That being said, sorin's vengeance: it cost BBB and you only have 8Bmana sources. I know it won't come out until late game, but I still worry that you will need more B mana.
This is a very good point. I'm going to drop some green sources for black sources for tonight, and keep track of how much dead weight I carry in my hand every round.
2. I had only one Shrine. So f'ed myself haha. Your idea is fine, but I just did not have the correct cards.
3. Match-ups:
Round 1
vs. Mirror
Deck moved faster than mine somehow. Beat me pretty quick with a Devil's Play even though he said he only has one and used it both games. I swear he constantly had a counter for everything.
Round 2
vs. I think a Grixis with Oliva, and 6 drops
First round, I got a Shrine first turn and got it up to 16. My biggest mistake, I Slagstormed both of us for 3 on my turn to hit 14 on Shrine. I was planning on Desperate Ravings at the end of his turn to get to 15, then upkeep 16. I have one card in hand, Doom Blade. He plays Sorins Vengeance.
2nd game, got Wurmy 4th turn. Opponent did. I got one out but it got leaked. Then, Gruesome Encored.
Round 3
Bye
then I left because Breaking Bad sounded better than losing again. I don't know if it is my inexperience to not know when to play cards, when to SB certain things. I may try again on Tuesday league. I am almost wondering if I should drop the 6 drops and really just go with Shrines. Seems more viable.
That is the layout I am thinking of using except tweaking it a bit to throw in Jace. I like the surprise factor of him and the milling ability against non-GY users is helpful. Beefy cost but worth a go for an extra win-con.
Charmbreaker Devil's seems ok. I prefer a Inferno Titan or a Wurmy but ya never know. The object is to get the cards in your GY though, not take them out.
Great result. I am acutally surprised that someone came up with the chandra pheonix tech. I been using it maindeck for about 3 days now on mtgo before searching this site.
This deck absolutely crushes any control deck. The problem I had in the past was due to the fact that once my opponent realize im going the burning vengeance plan. They just sit on their counters and just wait me out since I had no way to pressure them I just died waiting(to either a fattie which they play after waiting on enough to make my leaks useless or just take out my win condition).
Then I saw Pheonix and how well it works with geistflame.
Now my winrate preboard versus various control decks is good. You usually need a manaleak for their first threat which shouldn't be hard with all the digging. Postboard it gets even better by switching out incinerates for dissipates, it is almost impossible to lose to control.
Ramp is slightly harder preboard as you really need about 3 leaks(between snaps+regular leaks) to stablize. When you have 2 burning vengence out on the field. Their threats is irrelavent as you just kill anything and everything and eventually win with pheonix.
Humans are somewhat easy if you draw an early burning. You have to counter their hero. Everything else dies to burning and geistflame. You have eight ways to take out of geist of saint trafts to they aren't much of a problem if they resolve. Afterboard with 3 combust, the matchup is extremely easy. You no longer fear hero of bladehold that much as you have many ways to deal with an resolved hero. Long game is always in your favor as burning vengeance is much stronger than moorland hunt.
Illusions-easist matchup. Good preboard. Good afterboard. Geistflame wrecks them. Only way to lose this matchup is you let them copy their lord of the unreal with a phantasmal image.
RDW-hardest matchup. Preboard you can't beat a turn 2 shrine no matter what. If they reach 3 mana and have a turn 2 shrine, you lose. Simple as that.
Afterboard, it gets a lot better. Afterboard, you want to grind them out. With an extra incinerate, 3 manic vandal, and 4 dragon claws, I usually gain 15-20 life with a turn 2 dragon claws due to both players casting red spells.
You also have manics to kill shrine or force an early sac.
Posion-too small of a meta to care about. Counter their crusader or lose. Skythix is also annoy. If you meet a lot, just add 4 dismember and the matchup is way in your favor.
A little update on some more testing: This deck is very weak to thrun and I really don't have any fixes other to just maybe have a few fatties like sphinx or wurmcoil in board but atm I don't have space for them. This decks play very much like a counter burn deck. There is no need to tap out as all your draws are instant. Desperate Raving+Forbidden alchemy with main deck pheonix gives so much card advantage and inevitability. I actually won a game where a u/w blade deck purged and oblivion ringed all my vengeance and I just killing him using pheonix+geist combo.The great part of the deck is that I love decks that plays like a control deck vs aggro and aggro deck vs control and this deck does just that.
If anyone has a cooltech vs thrun please give me some suggestion. Rather not play cards like wurmcoil vs ramp.
Played what some would have a hard time calling magic Friday at FNM, but the deck seems to me to be a 'deck', I just don't have the intelligence or ability to develop it into something truly great.
That being said, here are some things I noticed. Chandra, The Firebrand is completely useless. She is basically a drop and start pinging them for 1 every turn. She is coming out, 2x think twice is coming in. Sorin's Vengeance. Not as useless, but much too heavy to cast. Dropping to a 0 or 1 of. Tweaking my card advantage package to 3x Forbidden Alchemy and 4x Desperate ravings (instead of the other way). It just helps me finish people off faster that FA does. Pristine Talisman was great, dropping it turn three and just gaining life was sweet, and it allowed me to FA and Desperate Ravings on turn 4. It just kept my life comfortably farther away from 0 and made stabilizing easier.
The counter suite was amazing, I don't know how this deck could possibly win without it. It turns into a waiting for you to do things so I can kill you with snapcasters flashing back counters situation.
Last minute I changed my shrines to tribute to hunger in the SB. It was a great call, Goodbye dungrove Elder and Thrun!
I think I am going to add 1-2 diabolic tutor and get some think twice in there, to help more consistently draw multiple burning vengeance.
Also, curse of death's hold resolving is basically a win against mono black infect. If you are facing down heavy Chandra's Phoenix, wait until they are tapped out to cast Sever the Bloodline, so they can't burn it in response to fizzle the Sever.
I had 2 copies of Chandra in here, but she turned out to be atrocious. The Sorin's Vengeances are still pretty awesome with just 4 Snapcasters. But it's easy enough to burn them to 10 just with BV, and that will finish it with Sorin's.
The Sever the Bloodline has been really good for me. Has anyone else noticed this deck rolls over and dies to a resolved Wurmcoil Engine? This takes it out, then flashes back!
Also, 3 Ravings because the card has bitten me so many times, in spite of how good it should be (no lands, draw one land then discard it :mad:), and I needed to cut a card. Besides, 11 draw + Snapcaster is still the most of any deck in the format bar none.
I should probably get some artifact removal in there, especially after losing badly to a random game 2 Witchbane Orb (WTF?!?).
Also the manabase isn't perfect. I sometimes have lands ETBT when I don't want them to, and have a bit of trouble casting Sorin's Vengeance sometimes. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
I haven't tested this, but the idea came to me while reading over this thread.
Has anyone tried mulch in a BV deck? I imagine that it would take the place of forbidden alchemy the same way I have heard people try to replace that card with dream twist because of the lower cost (including for flashback) and "drawing" cards into the graveyard. Mulch may make it possible to play a few less lands, and it helps assure that we keep the cards we want in our hands (lands) and send the other cards to the graveyard. The only exception to that, of course, is the BV enchantment itself. I have only flashed back alchemy in a couple games so far, so I imagine that if any of the card draw is susceptible to change, it is that one.
Thoughts on the possibility of replacing forbidden alchemy with some other option?
Not in a million years. Forbidden Alchemy is by far the best card draw in the available suite. Contrary to your observations, I have flashed back Alchemy, often multiple times, in almost every game (assuming I don't die before turn 7, which is rare). While Dream Twist gains CA by milling, not only do you dig one deeper with Alchemy, but you gain a full extra card over the equivalent Dream Twist. There are several cards which do not interact favourably when milled: Burning Vengeance, Snapcaster Mage, Mana Leak, Dissipate, Incinerate, Doom Blade and Slagstorm, to name a few (depending on your build). Not only that, but Alchemy opens up entire decision trees on your opponents turn, responding to a spell to dig up an appropriate answer.
Mulch is not a suitable card in the deck because it:
1) Forces you to play green (more than just Ancient Grudge)
2) Does not have flashback
3) Is extremely random; it reduces consistency
4) Is sorcery-speed
5) Is difficult to cast early game (without a very large green commitment)
If it is replacing Forbidden Alchemy:
6) Fills essentially a different slot due to sorcery-speed
7) Pales in comparison late-game
8) Removes the 'tutoring' utility of Alchemy
9) Has to hit two lands to equal Alchemy (due to Alchemy's flashback counting as an additional card)
Dream Twist is unsuitable because it:
1) Is very random; it reduces consistency
2) Is not guaranteed CA
3) Increases vulnerability to graveyard hate (whereas Alchemy's milling is a side-effect, not the main effect)
If it is replacing Forbidden Alchemy:
4) Fills essentially a different slot due to lack of true card draw (can't put something into hand)
5) Fills essentially a different slot due to vastly different mana costs (really apples and oranges here)
6) Pales in comparison late-game
7) Removes the 'tutoring' utility of Alchemy
8) Always gives one less card than Alchemy (two if you include flashback)
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
@jadencamelot. I like your list a lot, though I agree that you have no way of dealing with artifacts, let alone enchantments. If artifacts is the problem, then Ancient Grudge is probably the go-to card for this deck. That said, you may have to convert your manabase just a little to allow for the green. Not sure if its worth it, but it might. Other than that, you could try disperse on the turn you flashback a lot of stuff for the kill.
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Take a mechanic from the pre-mirrodin era, and a mechanic after the mirrodin era, and create a card that flavorfully melds both mechanics.
I love the Sorins Vengeance idea. I only have 2x Snappys now so I puy in Phoenixs. I am thinking I need to dump the Wurmcoils.
If you're running my list, I'd play a 3rd Sorin's Vengeance and the 4th Desperate Ravings instead of Snapcaster. The Snaps are needed to flashback Sorin's Vengeance, as well as gain CA with counterspells, so that sorta replaces them. Or, you could run a 3rd Dissipate over the 4th Ravings.
Chandra's Phoenix is best used as a 4-of as its own win condition, as opposed to Sorin's Vengeance.
EDIT: Or Devil's Play over the 3rd Sorin's Vengeance is okay too. They fill similar roles.
@jadencamelot. I like your list a lot, though I agree that you have no way of dealing with artifacts, let alone enchantments. If artifacts is the problem, then Ancient Grudge is probably the go-to card for this deck. That said, you may have to convert your manabase just a little to allow for the green. Not sure if its worth it, but it might. Other than that, you could try disperse on the turn you flashback a lot of stuff for the kill.
The manabase is stretched enough as it is with BBB for Sorin's Vengeance. Normally the problem artifacts would be Wurmcoil Engine, Shrine of Burning Rage, and Swords. The Swords are useless without any creatures in play, and they can't have protection from both red and black, so you can just ensure they never equip it and you gain virtual CA. The shrine is probably the biggest pain, and that is dealt with by either Spellskite or
Needs more win-cons besides burning and vengance though, might have to up it to 4 vengance or 3.
I don't know that's such a good idea. The trouble with Sorin's Vengeance is that it costs BBB, which can sometimes be difficult to manage. In addition, you rarely want more than one and never want more than two copies. You only want it lategame and don't want it in your opener often. Three copies would be overkill.
If you want more win conditions, either maindecking 3-4 Chandra's Phoenix, or playing 4 Delver of Secrets in the 75 would be your best bet. In the case of maindecking more creatures, you would be best off cutting Sorin's Vengeance and hence dropping black almost entirely, except for Forbidden Alchemy and possibly Sever the Bloodline. This would lead you to a list looking like Phagocytosis's UR list.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
Has anyone tried rune-scarred demon as an additional win-con? It is a big guy in the air, and brings you an additional burning vengeance. It isn't as heavy black as sorin's vengeance, so you can avoid going over the 2 of or 1 of Sorin's Vengeance, and gives an immediate game impact for resolution with the card tutor, although it is still a 7 drop sorcery speed.
Come to think of it, devil's play would just finish it up and do more for you than a creature and a tutor, with the additional bonus of not being dead weight early game.
Has anyone tried rune-scarred demon as an additional win-con? It is a big guy in the air, and brings you an additional burning vengeance. It isn't as heavy black as sorin's vengeance, so you can avoid going over the 2 of or 1 of Sorin's Vengeance, and gives an immediate game impact for resolution with the card tutor, although it is still a 7 drop sorcery speed.
Come to think of it, devil's play would just finish it up and do more for you than a creature and a tutor, with the additional bonus of not being dead weight early game.
Rune-scarred Demon won't work at all. A big advantage this deck has is that all of your opponent's removal is completely useless. This immediately gains you virtual card advantage, because every removal spell drawn will simply sit in hand. The second you play a Rune-scarred Demon, those two removal spells that made their seven keepable let them blast the demon to hell and back. In 95% of cases, in a long game against a non-RDW deck, it will die almost instantaneously, even through countermagic.
You just spent 10 mana on a Burning Vengeance. Well done.
Now Wurmcoil goes a long way in breaking that cycle, simply because it requires two or three removal spells to kill the damned thing. Trouble is, if you're running two copies, by the time you see one, they have got two or three. Not only that, but Doom Blading it mid-combat also fogs him for a turn. It's been tried before, and if you wanted to run a fat guy I'd recommend it be Wurmcoil.
Devil's Play is great. It's a halfway decent removal spell early on (to quote Chapin), but it also kills them for you late-game. If you don't think Sorin's Vengeance is worth the manabase, run this guy as a 2-of. It can often deal more damage than a single Sorin's Vengeance can (though you can't Snap him for the remainder like you can with Vengeance).
Sorin's Vengeance is my wincon of choice because it's an instant-kill with Snapcaster (or the second copy), it gains you 10 life (priceless against red), and puts them under immense pressure from the second you cast it, while simultaneously alleviating pressure they're putting on you. This is key.
Say they're on 16 life, and you're on 5. If you resolve a Sorin's Vengeance here, suddenly you're able to devote all your resources to killing them, rather than killing their creatures to save yourself. That life buffer is insane, because it turns the tables on them in an instant. Suddenly, they're the control, and you're the beatdown. Every topdeck you make is a threat. But every topdeck you make is either drawing you more cards or killing them faster, or both.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
It picks land off the top of your library (smooths draws) and can help you to stay alive.
(this is assuming you're not trolling; considering the previous suggestions of Mulch and Curse of the Pierced Heart I must address this possibility)
Druidic Satchel is bad here, for several reasons:
1) Flashback is expensive, and this requires a big mana investment.
2) You have more card draw than any other deck in the format bar none, and you routinely flash them back far earlier than other control decks (when everyone else is busy killing stuff/playing Titans. You don't need the draw-smoothing.
3) You don't have Ponder.
4) You don't need the lifegain.
5) The effect is random, decreasing consistency.
6) The card is far worse in its slot than Pristine Talisman, in no small part due to being able to cast the Talisman mid/late game for two mana and requiring no further investment.
7) You have to cut a card.
8) Sadface if there's a Snapcaster on top.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
I wasn't trolling, I only asked because I'm running a budget version of this deck with the Satchels. I'm new to the forums and I don't know if I can post my budget version up in this thread, so I'll keep it to myself, but my deck doesn't have Snapcasters in it. I replaced them with the Satchels, and the Slagstorms with Rolling Temblors (poor substitute, especially with all the Haunt Aggro decks being played), as those are the most expensive cards in the deck right now.
I thought about Talisman, but I preferred the proactivity of the Satchels, although I agree with most of your points.
I've been playing my cheaper version in the Tournament Practice room, and it's been performing pretty well. I may be posting some of my games up on this thread in the future. I've always found the playthrough articles on daily mtg to be especially helpful when learning to play a deck.
EDIT: My deck is almost identical to Chapin's Grixis version, except with the aforementioned changes, and no green splash (I don't own the lands).
I'm new to the forums and I don't know if I can post my budget version up in this thread, so I'll keep it to myself, but my deck doesn't have Snapcasters in it.
I'd love to see your list. I'm not sure how enthusiastic the admins would be, but not running Snapcasters is not as bad as you'd think, and you could make an argument for not running them at all.
Just post your list and see if they complain. This was the budget subforum for ages, I'm not sure if it's changed or not.
I replaced them with the Satchels, and the Slagstorms with Rolling Temblors (poor substitute, especially with all the Haunt Aggro decks being played), as those are the most expensive cards in the deck right now.
I thought about Talisman, but I preferred the proactivity of the Satchels, although I agree with most of your points.
I've been playing my cheaper version in the Tournament Practice room, and it's been performing pretty well. I may be posting some of my games up on this thread in the future. I've always found the playthrough articles on daily mtg to be especially helpful when learning to play a deck.
It's a bit difficult to say without seeing a list, but Rolling Temblor should be fine and again, you could actually make an argument to running them over Slagstorms.
BTW, when I'm talking about Satchel/Talisman, I'm assuming a 1-2 of, or possibly 3. A playset is way too many.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
This is a very good point. I'm going to drop some green sources for black sources for tonight, and keep track of how much dead weight I carry in my hand every round.
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mind explaining the matches? id like to know as i havent tested this deck as much as id like and itd be good to know what you were playing against.
also, did you run Shrines in the main? that's totally wrong, they're strictly boarded in vs control decks that cant kill it.
Incinerate seems like an arbitrary card to be "bad" what wasn't it accomplishing?
2. I had only one Shrine. So f'ed myself haha. Your idea is fine, but I just did not have the correct cards.
3. Match-ups:
Round 1
vs. Mirror
Deck moved faster than mine somehow. Beat me pretty quick with a Devil's Play even though he said he only has one and used it both games. I swear he constantly had a counter for everything.
Round 2
vs. I think a Grixis with Oliva, and 6 drops
First round, I got a Shrine first turn and got it up to 16. My biggest mistake, I Slagstormed both of us for 3 on my turn to hit 14 on Shrine. I was planning on Desperate Ravings at the end of his turn to get to 15, then upkeep 16. I have one card in hand, Doom Blade. He plays Sorins Vengeance.
2nd game, got Wurmy 4th turn. Opponent did. I got one out but it got leaked. Then, Gruesome Encored.
Round 3
Bye
then I left because Breaking Bad sounded better than losing again. I don't know if it is my inexperience to not know when to play cards, when to SB certain things. I may try again on Tuesday league. I am almost wondering if I should drop the 6 drops and really just go with Shrines. Seems more viable.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/22920_Innovations_Grixis_With_A_Vengeance.html
That is the layout I am thinking of using except tweaking it a bit to throw in Jace. I like the surprise factor of him and the milling ability against non-GY users is helpful. Beefy cost but worth a go for an extra win-con.
Charmbreaker Devil's seems ok. I prefer a Inferno Titan or a Wurmy but ya never know. The object is to get the cards in your GY though, not take them out.
My list atm is:
4 chandra's phoenix
4 geistflame
3 incinerate
4 burning vengeance
4 desperate raving
4 forbidden alchemy
4 mana leak
2 blackcleave cliffs
2 drowned catacombs
4 sulfur falls
9 mountain
8 island
sideboard:
4 dissipate
3 manic vandal
4 dragon claws
1 incinerate
This deck absolutely crushes any control deck. The problem I had in the past was due to the fact that once my opponent realize im going the burning vengeance plan. They just sit on their counters and just wait me out since I had no way to pressure them I just died waiting(to either a fattie which they play after waiting on enough to make my leaks useless or just take out my win condition).
Then I saw Pheonix and how well it works with geistflame.
Now my winrate preboard versus various control decks is good. You usually need a manaleak for their first threat which shouldn't be hard with all the digging. Postboard it gets even better by switching out incinerates for dissipates, it is almost impossible to lose to control.
Ramp is slightly harder preboard as you really need about 3 leaks(between snaps+regular leaks) to stablize. When you have 2 burning vengence out on the field. Their threats is irrelavent as you just kill anything and everything and eventually win with pheonix.
Humans are somewhat easy if you draw an early burning. You have to counter their hero. Everything else dies to burning and geistflame. You have eight ways to take out of geist of saint trafts to they aren't much of a problem if they resolve. Afterboard with 3 combust, the matchup is extremely easy. You no longer fear hero of bladehold that much as you have many ways to deal with an resolved hero. Long game is always in your favor as burning vengeance is much stronger than moorland hunt.
Illusions-easist matchup. Good preboard. Good afterboard. Geistflame wrecks them. Only way to lose this matchup is you let them copy their lord of the unreal with a phantasmal image.
RDW-hardest matchup. Preboard you can't beat a turn 2 shrine no matter what. If they reach 3 mana and have a turn 2 shrine, you lose. Simple as that.
Afterboard, it gets a lot better. Afterboard, you want to grind them out. With an extra incinerate, 3 manic vandal, and 4 dragon claws, I usually gain 15-20 life with a turn 2 dragon claws due to both players casting red spells.
You also have manics to kill shrine or force an early sac.
Posion-too small of a meta to care about. Counter their crusader or lose. Skythix is also annoy. If you meet a lot, just add 4 dismember and the matchup is way in your favor.
A little update on some more testing: This deck is very weak to thrun and I really don't have any fixes other to just maybe have a few fatties like sphinx or wurmcoil in board but atm I don't have space for them. This decks play very much like a counter burn deck. There is no need to tap out as all your draws are instant. Desperate Raving+Forbidden alchemy with main deck pheonix gives so much card advantage and inevitability. I actually won a game where a u/w blade deck purged and oblivion ringed all my vengeance and I just killing him using pheonix+geist combo.The great part of the deck is that I love decks that plays like a control deck vs aggro and aggro deck vs control and this deck does just that.
If anyone has a cooltech vs thrun please give me some suggestion. Rather not play cards like wurmcoil vs ramp.
That being said, here are some things I noticed. Chandra, The Firebrand is completely useless. She is basically a drop and start pinging them for 1 every turn. She is coming out, 2x think twice is coming in. Sorin's Vengeance. Not as useless, but much too heavy to cast. Dropping to a 0 or 1 of. Tweaking my card advantage package to 3x Forbidden Alchemy and 4x Desperate ravings (instead of the other way). It just helps me finish people off faster that FA does. Pristine Talisman was great, dropping it turn three and just gaining life was sweet, and it allowed me to FA and Desperate Ravings on turn 4. It just kept my life comfortably farther away from 0 and made stabilizing easier.
The counter suite was amazing, I don't know how this deck could possibly win without it. It turns into a waiting for you to do things so I can kill you with snapcasters flashing back counters situation.
Last minute I changed my shrines to tribute to hunger in the SB. It was a great call, Goodbye dungrove Elder and Thrun!
I think I am going to add 1-2 diabolic tutor and get some think twice in there, to help more consistently draw multiple burning vengeance.
Also, curse of death's hold resolving is basically a win against mono black infect. If you are facing down heavy Chandra's Phoenix, wait until they are tapped out to cast Sever the Bloodline, so they can't burn it in response to fizzle the Sever.
Current List:
5 Island
3 Mountain
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Drowned Catacomb
2 Copperline Gorge
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Shimmering Grotto
Creatures:
4 Snapcaster Mage
Spells:
3 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Think Twice (possible Diabolic Tutor)
2 Doom Blade
1 Sever the Bloodline
4 Burning Vengeance
4 Desperate Ravings
3 Mana Leak
3 Pristine Talisman
3 Geistflame
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Dissipate
2 Negate
2 Slagstorm
1 Geistflame
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Tribute to Hunger
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Flashfreeze
2 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Black Sun's Zenith
3 Phyrexian Metamorph (or phantasmal images)
(disclaimer: Do not copy my manabase, it's terrible)
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Current list:
2 Sorin's Vengeance
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Think Twice
3 Desperate Ravings
4 Mana Leak
2 Dissipate
3 Geistflame
2 Doom Blade
1 Sever the Bloodline
3 Slagstorm
2 Dragonskull Summit
4 Drowned Catacomb
1 Darkslick Shores
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
5 Island
4 Mountain
4 Shrine of Burning Rage
1 Sever the Bloodline
1 Rolling Temblor
1 Slagstorm
1 Geistflame
3 Phantasmal Image
2 Flashfreeze
2 Dissipate
I had 2 copies of Chandra in here, but she turned out to be atrocious. The Sorin's Vengeances are still pretty awesome with just 4 Snapcasters. But it's easy enough to burn them to 10 just with BV, and that will finish it with Sorin's.
The Sever the Bloodline has been really good for me. Has anyone else noticed this deck rolls over and dies to a resolved Wurmcoil Engine? This takes it out, then flashes back!
Also, 3 Ravings because the card has bitten me so many times, in spite of how good it should be (no lands, draw one land then discard it :mad:), and I needed to cut a card. Besides, 11 draw + Snapcaster is still the most of any deck in the format bar none.
I should probably get some artifact removal in there, especially after losing badly to a random game 2 Witchbane Orb (WTF?!?).
Also the manabase isn't perfect. I sometimes have lands ETBT when I don't want them to, and have a bit of trouble casting Sorin's Vengeance sometimes. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Phantasmal Image.
Domain Zoo
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Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
Has anyone tried mulch in a BV deck? I imagine that it would take the place of forbidden alchemy the same way I have heard people try to replace that card with dream twist because of the lower cost (including for flashback) and "drawing" cards into the graveyard. Mulch may make it possible to play a few less lands, and it helps assure that we keep the cards we want in our hands (lands) and send the other cards to the graveyard. The only exception to that, of course, is the BV enchantment itself. I have only flashed back alchemy in a couple games so far, so I imagine that if any of the card draw is susceptible to change, it is that one.
Thoughts on the possibility of replacing forbidden alchemy with some other option?
Mulch is not a suitable card in the deck because it:
1) Forces you to play green (more than just Ancient Grudge)
2) Does not have flashback
3) Is extremely random; it reduces consistency
4) Is sorcery-speed
5) Is difficult to cast early game (without a very large green commitment)
If it is replacing Forbidden Alchemy:
6) Fills essentially a different slot due to sorcery-speed
7) Pales in comparison late-game
8) Removes the 'tutoring' utility of Alchemy
9) Has to hit two lands to equal Alchemy (due to Alchemy's flashback counting as an additional card)
Dream Twist is unsuitable because it:
1) Is very random; it reduces consistency
2) Is not guaranteed CA
3) Increases vulnerability to graveyard hate (whereas Alchemy's milling is a side-effect, not the main effect)
If it is replacing Forbidden Alchemy:
4) Fills essentially a different slot due to lack of true card draw (can't put something into hand)
5) Fills essentially a different slot due to vastly different mana costs (really apples and oranges here)
6) Pales in comparison late-game
7) Removes the 'tutoring' utility of Alchemy
8) Always gives one less card than Alchemy (two if you include flashback)
Domain Zoo
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Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
Take a mechanic from the pre-mirrodin era, and a mechanic after the mirrodin era, and create a card that flavorfully melds both mechanics.
I love casting Sorin's Vengance and getting multiple burnings up there for 4 damage a think twice.
Needs more win-cons besides burning and vengance though, might have to up it to 4 vengance or 3.
If you're running my list, I'd play a 3rd Sorin's Vengeance and the 4th Desperate Ravings instead of Snapcaster. The Snaps are needed to flashback Sorin's Vengeance, as well as gain CA with counterspells, so that sorta replaces them. Or, you could run a 3rd Dissipate over the 4th Ravings.
Chandra's Phoenix is best used as a 4-of as its own win condition, as opposed to Sorin's Vengeance.
EDIT: Or Devil's Play over the 3rd Sorin's Vengeance is okay too. They fill similar roles.
The manabase is stretched enough as it is with BBB for Sorin's Vengeance. Normally the problem artifacts would be Wurmcoil Engine, Shrine of Burning Rage, and Swords. The Swords are useless without any creatures in play, and they can't have protection from both red and black, so you can just ensure they never equip it and you gain virtual CA. The shrine is probably the biggest pain, and that is dealt with by either Spellskite or
I don't know that's such a good idea. The trouble with Sorin's Vengeance is that it costs BBB, which can sometimes be difficult to manage. In addition, you rarely want more than one and never want more than two copies. You only want it lategame and don't want it in your opener often. Three copies would be overkill.
If you want more win conditions, either maindecking 3-4 Chandra's Phoenix, or playing 4 Delver of Secrets in the 75 would be your best bet. In the case of maindecking more creatures, you would be best off cutting Sorin's Vengeance and hence dropping black almost entirely, except for Forbidden Alchemy and possibly Sever the Bloodline. This would lead you to a list looking like Phagocytosis's UR list.
EDIT:
Agreed. The main issue is that your opponent stockpiles all their removal and your six-drop dies instantaneously.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
Come to think of it, devil's play would just finish it up and do more for you than a creature and a tutor, with the additional bonus of not being dead weight early game.
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My Trading Thread
Rune-scarred Demon > Wurmcoil Engine > Devil's Play > Sorin's Vengeance.
Rune-scarred Demon won't work at all. A big advantage this deck has is that all of your opponent's removal is completely useless. This immediately gains you virtual card advantage, because every removal spell drawn will simply sit in hand. The second you play a Rune-scarred Demon, those two removal spells that made their seven keepable let them blast the demon to hell and back. In 95% of cases, in a long game against a non-RDW deck, it will die almost instantaneously, even through countermagic.
You just spent 10 mana on a Burning Vengeance. Well done.
Now Wurmcoil goes a long way in breaking that cycle, simply because it requires two or three removal spells to kill the damned thing. Trouble is, if you're running two copies, by the time you see one, they have got two or three. Not only that, but Doom Blading it mid-combat also fogs him for a turn. It's been tried before, and if you wanted to run a fat guy I'd recommend it be Wurmcoil.
Devil's Play is great. It's a halfway decent removal spell early on (to quote Chapin), but it also kills them for you late-game. If you don't think Sorin's Vengeance is worth the manabase, run this guy as a 2-of. It can often deal more damage than a single Sorin's Vengeance can (though you can't Snap him for the remainder like you can with Vengeance).
Sorin's Vengeance is my wincon of choice because it's an instant-kill with Snapcaster (or the second copy), it gains you 10 life (priceless against red), and puts them under immense pressure from the second you cast it, while simultaneously alleviating pressure they're putting on you. This is key.
Say they're on 16 life, and you're on 5. If you resolve a Sorin's Vengeance here, suddenly you're able to devote all your resources to killing them, rather than killing their creatures to save yourself. That life buffer is insane, because it turns the tables on them in an instant. Suddenly, they're the control, and you're the beatdown. Every topdeck you make is a threat. But every topdeck you make is either drawing you more cards or killing them faster, or both.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
...
You're trolling, right?
Short answer: No.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
It picks land off the top of your library (smooths draws) and can help you to stay alive.
(this is assuming you're not trolling; considering the previous suggestions of Mulch and Curse of the Pierced Heart I must address this possibility)
Druidic Satchel is bad here, for several reasons:
1) Flashback is expensive, and this requires a big mana investment.
2) You have more card draw than any other deck in the format bar none, and you routinely flash them back far earlier than other control decks (when everyone else is busy killing stuff/playing Titans. You don't need the draw-smoothing.
3) You don't have Ponder.
4) You don't need the lifegain.
5) The effect is random, decreasing consistency.
6) The card is far worse in its slot than Pristine Talisman, in no small part due to being able to cast the Talisman mid/late game for two mana and requiring no further investment.
7) You have to cut a card.
8) Sadface if there's a Snapcaster on top.
Anyone tested the deck lately?
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
I thought about Talisman, but I preferred the proactivity of the Satchels, although I agree with most of your points.
I've been playing my cheaper version in the Tournament Practice room, and it's been performing pretty well. I may be posting some of my games up on this thread in the future. I've always found the playthrough articles on daily mtg to be especially helpful when learning to play a deck.
EDIT: My deck is almost identical to Chapin's Grixis version, except with the aforementioned changes, and no green splash (I don't own the lands).
Sorry about that. Satchels could work, I just wouldn't run them.
I'd love to see your list. I'm not sure how enthusiastic the admins would be, but not running Snapcasters is not as bad as you'd think, and you could make an argument for not running them at all.
Just post your list and see if they complain. This was the budget subforum for ages, I'm not sure if it's changed or not.
It's a bit difficult to say without seeing a list, but Rolling Temblor should be fine and again, you could actually make an argument to running them over Slagstorms.
BTW, when I'm talking about Satchel/Talisman, I'm assuming a 1-2 of, or possibly 3. A playset is way too many.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes: