't that great. In any other format how does he even compare for example to Baneslayer? Baneslayer makes Thragtusk look like a junk common.

This is the best Troll thread ever.. I love it. Seriously it's like a guilty pleasure the way some people watch Jerry Springer. In some cases I can't tell if people are actually being serious or just trying to perpetuate the machine. I mean hope they aren't serious.

I think Thragtusk is about as good as Tarmogoyf was in it's standard life (maybe even better). But that's about where the comparison ends. This is a Standard conversation. Even bringing up Vintage beyond irrelevant is good comedy. Mind you I suppose given the deathgrip JtMS has on the non-shop portion of the metagame having a creature you can't just bounce to deal with has some benefits. But then again Blightsteel you T2 makes that pretty mute. Similarly in Legacy. It would take quite an interesting Modern format for it to see play. Anyway thanks for the great reading.

Thragtusk is such an interesting card in that it fills so many purposes. It's a staller for go late game plans and a value sync for midrange plans. Really it's designed for controlling go bigger decks so is it surprising to see it go there. The real problem is that it gives no one an edge. If it did we wouldn't be having this discussion. There'd just be Thragtusk.dec. Instead we have tons of them.

My favorite part of all this is what it teaches us about the game. Like it's even better than JtMS at teaching us how removal isn't everything since it's so much more obvious and less devastating to the gamestate; how the game isn't just about singular threats and answers. It feels that way to novices but you get to a point where you realize that just cause something is unanswerable doesn't mean it's a problem. It might be one symptom but it isn't the end all be all. When something like this develops in the metagame it pushes outside thinking. This leads to deeper understanding of other elements that are less focused on. Tempo/Timing is one that really comes to mind. I think a lot of Zvi Mowshowitz writing is very key on this subject but many end their early magic education with the Philosophy of Fire and Who's the Beatdown? Even looking at Adrian Sullivans breakdown of Archetypes only really hits the surface. Tempo and Timing is something present in all magic decks not just Tempo decks. Part of role appraisal comes down to not just Chapin's break down of stages of the game but a more subtle battle for taking initiative. What I love about Thragtusk is while it over time can cause these reversals even landing it causes a decent life swing, it takes more work to actually in itself take over. This mix of on the surface power/value versus the real potential in it's timing makes this card such an interesting one. Even the 3 toughness is just right. The card is slow, it's grindy, yet it's very good. It forces us to expand our minds and conceptions of Magic. Or I guess come on this thread publicly expose our inability to go beyond our base ideas.

I guess I've had a different experience in my local shop meta than you guys have. The guy who plays Thragtusk also plays Huntmaster and Wolfir Silverheart and Rancor and Kessig Wolf Run. So just saying that Thragtusk is something you can ignore is a joke when you can give it X/0 and Trample with Wolf Run or 2/0 Trample with Rancors(Usually multiple by that point). And what, what are you going to do? Ultimate Price it? Auger Spree it? Wow. Like that did anything. They just put all that stuff on the token they get. Or in my experience they lucksack 9 times out of 10 into another Thragtusk or a Bonfire to blow you out.

Thragtusk is by far and large the single most broken card in T2...WHEN you take into consideration everything that plays with it. The fact of the matter is the card should have said died on the token part and not leaves play. If that was the case, the card would be fine. I could deal with 5 life for a 5/3 that gets a 3/3 when it dies. You could just play Annihilating Fire at that point, or double Pillar of Flame and still get by. But no, you can't do that. You can't even O-ring it and get value. There is no. Single. Way. To. Deal. With. This. Card. ADVANTAGEOUSLY.

I'd also be fine if in Gatecrash they print some kind of card like Flames of the Blood Hand. That would fix things as well.

Quote from AndrewGoat

I guess I've had a different experience in my local shop meta than you guys have. The guy who plays Thragtusk also plays Huntmaster and Wolfir Silverheart and Rancor and Kessig Wolf Run. So just saying that Thragtusk is something you can ignore is a joke when you can give it X/0 and Trample with Wolf Run or 2/0 Trample with Rancors(Usually multiple by that point). And what, what are you going to do? Ultimate Price it? Auger Spree it? Wow. Like that did anything. They just put all that stuff on the token they get. Or in my experience they lucksack 9 times out of 10 into another Thragtusk or a Bonfire to blow you out.

Thragtusk is by far and large the single most broken card in T2...WHEN you take into consideration everything that plays with it. The fact of the matter is the card should have said died on the token part and not leaves play. If that was the case, the card would be fine. I could deal with 5 life for a 5/3 that gets a 3/3 when it dies. You could just play Annihilating Fire at that point, or double Pillar of Flame and still get by. But no, you can't do that. You can't even O-ring it and get value. There is no. Single. Way. To. Deal. With. This. Card. ADVANTAGEOUSLY.

I'd also be fine if in Gatecrash they print some kind of card like Flames of the Blood Hand. That would fix things as well.

People in my local meta do plenty of creative things to play around/through Thragtusk. The card is strong, but not broken, noit even close.

Quote from colesy4971

The most creative thing I can do is just spectral flight a Geist of Saint Traft.

Yeah, screw you Thragtusk and your 5 lifegain.

Yep. My point exactly. Magic's current T2 answers to broken creatures is play a more broken creature. Not a good spell or anything. Just a more broken creature. What a joke.

Attack the decks that use Thragtusk from different angles. Use milling, since it doesnt attack life totals, start packing dissipates in your control decks, if your damage based, try and outrace it or use burn spells to do more damage than they gain life. Thragtusk only dominates because players allow him too. He's a good card, but lets be serious, decks can be built to have alternate strategies of lines of play that can out maneuver it. But, it does require practice, and reevaluating cards and choices.

Quote from razefire

Attack the decks that use Thragtusk from different angles. Use milling, since it doesnt attack life totals, start packing dissipates in your control decks, if your damage based, try and outrace it or use burn spells to do more damage than they gain life. Thragtusk only dominates because players allow him too. He's a good card, but lets be serious, decks can be built to have alternate strategies of lines of play that can out maneuver it. But, it does require practice, and reevaluating cards and choices.

I understand this, but what it does essentially is destroy an entire archetype, that being aggro, or quick aggro decks. You have to take a quick aggro deck, like R/B Zombies for example, and make it a stupid midrange control deck. The card is so busted it completely destroys the viability of entire strategies and decks.

There's something wrong there, don't you think? Or maybe we should just all play midrange fatty wars, which is apparently what Wizards wants us to do.

GoST is definitely broken.

I don't know about you guys... but i compare it to Kitchen Finks, but a 5 mana version.

why?

It's good for the same reasons as Kitchen Finks.

That said, while it is more expensive, it is also slightly better, being able to survive all forms of removal and net gains more life (one initially and if it gets unummoned more-so)

Thragtusk is card advantage. That's all he is.

2 blockers, even after a field clear. Totally stops aggressive decks from attacking or, at the very least, makes it hard to attack without risking losing a creature... which is important since Thragtusk himself isn't likely to die from other creatures in the format.

Comparing Tragtusk to Goyf, even when we are ignoring the fact that it is a cross format comparison, is *still* folly. Tarmagoyf is an aggressive creature... thragtusk buys you 3+ turns. You cannot compare the 2 with much success.

Thragtusk is a good card and deserves to see play int he decks where it does... but it isn't the most powerful card WotC has ever printed. It's just okay.

...

Thank goodness they chose to leave trample off of him, though.

Sigh. I didn't say it can't be beaten. Explain to me how a 6 power hexproof for 3 is reasonable. That's my point.

These cards aren't "broken", are just stupidly and unnecessarily powerful. Mistakes.

Thragtusk, Geist of Saint Traft, Thundermaw Hellkite, Sublime Archangel, the Titans...

If they had just made him 2GGG or even 3GG, then he'd be much less splashable and people would be complaining a lot less.

Quote from colesy4971

It's reasonable because:

1. It's legendary, so only one copy can exist at a time on the field, and therefore any cloning or your opponent playing their own traft kills it.

2. The card itself makes a 4/4 angel but has a 2/2 body itself. Unsupported it's just going to swing and die to basically everything.

3. It's a 2/2 on turn 3 by then which a slower deck will have mana for a board sweeper so it just dies and then you're back to having an empty board.

Thragtusk on the other hand ignores point 1, doesn't care about point 2 since it just replaces itself when it dies and doesn't care about point 3 either since you can even terminus and the thragtusk player now has 3 power on the board whereas if you didn't play your own, you don't.

That was actually painful to read.

Quote from Denegaar

These cards aren't "broken", are just stupidly and unnecessarily powerful. Mistakes.

Thragtusk, Geist of Saint Traft, Thundermaw Hellkite, Sublime Archangel, the Titans...

...

The titans were reprinted... so, they aren't mistakes. And they only felt that way because they defined 6 drops. They literally made you ask the question "should I play this if I can have a titan" "does this serve a role a titan doesn't fill better"

They were powerful, but they were not on accident. Also remember Frost Titan in particular went through a hell of a lot of balancing where as Primeval Titan didn't go through as much.

Delver of Secrets was a mistake
Snapcaster Mage was a mistake
---these were both admitted mistakes and there were a lot of standard balancing cards put into play to deal with it---
Geist of Saint Traft... is not a mistake.
Thundermaw Hellkite... is not a mistake.


Thragtusk, of the cards you listed, is the only one that is questionable to me, because he doesn't seem like the value of a rare. With absolute redundancy and splash-ability with high power and relatively low mana cost it does feel very much like a mistake.

Just going to put this out there... Thragtusk doesn't win games... he just stops your opponents from doing so for the next few turns... most of the time.

Quote from LnGrrrR

If they had just made him 2GGG or even 3GG, then he'd be much less splashable and people would be complaining a lot less.

Probably not in a standard with Shock lands in tandem with check lands. Though, i do think your right that being more color intensive would have taken away *one* of the arguments.

seriously... "Bant" control? That is Azorius control + thragtusk, Farseek and MAYBE Centaur Healer or Selesnya Charm

Quote from zemanjaski

Sigh. I didn't say it can't be beaten. Explain to me how a 6 power hexproof for 3 is reasonable. That's my point.

The "Angel" is not hexproof.

No, I think that both Geist of Saint Traft and Thragtusk are both pretty OP. The thing about Thragtusk is that anyone can play it. Someone who just learned how to play Magic just yesterday can play it. Sure, on an empty field, anyone can play Geist of Saint Traft, but the point is that it is slightly tougher to play.

For example, someone playing Grixis Control can splash for Thragtusk because his friend tells him that Thraggy is good. It will not hurt his deck at all in 99% of the matches. Geist is obviously tougher to splash.

RDW will naturally have trouble with Geist of Saint Traft. With no Pyroclasm, no Slagstorm, or no other comparable card, you just have to cast a creature that can trade and hope that the opposing player hasn't drawn 1 of the 16 spells that will keep his Geist still attacking. Killing the Angel has no effect since it will be back again next turn and it will lead to card disadvantage. Only in really close games, does killing the Angel actually work and that is when you built enough of an advantage for it to work, by racing.

Other decks that cast value creatures like GW won't have as big a problem with Geist. From turn 2 on, Thalia, Centaur Healer, Restoration Angel, Thragtusk, will not have trouble with Geist. However, with Geist decks, they are built to get him through so there is always that chance when overextending, not drawing gas, not getting enough lands to play drops, or just misplaying.

Quote from colesy4971 »

...you could just, I dunno, answer it? Rather than trying to be a smartass?

I honestly gave your more respect than you gave the GoST pilot in your examples. My problem with them is that they all assume the GoST player is an idiot.

Quote from »

It's reasonable because:

1. It's legendary, so only one copy can exist at a time on the field, and therefore any cloning or your opponent playing their own traft kills it.

2. The card itself makes a 4/4 angel but has a 2/2 body itself. Unsupported it's just going to swing and die to basically everything.

3. It's a 2/2 on turn 3 by then which a slower deck will have mana for a board sweeper so it just dies and then you're back to having an empty board.

1. The legend rule is NOT an effective argument against being overpowered. While it does moderate the power of the card, that players are willing to still run four of them because they really really want to draw the card informs you how much of a drawback it is.

I admit that clones were an effective limit on GoST (and all legends by extension). How many decks could play clones last season? Other blue decks? What about everyone else? How about this season? Still just blue decks?

It is not a reasonable answer, nor is it a reasonable solution.

2. this is what I found painful. Find me a single GoST deck that isnt dedicating significant resources to ensure that GoST can attack. Maybe it is bounce (vapor snag, now azoirus charm and unsummon), maybe it is removal (gut shot, pillar of flame, detention sphere) or a buff (sword of war and peace, runechanter's pike, spectral flight). It is incredibly unrealistic to assume that you can just play a blocker to stop him.

Does it happen? Absolutely. But if it was happening all the time at will, GoST wouldnt see the levels of play that he does.

3. and this doesn't make a lot of sense. GoST is a killer against control decks. You get to ask a question ~ do you have the Supreme Verdict right now? If you don't, youre in a lot of trouble. Given it is standard to run Terminus instead, we now have to think about counterspells ~ it is incredibly difficult for a control deck to remove a GoST. If you have seen much competitive magic over the last 18 months, this much is obvious.

Then we get to consider lines of play like using vapor snag/unsummon to rebuy it.

While there is some truth in all your examples, they exach assume sub-optimal play by the GoST player. The card has been tested thousands of times in all of these examples and each instance can be easily overcome by an experienced player.

Quote from FoodChainGoblins »

The "Angel" is not hexproof.

Alright, you got me

Quote from zemanjaski

I honestly gave your more respect than you gave the GoST pilot in your examples. My problem with them is that they all assume the GoST player is an idiot.



1. The legend rule is NOT an effective argument against being overpowered. While it does moderate the power of the card, that players are willing to still run four of them because they really really want to draw the card informs you how much of a drawback it is.

I admit that clones were an effective limit on GoST (and all legends by extension). How many decks could play clones last season? Other blue decks? What about everyone else? How about this season? Still just blue decks?

It is not a reasonable answer, nor is it a reasonable solution.

2. this is what I found painful. Find me a single GoST deck that isnt dedicating significant resources to ensure that GoST can attack. Maybe it is bounce (vapor snag, now azoirus charm and unsummon), maybe it is removal (gut shot, pillar of flame, detention sphere) or a buff (sword of war and peace, runechanter's pike, spectral flight). It is incredibly unrealistic to assume that you can just play a blocker to stop him.

Does it happen? Absolutely. But if it was happening all the time at will, GoST wouldnt see the levels of play that he does.

3. and this doesn't make a lot of sense. GoST is a killer against control decks. You get to ask a question ~ do you have the Supreme Verdict right now? If you don't, youre in a lot of trouble. Given it is standard to run Terminus instead, we now have to think about counterspells ~ it is incredibly difficult for a control deck to remove a GoST. If you have seen much competitive magic over the last 18 months, this much is obvious.

Then we get to consider lines of play like using vapor snag/unsummon to rebuy it.

While there is some truth in all your examples, they exach assume sub-optimal play by the GoST player. The card has been tested thousands of times in all of these examples and each instance can be easily overcome by an experienced player.



Alright, you got me

Makes me wonder why Bant control is such a big deck and U/W giest tempo isn't nearly as big if giest decks are soooo good against everything.

Quote from Evenoire

Makes me wonder why Bant control is such a big deck and U/W giest tempo isn't nearly as big if giest decks are soooo good against everything.

UWr midrange is one of the top 3 decks of the format...

Quote from resum

UWr midrange is one of the top 3 decks of the format...

I forgot about the midrange version xD. Never mind. I just thought of UWr control

Quote from colesy4971

Phyrexian Metamorph? You know, the card that gave every freaking colour access to cloning? Decks could use it to run up to 8 of their best card or if the situation called for it like what I'm talking about just as a legend killer. Then there's Phantasmal Image which was just a complete pisstake, at 1U it was pretty much just kill GoST then carry on with your turn it cost that little to play.



I run W/U aggro right now and I run 4 spectral flight, 4 angel of jubilation and 4 silverblade paladin. Sure, it boosts the guy, but if by crazy chance I don't draw any of them then GoST just sits there or I just have to suicide him. If I draw a spectral flight, great, there's pretty much no coming back from that. Angel? Ok, it's a 3/3. By turn 4 I'm pretty sure my opponent will have a way to deal with that, even if it's just flash in Resto angel and block. Silverblade, well it doesn't make him any better against first strike (and my local meta has a ton of aggro). Even then these aren't the safest cards to play, say if the flight gets abrupt decay'd and then GoST just gets mauled, the silverblade dies turning him back in to a 2/2 (or even if he's unsummoned) or the angel gets killed/bounced then I'm back to a 2/2 bear that dies to everything.



If you don't have a verdict then you could have access to you either a keyrune to block with, topdeck an entreat/terminus, play a Jace to stall and take the damage down to 4 a turn or the whole flash in resto, block thing.

Now I'm not saying he's weak, that's a load of crap. When I've played against my friend's RDW I still can't get over the fact that they have to sit there nibbling at my life total while I can just drop a GoST, flight it, hit for 8 and then pair it with a silverblade next turn, hit for 12 and basically just kill them in two swings with one creature while they've had to play a whole load of dudes to get their damage through. But I mean you've said it yourself, the decks using it run ways to protect him which means it's a build-around card, unlike Thragtusk or titans where it's just HURRDURRR I PLAY THIS and then the longer it sticks you just go to value city by blinking the tusk with resto angel or with the titans all you do is ... attack. And Thragtusk has practically zero downsides once it sticks, if GoST gets killed you go oh crap, with tusk you can sit there happily knowing you gained 5 life and now have a 3/3 dude.

1. most decks could not just run phyrexian metamorph as a few sideboard slots to counter GoST. That's being a little unrealistic. Not every deck is blue, so phantasmal image is kind of irrelevant as well ~ not everyone plays blue! Both are out of the format now, for whatever that is worth.

2. I don't think you're deck is nearly as "all-in" on GoST as some are (which is a good thing for you ~ your deck does something without it, a lot don't).

3. keyrune's are pretty easily handled for a GoST deck; the rest are very valid, but you're now in the position of having to get lucky. And that really is my problem with the card ~ far, far too often you can just slam it on turn 3 and win through even moderate resistance.

FWIW, I think both Thragtusk and GoST are just dumb design. Both are overpowered. I don't think either are at all bannable, and I certainly think we have had worse cards in standard. My biggest issue is that they're just all upside. They don't test the pilots skill at all ~ only the opponents.

Quote from evenoire »

Makes me wonder why Bant control is such a big deck and U/W giest tempo isn't nearly as big if giest decks are soooo good against everything.

makes me wonder when you're going to stop trying to troll.

Phyrexian Metamorph? You know, the card that gave every freaking colour access to cloning? Decks could use it to run up to 8 of their best card or if the situation called for it like what I'm talking about just as a legend killer. Then there's Phantasmal Image which was just a complete pisstake, at 1U it was pretty much just kill GoST then carry on with your turn it cost that little to play.

While we are hear I am going to remind you neither of these cards exist in standard right now... since we are posting on the standard form and all.

Evil Twin and Clone are the clones we have access to.

I run W/U aggro right now and I run 4 spectral flight, 4 angel of jubilation and 4 silverblade paladin. Sure, it boosts the guy, but if by crazy chance I don't draw any of them then GoST just sits there or I just have to suicide him. If I draw a spectral flight, great, there's pretty much no coming back from that. Angel? Ok, it's a 3/3. By turn 4 I'm pretty sure my opponent will have a way to deal with that, even if it's just flash in Resto angel and block. Silverblade, well it doesn't make him any better against first strike (and my local meta has a ton of aggro). Even then these aren't the safest cards to play, say if the flight gets abrupt decay'd and then GoST just gets mauled, the silverblade dies turning him back in to a 2/2 (or even if he's unsummoned) or the angel gets killed/bounced then I'm back to a 2/2 bear that dies to everything.

You understand this entire argument is saying that you are dealing with 2 creatures at the same time, often using spells on the angel, to deal with him, right?

You also understand, in your example, you were in the percect situation with the perfect cards in play... you had the mana open for a respo angel.. and you didnt kill the Giest.

sorry if i misread this post, it is very blocky and hard to read.

Opponent swings with a Geist. You have a sliverblade Pally out.

You flash in restoration angel and kill the angel and Giest with doublestrike, losing your own angel.

^^^That's what I read... plus something about spectral flight I couldn't find.

Well, you invested 7 mana worth of cards, and 2 creatures, to barely deal with Giest, who is likely not the only one in the deck and in the colors where you can easily find another.



BUT! I agree that Thragtusk is far EASIER to play than Geist. Just like comparing Thrag to Goyf, though, they are not the same role in the deck, so its hard to actually compare the 2 and successfully doing so shows nothing