UB feels kind of slow compared with a 6 power swing on turn 4 and exile effects, counterspells and hexproof in the same build. thats UW for reference.
Ghoulcaller's Chant is a great 1 of as with zombies its essentially a draw 2. Skinrender sort of sucks against this decks bad matches: hexproofs, mirran crusader, tokens which are all popular includes in the best archetypes.
Not to mention if your field is cleared by a DoJ he cant come in by himself unless he has a target or he'll just blow up.
.........
All that said, I like MB Zombies or BR zombies, not UB. Just cause it got a lord, it isnt automatically a buildable deck, Veritoanimus says it all the time, "bad cards that look good encourage people to play bad decks and lose matches". Dont be a sucker. Play Reaper.
I agree with absolutely everything you've said here.
I don't understand how people in here are talking about turning an aggro deck into a combo deck with 5 and 6 CMC spells and no draw spells.
RB Zombies is the fastest, and possibly, the most powerful. I tested for something like 5 hours against various decks on Friday, and was destroying everything. A couple of the decks weren't really updated, like UW Delver/Pike, and Wolf Run Red, but I don't think those decks are gaining much if anything.
BW Tokens matchup is easy enough once ratchet bombs are brought in and Incinerates and Fume Spitters out. Between 8 sweeper effects in Arc Trail and Ratchet Bomb, they can't keep up. The goal though, is to keep a hand with at least 1, 1 drop, and an Arc Trail and/or Ratchet Bomb. After you wipe the board the first time, they are going to be way behind, seeing as how they don't have the same speed as this deck.
Wolf Run Red isn't even a matchup. Drop a couple early guys, hopefully a Messenger or Gravecrawler in there somewhere, and then hold up removal or Act of Aggression for their Titan. GG. They don't interact well with us at all, as their sweepers don't really hurt. Arc Trail against them is fairly weak, but that's what sideboarding is for. This matchup is not RB Vamps vs. Valakut, as Wolf Run is far slower.
Wolf Run Green is more difficult as they can drop a Dungrove early. Luckily, we have Geth's Verdict mainboard, and run enough ways to take out a turn 1 Bird. The second Dungrove can be much more difficult to deal with than the first, and makes the matchup fairly poor. Luckily for us, Wolf Run Green isn't being played at all, because it dies hard to Delver, WB tokens, and any halfway decent control deck. I could see sideboarding Sword of Feast and Famine if this deck gets popular.
UW Delver can't keep up with the speed of this deck either. All you have to do against them, is make sure they don't get an equipment hit in. That's all. Every single game against him, I would have him at 10-12 life by turn 3 or 4, while I'm still sitting at 17 or 18. Gut Shot and Vapor Snag are both dead cards against this deck, and don't really do anything about tempo, because RB Zombies tempo is just faster, as all the spells are cheaper.
Side Note: And yes, Cemetery Reaper is really really good against Moorland Haunt decks, but only if you are aggressive enough. If you can force them into a position where they have to tap out to deal with your threats, then you'll be able to steal their dead creatures. Sure, you can't respond to it, but when I was testing, I ended up exiling their graveyard guy a lot on my turn as a way to limit their options. It also opens up cool plays, like forcing them to respond to your Reaper ability with Moorland Haunt. Then, since it is still your turn, you can Arc Trail the token and a Delver (or whatever). Don't forget about his usefulness against Solar Flare style decks, and the Grixis Lich combo decks. And of course, he basically gives every zombie in the list undying (bring it back as a 2/2 and it gets +1/+1). Reaper is far more useful than you guys are giving him credit for.
The Reaper is hugely mana intensive and is anti-synergistic with the overall strategy of the UB build.
Reaper being a mana sink is the whole idea. He is a late game creature that comes down, and adds a bunch of extra threats to the board after your early guys ate all the removal. These decks are missing a way to use our mana efficiently in the later stages of the game, so having a way to dump 3 mana a turn for a 3/3 is pretty sweet.
Granted, with Blue zombies, he is anti-synergistic. But the Blue zombies seem to not really add much to the aggressive strategy anyways, and lend themselves to a much slower, late game combo strategy. Sadly, that strategy is easily disrupted and really not that powerful. It won't be good in this highly aggro format.
RB Vamps = Non-deck/Too slow
Werewolves = Tool slow/non-interactive
Control Decks = We have yet to see what they are really going to be, as their tools will have to be selected due to the rest of the metagame. Expect early Esper Control, Solar Flare, UW Control, and UB Control decks. None of them will be optimized, so it should be easy pickings.
TLDR: RB Zombies beats all the other aggro decks out there easily. With exception to WB tokens, which is closer to a 60/40 or 55/45 matchup.
The addition of counter magic should be worth it, but if it's not... Super sad face...
I guess I should be the bearer of bad news. Counter spells are actually bad right now. There are so many aggro decks out there, that cards that kill creatures are just infinitely better. Why do you think the Delver decks and Blue based control decks are cutting Mana Leaks? Why do Control decks side out Mana Leaks against aggro?
As for new cards I'd like to test: Phyrexian Metamorph - As a more expensive Phantasmal Image to copy Messenger. Postmortem Lunge - To bring a Messenger back from the grave one last time, and if I have a sac outlet, or Geth's Verdict, he comes back again. Even without that though, a 3/2 haste creature with shock attached for only :3mana::sympb: reminds me a tiny bit of Bloodbraid Elf.
I played a few rounds this evening against a friend's Haunted Humans deck, where I discovered that unless I have a Vapor Snag in hand, then my B/u zombies have no way to get around a resolved Mirran Crusader. So, new idea: Turn to Frog in the sideboard as tech against anything prot black. Thoughts?
Also planning to remove the 2 Reapers I was running as well as all 4 of the Fume Spitters, and replace them with 4 Black Cats and 2 Go For the Throat. The cats are just too good not to run; every time I take them out I wish I hadn't, and every time I run them the discard effect works wonders. As for the Reapers, I have never had a game that lasts long enough to even want to use the Reaper's token ability, and invariably I just end up wishing he was a Captain instead. Also -1 Tragic Slip, +1 Vapor Snag. Snag has proven to be invaluable in all the games I've played since mainboarding it.
Oh, and -1 Swamp +1 Island. I was having a very hard time hitting my land drops tonight for some reason.
My 360 Peasant+ Cube!. Modern borders where possible, usually with the newest (or "best") art, and always the most readable card text. I also run all 10 painlands. My playgroup is super casual, as we have a fair number of newer or less experienced players. Typically we draft with 4 to 6 people, using 5 packs of 9.
With DKA out G/B zombies seem pretty playable Zombies are best mid-late game and i was testing a little bit during the prerelease
Zombie tokens work great especially with parallel lives and army of the damned
of course im goign to get called a noob and junk for the idea but at least try it
Zombie Apocalypse deserves at least 1 sideboard slot for Human decks in my opinion
The Zombie lords are bad.
The U/B lord is better then the mono, by a long shot.
But the mono deck is better then the U/B deck.
I disagree, I'm sure there are plenty of reasons why adding U is better than not. Even if it means playing tempo until UB just has a better board.
Dont try to force zombies into CMC slots they arent good at.
The 2 drop slot for instance.
And the 4 drop slot.
There are NO good zombies that cost 2 and 4.
Why jam in some bad zombies there then?
The only reason to run sub-par individual creatures in those slots, is if you...
A) Just want to stick with the theme regardless if you want good results.
B) There is such a synergy with other pieces of the deck that individually they are weaker, but as a whole is much stronger.
I strongly agree that our two drops suck, Black Cat is the best one, but even that feels lacking. However you can't possibly just call all two drops "sub-par"; I will represent Spellskite, again, he is an above average creature and he protects the important pieces on your board (if you choose to play them; to which you don't seem to want to) in addition to blocking Geralf's Messenger quite nicely.
Also, Skinrender is not bad. He isn't the most appealing four drop, but he is a Zombie and does a good deal of work.
There is no B scenario with the cards available in standard.
I'm not sure I understand this statement.
Ill let you guess which deck is doing better.
I really don't think that's a fair statement. He could be running on a strict budget or just not have the capacity to brew the way an entire thread of posters does. Maybe he wants a super fun tribal deck to play casually, there are a myriad of reasons why a deck built by one person with no representation could have a "sub-par" deck. (In quotes to denote the current bias of the word in the context of this competitive forum.)
Edit: Wow... So much happened when I started typing this. Give me time!!
I guess I should be the bearer of bad news. Counter spells are actually bad right now. There are so many aggro decks out there, that cards that kill creatures are just infinitely better. Why do you think the Delver decks and Blue based control decks are cutting Mana Leaks? Why do Control decks side out Mana Leaks against aggro?
That's fair, there are a ton of aggro decks in the format. It's why I like Spellskite so much right now! He blocks everything that we would care about except Obliterator. Dropping the Leaks from my last list means little because I had none... I used Negate, so your point remains very very valid.
At the two drop spot the deck can still drop the Negates for Doom Blade or other removal, that's not a hard connection to make. Going further than that could matter, but it could not.
____________
It was brought up that these mid-range/control decks are trying to do all this without any draw engines; well... Ya, I mentioned that in one of my previous posts. It's of no surprise... It's something I'm dealing with and will maybe overcome. I had a list in the spoilers thread about just straight up taking the UB control shell and making it Zombies because there are some other cool interactions; I could go back to that build but I like the creature heavy one more.
More Editing!!!: Apparently my list from post two-fifty-one was edited by me at some point... I added Mana Leaks? So, ya. I have eight slots to remove and add in things if Counter Magic is so bad.
I don't understand how people in here are talking about turning an aggro deck into a combo deck with 5 and 6 CMC spells and no draw spells.
I have several draw spells in my deck and only 3 5cmc cards that usually get milled out
I don't like how any deck that doesn't strictly adhere to the most popular build in the thread automatically gets shot down and never receives any constructive criticism.
Let me know when your mono-black builds win a GP or a SCG, then I might give up on UB
RB Zombies is the fastest, and possibly, the most powerful. I tested for something like 5 hours against various decks on Friday, and was destroying everything. A couple of the decks weren't really updated, like UW Delver/Pike, and Wolf Run Red, but I don't think those decks are gaining much if anything.
What list did you end up with?
Wolf Run Red isn't even a matchup. Drop a couple early guys, hopefully a Messenger or Gravecrawler in there somewhere, and then hold up removal or Act of Aggression for their Titan. GG. They don't interact well with us at all, as their sweepers don't really hurt. Arc Trail against them is fairly weak, but that's what sideboarding is for. This matchup is not RB Vamps vs. Valakut, as Wolf Run is far slower.
Wolf Run Green is more difficult as they can drop a Dungrove early. Luckily, we have Geth's Verdict mainboard, and run enough ways to take out a turn 1 Bird. The second Dungrove can be much more difficult to deal with than the first, and makes the matchup fairly poor. Luckily for us, Wolf Run Green isn't being played at all, because it dies hard to Delver, WB tokens, and any halfway decent control deck. I could see sideboarding Sword of Feast and Famine if this deck gets popular.
Wolf Run Conley (BG ramp) seems like a nightmare matchup for zombies.
Grave titan and Glissa shuts down any zombie offensive. Black zenith can kill anything, Curse shuts down crawlers.
RB Zombies beats all the other aggro decks out there easily. With exception to WB tokens, which is closer to a 60/40 or 55/45 matchup.
what cards are you running in your RB zombies deck? im interested in what your saying that its the fastest.
what do you guys think of massacre wurm? i know he costs alot but landing one is like a black sun zenith
I really love the idea of running 1 or 2 Massacre Wurms, though I think the 3BBB cmc is prohibitive the same way that Mikaeus' is. I'll proxy up and see how it handles, just to try it out.
I've started being less impressed with Grimgrin; he was a game-winner repeatedly during the first day of testing I did with my B/u deck but since then he's been a dead draw in nearly every game. Will take him out for the next round of testing.
Things on my to-try list:
Phyrexian Obliterators back in mainboard. At first I didn't think the B/u mana base would support his BBBB cost, but in testing I've noticed that he actually would be playable fairly often. Will slot back in as a possible 2-of.
Ponder. One thing this deck DESPERATELY needs is card draw. Bloodgift Demon is something I'd love to try, but I'm looking for early-game CA and the demon's 5 cmc is way too high.
At least 1 Ghoulcaller's Chant back in mainboard. I took it out a few iterations back and have regretted it ever since.
Sword of War and Peace as a 2-of. Lashwrithe works wonders in mono-black, but I shudder to think of the havoc a sword-wielding zombie could wreak if given the chance.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My 360 Peasant+ Cube!. Modern borders where possible, usually with the newest (or "best") art, and always the most readable card text. I also run all 10 painlands. My playgroup is super casual, as we have a fair number of newer or less experienced players. Typically we draft with 4 to 6 people, using 5 packs of 9.
Well Archie I'm gonna have to disagree with you again. Funny how were always working on the same archetypes pre-rotation though.
I would say blue gives the most benefit of splashing a color. At first I didn't run Diregraf Captain, but he is a little better than I thought. His presence can change games, it won't always but it can.
Vapor Snag and Snapcaster have been fantastic for me. I have been running Mana Leaks, and they are decent. Sometimes I'm really glad I have them and sometimes I wish I was more aggro. I'll do some testing this week without them.
Ponder is awesome too. Digging for threats or mana fixing (almost always for geralf) really helps.
I have several draw spells in my deck and only 3 5cmc cards that usually get milled out
I don't like how any deck that doesn't strictly adhere to the most popular build in the thread automatically gets shot down and never receives any constructive criticism.
Let me know when your mono-black builds win a GP or a SCG, then I might give up on UB
Guess you werent around to see goblin bidding in action.
From what I remember, you dropped Patriarch's Bidding late game, brought back all your Goblins, and smashed in for massive damage that same turn. Patriarch's Bidding was an instant win, 1 card combo. Grim Grim is a 3 card combo, which requires for 1 point of damage. AND you need to have all 3 of your combo pieces survive for a full turn to even pull it off. Please stop comparing these combos, as they are nowhere close to the same power level.
what cards are you running in your RB zombies deck? im interested in what your saying that its the fastest.
what do you guys think of massacre wurm? i know he costs alot but landing one is like a black sun zenith
Well, it is a fast aggro list, with burn, and no spells that cost more than 3 CMC. See below for my current list.
BTW, Massacre Wurm is slow, clunky, and should be saved for control decks. I don't even think BSZ should be played in these styles of decks, that is, unless you are pushing your list into the control/combo direction. I think that a lot of people don't remember what a real aggro deck is anymore. 5+ CMC spells are for control and combo decks. The guys bringing Grim Grim into the list, are making their lists slow and combo-ish.
Honestly, I think we should split this thread up into an aggro thread, and a control/combo thread. I think this would focus the conversations in the right directions. The slower decks with Grim Grim, etc., would be the control/combo deck. While UB with only Images, Mono Black (CMC stop at 4), and Red/Black being the aggro decks.
Wolf Run Conley (BG ramp) seems like a nightmare matchup for zombies.
Grave titan and Glissa shuts down any zombie offensive. Black zenith can kill anything, Curse shuts down crawlers.
What about humans?
I ended up feeling that the 2 drop was still lacking, and it seemed like I wanted to bring in Shrine of Burning Rage in nearly every single matchup. I moved 3 copies to the mainboard, and so far, it has been working really well. Its good against all the midrange decks and control decks that just don't have any way to really deal with it aside from Oring, which is usually only a 2-of mainboard. It also gives an extra bit of reach that pushes this deck over the edge.
Yes, the Jund Ramp deck that Conley put together is a difficult matchup, but not impossible. Saving removal spells for Titans is key, but since they have twice as many titans as I have removal spells that kill them, it makes the second titan very difficult to deal with. Boarding in Act of Aggression and Traitorous Blood help with this. Instant speed has been nice with AoA, as it leaves me with mana up on my turn to play burn, crack a shrine, or kill off the stolen creature. Traitorous Blood on the other hand, gives Trample, which is very very sweet when taking a Grave Titan or even a Glissa.
Oh yeah, and the Humans matchup still is good. They run more aggressive than WB tokens, but they still run right into Arc Trail. Honor of the Pure is the only real problem card in their list. That makes me want to side in Ratchet Bombs against them, especially since it can hit their tokens too. Honestly, I haven't seen a really competitive looking Humans list yet. I would appreciate being pointed to a good list, so I can get in some quality testing against it.
I still don't feel my list is finalized, but it sure is getting close.
Well Archie I'm gonna have to disagree with you again. Funny how were always working on the same archetypes pre-rotation though.
I would say blue gives the most benefit of splashing a color. At first I didn't run Diregraf Captain, but he is a little better than I thought. His presence can change games, it won't always but it can.
Vapor Snag and Snapcaster have been fantastic for me. I have been running Mana Leaks, and they are decent. Sometimes I'm really glad I have them and sometimes I wish I was more aggro. I'll do some testing this week without them.
Ponder is awesome too. Digging for threats or mana fixing (almost always for geralf) really helps.
Haha! Good to see you in here as well. I do like the idea of running Snapcaster and Vapor Snag in this deck. The blue black lists I have a problem with, are not that style. They are the ones that keep pushing the words "Grim-Grin" and "Combo". Those lists feel weak to me.
Another idea for us B/u players (aggro, not control or midrange) who don't have an unlimited budget: what about either Dark Favor or Spectral Flight in place of equipment?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My 360 Peasant+ Cube!. Modern borders where possible, usually with the newest (or "best") art, and always the most readable card text. I also run all 10 painlands. My playgroup is super casual, as we have a fair number of newer or less experienced players. Typically we draft with 4 to 6 people, using 5 packs of 9.
It kinda played like Delver without Delver. Like I said Mana Leaks were key some games but useless others. It had issues with mainly tokens. Humans weren't the greatest match up either but not as bad as tokens.
And again this is an old version, it's significantly different now.
EDIT: Building an optimal list requires time and a lot of testing so I'm sure it'll change even more the next couple weeks. Thus, no point in posting my current list anyway. =]
You play equipment in these kinds of decks because the dude you want to put it on is cheap and you can make them easily ie tokens or Gravecrawler. Enchantments don't work with them at all.
My 360 Peasant+ Cube!. Modern borders where possible, usually with the newest (or "best") art, and always the most readable card text. I also run all 10 painlands. My playgroup is super casual, as we have a fair number of newer or less experienced players. Typically we draft with 4 to 6 people, using 5 packs of 9.
Has anyone thought of including pod? Pod could in the u/b zombies trigger captain, get off undying with messenger, works to go up the curve in even mono b... I may be playing MBZ.. But not sure if anyone had thought of the Birthing Pod idea yet... Topping your curve with 1 ofs of G tits and Sheoldred.
I like the idea of playing UB Zombies like Delver. Would you consider including Phantasmal Images? They are doing good job in Delver decks and here they have very good "targets" too - Geralf's and Snappy.
Yah definitely. I play a couple in my latest version.
My "Zombie Delver" deck played very well. It's possibly better than regular delver vs control due to resiliency. It's issue with tokens and humans though was the fact that none of my creats had evasion like real delver does.
The deck itself interacted beautifully though. Verdicts, snags, messengers, and snappy damage REALLY adds up quickly. So I'm definitely on the right track, just needs a lot more tuning.
I dunno. Due to budget issues, I like the idea of going mono black (I can't afford tons of dual lands/snapcasters/phantasmal images). I thought about it all day, and I figure maybe Mortarpod isn't such a bad idea for a 2-drop. It's a blocker in a pinch, and may be able to do those last points of damage. Plus, the possible interactions with Tragic Slip amuse me.
Then again, I don't really play standard much; I just want a reason to show off my 4x Gravecrawler.
My 360 Peasant+ Cube!. Modern borders where possible, usually with the newest (or "best") art, and always the most readable card text. I also run all 10 painlands. My playgroup is super casual, as we have a fair number of newer or less experienced players. Typically we draft with 4 to 6 people, using 5 packs of 9.
Wasn't sure if this was worth starting a new thread so I'm going to place my deck here.
I really want to make a Zombie weenie deck. Right now my deck is at a point where it is able to get close to victory in every game but it just runs out of gas mid game. Most of the games I play I can get my opponent to between 8 and 12 life in the first few turns without taking much damage myself, but then things just go pear shaped and I lose with my opponents still between 5 and 10 life. I doubt that by sticking to a "weenie" theme the deck will be competitive at all but I want to see where it can go.
Wasn't sure if this was worth starting a new thread so I'm going to my deck here.
I really want to make a Zombie weenie deck. Right now my deck is at a point where it is able to get close to victory in every game but it just runs out of gas mid game. Most of the games I play I can get my opponent to between 8 and 12 life in the first few turns without taking much damage myself, but then things just go pear shaped and I lose with my opponents still between 5 and 10 life. I doubt that by sticking to a "weenie" theme the deck will be competitive at all but I want to see where it can go.
Interesting, though I personally am iffy on the Wakedancer, how has she worked out? In my current idea, which is still being highly cut and tinkered with I am trying to use all zombies and possibly have Endless Ranks in there just to keep bolstering the forces.
Interesting, though I personally am iffy on the Wakedancer, how has she worked out? In my current idea, which is still being highly cut and tinkered with I am trying to use all zombies and possibly have Endless Ranks in there just to keep bolstering the forces.
Wakedancer is serving me well so far, though the other possible three drops that could go in her spot may end up being better (Cemetery Reaper, Unbreathing Horde of Ghoulraiser). Her most redeeming feature has so far, oddly enough, been deterrence. Bait your opponent to block or kill one of your current creatures and then drop her for morbid proc, makes some people think twice about blocking small creatures.
I'm in the making of a new zombie deck with the DKA zombie stars, gravecrawlers and geralfs messengers. I was wondering if it was worth it to add a Grimgrin, Corpse-born into the deck (just one) because of the possible synergy with the new reaccuring zombies. Also, I was wondering if I should run some mana leaks and forbidden alchemies, or should I just stick with black kill cards?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
zombies mages ftw
Standard:
horrible zombie death
red deck wins, with devils!
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
20 Swamp
Creatures (24)
4 Vault Skirge
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Gravecrawler
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Fume Spitter
4 Liliana Of The Veil
4 Lashwrithe
4 Bump In The Night
RADAMARO, FIRST TO DESIRER
UKEFNET THE MINDFULU
GSASAYA, OROCHI ASCENDANTG
MODERN
RMONO-RED ELDRAZIR
I agree with absolutely everything you've said here.
I don't understand how people in here are talking about turning an aggro deck into a combo deck with 5 and 6 CMC spells and no draw spells.
RB Zombies is the fastest, and possibly, the most powerful. I tested for something like 5 hours against various decks on Friday, and was destroying everything. A couple of the decks weren't really updated, like UW Delver/Pike, and Wolf Run Red, but I don't think those decks are gaining much if anything.
BW Tokens matchup is easy enough once ratchet bombs are brought in and Incinerates and Fume Spitters out. Between 8 sweeper effects in Arc Trail and Ratchet Bomb, they can't keep up. The goal though, is to keep a hand with at least 1, 1 drop, and an Arc Trail and/or Ratchet Bomb. After you wipe the board the first time, they are going to be way behind, seeing as how they don't have the same speed as this deck.
Wolf Run Red isn't even a matchup. Drop a couple early guys, hopefully a Messenger or Gravecrawler in there somewhere, and then hold up removal or Act of Aggression for their Titan. GG. They don't interact well with us at all, as their sweepers don't really hurt. Arc Trail against them is fairly weak, but that's what sideboarding is for. This matchup is not RB Vamps vs. Valakut, as Wolf Run is far slower.
Wolf Run Green is more difficult as they can drop a Dungrove early. Luckily, we have Geth's Verdict mainboard, and run enough ways to take out a turn 1 Bird. The second Dungrove can be much more difficult to deal with than the first, and makes the matchup fairly poor. Luckily for us, Wolf Run Green isn't being played at all, because it dies hard to Delver, WB tokens, and any halfway decent control deck. I could see sideboarding Sword of Feast and Famine if this deck gets popular.
UW Delver can't keep up with the speed of this deck either. All you have to do against them, is make sure they don't get an equipment hit in. That's all. Every single game against him, I would have him at 10-12 life by turn 3 or 4, while I'm still sitting at 17 or 18. Gut Shot and Vapor Snag are both dead cards against this deck, and don't really do anything about tempo, because RB Zombies tempo is just faster, as all the spells are cheaper.
Side Note: And yes, Cemetery Reaper is really really good against Moorland Haunt decks, but only if you are aggressive enough. If you can force them into a position where they have to tap out to deal with your threats, then you'll be able to steal their dead creatures. Sure, you can't respond to it, but when I was testing, I ended up exiling their graveyard guy a lot on my turn as a way to limit their options. It also opens up cool plays, like forcing them to respond to your Reaper ability with Moorland Haunt. Then, since it is still your turn, you can Arc Trail the token and a Delver (or whatever). Don't forget about his usefulness against Solar Flare style decks, and the Grixis Lich combo decks. And of course, he basically gives every zombie in the list undying (bring it back as a 2/2 and it gets +1/+1). Reaper is far more useful than you guys are giving him credit for.
Reaper being a mana sink is the whole idea. He is a late game creature that comes down, and adds a bunch of extra threats to the board after your early guys ate all the removal. These decks are missing a way to use our mana efficiently in the later stages of the game, so having a way to dump 3 mana a turn for a 3/3 is pretty sweet.
Granted, with Blue zombies, he is anti-synergistic. But the Blue zombies seem to not really add much to the aggressive strategy anyways, and lend themselves to a much slower, late game combo strategy. Sadly, that strategy is easily disrupted and really not that powerful. It won't be good in this highly aggro format.
RB Vamps = Non-deck/Too slow
Werewolves = Tool slow/non-interactive
Control Decks = We have yet to see what they are really going to be, as their tools will have to be selected due to the rest of the metagame. Expect early Esper Control, Solar Flare, UW Control, and UB Control decks. None of them will be optimized, so it should be easy pickings.
TLDR: RB Zombies beats all the other aggro decks out there easily. With exception to WB tokens, which is closer to a 60/40 or 55/45 matchup.
I guess I should be the bearer of bad news. Counter spells are actually bad right now. There are so many aggro decks out there, that cards that kill creatures are just infinitely better. Why do you think the Delver decks and Blue based control decks are cutting Mana Leaks? Why do Control decks side out Mana Leaks against aggro?
As for new cards I'd like to test:
Phyrexian Metamorph - As a more expensive Phantasmal Image to copy Messenger.
Postmortem Lunge - To bring a Messenger back from the grave one last time, and if I have a sac outlet, or Geth's Verdict, he comes back again. Even without that though, a 3/2 haste creature with shock attached for only :3mana::sympb: reminds me a tiny bit of Bloodbraid Elf.
Also planning to remove the 2 Reapers I was running as well as all 4 of the Fume Spitters, and replace them with 4 Black Cats and 2 Go For the Throat. The cats are just too good not to run; every time I take them out I wish I hadn't, and every time I run them the discard effect works wonders. As for the Reapers, I have never had a game that lasts long enough to even want to use the Reaper's token ability, and invariably I just end up wishing he was a Captain instead. Also -1 Tragic Slip, +1 Vapor Snag. Snag has proven to be invaluable in all the games I've played since mainboarding it.
Oh, and -1 Swamp +1 Island. I was having a very hard time hitting my land drops tonight for some reason.
Current version:
4 Gravecrawler
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Black Cat
4 Diregraf Captain
4 Geralf's Messenger
3 Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
2 Go For the Throat
3 Tragic Slip
4 Geth's Verdict
4 Vapor Snag
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Drowned Catacomb
12 Swamp
4 Island
Zombie tokens work great especially with parallel lives and army of the damned
of course im goign to get called a noob and junk for the idea but at least try it
Zombie Apocalypse deserves at least 1 sideboard slot for Human decks in my opinion
Parallel Lives Abuse
Zombie tokens in action
I disagree, I'm sure there are plenty of reasons why adding U is better than not. Even if it means playing tempo until UB just has a better board.
I strongly agree that our two drops suck, Black Cat is the best one, but even that feels lacking. However you can't possibly just call all two drops "sub-par"; I will represent Spellskite, again, he is an above average creature and he protects the important pieces on your board (if you choose to play them; to which you don't seem to want to) in addition to blocking Geralf's Messenger quite nicely.
Also, Skinrender is not bad. He isn't the most appealing four drop, but he is a Zombie and does a good deal of work.
I'm not sure I understand this statement.
I really don't think that's a fair statement. He could be running on a strict budget or just not have the capacity to brew the way an entire thread of posters does. Maybe he wants a super fun tribal deck to play casually, there are a myriad of reasons why a deck built by one person with no representation could have a "sub-par" deck. (In quotes to denote the current bias of the word in the context of this competitive forum.)
Edit: Wow... So much happened when I started typing this. Give me time!!
Second Edit/Next response:
That's fair, there are a ton of aggro decks in the format. It's why I like Spellskite so much right now! He blocks everything that we would care about except Obliterator. Dropping the Leaks from my last list means little because I had none... I used Negate, so your point remains very very valid.
At the two drop spot the deck can still drop the Negates for Doom Blade or other removal, that's not a hard connection to make. Going further than that could matter, but it could not.
____________
It was brought up that these mid-range/control decks are trying to do all this without any draw engines; well... Ya, I mentioned that in one of my previous posts. It's of no surprise... It's something I'm dealing with and will maybe overcome. I had a list in the spoilers thread about just straight up taking the UB control shell and making it Zombies because there are some other cool interactions; I could go back to that build but I like the creature heavy one more.
More Editing!!!: Apparently my list from post two-fifty-one was edited by me at some point... I added Mana Leaks? So, ya. I have eight slots to remove and add in things if Counter Magic is so bad.
"Reveal a Dragon"
I have several draw spells in my deck and only 3 5cmc cards that usually get milled out
I don't like how any deck that doesn't strictly adhere to the most popular build in the thread automatically gets shot down and never receives any constructive criticism.
Let me know when your mono-black builds win a GP or a SCG, then I might give up on UB
Standard:
GU Prophet
Legacy:
WBU Shared Fate
Trades
What list did you end up with?
Wolf Run Conley (BG ramp) seems like a nightmare matchup for zombies.
Grave titan and Glissa shuts down any zombie offensive. Black zenith can kill anything, Curse shuts down crawlers.
What about humans?
what cards are you running in your RB zombies deck? im interested in what your saying that its the fastest.
what do you guys think of massacre wurm? i know he costs alot but landing one is like a black sun zenith
I really love the idea of running 1 or 2 Massacre Wurms, though I think the 3BBB cmc is prohibitive the same way that Mikaeus' is. I'll proxy up and see how it handles, just to try it out.
I've started being less impressed with Grimgrin; he was a game-winner repeatedly during the first day of testing I did with my B/u deck but since then he's been a dead draw in nearly every game. Will take him out for the next round of testing.
Things on my to-try list:
Phyrexian Obliterators back in mainboard. At first I didn't think the B/u mana base would support his BBBB cost, but in testing I've noticed that he actually would be playable fairly often. Will slot back in as a possible 2-of.
Ponder. One thing this deck DESPERATELY needs is card draw. Bloodgift Demon is something I'd love to try, but I'm looking for early-game CA and the demon's 5 cmc is way too high.
At least 1 Ghoulcaller's Chant back in mainboard. I took it out a few iterations back and have regretted it ever since.
Sword of War and Peace as a 2-of. Lashwrithe works wonders in mono-black, but I shudder to think of the havoc a sword-wielding zombie could wreak if given the chance.
I would say blue gives the most benefit of splashing a color. At first I didn't run Diregraf Captain, but he is a little better than I thought. His presence can change games, it won't always but it can.
Vapor Snag and Snapcaster have been fantastic for me. I have been running Mana Leaks, and they are decent. Sometimes I'm really glad I have them and sometimes I wish I was more aggro. I'll do some testing this week without them.
Ponder is awesome too. Digging for threats or mana fixing (almost always for geralf) really helps.
Don't worry. I'm not playing Mono Black.
From what I remember, you dropped Patriarch's Bidding late game, brought back all your Goblins, and smashed in for massive damage that same turn. Patriarch's Bidding was an instant win, 1 card combo. Grim Grim is a 3 card combo, which requires for 1 point of damage. AND you need to have all 3 of your combo pieces survive for a full turn to even pull it off. Please stop comparing these combos, as they are nowhere close to the same power level.
Well, it is a fast aggro list, with burn, and no spells that cost more than 3 CMC. See below for my current list.
BTW, Massacre Wurm is slow, clunky, and should be saved for control decks. I don't even think BSZ should be played in these styles of decks, that is, unless you are pushing your list into the control/combo direction. I think that a lot of people don't remember what a real aggro deck is anymore. 5+ CMC spells are for control and combo decks. The guys bringing Grim Grim into the list, are making their lists slow and combo-ish.
Honestly, I think we should split this thread up into an aggro thread, and a control/combo thread. I think this would focus the conversations in the right directions. The slower decks with Grim Grim, etc., would be the control/combo deck. While UB with only Images, Mono Black (CMC stop at 4), and Red/Black being the aggro decks.
I ended up feeling that the 2 drop was still lacking, and it seemed like I wanted to bring in Shrine of Burning Rage in nearly every single matchup. I moved 3 copies to the mainboard, and so far, it has been working really well. Its good against all the midrange decks and control decks that just don't have any way to really deal with it aside from Oring, which is usually only a 2-of mainboard. It also gives an extra bit of reach that pushes this deck over the edge.
4x Dragonskull Summit
2x Evolving Wilds
1x Mountain
12x Swamp
Creatures: 18
4x Gravecrawler
4x Diregraf Ghoul
1x Fume Spitter
1x Grim Lavamancer
4x Geralf's Messenger
4x Cemetery Reaper
4x Galvanic Blast
3x Faithless Looting
4x Arc Trail
2x Incinerate
3x Geth's Verdict
Artifacts: 3
3x Shrine of Burning Rage
2x Crush
4x Ratchet Bomb
1x Shrine of Burning Rage
2x Manic Vandal
2x Act of Aggression
1x Traitorous Blood
1x Geth's Verdict
2x Combust
Yes, the Jund Ramp deck that Conley put together is a difficult matchup, but not impossible. Saving removal spells for Titans is key, but since they have twice as many titans as I have removal spells that kill them, it makes the second titan very difficult to deal with. Boarding in Act of Aggression and Traitorous Blood help with this. Instant speed has been nice with AoA, as it leaves me with mana up on my turn to play burn, crack a shrine, or kill off the stolen creature. Traitorous Blood on the other hand, gives Trample, which is very very sweet when taking a Grave Titan or even a Glissa.
Oh yeah, and the Humans matchup still is good. They run more aggressive than WB tokens, but they still run right into Arc Trail. Honor of the Pure is the only real problem card in their list. That makes me want to side in Ratchet Bombs against them, especially since it can hit their tokens too. Honestly, I haven't seen a really competitive looking Humans list yet. I would appreciate being pointed to a good list, so I can get in some quality testing against it.
I still don't feel my list is finalized, but it sure is getting close.
Haha! Good to see you in here as well. I do like the idea of running Snapcaster and Vapor Snag in this deck. The blue black lists I have a problem with, are not that style. They are the ones that keep pushing the words "Grim-Grin" and "Combo". Those lists feel weak to me.
I'd really like to see what you come up with.
4x Drowned Catacomb
11x Swamp
3x Island
4x Gravecrawler
4x Diregraf Ghoul
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Geralf's Messenger
4x Geth's Verdict
4x Mana Leak
1x Gravepurge
2x Dismember
3x Gitaxian Probe
3x Ponder
1x Negate
It kinda played like Delver without Delver. Like I said Mana Leaks were key some games but useless others. It had issues with mainly tokens. Humans weren't the greatest match up either but not as bad as tokens.
And again this is an old version, it's significantly different now.
EDIT: Building an optimal list requires time and a lot of testing so I'm sure it'll change even more the next couple weeks. Thus, no point in posting my current list anyway. =]
Good point. In that case, what about Mortarpod, Viridian Claw, Trepanation Blade, or Swiftfoot Boots (mostly to protect the Messengers, who have a giant bullseye on their faces for targetted removal)?
If you're running blue with the Captain, Mortarpod can quickly get out of hand. I also like Sylvok Lifestaff
Standard:
GU Prophet
Legacy:
WBU Shared Fate
Trades
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=299420
Yah definitely. I play a couple in my latest version.
My "Zombie Delver" deck played very well. It's possibly better than regular delver vs control due to resiliency. It's issue with tokens and humans though was the fact that none of my creats had evasion like real delver does.
The deck itself interacted beautifully though. Verdicts, snags, messengers, and snappy damage REALLY adds up quickly. So I'm definitely on the right track, just needs a lot more tuning.
4 diregraf ghoul
4 gravecrawler
2 cemetary reaper
3 army of the damned
2 moan of the unhallowed
3 gitaxian probe
4 geth's verdict
4 caravan vigil
2 doom blade
4 vault fo the archangel
4 isolated chapel
8 swamp
5 forest
3 plains
Parallel Lives Abuse
Zombie tokens in action
I dunno. Due to budget issues, I like the idea of going mono black (I can't afford tons of dual lands/snapcasters/phantasmal images). I thought about it all day, and I figure maybe Mortarpod isn't such a bad idea for a 2-drop. It's a blocker in a pinch, and may be able to do those last points of damage. Plus, the possible interactions with Tragic Slip amuse me.
Then again, I don't really play standard much; I just want a reason to show off my 4x Gravecrawler.
Why are you running Vault of the Archangel here? You have zero white mana sources.
I really want to make a Zombie weenie deck. Right now my deck is at a point where it is able to get close to victory in every game but it just runs out of gas mid game. Most of the games I play I can get my opponent to between 8 and 12 life in the first few turns without taking much damage myself, but then things just go pear shaped and I lose with my opponents still between 5 and 10 life. I doubt that by sticking to a "weenie" theme the deck will be competitive at all but I want to see where it can go.
4 Diregraf Captain
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Gravecrawler
3 Black Cat
3 Wakedancer
3 Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
2 Geralf's Messenger
Spells (13):
3 Vapor Snag
2 Tragic Slip
2 Tribute to Hunger
2 Go for the Throat
2 Geth's Verdict
2 Ghoulcaller’s Chant
2 Mortarpod
Land (22):
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Drowned Catacomb
2 Island
12 Swamp
3 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Increasing Ambition
2 Call to the Grave
2 Zombie Apocalypse
2 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
2 Curse of Death’s Hold
3 Despise
GW Aggro
EDH:
BUG Damia Landfall
RW [Primer] Brion Stoutarm
R Bosh's Bash
Interesting, though I personally am iffy on the Wakedancer, how has she worked out? In my current idea, which is still being highly cut and tinkered with I am trying to use all zombies and possibly have Endless Ranks in there just to keep bolstering the forces.
Standard
WBGWBGABZAN AGGROWBGWBG
sorry editted a little bit x.x
Parallel Lives Abuse
Zombie tokens in action
Wakedancer is serving me well so far, though the other possible three drops that could go in her spot may end up being better (Cemetery Reaper, Unbreathing Horde of Ghoulraiser). Her most redeeming feature has so far, oddly enough, been deterrence. Bait your opponent to block or kill one of your current creatures and then drop her for morbid proc, makes some people think twice about blocking small creatures.
GW Aggro
EDH:
BUG Damia Landfall
RW [Primer] Brion Stoutarm
R Bosh's Bash
Standard:
horrible zombie death
red deck wins, with devils!
EDH:
:symu::symb: Grimgrin Corpse-Born :symu::symb:
Squee, Goblin Nabob