Desecration Demon has good synergy with Blood Artist, as it forces your opponent to make hard decisions. If he/she sacs a creature, he loses 1 life, a creature, the demon gets bigger. If he/she doesn't, a 6/6 demon will come crashing in.
So what does your deck look like? Have you had good results? Do you cut Falkenrath Aristocrats to find room for DD?
I wouldnt worry too much about sigarda and armada wurm. These cards are not very quick, you should have barfed out a ton of creatures by the time they come out.
For your first point, that's something people would have to determine through testing, and it will also depend just how aggressive the meta is. If the meta is full of durdly control decks then you can sign yourself as much as you want but if Zombies, RDW, and G/W/X aggro are predominant then it might not be such a good idea.
For your second point, I'm not really sure what you mean about dropping your Tragic Slips and 2 drops for those cards? You can run 3 Aristocrat and 3-4 Volleys just fine while still finding room for 3ish Tragic Slips and 3-4ish non-Blood Artist 2-drops or Sign in Bloods (if you look at many of the B/R lists from the past Standard season in fact you'll see those numbers were fairly standard).
For your third point the most important card in the mirror has been Blood Artist (ever since AVR hit) followed closely by Messenger. Whoever could stick the most Blood Artists and keep them around had a huge edge in the mirror in the past season. Messenger is the best card in the deck so he will always be important to the matchup too, and if you're playing Pillars you should be saving them for him specifically (and use your Slips and other removal on Artists). If Artist stops seeing play this may all change of course.
I've seen a couple lists with a lot of top heavy powerful spells. This is great, but this deck should still be aggresive and running lots of 3 and 4 drops will have you drawing awkward hands with uncastable spells.
You know, it never really donned on me how important Blood Atrist is in the mirror. In my current list I'm running 3 on the sideboard for the mirror, so I certainly respect it's power. I suppose I just didn't realize how important it was because B/R zombies had so much removal that it would never live more than a turn. There is less removal in Zombie lists now, so his impact could hit harder. Although, with fewer sac outlets I'm not sure I want him in the maindeck.
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This is the list that Gerry Thompson ran in his testing video last week. I think it's an excellent starting point - at least, it's where I will be going from. Cards I'm not sure about are the number of Rancor - I might like to make room for more. Possible cuts are a Cavern of Souls or the Dreadbore if it proves underwhelming. Flames of the Firebrand seems very good against what I'm anticipating will be a large amount of mana dorks and 1/1 Spirit tokens directly following rotation. I also have to try Blood Artist in the main instead of Shred-Freak, but Gerry's reasoning seemed sound to me: having the ability to put 4 points of damage on the table turn two is much more important. Shred-Freak may be underwhelming against Spirit tokens or the mirror, but not knowing what the matchup is game one, it is much more versatile than Blood Artist.
As for the board, I'm not so sure about Thragtusk - it seems very good in the mirror (i.e. can't be easily dealt with at all, in a match that often will come down to attrition), but at the same time the mirror may lean heavily on Pillar of Flame as it has in the past - killing Messengers and Gravecrawlers. Perhaps the mirror plan will change to include Pillars, and if Blood Artist finds itself in the maindeck, possibly even a couple of Annihilating Fire.
-I haven't run into any issues with consistency in the manabase. Yes, the manabase can be painful. I suppose this may be a concern in mirrors against B/R or B/G versions of the deck, but I think that the improvement of the rest of the matchups is easily worthwhile.
-The mana curve is indeed important, but at least in the list above we still have 11 one-cost cards - there's nothing wrong with playing a second Gravecrawler or Diregraf Ghoul and Rancoring the first or Tragic Slipping a mana dork on turn two - if you don't hit one of the seven two-drop creatures.
-Pillar of Flame/mirror I somewhat addressed in the above section - we'll have to see how important Messengers and Gravecrawlers are post rotation, and how well Thragtusk works.
Finally a list that I really like from a pro.
Light on Rancor, heavy on Manglers and Aristocrats. Flames of the Firebrand and Sign in Blood in the mainboard, Blood Artists in the side and he's running the Shred-Freak mainboard.
That is my kind of list. That's getting updated to the original post.
My only real complaint that I have is the lack of any Pillar of Flame. Zombies is still looking strong and fairly popular in the early metagame, so I think having at least 2 in the mainboard is necessary. I'd cut 1 Cavern of Souls and 1 Flames of the Firebrand for a pair in the mainboard. 24 lands just feels like way too many in this deck, and exchanging burn for burn seems like an okay swap to me.
I also feel like the deck needs some number of Golgari Charm. The versatility of that card is incredible. Against spirit token decks, I'd definitely want access to at least 2 copies, as it can wipe the board of tokens if there is no enchantment pump, or can simply take out the enchantment. Plus, regenerating all our guys vs. non-black control or other aggro decks makes the card very solid. It may take the place of Rakdos Return and the other Flames of the Firebrand in the board for me, since the charm comes in against the same matchup as Rakdos Return plus working against the aggro decks. And also, the charm comes in against certain aggro matchups like Flames of the Firebrand, while still being able to get rid of Detention Spheres, Oblivion Rings, and regenerating our guys through Supreme Verdicts.
In case somebody else has noticed in testing how good Flames is with Tragic Slip. A turn 4 Flames and Tragic creates a one sided board sweeper against most of the Green based aggro decks that are out there right now. Pretty solid.
Sideboard is still a bit of a work in progress as not for sure yet what the new meta will bring. Abrupt Decay I agree feels better here for now as a wait and see what my opponent is playing. Unbreathing Horde and Witchbane Orb is for Bonfire of the Damned and any other heavy burn type decks, with the Orb also providing protection from Discard/Mill decks.
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Sideboard is still a bit of a work in progress as not for sure yet what the new meta will bring. Abrupt Decay I agree feels better here for now as a wait and see what my opponent is playing. Unbreathing Horde and Witchbane Orb is for Bonfire of the Damned and any other heavy burn type decks, with the Orb also providing protection from Discard/Mill decks.
I have a few problems with your list.
1. You are leaving Red out of your list, and while I have no immediate problem with that, this is the Jund Zombies forum. Your list has no Red, therefore it is not Jund and belongs in a different thread.
2. Less than 4 Geralf's Messengers. This immediately makes your list subpar, and not as powerful as it could be. The Messengers are the most powerful creature in the deck. Without 4 copies of him, the deck simply isn't a good Zombie list.
3. You have 8 "do-nothing" cards in your list. Grisly Salvage and Ghoulcaller's Chant are gimmicky, bad combo cards. Having 8 cards that don't progress your board state in zombies is a no-no. We are an aggro deck, not a combo deck. Honestly I don't even know what you are trying to do with that list. Dumping creatures into the grave in order to return them to your hand, costing you 3 mana and multiple cards on top of the creature's normal casting cost. Kind of a non-bo there. Grisly Salvage may be a cool pseudo reanimation/tutor friendly card, but that is a different deck. That is not Zombies.
The Overview in the original post clearly states the Zombie deck's gameplan:
"Welcome to the purest form of aggro! This is the one established aggro deck in the format that is carrying over from the previous standard format. What this deck aims to do, is play lost of cheap, efficient, aggressive creatures and attempts to finish the game within the shortest period of time. The deck looks to keep the match in the early game, as that is where this deck thrives."
So i tested with Gerrys list exactly against WGb tokens and it wasn't the matchup that screwed me over it was the mana. I always had too much and not the right colors. i never once in three games drew a red sources even with the 11 sources. 2 games had me staring at a dead aristocrate in hand. not saying anything cause i haven't done enough with the deck but that looks bad. just wanted to see if anyone else is having the same problem.
So i tested with Gerrys list exactly against WGb tokens and it wasn't the matchup that screwed me over it was the mana. I always had too much and not the right colors. i never once in three games drew a red sources even with the 11 sources. 2 games had me staring at a dead aristocrate in hand. not saying anything cause i haven't done enough with the deck but that looks bad. just wanted to see if anyone else is having the same problem.
Just random manascrew, nothing special. BR zombies have been topping daily events with just as many Aristocrats and red mana sources.
So i tested with Gerrys list exactly against WGb tokens and it wasn't the matchup that screwed me over it was the mana. I always had too much and not the right colors. i never once in three games drew a red sources even with the 11 sources. 2 games had me staring at a dead aristocrate in hand. not saying anything cause i haven't done enough with the deck but that looks bad. just wanted to see if anyone else is having the same problem.
3 games isn't a great sample size, but that is certainly a issue i have with jund. It's a high risk / hi reward scenario. A scenario i don't really want to experience going into a large grindy tournament.
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Troll is a piss poor 2 drop though. rakdos shred freak is a great agressive 2 drop, troll takes a while to catch up in dmg with him, and yes, you can regenerate, but not if you play him turn 2. Which is why I count him more as a 3 drop.
Troll is quite good actually, he's just not all that aggressive in every situation. What he brings to the deck along with rancor and dreg mangler is resilience. Shred-freak is indeed very fast, and can randomly create a boatload of pressure, especially in multiples, but recovering from shred-freak is much easier than it is against troll. My initial lists were b/r, and super aggro (I even tried out some lists that had no messenger and ash zealot and/or the suite of 3 power 2 drops), but despite being able to put my opponent to nearly dead every single game, closing it out was rare. There's just too many ways to stabilize between detention spheres, verdicts, terminus (bad for any version), flames of the firebrand, jace, azorious charms, feeling of dreads, token swarms, and the one that made me want to pull my hair out- thragtusk. Troll and dreg mangler provide a little more resistance to most of these effects, and access to golgari charm helps in a lot of places too. Another strike against shred freak, in the semi mirror, my blood artists were almost always better than his shred freaks- I won a few games were he had me in the 6-10 range while still above 15 on the back of flames+artist. Troll shuts the aggression down unless he had a tragic slip. Also, surviving supreme verdict is a huge point in troll's favor. In testing, despite not being able to hold regen mana up, jamming him on 2 is correct many times. There's not a ton of ways to kill him if you're on the play unless you opponent is red, and he is quite often a 3+ power beater that can trample right over whatever they have back to defend with. Rancor is of course absurd, and having 2-3 makes for some miserable states for your opponent, especially when you rancor your t1 gravecrawler... Admittedly running more than 2 is greedy, but I'm still testing, and I want 3 currently to see just how bad it is with the all black manabase (plus I enjoy attacking with my blood artists). Dreg mangler is another card that's quite nice to have available in that it provides a different form of resilience with it's scavenge ability for long games while still being an efficient beater.
So, TL;DR version- In the main, green brings resilience to the table over going r/b.
Light on Rancor, heavy on Manglers and Aristocrats. Flames of the Firebrand and Sign in Blood in the mainboard, Blood Artists in the side and he's running the Shred-Freak mainboard.
That is my kind of list. That's getting updated to the original post.
My only real complaint that I have is the lack of any Pillar of Flame. Zombies is still looking strong and fairly popular in the early metagame, so I think having at least 2 in the mainboard is necessary. I'd cut 1 Cavern of Souls and 1 Flames of the Firebrand for a pair in the mainboard. 24 lands just feels like way too many in this deck, and exchanging burn for burn seems like an okay swap to me.
I also feel like the deck needs some number of Golgari Charm. The versatility of that card is incredible. Against spirit token decks, I'd definitely want access to at least 2 copies, as it can wipe the board of tokens if there is no enchantment pump, or can simply take out the enchantment. Plus, regenerating all our guys vs. non-black control or other aggro decks makes the card very solid. It may take the place of Rakdos Return and the other Flames of the Firebrand in the board for me, since the charm comes in against the same matchup as Rakdos Return plus working against the aggro decks. And also, the charm comes in against certain aggro matchups like Flames of the Firebrand, while still being able to get rid of Detention Spheres, Oblivion Rings, and regenerating our guys through Supreme Verdicts.
In case somebody else has noticed in testing how good Flames is with Tragic Slip. A turn 4 Flames and Tragic creates a one sided board sweeper against most of the Green based aggro decks that are out there right now. Pretty solid.
As far as Pillar of Flame/removal suite are concerned, I agree, there need to be some number of them in the maindeck. That number might also be 4, depending on if this deck is just 50% of the meta off the bat or what. The most likely cuts from that list will probably be land #24 and the miser's Dreadbore, which just feels kind of clunky to me way too often. Also of note is that killing manadorks on T2 when you're on the play is phenomenal.
It's a strange issue; 24 lands is too many, but I do find myself stumbling on mana color-wise more often than I would like (I guess I'd like to never do so, but you know what I mean). I'm not sure there's any real solution to this, but the extra power of having red in the deck is just too good.
As for Golgari Charm... to be honest, the second two modes just don't excite me that much. I'm not sure how popular Curse of Death's Hold will be as a card boarded against Zombies, but the only other enchantments I see us really wanting to blow up are ridiculous Detention Spheres (i.e. one that gets more than one target, or Geralf's Messenger). The regeneration isn't so great for a couple of reasons - one is that you don't need to overcommit to the board with this deck, and we have a lot of creatures that are already resistant to the kind of wrath you can regenerate from - Messenger, Troll, Gravecrawler - but the charm already does nothing against the ones we really hate, Terminus and Angel of Glory's Rise. The charm I much prefer to be looking at is Rakdos Charm. I for one will be keeping the full set of Flames of the Firebrand - it is just absurd if only in its ability to create advantageous trades/combat steps - so I don't fear all the spirit tokens. I don't see the Shatter mode being too exciting, but getting the graveyard seems so good when every control deck is playing at least one of Desparate Ravings or Lingering Souls, and a reanimator deck seems to be a real thing, too. It's also a bit of reach in a pinch, which I will never complain about, even if it's just a Shock or something.
The sideboard in this list definitely needs a lot of work - I think that the Thragtusk/Blood Artist/Nighthawk plan against the mirror is pretty lame, to be honest, in so many matchups because it just takes the deck away from playing its own game. It may change to something like this, I think:
I don't think pillar of flame is worth it in the maindeck since we have enough removal. The only time we want the card is in the mirror. I'd rather play broader spells. Plus it destroys the illusion of the deck having great mana.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
I don't think pillar of flame is worth it in the maindeck since we have enough removal. The only time we want the card is in the mirror. I'd rather play broader spells. Plus it destroys the illusion of the deck having great mana.
But we should play 3-of Rancor right? Kind of a bad argument declaring that one has a more damaging effect on the deck's mana base when they will both mostly be played on turn 2. Seems to me that either of those cards stretch the mana base a bit much. BUT in my opinion, we should play some of one or the other in order to have the greatest power in the deck. It depends on what you are looking for, as both cards act as reach, but one is sometimes reusable by slapping it on another creature while the other can simply remove opposing creatures.
Depending on which way you want to take the deck can determine which card you choose. How the meta evolves in the long run will ultimately be the deciding factor.
As far as Pillar of Flame/removal suite are concerned, I agree, there need to be some number of them in the maindeck. That number might also be 4, depending on if this deck is just 50% of the meta off the bat or what. The most likely cuts from that list will probably be land #24 and the miser's Dreadbore, which just feels kind of clunky to me way too often. Also of note is that killing manadorks on T2 when you're on the play is phenomenal.
It's a strange issue; 24 lands is too many, but I do find myself stumbling on mana color-wise more often than I would like (I guess I'd like to never do so, but you know what I mean). I'm not sure there's any real solution to this, but the extra power of having red in the deck is just too good.
As for Golgari Charm... to be honest, the second two modes just don't excite me that much. I'm not sure how popular Curse of Death's Hold will be as a card boarded against Zombies, but the only other enchantments I see us really wanting to blow up are ridiculous Detention Spheres (i.e. one that gets more than one target, or Geralf's Messenger). The regeneration isn't so great for a couple of reasons - one is that you don't need to overcommit to the board with this deck, and we have a lot of creatures that are already resistant to the kind of wrath you can regenerate from - Messenger, Troll, Gravecrawler - but the charm already does nothing against the ones we really hate, Terminus and Angel of Glory's Rise. The charm I much prefer to be looking at is Rakdos Charm. I for one will be keeping the full set of Flames of the Firebrand - it is just absurd if only in its ability to create advantageous trades/combat steps - so I don't fear all the spirit tokens. I don't see the Shatter mode being too exciting, but getting the graveyard seems so good when every control deck is playing at least one of Desparate Ravings or Lingering Souls, and a reanimator deck seems to be a real thing, too. It's also a bit of reach in a pinch, which I will never complain about, even if it's just a Shock or something.
The sideboard in this list definitely needs a lot of work - I think that the Thragtusk/Blood Artist/Nighthawk plan against the mirror is pretty lame, to be honest, in so many matchups because it just takes the deck away from playing its own game. It may change to something like this, I think:
Don't forget that Golgari Charm is very good against Spirit token decks by being able to take out a squad of tokens or taking out an Intangible Virtue.
Also think about how all those GW midrange matchups are going to go. Regenerating a Geralf's Messenger while it trades with Thragtusk is going to be amazingly powerful. If they just want to pick off a Diregraf Ghoul with Thragtusk, we can post combat cast Golgari Charm for the -1/-1 finishing off the Thragtusk. And maybe we even have the Tragic Slip in hand to pick off the beast token as well.
Also when you swing in with your Diregraf Ghoul against GW Token decks and they cast Midnight haunting to take out your diregraf Ghoul, we Regen him or -1/-1 keeping our tempo.
People are thinking too narrow for all the sweet combat tricks that the Golgari Charm can do. That is the one I really want in the maindeck.
Rakdos Charm can be great too against token decks, as shooting them for 4 or 6 damage to the face after they pump out a bunch of Lingering Souls tokens will be a massive amount of reach. While at the same time being able to just wipe their grave removing the second half of Lingering Souls. The problem I see with Rakdos Charm is that it is simply too narrow for the mainboard. If you run into a control deck, you are almost never going to be able to use it effectively. Stopping a Snapcaster's flashback or a Think Twice or Forbidden Alchemy are simply not good value as you are only hitting half of a card for your whole card.
I also don't like how all our sideboards are going for the mirror, etc. But you have to remember that the format hasn't actually started yet, so all the sideboards are tentative. I promise you that after 2-3 weeks of playing most people's sideboards will be vastly different, and continue to evolve weekly for about a month and a half.
Also think about how all those GW midrange matchups are going to go. Regenerating a Geralf's Messenger while it trades with Thragtusk is going to be amazingly powerful. If they just want to pick off a Diregraf Ghoul with Thragtusk, we can post combat cast Golgari Charm for the -1/-1 finishing off the Thragtusk. And maybe we even have the Tragic Slip in hand to pick off the beast token as well.
If you want to argue for the use of the charm please dont pick the absoulute worse scenario to use it for. You got 3 for 1 by 1 creature.
If you want to ban powerful cards, why not Islands? They have been proven to be fairly unfair in most cases.
The worst turn 1 play you can face down is Draw, play basic Island and say, "go"
If you want to argue for the use of the charm please dont pick the absoulute worse scenario to use it for. You got 3 for 1 by 1 creature.
And why is that? Do you think that situation is irrelevant? Do you think you will be able to 1-for-1 or even 2-for-1 Thragtusk often? You will be in for a rude awakening. There is only 1 card in all of standard that can actually trade with both halves of Thragtusk, and that is Geralf's Messenger. And even then there is still a 4 point life swing difference if they attacked you, or 1 point difference if he blocked. Sadly, most of our opponents won't be so complacent as to allow that trade to happen. You need to get used to losing multiple cards to a Thragtusk.
What is important is not losing tempo to him. Technically, Diregraf Ghoul should have done at least 4 damage to the opponent by turn 4 or 5, hopefully more. At that point, he has done his job, and we can throw him into a Thragtusk for little value. As long as we can continue punching damage past the Thragtusk, that's all that really matters.
It's a terrible use for charm, why not just have a brimstone volley that kills the thragtusk in the first place or does 5 points to the face.
When the tusk hits play you usually have a 1-2 turn window to close the game otherwise before their next big play ends it. Charm is not the spell you want in that situation.
Charm is only good against decks where it has multiple uses, ie lingering souls + orings/spheres + wraths or tokens + virtue.
The strength of that Gerry T list, is that it has only 5 colored spells (while having 3 draw spells as well) all of which are still effective if you don't happen to draw the mana till T4+.
I personally disagree with; only 1 rancor, the shred-freaks over additional 1 drops, and brimstone volley vs flames, but that is definitely the way to go if you want to go 3 colors.
It's a terrible use for charm, why not just have a brimstone volley that kills the thragtusk in the first place or does 5 points to the face.
When the tusk hits play you usually have a 1-2 turn window to close the game otherwise before their next big play ends it. Charm is not the spell you want in that situation.
Charm is only good against decks where it has multiple uses, ie lingering souls + orings/spheres + wraths or tokens + virtue.
The strength of that Gerry T list, is that it has only 5 colored spells (while having 3 draw spells as well) all of which are still effective if you don't happen to draw the mana till T4+.
I personally disagree with; only 1 rancor, the shred-freaks over additional 1 drops, and brimstone volley vs flames, but that is definitely the way to go if you want to go 3 colors.
I think the rancor choice is the right one simply because having too many leads to a hand full of rancors and if you're playing the 1 the way your suppose to its rare that you will lose it. Shred-freak was probably there because he is human and has haste but I can see the argument for more 1 drops over it. I think brimstone volley was much better when we had a way to trigger it often(mortarpod) but now it just seems better to run a burn spell with a little more versatility.
If you want to ban powerful cards, why not Islands? They have been proven to be fairly unfair in most cases.
The worst turn 1 play you can face down is Draw, play basic Island and say, "go"
Brimestone volley is fine even without sac outlets imo.
Personally, Ive never had an issue with it at least. Swing with a bunch of creatures, and if they dont block, you win, and if they do block, you brimestone and win too. What are they going to do, never block or kill your creatures again to not trigger the volley? Unrealistic at best.
You are correct sir but the deck now plays closer to a full on aggro deck where as before it was like a burn/aggro deck. Much of the burn has been removed in favor of more creatures. Thats not to say thats the right call just stating the facts.
If you want to ban powerful cards, why not Islands? They have been proven to be fairly unfair in most cases.
The worst turn 1 play you can face down is Draw, play basic Island and say, "go"
It's a terrible use for charm, why not just have a brimstone volley that kills the thragtusk in the first place or does 5 points to the face.
When the tusk hits play you usually have a 1-2 turn window to close the game otherwise before their next big play ends it. Charm is not the spell you want in that situation.
Charm is only good against decks where it has multiple uses, ie lingering souls + orings/spheres + wraths or tokens + virtue.
The strength of that Gerry T list, is that it has only 5 colored spells (while having 3 draw spells as well) all of which are still effective if you don't happen to draw the mana till T4+.
I personally disagree with; only 1 rancor, the shred-freaks over additional 1 drops, and brimstone volley vs flames, but that is definitely the way to go if you want to go 3 colors.
Oh I completely agree that it is a terrible use of the Charm. I was just trying to show that in even the most dire of circumstances, Golgari Charm is still not completely dead. Everyone on here likes to think of the most ideal uses for spells, but they seem to forget that a lot of times, you will be using the spell in a way that is not expected. I just want people to see that Charm is good enough against multiple decks, that you can mainboard it and not be afraid of it being a dead draw.
Testing this list right now. Disciple is amazing as a 1-of, though I wouldn't want to play more. Whenever you see a second one, things get too clumsy. Sacrificing a Messenger in Aggro MUs breaks the game wide open.
Same for Garruk, chaining Messengers is strong and him making a Wolf each turn can grind out an opponent, should the need arise.
I'm looking at siding in a 23rd land for Aggro MUs, coupled with more Flames and some Huntmasters. Anyone tried that before?
Well Im for the burn, because if you wanna play weenies without evasion, you better have a plan to finish the game once bigger stuff comes out.
But anyway, whether you decide to play burn or not, saying that you need sac outlets for brimestone volley is just wrong, since even without brimestone volley, its incredibly easy to create scenarios where they HAVE to block and kill some of your creatures, or die.
Did you gentelmen forget that Falkenrath is also a sac outlet??
I built a similar version but more with more burn. You have the aggression early game dealing out damage along with a turn three messenger, so if an Aristocrat drops and gets damage threw turn four good chance the Brimstone will clean up the game for you before a Thragtusk hits the field. Getting the chance to play it earlier is even better.
Obviously everything is situational... but Thragtusk has been my biggest problem latley.
Do you guys think any other deck in this format will be able to beat this deck 'speed-wise' ?
It doesn't look like it. The only other deck with some fast creatures and spells is Mono Red, and they are still 1-2 turns slower than us. They use some of the same creatures and spells that we do, but they just don't have anywhere near the same consistency or resilience that we do. I don't even think they have a possible turn 4 kill.
Beyond that, all the green based aggro decks are probably 3-4 turns slower. Those decks look to win in the mid game or early-late game. They are trying to finish games with Thragtusks and Angels which don't even come down till turn 4 or 5.
And finally, there are the Delver decks which are most definitely slower than they once were. They are no longer flipping Delver consistently since they don't have Ponder, and their whole suite of cantrips has been reduced to far less efficient and slower draw spells. Plus most of the newest lists aren't even running Runechanter's Pike anymore because they simply don't have the consistency.
Aside from that, it looks like the rest of the format is going to be Ramp and Control decks.
So what does your deck look like? Have you had good results? Do you cut Falkenrath Aristocrats to find room for DD?
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I've seen a couple lists with a lot of top heavy powerful spells. This is great, but this deck should still be aggresive and running lots of 3 and 4 drops will have you drawing awkward hands with uncastable spells.
You know, it never really donned on me how important Blood Atrist is in the mirror. In my current list I'm running 3 on the sideboard for the mirror, so I certainly respect it's power. I suppose I just didn't realize how important it was because B/R zombies had so much removal that it would never live more than a turn. There is less removal in Zombie lists now, so his impact could hit harder. Although, with fewer sac outlets I'm not sure I want him in the maindeck.
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Finally a list that I really like from a pro.
Light on Rancor, heavy on Manglers and Aristocrats. Flames of the Firebrand and Sign in Blood in the mainboard, Blood Artists in the side and he's running the Shred-Freak mainboard.
That is my kind of list. That's getting updated to the original post.
My only real complaint that I have is the lack of any Pillar of Flame. Zombies is still looking strong and fairly popular in the early metagame, so I think having at least 2 in the mainboard is necessary. I'd cut 1 Cavern of Souls and 1 Flames of the Firebrand for a pair in the mainboard. 24 lands just feels like way too many in this deck, and exchanging burn for burn seems like an okay swap to me.
I also feel like the deck needs some number of Golgari Charm. The versatility of that card is incredible. Against spirit token decks, I'd definitely want access to at least 2 copies, as it can wipe the board of tokens if there is no enchantment pump, or can simply take out the enchantment. Plus, regenerating all our guys vs. non-black control or other aggro decks makes the card very solid. It may take the place of Rakdos Return and the other Flames of the Firebrand in the board for me, since the charm comes in against the same matchup as Rakdos Return plus working against the aggro decks. And also, the charm comes in against certain aggro matchups like Flames of the Firebrand, while still being able to get rid of Detention Spheres, Oblivion Rings, and regenerating our guys through Supreme Verdicts.
In case somebody else has noticed in testing how good Flames is with Tragic Slip. A turn 4 Flames and Tragic creates a one sided board sweeper against most of the Green based aggro decks that are out there right now. Pretty solid.
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Gravecrawler
4x Lotleth Troll
4x Dreg Mangler
3x Geralf's Messenger
2x Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
INSTANTS
3x Golgari Charm
4x Grisly Salvage
3x Tragic Slip
4x Ghoulcaller's Chant
2x Sign in Blood
LANDS
3x Cavern of Souls
2x Forest
4x Overgrown Tomb
10x Swamp
4x Woodland Cemetery
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Duress
3x Garruk Relentless
3x Unbreathing Horde
3x Witchbane Orb
A couple ideas here. Abuse Lotleth-Troll and Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord with Ghoulcaller's Chant as it basically reads put 4 +1/+1 counters on Lotleth-Troll. Then have Deathrite Shaman take full advantage of Grisly Salvage and my opponents GY.
Sideboard is still a bit of a work in progress as not for sure yet what the new meta will bring. Abrupt Decay I agree feels better here for now as a wait and see what my opponent is playing. Unbreathing Horde and Witchbane Orb is for Bonfire of the Damned and any other heavy burn type decks, with the Orb also providing protection from Discard/Mill decks.
Current Decks
Standard : WB Orzhov Vampires BW GUB Sultai Constrictor BUG
Brawl : GB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons BG
Modern : GB Golgari Elves BG GR Atarka Goblins RG
Pauper : W Heroic W GB Delve BG
I have a few problems with your list.
1. You are leaving Red out of your list, and while I have no immediate problem with that, this is the Jund Zombies forum. Your list has no Red, therefore it is not Jund and belongs in a different thread.
2. Less than 4 Geralf's Messengers. This immediately makes your list subpar, and not as powerful as it could be. The Messengers are the most powerful creature in the deck. Without 4 copies of him, the deck simply isn't a good Zombie list.
3. You have 8 "do-nothing" cards in your list. Grisly Salvage and Ghoulcaller's Chant are gimmicky, bad combo cards. Having 8 cards that don't progress your board state in zombies is a no-no. We are an aggro deck, not a combo deck. Honestly I don't even know what you are trying to do with that list. Dumping creatures into the grave in order to return them to your hand, costing you 3 mana and multiple cards on top of the creature's normal casting cost. Kind of a non-bo there. Grisly Salvage may be a cool pseudo reanimation/tutor friendly card, but that is a different deck. That is not Zombies.
The Overview in the original post clearly states the Zombie deck's gameplan:
"Welcome to the purest form of aggro! This is the one established aggro deck in the format that is carrying over from the previous standard format. What this deck aims to do, is play lost of cheap, efficient, aggressive creatures and attempts to finish the game within the shortest period of time. The deck looks to keep the match in the early game, as that is where this deck thrives."
Just random manascrew, nothing special. BR zombies have been topping daily events with just as many Aristocrats and red mana sources.
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3 games isn't a great sample size, but that is certainly a issue i have with jund. It's a high risk / hi reward scenario. A scenario i don't really want to experience going into a large grindy tournament.
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Troll is quite good actually, he's just not all that aggressive in every situation. What he brings to the deck along with rancor and dreg mangler is resilience. Shred-freak is indeed very fast, and can randomly create a boatload of pressure, especially in multiples, but recovering from shred-freak is much easier than it is against troll. My initial lists were b/r, and super aggro (I even tried out some lists that had no messenger and ash zealot and/or the suite of 3 power 2 drops), but despite being able to put my opponent to nearly dead every single game, closing it out was rare. There's just too many ways to stabilize between detention spheres, verdicts, terminus (bad for any version), flames of the firebrand, jace, azorious charms, feeling of dreads, token swarms, and the one that made me want to pull my hair out- thragtusk. Troll and dreg mangler provide a little more resistance to most of these effects, and access to golgari charm helps in a lot of places too. Another strike against shred freak, in the semi mirror, my blood artists were almost always better than his shred freaks- I won a few games were he had me in the 6-10 range while still above 15 on the back of flames+artist. Troll shuts the aggression down unless he had a tragic slip. Also, surviving supreme verdict is a huge point in troll's favor. In testing, despite not being able to hold regen mana up, jamming him on 2 is correct many times. There's not a ton of ways to kill him if you're on the play unless you opponent is red, and he is quite often a 3+ power beater that can trample right over whatever they have back to defend with. Rancor is of course absurd, and having 2-3 makes for some miserable states for your opponent, especially when you rancor your t1 gravecrawler... Admittedly running more than 2 is greedy, but I'm still testing, and I want 3 currently to see just how bad it is with the all black manabase (plus I enjoy attacking with my blood artists). Dreg mangler is another card that's quite nice to have available in that it provides a different form of resilience with it's scavenge ability for long games while still being an efficient beater.
So, TL;DR version- In the main, green brings resilience to the table over going r/b.
As far as Pillar of Flame/removal suite are concerned, I agree, there need to be some number of them in the maindeck. That number might also be 4, depending on if this deck is just 50% of the meta off the bat or what. The most likely cuts from that list will probably be land #24 and the miser's Dreadbore, which just feels kind of clunky to me way too often. Also of note is that killing manadorks on T2 when you're on the play is phenomenal.
It's a strange issue; 24 lands is too many, but I do find myself stumbling on mana color-wise more often than I would like (I guess I'd like to never do so, but you know what I mean). I'm not sure there's any real solution to this, but the extra power of having red in the deck is just too good.
As for Golgari Charm... to be honest, the second two modes just don't excite me that much. I'm not sure how popular Curse of Death's Hold will be as a card boarded against Zombies, but the only other enchantments I see us really wanting to blow up are ridiculous Detention Spheres (i.e. one that gets more than one target, or Geralf's Messenger). The regeneration isn't so great for a couple of reasons - one is that you don't need to overcommit to the board with this deck, and we have a lot of creatures that are already resistant to the kind of wrath you can regenerate from - Messenger, Troll, Gravecrawler - but the charm already does nothing against the ones we really hate, Terminus and Angel of Glory's Rise. The charm I much prefer to be looking at is Rakdos Charm. I for one will be keeping the full set of Flames of the Firebrand - it is just absurd if only in its ability to create advantageous trades/combat steps - so I don't fear all the spirit tokens. I don't see the Shatter mode being too exciting, but getting the graveyard seems so good when every control deck is playing at least one of Desparate Ravings or Lingering Souls, and a reanimator deck seems to be a real thing, too. It's also a bit of reach in a pinch, which I will never complain about, even if it's just a Shock or something.
The sideboard in this list definitely needs a lot of work - I think that the Thragtusk/Blood Artist/Nighthawk plan against the mirror is pretty lame, to be honest, in so many matchups because it just takes the deck away from playing its own game. It may change to something like this, I think:
2 Rakdos' Return
2 Pillar of Flame
3 Rakdos Charm
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 something else that I'm not sure of yet
But we should play 3-of Rancor right? Kind of a bad argument declaring that one has a more damaging effect on the deck's mana base when they will both mostly be played on turn 2. Seems to me that either of those cards stretch the mana base a bit much. BUT in my opinion, we should play some of one or the other in order to have the greatest power in the deck. It depends on what you are looking for, as both cards act as reach, but one is sometimes reusable by slapping it on another creature while the other can simply remove opposing creatures.
Depending on which way you want to take the deck can determine which card you choose. How the meta evolves in the long run will ultimately be the deciding factor.
Don't forget that Golgari Charm is very good against Spirit token decks by being able to take out a squad of tokens or taking out an Intangible Virtue.
Also think about how all those GW midrange matchups are going to go. Regenerating a Geralf's Messenger while it trades with Thragtusk is going to be amazingly powerful. If they just want to pick off a Diregraf Ghoul with Thragtusk, we can post combat cast Golgari Charm for the -1/-1 finishing off the Thragtusk. And maybe we even have the Tragic Slip in hand to pick off the beast token as well.
Also when you swing in with your Diregraf Ghoul against GW Token decks and they cast Midnight haunting to take out your diregraf Ghoul, we Regen him or -1/-1 keeping our tempo.
People are thinking too narrow for all the sweet combat tricks that the Golgari Charm can do. That is the one I really want in the maindeck.
Rakdos Charm can be great too against token decks, as shooting them for 4 or 6 damage to the face after they pump out a bunch of Lingering Souls tokens will be a massive amount of reach. While at the same time being able to just wipe their grave removing the second half of Lingering Souls. The problem I see with Rakdos Charm is that it is simply too narrow for the mainboard. If you run into a control deck, you are almost never going to be able to use it effectively. Stopping a Snapcaster's flashback or a Think Twice or Forbidden Alchemy are simply not good value as you are only hitting half of a card for your whole card.
I also don't like how all our sideboards are going for the mirror, etc. But you have to remember that the format hasn't actually started yet, so all the sideboards are tentative. I promise you that after 2-3 weeks of playing most people's sideboards will be vastly different, and continue to evolve weekly for about a month and a half.
If you want to argue for the use of the charm please dont pick the absoulute worse scenario to use it for. You got 3 for 1 by 1 creature.
BaconoftheArk speaks the truth:
Just want to say this list is testing amazing for me
And why is that? Do you think that situation is irrelevant? Do you think you will be able to 1-for-1 or even 2-for-1 Thragtusk often? You will be in for a rude awakening. There is only 1 card in all of standard that can actually trade with both halves of Thragtusk, and that is Geralf's Messenger. And even then there is still a 4 point life swing difference if they attacked you, or 1 point difference if he blocked. Sadly, most of our opponents won't be so complacent as to allow that trade to happen. You need to get used to losing multiple cards to a Thragtusk.
What is important is not losing tempo to him. Technically, Diregraf Ghoul should have done at least 4 damage to the opponent by turn 4 or 5, hopefully more. At that point, he has done his job, and we can throw him into a Thragtusk for little value. As long as we can continue punching damage past the Thragtusk, that's all that really matters.
When the tusk hits play you usually have a 1-2 turn window to close the game otherwise before their next big play ends it. Charm is not the spell you want in that situation.
Charm is only good against decks where it has multiple uses, ie lingering souls + orings/spheres + wraths or tokens + virtue.
The strength of that Gerry T list, is that it has only 5 colored spells (while having 3 draw spells as well) all of which are still effective if you don't happen to draw the mana till T4+.
I personally disagree with; only 1 rancor, the shred-freaks over additional 1 drops, and brimstone volley vs flames, but that is definitely the way to go if you want to go 3 colors.
I'm glad someone gets it.
I think the rancor choice is the right one simply because having too many leads to a hand full of rancors and if you're playing the 1 the way your suppose to its rare that you will lose it. Shred-freak was probably there because he is human and has haste but I can see the argument for more 1 drops over it. I think brimstone volley was much better when we had a way to trigger it often(mortarpod) but now it just seems better to run a burn spell with a little more versatility.
BaconoftheArk speaks the truth:
You are correct sir but the deck now plays closer to a full on aggro deck where as before it was like a burn/aggro deck. Much of the burn has been removed in favor of more creatures. Thats not to say thats the right call just stating the facts.
BaconoftheArk speaks the truth:
Current Decks
Standard : WB Orzhov Vampires BW GUB Sultai Constrictor BUG
Brawl : GB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons BG
Modern : GB Golgari Elves BG GR Atarka Goblins RG
Pauper : W Heroic W GB Delve BG
Oh I completely agree that it is a terrible use of the Charm. I was just trying to show that in even the most dire of circumstances, Golgari Charm is still not completely dead. Everyone on here likes to think of the most ideal uses for spells, but they seem to forget that a lot of times, you will be using the spell in a way that is not expected. I just want people to see that Charm is good enough against multiple decks, that you can mainboard it and not be afraid of it being a dead draw.
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Blood Crypt
3 Woodland Cemetery
3 Dragonskull Summit
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Gravecrawler
4 Diregraf Ghoul
1 Rakdos Cackler
4 Lotleth Troll
2 Rakdos Shred-Freak
4 Dreg Mangler
4 Geralf's Messenger
3 Falkenrath Aristocrat
1 Disciple of Bolas
3 Rancor
// Removal/Burn
3 Tragic Slip
2 Pillar of Flame
1 Flames of the Firebrand
1 Dreadbore
// Planeswalker
1 Garruk Relentless
Testing this list right now. Disciple is amazing as a 1-of, though I wouldn't want to play more. Whenever you see a second one, things get too clumsy. Sacrificing a Messenger in Aggro MUs breaks the game wide open.
Same for Garruk, chaining Messengers is strong and him making a Wolf each turn can grind out an opponent, should the need arise.
I'm looking at siding in a 23rd land for Aggro MUs, coupled with more Flames and some Huntmasters. Anyone tried that before?
Did you gentelmen forget that Falkenrath is also a sac outlet??
I built a similar version but more with more burn. You have the aggression early game dealing out damage along with a turn three messenger, so if an Aristocrat drops and gets damage threw turn four good chance the Brimstone will clean up the game for you before a Thragtusk hits the field. Getting the chance to play it earlier is even better.
Obviously everything is situational... but Thragtusk has been my biggest problem latley.
It doesn't look like it. The only other deck with some fast creatures and spells is Mono Red, and they are still 1-2 turns slower than us. They use some of the same creatures and spells that we do, but they just don't have anywhere near the same consistency or resilience that we do. I don't even think they have a possible turn 4 kill.
Beyond that, all the green based aggro decks are probably 3-4 turns slower. Those decks look to win in the mid game or early-late game. They are trying to finish games with Thragtusks and Angels which don't even come down till turn 4 or 5.
And finally, there are the Delver decks which are most definitely slower than they once were. They are no longer flipping Delver consistently since they don't have Ponder, and their whole suite of cantrips has been reduced to far less efficient and slower draw spells. Plus most of the newest lists aren't even running Runechanter's Pike anymore because they simply don't have the consistency.
Aside from that, it looks like the rest of the format is going to be Ramp and Control decks.
5 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
2 Cavern of Souls
creatures (25)
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Gravecrawler
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Geralf's Messenger
3 Dreg Mangler
3 Rakdos Shred-Freak
3 Falkenrath Aristocrat
1 Rancor
instants (7)
3 Tragic Slip
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Flames of the Firebrand
sorceries (4)
3 Pillar of Flame
1 Dreadbore
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Duress
3 Golgari Charm
2 Vile Rebirth
2 Naturalize
2 Liliana of the Veil
I could replace the Flames for 2 Bonfire of the Damned as for the same cost off of Miracle it does 2 to the opponent and their dudes.
Thoughts?
currently playing:
Standard
UW Control
UWB Control
UB Control
MODERN
BRGJund
X Affinity
UWR Control
LEGACY
Dredge
R Burn
UWx Miracles
EDH
BRW Kaalia
______
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