If we want this thread to go anywhere, our responses should refer anyhow to what has already been said.
Ok...
What's the most important is to define the deck's plan(...) So, what is Zombies' plan? From my experience, it is playing a war of attrition, but not of the sort control decks do, but the field presence. Zombies are given many tools to maintain persistent board presence and this should be the core of the deck. Keeping the board in your favor no matter what and slowly overwhelming your opponent through exhaustion(...)
I totally agree ! There is two ways I have seen that can achieve this goal. By bringing back the dead or by putting a lot on the table or simply, a mix of both...
1cmc - Diregraf Ghoul - A 2/2 for 1 that is really good turn 1 play. Especially as there are very few things the deck can do early.
2cmc - Walking Corpse - A bear. This bear is the reason why Zombies can't be an aggro dedk. Because it is a 2/2 for 2 that does nothing. Bad cards don't validate a gameplan.
3cmc - Cemetery Reaper - A must include lord that not only boosts other folks but creates board CA and deals with Unburial Rites shenanigans.
I feel like these 3 creatures are the only way to start controlling the battlefield. Because there is no other 2cmc zombie creature, we have no other choice then using Walking Corpse, well maybe until DKA.
- Adaptive Automaton - Another possible lord that is worth looking at when you have some spots left.
- Ghoulraiser is the next best Zombie is T2 at this moment. Bringing back creature is just what we need to outnumber opponents. Random doesn't mean much, we are playing just good creatures, right?
- Unbreathing Horde - What's important, this is a defensive card. Why? Because its ability protects him while making him less useful on the offence. Anyway, if you have lots of creatures in your graveyard, you're doing it wrong. Other than that, he is just a beater with no evasion. Playable only with Lashwrithe.
- Phyrexian Crusader - Infect is not our plan, so the only place for him I see is the sb against RDW.
Because we can bring back the dead with Ghoulcaller's Chant and the plan is to outnumber our opponents, I feel like Ghoulraiser might be good if we need more raise dead, but not Adaptive Automaton and not Phyrexian Crusader ether. Unbreathing Horde could save our ass against deathtouch, lifelink and infect. You are right, it is a good defensive card, but it can become pretty dangerous if it comes in the late game.
4cmc - Skinrender - At first I thought he was going to be a perfect fit, but I find myself boarding him out many times. Anyway, in this deck creature+removal is always of some good value.
- Gravedigger - Ghoulraiser does the job so much better, but if you feel like you need more of this effect, go for it. You can't go wrong with CA.
- Moan of the Unhallowed is a token making spell, hence placed here. What makes it much better than our fellow zombie-bear? Numbers. It is a 2 for 1, because your opponent needs 2 shocks/ w/e to kill it. Secondly, with a lord this turns into two 3/3s, which is pretty nice. Thirdly, you are going to drag this game to the late point and that flashback is going to win you that game.
I've tried without Skinrender many times, but I just keep bringing it back in the deck, it saved my ass so many times. I'm not sure for Gravedigger, we already have Ghoulcaller's Chant and Ghoulraiser. If we put another of those card, we will find ourselves with cards that can't use there abilities to often. Plus, there is a lot of good 4 cmc, so there is not much room for it without raising to much our global casting cost.
5cmc - Vengeful Pharaoh exterminates the field nicely, and when he dies he kills again only to come back to the field later. On stable board, excellent tide-turner. Otherwise, threat blocker.
6cmc - Grave Titan as good as board crowding effect can be, he will get you out of any trouble and win the game on his own.
7cmc - Sheoldred, Whispering One is a decent inclusion as a 1-of, if it sticks... you win.
8cmc - Army of the Damned - the definite "I WIN" card, also 1-of at best.
I think all of those cards are good but since I feel like there is not much room left at this point, we must make a choice. Vengeful Pharaoh is not a winning card, so I'll pass. Grave Titan is a winning card and it have the lowest cmc from all of the rest, so I see no reason to wait more turns to win my game. To bad for Army of the Damned that looked like I cool card to play : (
REMOVAL: Go for the Throat, Doom Blade, Geth's Verdict, Tribute to Hunger and Victim of Night are all playable, but don't overcommit your deckspace to it. Keep in mind that you should overpower/outnumber the lesser threats and remove only those that really need to be gone. Remember Skinrender and Liliana count as removal too.
You might be right, but I can tell you that I have lost many times because of enchantments and artifacts so I feel like putting some green naturalize and/or beast within might help as well. And what about dismember ? It's my favorite removal at the moment. It can kill the indestructible, it can cost 1 colorless and it doesn't care if you are an artifact or a black creature. And if there is a 6/6 on the table, well, it makes your 2/2 able to block/kill it without dying.
DISRUPTION: Distress - The 2-drop. I said before you want to drag on the game, this ensures your opponent doesn't play something more threatening than you. Despise - In aggro-heavy metas could be a good replacement for Distress, but usually the lower cost is not worth the risk to miss. Smallpox - Could be nasty with all the token production and graveyard recursion, needs building around, but can be a backbone of one of the competitive zombie decks. Keep an eye on it. Mind Rot - I have zero experience with that, on paper looks decent, but only testing can prove or invalidate that.
I don't really like those cards. When I play one, the opponent just plays something else. And worst of all, if I don't play it at the right time, with only black in my deck, I just can't deal with Artifacts, Enchantments and Planeswalkers. So instead, I am testing with more black removal and beast within... : ) If you play only black, you don't have other choice, but if you play another color, I suggest you find something else, if not for replacement, at least to complete.
RECURSION: - Ghoulcaller's Chant is simply brilliant. If you ever considered Altar's Reap, this is better, because it draws you two threats.
It's true, Ghoulcaller's Chant is simply brilliant, but not Altar's Reap, well, it never helped me. Minus 2 cards to draw 2 cards. I've tried it for some time and will never put it back. On the other and, I have put green in my deck, and I'm trying with mulch witch look much better in my point of view.
OTHERS: - Liliana of the Veil goes well with everything you can have. Edict effect, imbalanced discard (flashback stuff, dead disruption, Pharaoh, dumps zombies to GY so you can bring them back for free with Chant or Raiser).
- Endless Ranks of the Dead - so, very, uglily conditional. This creates board presence when you already have it, which makes it not worth the investment.
- Call to the Grave while very slow and hardly any useful against aggro, could be decent out of the sideboard surprise against slower decks.
- Lashwrithe - not a zombie, good choice that limits you to mono black and forces somewhat more synergistic deck building (less consistent). Needs extensive testing with and without Unbreathing Horde.
I agree with about everything there except Endless Ranks of the Dead. I know it's not as good as it look like, but if you take it the right way, it can turn the power. For example, I'm making some test with blunt the assault (you should know by now that I play B/G lol), and it can gives Endless Ranks of the Dead the time it needs to make the difference.
OTHER COLORS: Blue offers Forbidden Alchemy that digs for answers/more threats with relevant flashback and fills your graveyard with goodness. Nephalia Drownyard is also viable for self-mill. Green: Glissa, the Traitor? 3/3 first-striker that kills anything. 3cmc is already clogged... so no from me. White: Unburial Rites is definitely worth considering given that Liliana can dump cards like Grave Titan early.
Yea, you got it, I think green is needed to make the zombies deck works and it's not because of Glissa, the Traitor... : )
Final thought on the gameplan: Listen to Mikaeus:
Let them have it - wave after wave until our rotten comrades eat their brains out.
Test and report folks, let's make this deck real.
Report made captain ! What are your thought about my thought about your... well, just let me know...
this is my first list after the spoilers i want to test it as soon as possible, i was pleying goblins tribal before this, but altough the deck is not bad, red did'nt got anything amazing but the new vandal and hellrider which is lame...
and i was already piloting a monoblack zombies as secondary deck just waiting for DA (since before thaat the deck was terrible)
From the DKA zombie thread: (it got closed and all)
Is everybody seeing zombies as pure aggro? With some card draw (altar's reap) and/or recursion (ghoulcaller's chant) we could make use out of rooftop storm. It being on the field with Grimgrin Corpse-Born and gravecrawler in the graveyard means grimgrin goes infinite. If diregraf captain is on the field, we don't even have to attack. Of course that all goes to sh-- if they drop the cage.
As it stands, I don't think we are aggro. I'm seeing mid-range with an awkward early phase where we basically can't block.
That said, I'll be main boarding Spellskite as my two drop along side some removal/counter.
I plan on playing into a defensive mid game opposed to an offensive one, the printing of Geralf's Messenger and Diregraf Captain makes for some nuts life swings just for blocking. The Captain literally makes the deck nearly impossible to board wipe, they risk losing a life for every Zombie killed. Spellskite will jack up my ability to keep the Captains safe, as will Mikaeus (who is the most amazing thing this deck can have).
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed alone makes Spellskite a four of, the lack of a solid two drop makes Spellskite a two or three of; why aren't we all just planning on playing six to eight Skites?
Captain turns Grimgrin into a surprise nuke and fatty, Mikaeus allows you to do this while pumping your board instead of killing it, Spellskite protects them all... again. The only hard thing about Spellskite protecting Black creatures is that Doom Blade doesn't matter and Go for the Throat can't redirect to Skite.
I'm shocked and appalled that every list doesn't just have Mikaeus in it (this was more relevant before the spoiler discussion was closed), he prevents a board wipe!! He. Stops. Day. If they do wipe anyway (because they can double up maybe), they just freaking lost! Captain(s) will blow their faces off.
I've considered the interactions between Zombie Infestation and Vengeful Pharaoh in that your opponent can attack and you discard in response, but it just seems to cute for the deck. If you would like to try this combo out, I recommend also having Forbidden Alchemy so you can ditch those Pharaoh back in the yard while you dig at instant speed.
This is how I want to win. The question is how do I get there?
Diregraf Captain makes Zombies powerful; remember Vengeful Dead? This guy nets you one life less, costs less, and has a lord effect.
Edit: Heartless Summoning? Don't be silly, I wouldn't play less than three.
More Editing: Carnifex Demon can't die while Mikaeus is in play, he also resets all the counters on your guys so they can use Undying more. It's not essential, but it could make for some impossibly hard to destroy board positions.
Bleh, I hate that they insist on throwing everything together like this. The deck the OP posted is going for a totally different idea than what most other zombie decks are going for. Rooftop Storm is another totally different idea. I'm totally not saying they're bad, but it just seems like it's doing everyone a disservice to lump them all together meaning that people who do want to discuss their own deck don't get as much feedback because they're off topic and it's just clutter to the people who don't wanna see it.
That aside, Zombiez is looking pretty fly right about now. I personally dig the straight forward mono black aggro take on the deck.
Mono black is wrong. At the moment it doesn't cover your weaknesses enough, not too mention you're going to need to need to up your mana slightly in order to play Curse, which i'm sure you're aware, is going to be essential..
Increase your amount of lands, play U/B, you then have access to a potential 2 more lords and much greater versatility while improving your game against the best deck/decks in the field...
Any deck with moorland haunt and B/W tokens..
Playing U/B and increasing your land count allows you to up your curve slightly, use your mana more efficiently.
A straight up creature beat down won't work, the deck isn't fast enough, not compared with red, steel, humans or delver...
At a more positive not, upping your curve gives you a nice little trick unique to this archetype - Zombie Apocalypse -
Imagine going toe to toe with Humans, they have hero, crusader, all cards that can wreck you face, then trumping them with this bad boy - Oh look my guys are back and your's are dead - Oh i have a curse to, you can't make spirit tokens
i don't know what the hell you are talking about.
Do you mean "curse of the deathold?... if you do, there is something called pressure, if you put enough, good opposing creatures stop attacking.
which 2 more lords?... i see only one and it is not really good to commit with a second color and if you play more lands you draw more lands and that is not good for aggro as far as i know.
black has answers to disrupt everything but an active shrine... we still dont know how good or fast the deck will be since the numbers are practically untested, but 8 1 drops with 2 power seems pretty fast to me, specially when we add a t2 evasive and an enchanment that provides instant speed zombies and monoblack zombies has access to a whole lot of resilient creatures, doing it ub probably will lead you to exile them.
with cemetery reaper you can make zombies 3/3 tokens and leave them without spirit tokens
zombie apocalypse... i dont know...
... if i play beatdown i dont care about sweepers i just use spot removal on what is dangerous.
maybe i'm wrong but i wouldn't even slash for the lord if i have 3 quality 3 drops (horde, messenger, reaper).
1) Keep the curve low (under 3)
2) Don't get cute with snapcasters which messes your mana base. We want BBB for messenger on turn 3 reliably. Likewise we want BB for verdict if a geist hits the table while we're on the draw.
3) Ponder + Evolving Wilds is nice.
4) Having a two drop isn't that important since we run leak and verdict. Our turn two can be a second one-drop and dismember as well.
5) We want all 8 3-drop lords. Diregraf captain gives amazing inevitability and makes blocking gravecrawler a lose/lose situation. Cemetary reaper does a pretty good moorland haunt impersonation, and fights theirs at the same time.
6) Sideboard obviously depends on your metagame. I think Skinrender is somewhat weak in a BW token and UW delver meta.
7) Drownyard and Alchemy are too slow and durdly and likely not where we want to be.
8) I like image, I just don't know where to fit it.
Later I ended up cutting 2 verdicts, 1 slip, and 1 dismember for 4 phantasmal image.
Regarding Mikeaus: Can you please explain how a 6 mana creature stops a 4 mana sorcery? By turn 6, we want to be winning the game vs. control not worrying about whether they're going to wrath the board or not. We can also set-up a game state where wrath is just bad for them (with messengers and captains).
One interesting point. Non-red zombies will have a helluva time dealing with elite inquisitor. Humans is still a deck you know. If you add that "tap: remove creature from GY" guy and crusader it seems that humans will be a nightmare matchup.
Therefore highborn is probably mandatory inclusion.
I want to express my dissatisfaction with just locking "the old zombies! thread". This thread is totally different and there was live discusion in that old thread. It should be moved here.
Okaaay, some thoughts of mine.
First of - I wouldn't mix Skaabs and Zombies. They are antisynergic. Skaabs want to exile things from GY, Zombies want things in GY. You can mix them so that they do not interfere as much, but you won't get full potential from Skaabs. To play Skaabs well you would need blue selfmill creature heavy deck.
Manabase:
I wouldn't play Evolving Wilds, at least not 4-of. In two-color deck with two different dual lands this is not the greatest idea. It's worse than both dual lands in any case.
Creatures:
1CMC Gravecrawler and Diregraf Ghoul are obvious, however I don't think that 4-of Diregrafs is a must.
2CMC
Now this is hard, because Highborn Ghoul is just bad. Against aggro, and especially RDW, he will die easily because of 1 toughness. Against control decks he does not need intimitade. He's only upside is that he actually can block the turn he came, lol.
And Screeching Skaab is even worse, so I don't consider him at all. I don't think that in this deck selfmill is a value.
I really like the idea of Phantasmal Image + Geralf's Messenger. The problem is that you need Messenger on field, so you won't be casting Image T2. And I think we are considering here our T2 drop right? Black Cat seems a bit meh too. Its random discard so may turn out well and it will get all tribal-merits, but I think I just prefer Distress. Snapcaster Mage is great in this deck, because most of our noncreature spells are <= 2 CMC and he can activate morbid of Tragic Slip. But he is not T2 drop. I guess that for T2 I will be playing noncreature spells. Distress maybe.
3CMC
Now this one is crowded as hell.
I'd get full pack of Messenger's as they seem great and probably six lords. Now which ones are tough call. Probably 4 Diregraf Captain / 2 Cemetery Reaper or 3 / 3. Anyway, I'd put in sideboard enough Cemetery Reapers to have full 4 in 75 total. I'd side in them vs Moorlands or Solar Flares. Problem with Reaper is - as I stated in the begining - that in this deck you don't want to exile things from GY. Gravecrawler returns, Messenger is awesome, Lords are awesome and should be brought back to the battlefield.
4CMC Phyrexian Obliterator, 'nuff said. 3-of probably.
5CMC Grimgrin, Corpse-Born. Not much competition here too tbh. This + lord + gravecrawler is B: target player loses 1 life. I know that this does not sound impressive for a 3 card combo but - this is not a combo deck. This synergy comes naturally by choosing best cards at given CMC slots.
6CMC+
Nah, I wouldn't play them. Not really much other than Titan there. We have enough creatures anyway.
As far as noncreature spells goes, my fav's are: Tragic Slip - great great card, especially in meta full of X/1 drops. Dismember - I don't agree that it doesn't fit black deck, its non coditional, can be 1 mana, however it does not kill everything... but Tragic Slip does Geth's Verdict - kill creature and ping for 1 dmg? With enough of spot removal and aggro attitude this should target the creatures we want and also can kill hexproof things. I think it's better than Go for the Throat, Doom Blade, but should be sided out for Ratchet Bombs if facing tokens. Distress - this card is pain in the ass played T2 and is one of our counters to Cage (Steel Sabotage (after sb of course) + Distress?). Ghoulcaller's Chant - I think this one should be 3- or 4-of. For merely one mana it get us back to hand two creatures from our GY. You can bring Grimgrin and a lord. Or you can bring Obliterator after it had been countered. Undying Evil - this card I am not sure of. Seems neat but I don't think this deck can utilize it to the max. Altar's Reap - there has been a discussion on this card in Geralf's Messenger thread and I am not really sure if that card should be included. The truth is that in black there is no good draw atm. Mana Leak - if you have blue in deck, you must have mana leaks
Other thingies:
I don't like planeswalkers. I don't like Liliana in this deck. I don't want to discard cards and for removal I have better options.
I don't like Zombie Infestation. Same reasons as above. I think there are not enough worthy cards to be discarded. Only Gravecrawlers tbh.
Also mono black is an option too. Blue doesn't add that much to the party except of some countering, Grimgin and the lord.
If mono black I'd go with 4x Obliterators, some Lashwrithes (maybe 2-3) and Vengeful Pharaoh. Instead of Mana Leaks I'd put even more discard and removal.
GftT maybe should be replaced by Dismember.
2 CMC creature drop maybe should be replaced by something else.
These are my main doubts.
Please let me know what you think, this is important to me as I am pretty new to this game and I'd appreciate any help so I can make better assumptions and better decks in future
@JollyTheOctopuss: I am pretty sure you meant Geralf's Messenger in your decklist, right?
Non-red zombies have spot removals for Inquisitor. Thraben Heretic will have to be spot removed too, however Mirran Crusader will certainly be very painful. But nothing we can't handle with Black Sun's Zenith (i know it's kinda suicide ;))
Quoted for Truth! That's QFT. And thank you for reposting this, a primer of sorts is quite nice.
I'll repeat myself (plus some) in response to your missing creatures. (Also because of the thread lock.)
Spellskite is going to be our best two drop. We want a creature that can keep us alive until we can really just unleash a stupid amount of power (unless you are aggro :facepalm:). To top it off Mikaeus, the Unhallowed (the missing six drop) and Spellskite protect each other with a very good amount of synergy.
Adding Snapcaster will be next to useless because we won't have to many spells to flashback and he is a Human with no synergy. Image is good, I like that plan but is it enough two drops? Everything else looks very lack luster at the two drop spot.
At the three drop Diregraf Captain is literally your best choice. Unbreathing Horde is good but only in the Red Zone (or blocking); the Captain makes all your Zombies into life points for your opponent. Get twenty Zombies killed in the presence of a Captain, win. I know that's quite a few, but you will also undoubtedly be doing other things (like winning the board).
I'd probably move mpost of the removal suit to the SB, Zombies will just have more guys so theirs will not matter. Bring in more Negate (maybe even Mana Leak) to protect yourself from not creatures. I like Distress, though I'm sad Despise is not Duress (Curse you format!!)
Anyway, I like the general idea; just think it needs some key changes.
This list will put you pretty close to having as much creature attrition as possible while keeping a good curve with relevant drops all the way up to Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. The Dragonskulls are obviously just a gambit.
Hey, could we agree to the splitting of the zombies thread into the 3 potential archetypes of Bx Zombie Swarm, UB Skaab, and UB Zombie Combos? Then we could have relevant discussions about the appropriate decks without causing so much clutter. If needed, I could start new threads. I think this one's pretty devoted to the Bx Swarm deck, so just ones for Skaab and Combo. Sound good?
Hey, could we agree to the splitting of the zombies thread into the 3 potential archetypes of Bx Zombie Swarm, UB Skaab, and UB Zombie Combos? Then we could have relevant discussions about the appropriate decks without causing so much clutter. If needed, I could start new threads. I think this one's pretty devoted to the Bx Swarm deck, so just ones for Skaab and Combo. Sound good?
Somewhere inside the Bx crowd (I'm assuming that's where I stand) there is an Aggro crowd and a "mid-range to control crowd". Just want to get that out there.
Zombies are very very versatile; there will be a huge number of potential decks that come forth from them. The mods will likely not split the thread until one of the decks shows that it's worth something (everyone pray it's your own ;)). So until Zombies make a showing, this thread likely won't change.
Hi everyone, I've been thinking about an U/B build, and my question is how do we get rid of grafdigger's cage? Distress is an option but the cage can enter before we discard it obviously...is Mental Misstep worth siding in just for this? And how much big of a problem Cage actually is?
I honestly might board Mental Misstep if the tempo decks remain strong. Otherwise Ratchet bomb is your only hope for killing it while it's in play.
I just met a guy who was testing zombie pox. I can safely say that messenger+pox is PRETTY NICE. the deck laughs at UW humans and illusions, and has boarded obliterators for rdw and targeted discard for control. smallpox really awesome with gravecrawler too, and is a great way to generate CA. messenger really feels like kitchen finks, if kitchen finks was a flametongue cavu that shocked to the dome and didnt`t trade with bears.
Hi everyone, I've been thinking about an U/B build, and my question is how do we get rid of grafdigger's cage? Distress is an option but the cage can enter before we discard it obviously...is Mental Misstep worth siding in just for this? And how much big of a problem Cage actually is?
if you're UB, steel sabotage seems to be a much better sideboard card than MM in dealing with cage and other problematic artifacts. Even if it resolves, you can still bounce endstep and do a crucial turn.
This deck is using Altar's Reap in combination with Gravecrawler as an engine for card advantage. I'm surprised nobody else is doing this, it's really what makes this deck even possibly competitive. You need card advantage because this deck isn't faster or stronger than other decks. The one thing it has over other decks is resilience, with threats continually coming back. You need to refuel your hand in order to continue to pressure them.
The swords and mortarpod are something I think really should be more widely adopted. Mortarpod is a good combo with Diregraf Captain and Geralf's Messenger to burn an opponent out from a seemingly comfortable lifetotal. The sword means all of your creatures become must-answer threats, plus they give you something to do lategame when you've got mana to spare.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"That's the funny thing about free will. You don't feel any different without it."
EDH: RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted BUG Damia, Sage of Stone
WOW. That may be the best point I have ever seen against Highborn Ghoul. I was kind of thinking about using him, just because he has intimidate and synergy with zombies, but I opted to just not have a 2drop; not when there's a 1drop that's better than any zombie 2drop. I didn't realize JUST how bad the card was until you made this comparison. I'm sorry, but if it isn't good with FLYING doesn't make a 2/1 for 2 good, then intimidate DEFINITELY doesn't.
I still think Vault Skirge is the best black 2 drop.
And he makes me want to punch babies with all the vapor snags and gut shots.
Carries lashwrithe like a mother******* champion tho.
Dont get me wrong, im still prolly going to run Highborn.
But it isnt because he is good.
Its because he is the best of the crap.
Crap, I just might stick with those 2 Child of the Nights im running.
I already dont block in this aggro meta and get outraced.
All these new Zombies REALLY dont like to block either.
Ok...
I totally agree ! There is two ways I have seen that can achieve this goal. By bringing back the dead or by putting a lot on the table or simply, a mix of both...
I feel like these 3 creatures are the only way to start controlling the battlefield. Because there is no other 2cmc zombie creature, we have no other choice then using Walking Corpse, well maybe until DKA.
Because we can bring back the dead with Ghoulcaller's Chant and the plan is to outnumber our opponents, I feel like Ghoulraiser might be good if we need more raise dead, but not Adaptive Automaton and not Phyrexian Crusader ether. Unbreathing Horde could save our ass against deathtouch, lifelink and infect. You are right, it is a good defensive card, but it can become pretty dangerous if it comes in the late game.
I've tried without Skinrender many times, but I just keep bringing it back in the deck, it saved my ass so many times. I'm not sure for Gravedigger, we already have Ghoulcaller's Chant and Ghoulraiser. If we put another of those card, we will find ourselves with cards that can't use there abilities to often. Plus, there is a lot of good 4 cmc, so there is not much room for it without raising to much our global casting cost.
I think all of those cards are good but since I feel like there is not much room left at this point, we must make a choice. Vengeful Pharaoh is not a winning card, so I'll pass. Grave Titan is a winning card and it have the lowest cmc from all of the rest, so I see no reason to wait more turns to win my game. To bad for Army of the Damned that looked like I cool card to play : (
You might be right, but I can tell you that I have lost many times because of enchantments and artifacts so I feel like putting some green naturalize and/or beast within might help as well. And what about dismember ? It's my favorite removal at the moment. It can kill the indestructible, it can cost 1 colorless and it doesn't care if you are an artifact or a black creature. And if there is a 6/6 on the table, well, it makes your 2/2 able to block/kill it without dying.
I don't really like those cards. When I play one, the opponent just plays something else. And worst of all, if I don't play it at the right time, with only black in my deck, I just can't deal with Artifacts, Enchantments and Planeswalkers. So instead, I am testing with more black removal and beast within... : ) If you play only black, you don't have other choice, but if you play another color, I suggest you find something else, if not for replacement, at least to complete.
It's true, Ghoulcaller's Chant is simply brilliant, but not Altar's Reap, well, it never helped me. Minus 2 cards to draw 2 cards. I've tried it for some time and will never put it back. On the other and, I have put green in my deck, and I'm trying with mulch witch look much better in my point of view.
I agree with about everything there except Endless Ranks of the Dead. I know it's not as good as it look like, but if you take it the right way, it can turn the power. For example, I'm making some test with blunt the assault (you should know by now that I play B/G lol), and it can gives Endless Ranks of the Dead the time it needs to make the difference.
Yea, you got it, I think green is needed to make the zombies deck works and it's not because of Glissa, the Traitor... : )
Report made captain ! What are your thought about my thought about your... well, just let me know...
Zombie Apocolypse is our answer to white weenies and grave crawler is rapetrastic
No spoiler discussion here. That's what we created this for! Warning issued. - Madding
Parallel Lives Abuse
Zombie tokens in action
and i was already piloting a monoblack zombies as secondary deck just waiting for DA (since before thaat the deck was terrible)
2 ghost quarter
4 gravecrawler
4 diregraf ghoul
4 highborn ghoul
4 cemetery reaper
2 ghoulriser
2 geralf's messenger
2 unbreathing horde
2 skinrender
2 vengeful pharao
3 disstress
2 geths veredict
3 ghoulcaller's chant
2 doomblade
2 victim of the night
Chile!
I'll probably try a blue splash for the new lord which I think might be better than Reaper.
Is everybody seeing zombies as pure aggro? With some card draw (altar's reap) and/or recursion (ghoulcaller's chant) we could make use out of rooftop storm. It being on the field with Grimgrin Corpse-Born and gravecrawler in the graveyard means grimgrin goes infinite. If diregraf captain is on the field, we don't even have to attack. Of course that all goes to sh-- if they drop the cage.
this is because i think it would be better to go pure aggro...
we have 8 quality 1 drop, an evasive 2 drop and infestation for turn 2, and the messengers AND the lords for turn 3...
and the a pretty decent remova pack...
rooftop storm will be t5 at best and needs like 4 cards to work...
Chile!
4x diregraf ghoul
4x black cat
4x highborn ghoul
4x diregraf captain
4x cemetery reaper
3x geralf’s messenger
3x doom blade
3x mana leak
4x drowned catacomb
4x darkslick shores
16x swamp
Essentially, curve out aggressively as possible, then drop a lilly or use countermagic/removal to continue to pressure the opponent's lifetotal.
That said, I'll be main boarding Spellskite as my two drop along side some removal/counter.
I plan on playing into a defensive mid game opposed to an offensive one, the printing of Geralf's Messenger and Diregraf Captain makes for some nuts life swings just for blocking. The Captain literally makes the deck nearly impossible to board wipe, they risk losing a life for every Zombie killed. Spellskite will jack up my ability to keep the Captains safe, as will Mikaeus (who is the most amazing thing this deck can have).
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed alone makes Spellskite a four of, the lack of a solid two drop makes Spellskite a two or three of; why aren't we all just planning on playing six to eight Skites?
Captain turns Grimgrin into a surprise nuke and fatty, Mikaeus allows you to do this while pumping your board instead of killing it, Spellskite protects them all... again. The only hard thing about Spellskite protecting Black creatures is that Doom Blade doesn't matter and Go for the Throat can't redirect to Skite.
I'm shocked and appalled that every list doesn't just have Mikaeus in it (this was more relevant before the spoiler discussion was closed), he prevents a board wipe!! He. Stops. Day. If they do wipe anyway (because they can double up maybe), they just freaking lost! Captain(s) will blow their faces off.
I've considered the interactions between Zombie Infestation and Vengeful Pharaoh in that your opponent can attack and you discard in response, but it just seems to cute for the deck. If you would like to try this combo out, I recommend also having Forbidden Alchemy so you can ditch those Pharaoh back in the yard while you dig at instant speed.
This is how I want to win. The question is how do I get there?
Diregraf Captain makes Zombies powerful; remember Vengeful Dead? This guy nets you one life less, costs less, and has a lord effect.
Edit: Heartless Summoning? Don't be silly, I wouldn't play less than three.
More Editing: Carnifex Demon can't die while Mikaeus is in play, he also resets all the counters on your guys so they can use Undying more. It's not essential, but it could make for some impossibly hard to destroy board positions.
"Reveal a Dragon"
That aside, Zombiez is looking pretty fly right about now. I personally dig the straight forward mono black aggro take on the deck.
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Gravecrawler
4 Highborn Ghoul
4 Geralf's Captain
4 Cemetary Reaper
4 Lashwrithe
4 Doom Blade
3 Go For The Throat
3 Distress
3 Despise
Lands:
24 Swamp
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Ratchet Bomb
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
2 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Distress
i don't know what the hell you are talking about.
Do you mean "curse of the deathold?... if you do, there is something called pressure, if you put enough, good opposing creatures stop attacking.
which 2 more lords?... i see only one and it is not really good to commit with a second color and if you play more lands you draw more lands and that is not good for aggro as far as i know.
black has answers to disrupt everything but an active shrine... we still dont know how good or fast the deck will be since the numbers are practically untested, but 8 1 drops with 2 power seems pretty fast to me, specially when we add a t2 evasive and an enchanment that provides instant speed zombies and monoblack zombies has access to a whole lot of resilient creatures, doing it ub probably will lead you to exile them.
with cemetery reaper you can make zombies 3/3 tokens and leave them without spirit tokens
zombie apocalypse... i dont know...
... if i play beatdown i dont care about sweepers i just use spot removal on what is dangerous.
maybe i'm wrong but i wouldn't even slash for the lord if i have 3 quality 3 drops (horde, messenger, reaper).
Chile!
My thoughts on the deck:
1) Keep the curve low (under 3)
2) Don't get cute with snapcasters which messes your mana base. We want BBB for messenger on turn 3 reliably. Likewise we want BB for verdict if a geist hits the table while we're on the draw.
3) Ponder + Evolving Wilds is nice.
4) Having a two drop isn't that important since we run leak and verdict. Our turn two can be a second one-drop and dismember as well.
5) We want all 8 3-drop lords. Diregraf captain gives amazing inevitability and makes blocking gravecrawler a lose/lose situation. Cemetary reaper does a pretty good moorland haunt impersonation, and fights theirs at the same time.
6) Sideboard obviously depends on your metagame. I think Skinrender is somewhat weak in a BW token and UW delver meta.
7) Drownyard and Alchemy are too slow and durdly and likely not where we want to be.
8) I like image, I just don't know where to fit it.
4 Gravecrawler
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Cemetery Reaper
4 Diregraf Captain
4 Geth's Verdict
3 Tragic Slip
3 Dismember
4 Ponder
4 Drowned Catacomb
1 Island
9 Swamp
4 Evolving Wilds
Later I ended up cutting 2 verdicts, 1 slip, and 1 dismember for 4 phantasmal image.
Regarding Mikeaus: Can you please explain how a 6 mana creature stops a 4 mana sorcery? By turn 6, we want to be winning the game vs. control not worrying about whether they're going to wrath the board or not. We can also set-up a game state where wrath is just bad for them (with messengers and captains).
Therefore highborn is probably mandatory inclusion.
4 gravecrawler
4 diegraph captain
4 burning vengeance
1 devils play
4 brimstone volley
4 faithless looting
4 desperate ravings / ponder
4 zombie infestation
4 think twice
4 forbidden alchemy
4 ghoulcallers chant
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 evolving wilds
21 land total??
just a thought ive been having- dig and dig, ge tthe combo up with infestation/diegraph/grave, burning V for game. grin as finisher.
Quoted for Truth! That's QFT. And thank you for reposting this, a primer of sorts is quite nice.
I'll repeat myself (plus some) in response to your missing creatures. (Also because of the thread lock.)
Spellskite is going to be our best two drop. We want a creature that can keep us alive until we can really just unleash a stupid amount of power (unless you are aggro :facepalm:). To top it off Mikaeus, the Unhallowed (the missing six drop) and Spellskite protect each other with a very good amount of synergy.
Adding Snapcaster will be next to useless because we won't have to many spells to flashback and he is a Human with no synergy. Image is good, I like that plan but is it enough two drops? Everything else looks very lack luster at the two drop spot.
At the three drop Diregraf Captain is literally your best choice. Unbreathing Horde is good but only in the Red Zone (or blocking); the Captain makes all your Zombies into life points for your opponent. Get twenty Zombies killed in the presence of a Captain, win. I know that's quite a few, but you will also undoubtedly be doing other things (like winning the board).
Did I mention Mikaeus, the Unhallowed?
Black Sun's Zenith is a boon to a mid-range Zombie deck, it kills the whole board! Zombies are already dead, so they shouldn't mind being dead; that's why we have one or two copies of Zombie Apocalypse, or Mikaeus, the Unhallowed.
I ripped your deck out:
I'd probably move mpost of the removal suit to the SB, Zombies will just have more guys so theirs will not matter. Bring in more Negate (maybe even Mana Leak) to protect yourself from not creatures. I like Distress, though I'm sad Despise is not Duress (Curse you format!!)
Anyway, I like the general idea; just think it needs some key changes.
3 Cravecrawler
1 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Spellskite
2 Phantasmal Image
4 Diregraf Captain
1 Cemetery Reaper
3 Geralf's Messenger
3 Skinrender
2 Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
2 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
4 Negate
2 Ghoulcaller's Chant
2 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Zombie Apocalypse
Land 25
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Dragonskull Summit
5 Island
8 Swamp
3 Go for the Throat
3 Mana Leak
3 Crush (stupid cage)
3 Doom Blade
3 Ratchet Bomb
This list will put you pretty close to having as much creature attrition as possible while keeping a good curve with relevant drops all the way up to Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. The Dragonskulls are obviously just a gambit.
Did I mention Mikaeus, the Unhallowed?
"Reveal a Dragon"
Modern:
Tokens
Somewhere inside the Bx crowd (I'm assuming that's where I stand) there is an Aggro crowd and a "mid-range to control crowd". Just want to get that out there.
Zombies are very very versatile; there will be a huge number of potential decks that come forth from them. The mods will likely not split the thread until one of the decks shows that it's worth something (everyone pray it's your own ;)). So until Zombies make a showing, this thread likely won't change.
"Reveal a Dragon"
I honestly might board Mental Misstep if the tempo decks remain strong. Otherwise Ratchet bomb is your only hope for killing it while it's in play.
"Reveal a Dragon"
the list is over there
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28866121/Zombie_Pox_(Zombie_deck_with_DKA_Spoilers)?pg=last
is smallpox a viable way to turn this into some kind of suiblack?
if you're UB, steel sabotage seems to be a much better sideboard card than MM in dealing with cage and other problematic artifacts. Even if it resolves, you can still bounce endstep and do a crucial turn.
Here's my list. It's monoblack, splashing blue for the Diregraf Captain.
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Highborn Ghoul
4 Geralf’s Messenger
4 Cemetery Reaper
4 Diregraf Captain
3 Altar’s Reap
2 Sword of War and Peace
1 Mortarpod
2 Ghoulcaller’s Chant
3 Tragic Slip
2 Doom Blade
4 Drowned Catacomb
13 Swamp
2 Ghost Quarter
This deck is using Altar's Reap in combination with Gravecrawler as an engine for card advantage. I'm surprised nobody else is doing this, it's really what makes this deck even possibly competitive. You need card advantage because this deck isn't faster or stronger than other decks. The one thing it has over other decks is resilience, with threats continually coming back. You need to refuel your hand in order to continue to pressure them.
The swords and mortarpod are something I think really should be more widely adopted. Mortarpod is a good combo with Diregraf Captain and Geralf's Messenger to burn an opponent out from a seemingly comfortable lifetotal. The sword means all of your creatures become must-answer threats, plus they give you something to do lategame when you've got mana to spare.
EDH:
RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted
BUG Damia, Sage of Stone
Nope.
Still needs a good 2 drop.
Vampire Interloper still isnt good.
WOW. That may be the best point I have ever seen against Highborn Ghoul. I was kind of thinking about using him, just because he has intimidate and synergy with zombies, but I opted to just not have a 2drop; not when there's a 1drop that's better than any zombie 2drop. I didn't realize JUST how bad the card was until you made this comparison. I'm sorry, but if it isn't good with FLYING doesn't make a 2/1 for 2 good, then intimidate DEFINITELY doesn't.
Vampire Interloper isn't a zombie, though. Trust me, I know the card isn't great, but it's better than having a gaping hole in your curve.
Hopefully AVR will have something for the deck there.
EDH:
RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted
BUG Damia, Sage of Stone
And he makes me want to punch babies with all the vapor snags and gut shots.
Carries lashwrithe like a mother******* champion tho.
Dont get me wrong, im still prolly going to run Highborn.
But it isnt because he is good.
Its because he is the best of the crap.
Crap, I just might stick with those 2 Child of the Nights im running.
I already dont block in this aggro meta and get outraced.
All these new Zombies REALLY dont like to block either.
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Highborn Ghoul
4 Vault Skirge
4 Geralf's Messanger
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Lashwrithe
4 Tragic Slip
4 Geth's Verdict
1 Undying Evil
23 Swamp
This is what I think im going to run.
What I have been running...
4 Phyrixian Obliterator
3 Child of Night
4 Vault Skirge
3 Distress
4 Dark Favor
4 Geth's Verdict
3 Go for the throat
4 Tormented Soul
4 Diregraf Ghoul
23 Swamp