What sort of red deck were you beating really easily? I ask purely out of interest; I always found the matchup really easy.
As for playing elsewhere, I actually travel for FNM - the venue I go to is one of the strongest in Australia (Jeremy Neeman is a regular for example), so I am missing out on a lot if I don't go. My actual local doesnt play standard, just draft. AVR draft sucks, but maybe that is preferrable?
I don't know. I do know that I feel much, much more frustrated playing against UW delver than I ever did playing cawblade - weird right?
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"~Flooding
1U
Instant
Common
Tap up to three target creatures."
Delver decks - run for the hills! The card that will end your tempo reign has been printed!
Wait...
IU : Time walk
Two turns later
Snapcaster Mage, flash back Time Walk
>_> On a serious note I don't know if that will actually be better than the white one with flash back. We'll see.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
In my local area, people complain that there are "too many Delver decks" despite an informal gentleman's agreement in place that has a single dedicated Delver player at each LGS in my area. It's a little ironic, at least in my area, that people complain about the big picture outside my area, when everyone is just playing whatever they want at the FNM level.
I'm not surprised at the lack of a ban. They "banned" Mana Leak and Ponder by not putting them in M13.
Yeah I stated a few pages back that the problem is no efficient RDW deck pooping on the tempo decks consistently every format. Regardless of how good your RDW deck was when Caw-blade was oppressing the format it didn't stop me from beating RDW with Caw-blade near every time. >_>
To be honest I beat it with MBC nearly every time too. RDW sucked last format, dude. LOL
Delver isn't nearly as resilient as Caw-blade. A strong RDW list would help even the format out.
During Caw Blade, I never had a problem with RDW. I felt around 60/40 at least in this matchup.
My list was a bit unconventional. It was my first deck and I loved it. I never went less than 3-1 at FNM with it and usually went 4-0. Of course, I didn't play at any higher level events but my store, Legion Games, is the #1 store in Minnesota and I played against skilled players with tier 1 decks. I had 4-ofs of Guide, Kiln Fiend, Kargan Dragonlord, Koth, Lightning Bolt, Burst Lightning, Forked Bolt and Flame Slash. Then I had 3 Assault Strobe, the best card in the deck. I had 2 flex spots that I tried a different thing every week to keep it interesting. Cards played in these spots included Searing Blaze, Arc Trail, Inferno Titan, Mark of Mutiny and Lust for War (a criminally underrated card). Then I had 23 lands - 2 Smoldering Spires, 2 Teetering Peaks and 19 Mountain. Most people were trying the Plated Geopede landfall thing but I always thought he sucked compared to Kiln Fiend and Kargan Dragonlord and held the deck back. My deck was 7-4 vs Cawblade and 9-0 vs Valakut. Both decks were just about to do something powerful when my deck killed them. Most of my Cawblade losses were due to Gideon Jura. Its real kryptonite, however, was UB Control. That deck could counter and kill my threats too easily and then stabilize and win. I was 2-9 vs UB control. It also did quite poorly against vampires or really anything with black due to creature kill. Ah, good times...my first standard season.
>_> On a serious note I don't know if that will actually be better than the white one with flash back. We'll see.
It was more of a pointy finger at their logic about cards for other decks coming out. Strictly by numbers, sure, there are cards for 3 other colors that go into other decks. But then they print crap like this that still gives the delver player another option in their toolbox. I doubt anyone was considering playing Sleep, but this one is just so much easier and will do the job just as well most of the time.
However, I'd be just happy with you posting pictures of Susan Coffey until this thread dies. I only recently 'discovered' her and holy hell...
My list was a bit unconventional. It was my first deck and I loved it. I never went less than 3-1 at FNM with it and usually went 4-0. Of course, I didn't play at any higher level events but my store, Legion Games, is the #1 store in Minnesota and I played against skilled players with tier 1 decks. I had 4-ofs of Guide, Kiln Fiend, Kargan Dragonlord, Koth, Lightning Bolt, Burst Lightning, Forked Bolt and Flame Slash. Then I had 3 Assault Strobe, the best card in the deck. I had 2 flex spots that I tried a different thing every week to keep it interesting. Cards played in these spots included Searing Blaze, Arc Trail, Inferno Titan, Mark of Mutiny and Lust for War (a criminally underrated card). Then I had 23 lands - 2 Smoldering Spires, 2 Teetering Peaks and 19 Mountain. Most people were trying the Plated Geopede landfall thing but I always thought he sucked compared to Kiln Fiend and Kargan Dragonlord and held the deck back. My deck was 7-4 vs Cawblade and 9-0 vs Valakut. Both decks were just about to do something powerful when my deck killed them. Most of my Cawblade losses were due to Gideon Jura. Its real kryptonite, however, was UB Control. That deck could counter and kill my threats too easily and then stabilize and win. I was 2-9 vs UB control. It also did quite poorly against vampires or really anything with black due to creature kill. Ah, good times...my first standard season.
Seems like a really bad deck for last season. That store must have been in a lull if it is one of the states best. On MTGO that list wouldn't have won any matches that didn't involve unforgiving mulligans for the opponent.
Seems like a really bad deck for last season. That store must have been in a lull if it is one of the states best. On MTGO that list wouldn't have won any matches that didn't involve unforgiving mulligans for the opponent.
Your speculation there proves one thing: you have a poor ability to evaluate Sligh decks. It's ok, I didn't think it would work so well either until I played it in over 50 matches.
I agree that delver is a very good arch type but not unbeatable. I think if any thing should be banned it should be swords of war and peace, and that's comming from a player who loves the card and plays it often. Its a card that wins games.
I agree that delver is a very good arch type but not unbeatable. I think if any thing should be banned it should be swords of war and peace, and that's comming from a player who loves the card and plays it often. Its a card that wins games.
Without SoWaP, BW tokens would eat Delver alive.
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"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
- H. L. Mencken
Your speculation there proves one thing: you have a poor ability to evaluate Sligh decks. It's ok, I didn't think it would work so well either until I played it in over 50 matches.
Every one I played it in. I was new to Magic and didn't know such things existed. I knew pros played on the pro tour and that I played at FNM. I had no idea that there was an in-between that I could just go to without a high rating. I work or spend time with my family on the weekends anyways. I have only played in one PTQ in my life. It was sealed and I scrubbed out hard.
I only claimed that the list/I was very successful against Cawblade and Valakut but it had weaknesses to other decks and I already stated that I never played it beyond FNM. I wasn't saying that it was the great unknown deck that should have dominated Standard if only people were playing it more.
I have played at weak and strong stores. I knew what the tier 1 decks were. It was a competitive FNM with mostly (70%) tier 1 decks. There are several regular players there that have been on the pro tour. I have not done so well at this store with my brews since, usually going 2-2.
EDIT: I usually go 4-0 or 3-1 in Legacy (a format I focus on far more), just not Standard. I also got 2nd at both of the modern tournaments I entered (50+ people with top-8 single elimination) with the sligh list in my signature so I feel like I know fast red decks fairly well.
Every one I played it in. I was new to Magic and didn't know such things existed. I knew pros played on the pro tour and that I played at FNM. I had no idea that there was an in-between that I could just go to without a high rating. I work or spend time with my family on the weekends anyways. I have only played in one PTQ in my life. It was sealed and I scrubbed out hard.
So you didn't win any of them, since this paragraph has two answers, then a half-assed story attempting to salvage your claim in a mediocre fashion.
Next....
Delver is a problem, it's the best deck by a good margin in the format. It is not unbeatable, but that is no reason to not play it.
So you didn't win any of them, since this paragraph has two answers, then a half-assed story attempting to salvage your claim in a mediocre fashion.
Next....
Delver is a problem, it's the best deck by a good margin in the format. It is not unbeatable, but that is no reason to not play it.
Actually, there are a lot of reasons not to play Delver.
1. You hate the deck.
2. You aren't that good a player. Delver has a ton of decisions and in the hands of a poor pilot, like myself, will totally crap out on you. I'll never play the deck again.
3. Your meta specifically hates against Delver decks and those decks don't fold to other decks. For example, your meta has no WRR. So you can play decks that would normally fold to WRR in order to beat Delver because you don't have to worry about WRR. Such is the case where I am. Nobody plays WRR anymore and only 2 people play Delver. This allows for a very diverse meta. YMMV.
So yes, there are reasons not to play Delver. I've made top 8 or better 21 times this standard...and not one of them was playing Delver. In fact, only twice did I play what was considered a top tier deck in those 21 weeks.
Actually, there are a lot of reasons not to play Delver.
1. You hate the deck.
2. You aren't that good a player. Delver has a ton of decisions and in the hands of a poor pilot, like myself, will totally crap out on you. I'll never play the deck again.
3. Your meta specifically hates against Delver decks and those decks don't fold to other decks. For example, your meta has no WRR. So you can play decks that would normally fold to WRR in order to beat Delver because you don't have to worry about WRR. Such is the case where I am. Nobody plays WRR anymore and only 2 people play Delver. This allows for a very diverse meta. YMMV.
So yes, there are reasons not to play Delver. I've made top 8 or better 21 times this standard...and not one of them was playing Delver. In fact, only twice did I play what was considered a top tier deck in those 21 weeks.
Delver is not the be all and end all.
I'm in a similar boat when it comes to the no WRR thing. Granted, people still don't board much Delver hate because I'm the only one that plays it from week to week. Everyone boards Solar Flare hate (we have 4-6 players that play it >_>)
Strange world, sometimes.
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Currently Playing:
Standard: UW HumansWU
Record - 49-19-3 - Retired, for now. WUDelverUW
Record - 29-10-1
So yes, there are reasons not to play Delver. I've made top 8 or better 21 times this standard at FNM ...and not one of them was playing Delver. In fact, only twice did I play what was considered a top tier deck in those 21 weeks.
Fixed that for you. You forgot to mention how competitive your FNM is though.
... then a half-assed story attempting to salvage your claim in a mediocre fashion.
I only "claimed" that my deck had a strong match-up against Cawblade and Valakut and that it wasn't "bad". I never misrepresented the level of tournaments I was playing in, the quality of players that I was playing against or the decks that I was playing against.
Is it possible that small sample size and luck factored into my success and that my experience doesn't necessarily mean that my RDW list was dominant over Cawblade and Valakut? Certainly. However, by my experience, it was; I claimed nothing more. To me this means it wasn't a "bad" deck as it had good match-ups against the two best decks in the format. It wasn't the best deck either, but certainly not bad.
I never stated the deck was dominant over every deck in the format and I admitted that it had very bad match-ups against some prominent decks such as UB Control. I also forgot how bad the match-up was against Splinter Twin, even with Combust.
Either way, I have more to back up my statements than Madding did to back up his pure speculation.
Either way, I have more to back up my statements than Madding did to back up his pure speculation.
Except that your results don't matter. That's the whole point. You beat some people playing CawBlade at FNM. Congrats. That doesn't make your deck good.
To be fair, a deck very similar to what he describes had excellent results in the SCG Open series for a short while, piloted by Gerry Thompson and I believe (might be wrong) Cedric Phillips. Their version was a little different, but the concept was exactly the same.
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Except that your results don't matter. That's the whole point. You beat some people playing CawBlade at FNM. Congrats. That doesn't make your deck good.
It also doesn't make it bad.
I beat two people playing Cawblade who later played the deck at a Pro Tour. It wasn't just scrubs.
Most Cawblade decks didn't have a good way to deal with a Kiln Fiend swinging for 20 on turn 3. I burst lightning their stoneforge, they activate in response, bringing in batterskull. I Flame slash the token, cast assault strobe and kill them. It happened all the time.
As for playing elsewhere, I actually travel for FNM - the venue I go to is one of the strongest in Australia (Jeremy Neeman is a regular for example), so I am missing out on a lot if I don't go. My actual local doesnt play standard, just draft. AVR draft sucks, but maybe that is preferrable?
I don't know. I do know that I feel much, much more frustrated playing against UW delver than I ever did playing cawblade - weird right?
Want to see me in action? Check out my stream! Currently broadcasting Boros Burn in Standard. Full archive available.
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IU : Time walk
Two turns later
Snapcaster Mage, flash back Time Walk
>_> On a serious note I don't know if that will actually be better than the white one with flash back. We'll see.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
I'm not surprised at the lack of a ban. They "banned" Mana Leak and Ponder by not putting them in M13.
Big Thanks to Xeno for sig art <3.
This is the smartest thing I have seen on here to date. Have a cookie. (seriously, no sarcasm!!!)
Decks I am playing:
taking suggestions (Legacy)
Elf Company GW (Modern)
Abbot Aggro R (Standard)
Maralen of the Mornsong B(Commander)
My list was a bit unconventional. It was my first deck and I loved it. I never went less than 3-1 at FNM with it and usually went 4-0. Of course, I didn't play at any higher level events but my store, Legion Games, is the #1 store in Minnesota and I played against skilled players with tier 1 decks. I had 4-ofs of Guide, Kiln Fiend, Kargan Dragonlord, Koth, Lightning Bolt, Burst Lightning, Forked Bolt and Flame Slash. Then I had 3 Assault Strobe, the best card in the deck. I had 2 flex spots that I tried a different thing every week to keep it interesting. Cards played in these spots included Searing Blaze, Arc Trail, Inferno Titan, Mark of Mutiny and Lust for War (a criminally underrated card). Then I had 23 lands - 2 Smoldering Spires, 2 Teetering Peaks and 19 Mountain. Most people were trying the Plated Geopede landfall thing but I always thought he sucked compared to Kiln Fiend and Kargan Dragonlord and held the deck back. My deck was 7-4 vs Cawblade and 9-0 vs Valakut. Both decks were just about to do something powerful when my deck killed them. Most of my Cawblade losses were due to Gideon Jura. Its real kryptonite, however, was UB Control. That deck could counter and kill my threats too easily and then stabilize and win. I was 2-9 vs UB control. It also did quite poorly against vampires or really anything with black due to creature kill. Ah, good times...my first standard season.
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener
However, I'd be just happy with you posting pictures of Susan Coffey until this thread dies. I only recently 'discovered' her and holy hell...
Seems like a really bad deck for last season. That store must have been in a lull if it is one of the states best. On MTGO that list wouldn't have won any matches that didn't involve unforgiving mulligans for the opponent.
Your speculation there proves one thing: you have a poor ability to evaluate Sligh decks. It's ok, I didn't think it would work so well either until I played it in over 50 matches.
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener
scg sold out scm in one day after noban
hope you got yours:)
Without SoWaP, BW tokens would eat Delver alive.
- H. L. Mencken
French Duel Commander
WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR
RUG Maelstrom Wanderer RUG
Which GPS and/or PTQs did you win with that list?
Every one I played it in. I was new to Magic and didn't know such things existed. I knew pros played on the pro tour and that I played at FNM. I had no idea that there was an in-between that I could just go to without a high rating. I work or spend time with my family on the weekends anyways. I have only played in one PTQ in my life. It was sealed and I scrubbed out hard.
I only claimed that the list/I was very successful against Cawblade and Valakut but it had weaknesses to other decks and I already stated that I never played it beyond FNM. I wasn't saying that it was the great unknown deck that should have dominated Standard if only people were playing it more.
I have played at weak and strong stores. I knew what the tier 1 decks were. It was a competitive FNM with mostly (70%) tier 1 decks. There are several regular players there that have been on the pro tour. I have not done so well at this store with my brews since, usually going 2-2.
EDIT: I usually go 4-0 or 3-1 in Legacy (a format I focus on far more), just not Standard. I also got 2nd at both of the modern tournaments I entered (50+ people with top-8 single elimination) with the sligh list in my signature so I feel like I know fast red decks fairly well.
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener
So you didn't win any of them, since this paragraph has two answers, then a half-assed story attempting to salvage your claim in a mediocre fashion.
Next....
Delver is a problem, it's the best deck by a good margin in the format. It is not unbeatable, but that is no reason to not play it.
Actually, there are a lot of reasons not to play Delver.
1. You hate the deck.
2. You aren't that good a player. Delver has a ton of decisions and in the hands of a poor pilot, like myself, will totally crap out on you. I'll never play the deck again.
3. Your meta specifically hates against Delver decks and those decks don't fold to other decks. For example, your meta has no WRR. So you can play decks that would normally fold to WRR in order to beat Delver because you don't have to worry about WRR. Such is the case where I am. Nobody plays WRR anymore and only 2 people play Delver. This allows for a very diverse meta. YMMV.
So yes, there are reasons not to play Delver. I've made top 8 or better 21 times this standard...and not one of them was playing Delver. In fact, only twice did I play what was considered a top tier deck in those 21 weeks.
Delver is not the be all and end all.
Want to see me in action? Check out my stream! Currently broadcasting Boros Burn in Standard. Full archive available.
Want to play better magic? Come join us at diestoremoval.com
I'm in a similar boat when it comes to the no WRR thing. Granted, people still don't board much Delver hate because I'm the only one that plays it from week to week. Everyone boards Solar Flare hate (we have 4-6 players that play it >_>)
Strange world, sometimes.
Standard:
UW HumansWU
Record - 49-19-3 - Retired, for now.
WUDelverUW
Record - 29-10-1
Fixed that for you. You forgot to mention how competitive your FNM is though.
Wow, you're quick.
I only "claimed" that my deck had a strong match-up against Cawblade and Valakut and that it wasn't "bad". I never misrepresented the level of tournaments I was playing in, the quality of players that I was playing against or the decks that I was playing against.
Is it possible that small sample size and luck factored into my success and that my experience doesn't necessarily mean that my RDW list was dominant over Cawblade and Valakut? Certainly. However, by my experience, it was; I claimed nothing more. To me this means it wasn't a "bad" deck as it had good match-ups against the two best decks in the format. It wasn't the best deck either, but certainly not bad.
I never stated the deck was dominant over every deck in the format and I admitted that it had very bad match-ups against some prominent decks such as UB Control. I also forgot how bad the match-up was against Splinter Twin, even with Combust.
Either way, I have more to back up my statements than Madding did to back up his pure speculation.
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener
Except that your results don't matter. That's the whole point. You beat some people playing CawBlade at FNM. Congrats. That doesn't make your deck good.
Want to see me in action? Check out my stream! Currently broadcasting Boros Burn in Standard. Full archive available.
Want to play better magic? Come join us at diestoremoval.com
It also doesn't make it bad.
I beat two people playing Cawblade who later played the deck at a Pro Tour. It wasn't just scrubs.
Most Cawblade decks didn't have a good way to deal with a Kiln Fiend swinging for 20 on turn 3. I burst lightning their stoneforge, they activate in response, bringing in batterskull. I Flame slash the token, cast assault strobe and kill them. It happened all the time.
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener
How competitive? The 12th ranked and 5th ranked players in our state including a former pro player play there.
We're not a bunch of scrubs...except for me. And even I win there.
Okay, THAT'S how competitive.
Thanks Hero's of the Plane
Modern
-------------
xRxAffinityxRx