I've been doing a lot of work on my list to overcome the problems I've been facing. I think I might be a burn spell short in the sideboard but these changes seem to both give me an edge against a lot of the field (Maybe the Naturalizes should just be 1 more Ancient Grudge and 1 more Incinerate). The biggest new inclusion is Spellskite in place of my Apostle's Blessings. While it is less just bam you are dead the protection usually buys me a turn anyway. And it also slight raises my creature count so I have more Angelic Destiny Kessig targets. Being able to protect Primordial Hydra a turn or 2 against red decks is huge since once it gets out of range there is very little they can do. In general it's a great creature to fight tempo battles.
I've also upped my white mana counts to better reflect the need in the deck. This does come at the cost of 1 T1 G mana source but I think it's worth it.
You don't find yourself flooded with Garruk? I tend to find as a three of he is perfect... and why the singleton Mutagenic Growth?
It's funny you say that I was just thinking of trading him for 1 Gideon. But besides that no not really. I mean it can happen but I don't mind just casting him as a Concentrate. Usually though it's +1. Draw.. +1, +1, Draw.. Play another.. He's just powerful and he dies. I don't really like seeing 3 in a game often, but 2 is more than alright.
As for the Mutagenic Growth it just is a very useful all around spell. Protects dorks/hydra from burn/wring flesh. Hero from Dismember. Beast/Hydra from Slagstorm. Often messes up combat math in my favor like attacking through Blade Splicer/Thrun/Mirran Crusader with Hero. Often winning the game. I would almost like more but I figure Spellskite handles the rest of that from a protection angle and I can't target Mirran Crusader with it. It does funny stuff with Spellskite against Illusions too.. Like they attack in with 2 Bears and you block with Spellskite, then you Mutagenic Growth targetting 1, redirect to Spellskite to 2 for 1 them. They attack in with Inferno Titan putting all 3 on your Hero, then shock it or play another Inferno Titan and only put 1 more damage on it. I admit it's a bit better with Gavony Township than Kessig that while the 2 extra damage is relevant.. it let's you do surprise trades with Hero there. For instance you attack into a Titan with Gavony up.. they block Hero you activate making the Hero a 4/5.. Growth makint it a 6/7.. killing their Titan and it lives and you get the 6 damage in off the tokens. It's pretty much just a versatile spell that is almost always good as long as you have a creature on board and people usually don't play around it.
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Lol... That is quite the unexpected tech for Mutegenic Growth and is worth testing IMO... Going to try it out... As a one of do you draw it much?
Not really, just trying something for spice.. I'd be lying if I said I came up with it. The arguably best GW Tokens list at Worlds(went 5-1 in Standard) ran 3 main deck and 1 in the sideboard. I have tested with more, it was just that I figure between it and Spellskite I have about 4 slots worth doing that sort of stuff, although Act of Aggression hasn't quite been working for me so I'm debating putting more in the board since saving a creature would probably win me more games than the final damage through Act simply on Tempo gain. Saving the Dorks can be that relevant. Still testing it though.
While playtesting, I found out that every single deck that was built had Gut Shot or a similar effect that kills one-toughness creatures. That didn't seem fair against my Birds of Paradise and Avacyn's Pilgrim, so I was a little worried.
Martin got a lot more worried as he changed his choice to U/B Control. That was actually pretty good news for me because now I could borrow a lot of cards at once. I was only missing three Garruk Relentless.
Martin had four Gut Shot in the maindeck and sideboard, which I didn't like so much. But I came up with another sweet zero-mana instant, which actually won five of the eleven Standard games that I played.
I wouldn't describe myself as much of an expert on the deck, but I was feeling confident with my choice because I liked the numbers. There are only three two-ofs—which I like a lot—with some extra redundancy in the sideboard (Mutagenic Growth, Garruk Relentless, Oblivion Ring, Fiend Hunter).
Blade Splicer performed better than I expected, and I expected him to be very good against Arc Trail and other shenanigans. I'm still not decided on which my favorite card of the deck was: Mutagenic Growth or Gavony Township. They'd both deserve it.
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This seemed like the closest thread to what I'm building now.
Basically, my idea is to ramp to a Sun Titan to keep resurrecting my 2/3 CMC critters, throwing Angelic Destiny on one or two or just beating face.
I keep a few Garruk Relentless handy in case I can't find a titan or for control.
Much of my meta is RDW, so Timely Reinforcements is nice to realign things before I bring in my titan. If nothing else, it's nice to keep in hand to respond to a DoJ or a big turnaround. It's effect should really read "If you're not winning, start winning."
The land count is only 20 due to the amount of ramp I have and the lack of stuff to pour mana into. After I start getting lands out of my deck with Rampant Growth and Viridian Emissary, the lowered land count really helps ensure that I keep getting beaters. A Lead the Stampede after you have 1/4 of your lands in play can really wreck someone's day.
I decided to go for Mayor of Avabruck for three reasons; 1, Mirran Crusader. 2, Garruk Relentless. 3, it's green, which helps with Dungrove Elder's mana base. It came in just slightly taller than Blade Splicer for me because of these, though I'm not completely married to the idea.
No Hero of Bladehold for one reason: It's not reachable with Sun Titan.
This seemed like the closest thread to what I'm building now.
Basically, my idea is to ramp to a Sun Titan to keep resurrecting my 2/3 CMC critters, throwing Angelic Destiny on one or two or just beating face.
I keep a few Garruk Relentless handy in case I can't find a titan or for control.
Much of my meta is RDW, so Timely Reinforcements is nice to realign things before I bring in my titan. If nothing else, it's nice to keep in hand to respond to a DoJ or a big turnaround. It's effect should really read "If you're not winning, start winning."
The land count is only 20 due to the amount of ramp I have and the lack of stuff to pour mana into. After I start getting lands out of my deck with Rampant Growth and Viridian Emissary, the lowered land count really helps ensure that I keep getting beaters. A Lead the Stampede after you have 1/4 of your lands in play can really wreck someone's day.
I decided to go for Mayor of Avabruck for three reasons; 1, Mirran Crusader. 2, Garruk Relentless. 3, it's green, which helps with Dungrove Elder's mana base. It came in just slightly taller than Blade Splicer for me because of these, though I'm not completely married to the idea.
No Hero of Bladehold for one reason: It's not reachable with Sun Titan.
You could probably get away with running 22 lands but 20 is way to low IMO... Lead the stamped I would change to Green Sun's Zenith so you can tool box the green creature you want. Also instead of the pilgrim and birds I would just go with the birds...
That's is probably where I would start with first...
You could probably get away with running 22 lands but 20 is way to low IMO... Lead the stamped I would change to Green Sun's Zenith so you can tool box the green creature you want. Also instead of the pilgrim and birds I would just go with the birds...
That's is probably where I would start with first...
I agree and also nice to see this forum going strong
You could probably get away with runninokay, sog 22 lands but 20 is way to low IMO... Lead the stamped I would change to Green Sun's Zenith so you can tool box the green creature you want. Also instead of the pilgrim and birds I would just go with the birds...
That's is probably where I would start with first...
This sounds good, but my only green creatures worth grabbing would probably be Mayors or Dungroves. Is there any decent green or white graveyard recursion I could use instead? Unburial Rites would be an option, though relying on Birds for the black seems a bit risky.
This sounds good, but my only green creatures worth grabbing would probably be Mayors or Dungroves. Is there any decent green or white graveyard recursion I could use instead? Unburial Rites would be an option, though relying on Birds for the black seems a bit risky.
Tbh we have all started to shy away from Sun Titan... When we where using him he was bringing back Swords, Crusader, Ghost Quarter and alot of times he was either countered or died deft turn. When we where using him it was at the most two or one. You are also going to find out that alot of times you are just bringing back a mana dork...
Since your meta has alot of burn and there are two cards that burn hates... Timely Renforcements and Wurmcoil Engine. I would suggest using Wurmcoil. This style deck also wants to be winning and swinging big on turn three or four with either a equipped Crusader or Hero. Waiting around for a six drop and you are getting in trouble... We want to have won by turn 6 and 7.
Looks like you want to have a deck with recursion ability and I would actually think about running a G/B/w splash which would give you a larger card pool for recursion... Find a thread named Curropting Justice which ran this idea and see if you can gain any information from that...
Last tournament here (like 30+ people) went 5:0
Tried abit different deck.
- 1 Gavony Township (leaving me with 2 MD)
+ 2 Kessig Wolf Run
- 2 Ghost Quarter
+ 1 Mountain
+ 1 Elesh Norn
- 1 Hero of Bladehold.
Worked extremely well. I will post the full deck later (at work now). Maybe people didnt expect to see kessig in such a deck but it was nice. Being able to pump + trample your mirran or (insert random creature here) equipped with sword is nice.
I won 2 games with mirran+sword of feast and famine + kessing...first strike, untap pump once again with kessig = win
Precisely. Kessig is very very powerful. It gives your deck just natural ways to push damage. It's the reach that is needed in GW to push board stalls. It makes more ways to effectively draw swords without having to use too many slots on pumps. Hence why I've been advocating it this whole time. It's better to be proactive than sit on stuff like Ghost Quarter in these sort of decks. I also made the Elesh change although it's in my sideboard. You run Emissary right? Do you run Rampant Growth? I'm just wondering if the 1 mountain is enough. I found that I needed about 6(non-birds) red sources to pull it off.
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That change seems reasonable. I feel the same about Gideon. I actually to my surprise found given the decks I wad facing preferred Garruk Relentless. 3 Thruns main too. Given all the Illusions and new crop of Flare seems reasonable. It's another card I hate getting jammed with doubles especially against decks like Wolf Run I have race. You are right keeping 3 Crusaders he is just so powerful where he's powerful. Why the Splicers? Other Crusader/Hero decks? Crusader being hated by burn spells is one thing but often Splicer is so much less effective. If it is keeping off aggro seems reasonable enough.
How's the mana? Getting down to the threshold of T1 green sources with 10. It is necessary to get all the color fixing. I too am running 14 g and 13 w. That was the problem with GW Tokens. 16 G and 12 W didn't balance the costs. They did it for the 12 T1 green sources but kill the dork and double white isn't as likely.
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I find Thrun is really good against burn deck too... I actually made the switch to two SoWaP and one SoBaM because of all the burn that is going on....
I tried a red splash and was running into issues with dropping the Crusader in turn 2. I just don't think it fits my playstyle... But the combo was to good not to use in my wolf run deck and so far it is putting some serious pressure on my opponents there.
What do you guys think of White Sun's Zenith? I think it is the final push I've been looking for. It's good against Illusions, and Control. Being able to EoT it is very key. We produce enough mana that stuff like Midnight Haunting seems like a waste unless you are going very heavy Sword route. I've found planing too many Swords/Aura's lowers the threat density too low and forces me to run more removal. I like it in the deck more than DoJ and it sort of does the same thing if need be. Against more aggressive permission decks like Illusions it's great when you don't want to play into their Leaks. Like if they tap out to play Geist T3 or T4, You drop even a single Cat, untap drop a threat and they no longer can easily just vapor snag you out on Tempo. It's also great later where you can make them use the leak or tap out so you can land a threat on your turn. Against a lot of decks if they don't expect it is a bit like Overrun. You swing in knock them down to like 12 .. if they don't counter the Cat's EoT you probably have them dead on board. Since so much removal is Sorcery speed it puts you at an advantage. I've updated my list in my sig to use them. Basically cut some number of Timelies.
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Ryan how has white sun been for you? Notice it creeping up in alot of decks lately but more in U/W control...
I cut back down to 1. It is best against control I find. When we run stuff like Garruk Primal Hunter and the decline of Consecrated Sphinx we can really play into the late game if we have to and this just basically is like our answer to BSZ or DoJ.. We just keep refilling the board. Or at worst it's another threat that eats a counterspell. Basically it's the go big trump in that matchup where something like Elesh Norn is deadly against Aggro. It's a bit like giving Hero of Bladehold Haste and Hex Proof until it attacks. I generally just like diversifying the threats. This is a threat that must be dealt with Via sweeper and it's potentially recurring.
I was hoping it would hedge my illusions matchup and while it's decent against the blue/white aggro decks where we might be tempted for DoJ it might be a touch too slow even with our ramp. Although I mean there is always the EoT Zenith for X=3.. Untap Drop Elesh Norn. That is pretty deadly. But that is living the dream like putting Basilisk Collar on Inferno Titan.
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Yeah White Sun ultimately didn't put me where I wanted. I needed burn truthfully. I've been trying some stuff mainly since all the good creature decks run white or blue. Combust seems actually pretty good. This list is quite a bit different but I've really been working on the mana base to reduce the number of come into play tapped lands while still making early Garruk very likely. This is the mana base I'm trying:
It works out to 18 G, 14 W, 7 R. With only 24 lands. While the Shimmering Grotto might seem bad, and I'm considering dropping 1 for a plains, the fact it comes into play untapped is huge. What hasn't changed is that we need about 7 scars lands in 3 color to get T1 G and about 6-7 Inn Core for fixing. My previous mana bases couldn't maximize on Sunpetal Grove for this reason which was the only one that was super likely to come into play untapped. Instead it wanted Clifftop retreats, which with only 4 plains (if I wanted 7 red sources) were significantly more unlikely to come in, especially if I was aiming to keep hands with green sources. This was even with 25 land builds. The Clifftop Retreat is still tricky. I've debated making 1 a Rootbound Crag for less likely coming in to play tapped. It is still quite likely to come into play tapped unfortunately.
On Shimmering Grotto: It isn't great per se and most of the time it doesn't actually do any fixing. But the number of times it makes the difference on hitting the number untapped lands we want is not minor. The thing is the reason Shimmering Grotto worked in Gerry's 5 color is cause he ran ramp with Pristine Talisman. That is why it never worked as well in his older versions. With the mana dorks funnelling this works quite well. I mean most of the time the red isn't on the curve but the extra for Kessig or a removal spell. Paying 3 for a Whipflare isn't the worst thing. This mana base has more red and the white isn't that affected by Shimmering Grove that it just lets me cast my 3 color spells easier like Garruk/True Conviction. I almost never not have the triple green for Garruk now.
I haven't changed the main deck too much. Right now War and Peace is better than Destiny. I keep the Destiny just for slow decks I can jump over or decks like Wolf Run where it is always a race and decks don't run red or white removal. UB Control/B Infect are prime examples of decks that don't like Destiny as well. However the red white sword is good against pretty much all aggro. I also got rid of Garruk Relentless. He for the most part is so much worse than Primal Hunter and where he was better he was a 4 mana Lightning Bolt. I cut the Mutagenic Growths. It was good tech for a few weeks but it's played now. It was really only good against heavy burn wolf run and no one plays list as burn heavy as Iyanaga.
Sideboard has a lot of room now. Got rid of White Sun's as I didn't need it against control and it wasn't great elsewhere. I have a single Mimic Vat which basically is my Garruk #5. It's a real pain for control decks to have enough O-Ring effects to keep that in check as well as your threats and planeswalkers. Since they've moved to sweepers you can get a lot of value here. Yes costing 3 is a pain since it's a nice number to Ratchet Bomb but it basically really limits their line of play. I'd make it another different Walker but none seem good enough. Combust is my final ticket. Just seems so good against all the aggro decks. Basically they don't play Titans and having a Doom Blade here is actually precisely what I've found I needed. While it isn't as cost effective as Vapor Snag or Dismember, it doesn't cost you life, it can't be countered, and it doesn't create the back and forths O-Ring does. Especially against UW Humans. This frees you to O-Ring important stuff and not lose to Fiend Hunter. They pack so much removal in those bodies. No single burn spell is efficient enough since Honor changes all the math. Can't just run Shocks, or Incinerates. Red Sun isn't as good unless it is later in the game or you hit dorks and they don't hit Honor (basically sticking you ahead of the curve). I tried running Revoke Existance to kill their Honors/O-Rings but with Fiend Hunter in the mix it was still often enough that if they got a heavy creature hand you'd have mostly dead cards. Naturalize seems better here perhaps but only if you can force weird trades. I don't run Blade Splicer so it wasn't nearly as effective. Then I thought what deck would I want Burn that Combust wouldn't do. pretty much just RDW and Tempered Steel. Tempered Steel I have Ancient Grudge for and they still run some White. RDW matchup isn't as good but I have Whipflare and now that I main deck SoWaP my game 1's against them are a lot better. If it weren't for Wolf Run and UWx control Combust would almost be maindeckable especially online which is all Humans and Illusions. I think it's that good right now.
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Pretty much disregard everything above. I'm going back to basically an older version of my list. Iyanaga Wolf Run is basically gone, and I've been worrying about it way too much. Shimmering Grotto is not good.. I just need a better manabase especially for postboard which I've been working on.
I played this build at our local store and went 3-1 on fnm with a lot of uw aggro, grixis control, rdw, wolfrun ramp and gw tokens. My only loss was against tokens. Im thinking to put atleast 1 elesh norn, grand cenobite on sb but not sure what to remove. Or is it better on main? What to remove if its on main? Please advice. Thanks
I'm gonna say the Kemba was just anti Delver tech I was trying but I never faced it.
Round 1 GW Tokens
This was sort of the mirror. The guy Destinied Crusader Game 1 and won. The next two games after the Combusts came in and I brought in my Destiny just killed him dead. Garruk and Gideon did a number. And Hydra was good for some win.
2-1 (1-0)
Round 2 RB Heartless
Game 1 He got Heartless and proceeded to just kill me quite quickly I had to mulligan to 5 and they were all lands and kept.. Oh well. Game 2 I O-Ringed Heartless then Destinied Crusader for a quick win. Game 3 was a bit longer. I O-Ringed his T4 Olivia and got Garruk out. I managed to draw some cards and get Hydra out.. He didn't draw the Doom Blade and Hydra killed him.
2-1 (2-0)
Round 3 UW Humans
Fairly typical list. I lost to Crusader with Destiny Game 1. But it was a slower go. He basically Dismember T1 birds, then had 2 Fiend Hunters and 2 O-Ring. I had a couple Kemba but he had the O-Ring for Mirran to finish the job before I took the last of his life. The other 2 games were very lopsided to my favor. Combust was good. The 3rd Game I had Spellskite stopping Destiny with a Hydra getting huge and I dropped Elesh Norn for the win.
2-1 (3-0)
Round 4 UB Control
The guy kept a 2 lander with think Twice and took forever to get his 3rd land game 1. I had T2 Crusader and you can imagine how that went. Game 2 was similar. He was very scared of me coming out quickly so he kept a low lander cause it was full of leaks. But he had mana color screw and with an Autumn's Veil to push a 2nd Crusader I won.
2-0 (4-0)
All in all not much new. I'm entering the Canadian Magic Series tournament this weekend with the deck so hopefully I can transfer these results. I'm something like 24-3 with it. Delver decks are my greatest fear. I think the biggest change I would make is to the mana base. It was really awkward. I think I need 1 more basic.
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I played this build at our local store and went 3-1 on fnm with a lot of uw aggro, grixis control, rdw, wolfrun ramp and gw tokens. My only loss was against tokens. Im thinking to put atleast 1 elesh norn, grand cenobite on sb but not sure what to remove. Or is it better on main? What to remove if its on main? Please advice. Thanks
I would actually consider main decking Elesh and what to remove I would consider the magnets... But how have they been performing for you and why do you have that in your main?
I you want to add it to your sideboard I would remover a purge...
Actually the magnets saved me against rdw on the last round. It bought me some time until i drew DoJ or purge to slighty even the match. But to think about it, it was only that match that I used it. I'm thinking 1 Batterskull and 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite to replace the magnets. Any thoughts about it? Thanks
Actually the magnets saved me against rdw on the last round. It bought me some time until i drew DoJ or purge to slighty even the match. But to think about it, it was only that match that I used it. I'm thinking 1 Batterskull and 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite to replace the magnets. Any thoughts about it? Thanks
Sounds like you have alot of burn in your meta... I think Wurmcoil Engine might serve you better with the Timely in the sideboard should help you gain the advantage in those match ups...
You don't find yourself flooded with Garruk? I tend to find as a three of he is perfect... and why the singleton Mutagenic Growth?
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It's funny you say that I was just thinking of trading him for 1 Gideon. But besides that no not really. I mean it can happen but I don't mind just casting him as a Concentrate. Usually though it's +1. Draw.. +1, +1, Draw.. Play another.. He's just powerful and he dies. I don't really like seeing 3 in a game often, but 2 is more than alright.
As for the Mutagenic Growth it just is a very useful all around spell. Protects dorks/hydra from burn/wring flesh. Hero from Dismember. Beast/Hydra from Slagstorm. Often messes up combat math in my favor like attacking through Blade Splicer/Thrun/Mirran Crusader with Hero. Often winning the game. I would almost like more but I figure Spellskite handles the rest of that from a protection angle and I can't target Mirran Crusader with it. It does funny stuff with Spellskite against Illusions too.. Like they attack in with 2 Bears and you block with Spellskite, then you Mutagenic Growth targetting 1, redirect to Spellskite to 2 for 1 them. They attack in with Inferno Titan putting all 3 on your Hero, then shock it or play another Inferno Titan and only put 1 more damage on it. I admit it's a bit better with Gavony Township than Kessig that while the 2 extra damage is relevant.. it let's you do surprise trades with Hero there. For instance you attack into a Titan with Gavony up.. they block Hero you activate making the Hero a 4/5.. Growth makint it a 6/7.. killing their Titan and it lives and you get the 6 damage in off the tokens. It's pretty much just a versatile spell that is almost always good as long as you have a creature on board and people usually don't play around it.
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Not really, just trying something for spice.. I'd be lying if I said I came up with it. The arguably best GW Tokens list at Worlds(went 5-1 in Standard) ran 3 main deck and 1 in the sideboard. I have tested with more, it was just that I figure between it and Spellskite I have about 4 slots worth doing that sort of stuff, although Act of Aggression hasn't quite been working for me so I'm debating putting more in the board since saving a creature would probably win me more games than the final damage through Act simply on Tempo gain. Saving the Dorks can be that relevant. Still testing it though.
From the SCG Article:
2 Mortarpod
Creatures
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Blade Splicer
2 Geist-Honored Monk
4 Hero of Bladehold
3 Mirran Crusader
Enchantments
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Mutagenic Growth
Legendary Creatures
2 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
Planeswalkers
3 Elspeth Tirel
3 Garruk Relentless
Basic Lands
8 Forest
4 Plains
Lands
4 Gavony Township
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Sunpetal Grove
2 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Sword of War and Peace
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Celestial Purge
1 Mutagenic Growth
2 Naturalize
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Garruk Relentless
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Basically, my idea is to ramp to a Sun Titan to keep resurrecting my 2/3 CMC critters, throwing Angelic Destiny on one or two or just beating face.
I keep a few Garruk Relentless handy in case I can't find a titan or for control.
Much of my meta is RDW, so Timely Reinforcements is nice to realign things before I bring in my titan. If nothing else, it's nice to keep in hand to respond to a DoJ or a big turnaround. It's effect should really read "If you're not winning, start winning."
The land count is only 20 due to the amount of ramp I have and the lack of stuff to pour mana into. After I start getting lands out of my deck with Rampant Growth and Viridian Emissary, the lowered land count really helps ensure that I keep getting beaters. A Lead the Stampede after you have 1/4 of your lands in play can really wreck someone's day.
I decided to go for Mayor of Avabruck for three reasons; 1, Mirran Crusader. 2, Garruk Relentless. 3, it's green, which helps with Dungrove Elder's mana base. It came in just slightly taller than Blade Splicer for me because of these, though I'm not completely married to the idea.
No Hero of Bladehold for one reason: It's not reachable with Sun Titan.
4 Sun Titan
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Viridian Emissary
4 Mirran Crusader
3 Dungrove Elder
3 Avacyn's Pilgrim
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Rampant Growth
2 Angelic Destiny
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Lead the Stampede
3 Garruk Relentless
Land - 20
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Sunpetal Grove
8 Forest
4 Plains
A couple ideas I have are Mulch and perhaps lowering the dual land count in favor of a couple more pure Forests
you need more lands, at least 2 more and you have A LOT of 3 drops.
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Perhaps take out 2 Timely Reinforcements for 2 Gavony Townships? That should give me something to sink extra mana into after I drop my hand, at least.
yeah, I just don't like dungrove in this. He probably won't get very big.
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That's is probably where I would start with first...
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I agree and also nice to see this forum going strong
Ok, so, something like this:
-2 Pilgrims -> +2 Birds
-1 Pilgrim -> +1 Forest
-1 Pilgrim -> +1 Plains
-2 Stampede -> +2 Green Sun
This sounds good, but my only green creatures worth grabbing would probably be Mayors or Dungroves. Is there any decent green or white graveyard recursion I could use instead? Unburial Rites would be an option, though relying on Birds for the black seems a bit risky.
Tbh we have all started to shy away from Sun Titan... When we where using him he was bringing back Swords, Crusader, Ghost Quarter and alot of times he was either countered or died deft turn. When we where using him it was at the most two or one. You are also going to find out that alot of times you are just bringing back a mana dork...
Since your meta has alot of burn and there are two cards that burn hates... Timely Renforcements and Wurmcoil Engine. I would suggest using Wurmcoil. This style deck also wants to be winning and swinging big on turn three or four with either a equipped Crusader or Hero. Waiting around for a six drop and you are getting in trouble... We want to have won by turn 6 and 7.
Looks like you want to have a deck with recursion ability and I would actually think about running a G/B/w splash which would give you a larger card pool for recursion... Find a thread named Curropting Justice which ran this idea and see if you can gain any information from that...
Commander
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader G
GW Sigarda, Host of Herons WG
Legacy
GU 12 Post UG
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Precisely. Kessig is very very powerful. It gives your deck just natural ways to push damage. It's the reach that is needed in GW to push board stalls. It makes more ways to effectively draw swords without having to use too many slots on pumps. Hence why I've been advocating it this whole time. It's better to be proactive than sit on stuff like Ghost Quarter in these sort of decks. I also made the Elesh change although it's in my sideboard. You run Emissary right? Do you run Rampant Growth? I'm just wondering if the 1 mountain is enough. I found that I needed about 6(non-birds) red sources to pull it off.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
How's the mana? Getting down to the threshold of T1 green sources with 10. It is necessary to get all the color fixing. I too am running 14 g and 13 w. That was the problem with GW Tokens. 16 G and 12 W didn't balance the costs. They did it for the 12 T1 green sources but kill the dork and double white isn't as likely.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
I tried a red splash and was running into issues with dropping the Crusader in turn 2. I just don't think it fits my playstyle... But the combo was to good not to use in my wolf run deck and so far it is putting some serious pressure on my opponents there.
Commander
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader G
GW Sigarda, Host of Herons WG
Legacy
GU 12 Post UG
Trade Thread: Click Here
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7 forest
7 plains
4 razorverge thicket
4 sunpetal grove
2 gavony township
CREATURES
4 avacyn's pilgrim
4 birds of paradise
4 mirran crusader
4 hero of bladehold
3 spellskite
2 wurmcoil engine
1 elesh norn, grand cenobite
3 tezzeret's gambit
ARTIFACTS
1 sword of war and peace
ENCHANTMENT
4 oblivion ring
3 angelic destiny
PLANESWALKER
3 garruk, primal hunter
3 ratchet bomb
3 timely reinforcements
3 thrun, the last troll
2 melira, sylvok outcast
2 gideon jura
1 sword of body and mind
1 sword of feast and famine
Well what you guys think? The only thing that i would want to add to the sideboard is marrow shards but don't think i can fit it.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Commander
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader G
GW Sigarda, Host of Herons WG
Legacy
GU 12 Post UG
Trade Thread: Click Here
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I cut back down to 1. It is best against control I find. When we run stuff like Garruk Primal Hunter and the decline of Consecrated Sphinx we can really play into the late game if we have to and this just basically is like our answer to BSZ or DoJ.. We just keep refilling the board. Or at worst it's another threat that eats a counterspell. Basically it's the go big trump in that matchup where something like Elesh Norn is deadly against Aggro. It's a bit like giving Hero of Bladehold Haste and Hex Proof until it attacks. I generally just like diversifying the threats. This is a threat that must be dealt with Via sweeper and it's potentially recurring.
I was hoping it would hedge my illusions matchup and while it's decent against the blue/white aggro decks where we might be tempted for DoJ it might be a touch too slow even with our ramp. Although I mean there is always the EoT Zenith for X=3.. Untap Drop Elesh Norn. That is pretty deadly. But that is living the dream like putting Basilisk Collar on Inferno Titan.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
3 Copperline Gorge
4 Sunpetal Grove
2 Clifftop Retreat
4 Forests
2 Plains
2 Shimmering Grotto
3 Kessig Wolf Run
It works out to 18 G, 14 W, 7 R. With only 24 lands. While the Shimmering Grotto might seem bad, and I'm considering dropping 1 for a plains, the fact it comes into play untapped is huge. What hasn't changed is that we need about 7 scars lands in 3 color to get T1 G and about 6-7 Inn Core for fixing. My previous mana bases couldn't maximize on Sunpetal Grove for this reason which was the only one that was super likely to come into play untapped. Instead it wanted Clifftop retreats, which with only 4 plains (if I wanted 7 red sources) were significantly more unlikely to come in, especially if I was aiming to keep hands with green sources. This was even with 25 land builds. The Clifftop Retreat is still tricky. I've debated making 1 a Rootbound Crag for less likely coming in to play tapped. It is still quite likely to come into play tapped unfortunately.
On Shimmering Grotto: It isn't great per se and most of the time it doesn't actually do any fixing. But the number of times it makes the difference on hitting the number untapped lands we want is not minor. The thing is the reason Shimmering Grotto worked in Gerry's 5 color is cause he ran ramp with Pristine Talisman. That is why it never worked as well in his older versions. With the mana dorks funnelling this works quite well. I mean most of the time the red isn't on the curve but the extra for Kessig or a removal spell. Paying 3 for a Whipflare isn't the worst thing. This mana base has more red and the white isn't that affected by Shimmering Grove that it just lets me cast my 3 color spells easier like Garruk/True Conviction. I almost never not have the triple green for Garruk now.
I haven't changed the main deck too much. Right now War and Peace is better than Destiny. I keep the Destiny just for slow decks I can jump over or decks like Wolf Run where it is always a race and decks don't run red or white removal. UB Control/B Infect are prime examples of decks that don't like Destiny as well. However the red white sword is good against pretty much all aggro. I also got rid of Garruk Relentless. He for the most part is so much worse than Primal Hunter and where he was better he was a 4 mana Lightning Bolt. I cut the Mutagenic Growths. It was good tech for a few weeks but it's played now. It was really only good against heavy burn wolf run and no one plays list as burn heavy as Iyanaga.
Sideboard has a lot of room now. Got rid of White Sun's as I didn't need it against control and it wasn't great elsewhere. I have a single Mimic Vat which basically is my Garruk #5. It's a real pain for control decks to have enough O-Ring effects to keep that in check as well as your threats and planeswalkers. Since they've moved to sweepers you can get a lot of value here. Yes costing 3 is a pain since it's a nice number to Ratchet Bomb but it basically really limits their line of play. I'd make it another different Walker but none seem good enough. Combust is my final ticket. Just seems so good against all the aggro decks. Basically they don't play Titans and having a Doom Blade here is actually precisely what I've found I needed. While it isn't as cost effective as Vapor Snag or Dismember, it doesn't cost you life, it can't be countered, and it doesn't create the back and forths O-Ring does. Especially against UW Humans. This frees you to O-Ring important stuff and not lose to Fiend Hunter. They pack so much removal in those bodies. No single burn spell is efficient enough since Honor changes all the math. Can't just run Shocks, or Incinerates. Red Sun isn't as good unless it is later in the game or you hit dorks and they don't hit Honor (basically sticking you ahead of the curve). I tried running Revoke Existance to kill their Honors/O-Rings but with Fiend Hunter in the mix it was still often enough that if they got a heavy creature hand you'd have mostly dead cards. Naturalize seems better here perhaps but only if you can force weird trades. I don't run Blade Splicer so it wasn't nearly as effective. Then I thought what deck would I want Burn that Combust wouldn't do. pretty much just RDW and Tempered Steel. Tempered Steel I have Ancient Grudge for and they still run some White. RDW matchup isn't as good but I have Whipflare and now that I main deck SoWaP my game 1's against them are a lot better. If it weren't for Wolf Run and UWx control Combust would almost be maindeckable especially online which is all Humans and Illusions. I think it's that good right now.
4 Razorverge Thicket
3 Copperline Gorge
4 Sunpetal Grove
2 Clifftop Retreat
4 Forests
2 Plains
2 Shimmering Grotto
3 Kessig Wolf Run
Creatures(23):
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
2 Spellskite
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Primordial Hydra
3 Hero of Bladehold
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Other(9):
1 Apostle's Blessing
1 Red Sun's Zenith
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Sword of War and Peace
2 True Conviction
3 Autumn's Veil
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Combust
3 Whipflare
1 Mimic Vat
2 Angelic Destiny
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
---------------------
Pretty much disregard everything above. I'm going back to basically an older version of my list. Iyanaga Wolf Run is basically gone, and I've been worrying about it way too much. Shimmering Grotto is not good.. I just need a better manabase especially for postboard which I've been working on.
4 Razorverge Thicket
3 Copperline Gorge
4 Sunpetal Grove
2 Clifftop Retreat
2 Rootbound Crag
4 Forests
3 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Kessig Wolf Run
Creatures(21):
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Primordial Hydra
3 Hero of Bladehold
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Gideon Jura
Other(8):
2 Dismember
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Sword of War and Peace
1 True Conviction
3 Autumn's Veil
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Combust
2 Whipflare
2 Spellskite
1 Angelic Destiny
2 Witchbane Orb
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
4 viridian emissary
4 hero of bladehold
3 thrun, the last troll
3 wurmcoil engine
Spells (14)
3 midnight haunting
4 oblivion ring
2 sword of war and peace
2 tumble magnet
3 day of judgment
3 gideon jura
3 elspeth tirel
Lands (26)
10 plains
5 forest
4 razorverge thicket
4 sunpetal grove
3 ghost quarters
4 timely reinforcements
4 autumns veil
3 celestial purge
1 day of judgment
2 sword of feast and famine
1 sword of body and mind
4 Razorverge Thicket
3 Copperline Gorge
4 Sunpetal Grove
2 Clifftop Retreat
1 Rootbound Crag
4 Forests
4 Plains
3 Kessig Wolf Run
Creatures(23):
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
1 Spellskite
3 Kemba's Skyguard
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Primordial Hydra
3 Hero of Bladehold
4 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Gideon Jura
Other(6):
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Sword of War and Peace
1 True Conviction
3 Autumn's Veil
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Combust
1 Spellskite
2 Angelic Destiny
1 Witchbane Orb
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
I'm gonna say the Kemba was just anti Delver tech I was trying but I never faced it.
Round 1 GW Tokens
This was sort of the mirror. The guy Destinied Crusader Game 1 and won. The next two games after the Combusts came in and I brought in my Destiny just killed him dead. Garruk and Gideon did a number. And Hydra was good for some win.
2-1 (1-0)
Round 2 RB Heartless
Game 1 He got Heartless and proceeded to just kill me quite quickly I had to mulligan to 5 and they were all lands and kept.. Oh well. Game 2 I O-Ringed Heartless then Destinied Crusader for a quick win. Game 3 was a bit longer. I O-Ringed his T4 Olivia and got Garruk out. I managed to draw some cards and get Hydra out.. He didn't draw the Doom Blade and Hydra killed him.
2-1 (2-0)
Round 3 UW Humans
Fairly typical list. I lost to Crusader with Destiny Game 1. But it was a slower go. He basically Dismember T1 birds, then had 2 Fiend Hunters and 2 O-Ring. I had a couple Kemba but he had the O-Ring for Mirran to finish the job before I took the last of his life. The other 2 games were very lopsided to my favor. Combust was good. The 3rd Game I had Spellskite stopping Destiny with a Hydra getting huge and I dropped Elesh Norn for the win.
2-1 (3-0)
Round 4 UB Control
The guy kept a 2 lander with think Twice and took forever to get his 3rd land game 1. I had T2 Crusader and you can imagine how that went. Game 2 was similar. He was very scared of me coming out quickly so he kept a low lander cause it was full of leaks. But he had mana color screw and with an Autumn's Veil to push a 2nd Crusader I won.
2-0 (4-0)
All in all not much new. I'm entering the Canadian Magic Series tournament this weekend with the deck so hopefully I can transfer these results. I'm something like 24-3 with it. Delver decks are my greatest fear. I think the biggest change I would make is to the mana base. It was really awkward. I think I need 1 more basic.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
I would actually consider main decking Elesh and what to remove I would consider the magnets... But how have they been performing for you and why do you have that in your main?
I you want to add it to your sideboard I would remover a purge...
Congrats Ryan and good luck!
Commander
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader G
GW Sigarda, Host of Herons WG
Legacy
GU 12 Post UG
Trade Thread: Click Here
Image Disclaimer: Please review User Notes before clicking infraction.
Sounds like you have alot of burn in your meta... I think Wurmcoil Engine might serve you better with the Timely in the sideboard should help you gain the advantage in those match ups...
Commander
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader G
GW Sigarda, Host of Herons WG
Legacy
GU 12 Post UG
Trade Thread: Click Here
Image Disclaimer: Please review User Notes before clicking infraction.