Haven't tested it out yet, but there's got to be an awesome U/B Zombie/tempo deck somewhere in here. What you see here is pretty much what you get. Fast zombies, lords, liliana for sac/discard, thought scour and gitaxian probe as more 1 drops and things to do turn 2 where there is a huge void in the mana curve when it comes to playable cards. They also play well with snapcaster mage. Vapor snag is a killer tempo card and I think will become more important as undying/3cc lords become more and more popular. Ghoulcaller's chant is horrible when you're bringing back 2 1cc zombies, but 2 lords is another matter entirely, and pretty awesome at that.
how do we feel about Havengeful runebinder in the deck?
Havengul Runebinder 2UU
Creature - Human Wizard 2,U ,tap, Exile a creature card from your graveyard: Put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield, then put a +1/+1 counter on each Zombie creature you control.
i think it goes great with our other lords and is just a ridiculous card in general for zombies since it both builds our army AND makes them PERMANENTLY stronger.
how do we feel about Havengeful runebinder in the deck?
Havengul Runebinder 2UU
Creature - Human Wizard 2,U ,tap, Exile a creature card from your graveyard: Put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield, then put a +1/+1 counter on each Zombie creature you control.
i think it goes great with our other lords and is just a ridiculous card in general for zombies since it both builds our army AND makes them PERMANENTLY stronger.
I saw the Runbinder and had very mixed feelings. This guy makes us not want to reuse our Zombies*, in addition he cost 4 and is not even threatening. He doesn't add synergy to the deck because he is not a Zombie, but he also adds pump to the deck.
*Not that we have something like Unholy Grotto to do that with; we'd basically just not be Exiling Gravecrawler, so maybe it's fair game? Time will tell.
Cemetary reaper is functionally the same thing at 1 mana cheaper and easier on the mana base. He also allows us to exile from our opponents graveyard instead of just our own, and is a zombie himself to synergize with our other lord and gravecrawler.
On the other hand, runebinder can pump all of our guys multiple times.
I could turn out to be wrong, as im having some trouble evaulating this card... but I believe we want 4 Diregraf Captain and 4 Cemetery Reaper before any Havengul Runebinder.
Im really feeling this list, it has heavy aggro implications, and it (in my opinion) has enough removal to outrun a human deck, especially siding in the crusaders. Merfolk are great in modern, and it is because they have 3 great 3 drop lords. This only has 2, but they are very effective. I will probably add 4 ratchet bomb for tokens, though in the SB
that would work as well... my reasoning with the lich moreso than grim-grin is that he can bring back the messenger, and he can bring back opponents creatures. i do really wanna toy with grim-grin as well though. I think they both fit the point
that would work as well... my reasoning with the lich moreso than grim-grin is that he can bring back the messenger, and he can bring back opponents creatures. i do really wanna toy with grim-grin as well though. I think they both fit the point
I honestly don't like Lich in this. IMHO he fits more in a combo deck than any other. Casting creatures from my opponents GY doesn't matter if I don't have the proper mana to cast it. Instead, I rather remove their creatures and give myself a 2/2 token that can attack and/or feed Grimgrin.
I honestly don't like Lich in this. IMHO he fits more in a combo deck than any other. Casting creatures from my opponents GY doesn't matter if I don't have the proper mana to cast it. Instead, I rather remove their creatures and give myself a 2/2 token that can attack and/or feed Grimgrin.
that's a good point. BUT, him and the messenger are gonna be a very good combo. honestly i could see the deck play either way. because, it would have to be a frost or grave, but late game if its gone that long, you can cast it, get the effect, swing with lich and do effect again
Honestly, theyre both really good finishers. i could maybe see doing both, and then seeing which one consistently can win the game over the other?
I wonder why no one posted about Phantasmal Image + Geralfs Messenger. Looks really sweet to me, especially since Image works amazingly well with Undying. You can also achieve incredible amounts of reach, since you effectively play 8 burn spells. 8 Damage out of 2 creatures without even attacking seems huge...
Except it's player-only burn which is historically much worse than actual burn
Also, the Image only comes back as Messenger if the messenger is still on the field. This means you're only getting that 8 damage in the optimal scenario where the Messenger is down when you first play Image and is still down when the Image comes back with Undying
That could be a viable 2-drop actually, i never thought of it. it would trigger the commander still, could copy him or the reaper, or any zombie for that matter. still hoping an actual 2cost zombie pops up though.
Obviously highborn as a 4-of. It's unblockable 2 power in current meta, almost no one plays black or artifacts.
Cat would be nice with reasonable sacrifice outlet like viscera seer or carrion feeder. Currently it is just a 1/1 for 2 that can't even chump a lot of things like flyers or crusaders.
1) Keep the curve low (under 3)
2) Don't get cute with snapcasters which messes your mana base. We want BBB for messenger on turn 3 reliably. Likewise we want BB for verdict if a geist hits the table while we're on the draw.
3) Ponder + Evolving Wilds is nice.
4) Having a two drop isn't that important since we run leak and verdict. Our turn two can be a second one-drop and dismember as well.
5) We want all 8 3-drop lords. Diregraf captain gives amazing inevitability and makes blocking gravecrawler a lose/lose situation. Cemetary reaper does a pretty good moorland haunt impersonation, and fights theirs at the same time.
6) Sideboard obviously depends on your metagame. I think Skinrender is somewhat weak in a BW token and UW delver meta.
7) Drownyard and Alchemy are too slow and durdly and likely not where we want to be.
8) I like image, I just don't know where to fit it.
Dream, I *REALLY* like how concise your creature base is. However, I feel like we could reasonably cut the blue down to nothing but the one in Captain's cost without losing too much from the deck. As a combination sac outlet/draw spell, I like Altar's Reap. Works nicely with Captain/Gravecrawler. Also, I feel like we should be running two Apocalypses as finishers. You may also have a few too many targetted kill spells in there. How would you feel about Endless Ranks of the Dead or Unbreathing Horde to get some extreme pressure advantage going once you get two zombies on board?
Also, worth mentioning, if we include the Altar's Reap/Apocalypse package, my vote for a two drop would go to black cat. Recursive hand ripping is always nice, and like someone said, it basically reads unblockable.
Dream, I *REALLY* like how concise your creature base is. However, I feel like we could reasonably cut the blue down to nothing but the one in Captain's cost without losing too much from the deck. As a combination sac outlet/draw spell, I like Altar's Reap. Works nicely with Captain/Gravecrawler. Also, I feel like we should be running two Apocalypses as finishers. You may also have a few too many targetted kill spells in there. How would you feel about Endless Ranks of the Dead or Unbreathing Horde to get some extreme pressure advantage going once you get two zombies on board?
Also, worth mentioning, if we include the Altar's Reap/Apocalypse package, my vote for a two drop would go to black cat. Recursive hand ripping is always nice, and like someone said, it basically reads unblockable.
My problem with apocalypse is that we're running 22 lands, so hitting 6 lands reliably is going to be tough. It's hilarious in the UW humans matchup, so I can see siding it in there where our creatures are likely trading back and forth and making the game go long. Against control, gravecrawler and reaper are a big enough game.
Altar's reap is worth testing for sure, but I feel it's better against decks that have a lot of targeted removal (like the RB deck that recently Top 8'd the DC SCG). I can see running a few, but I'd much rather play like a tempo deck with some inevitability (like a combination of merfolk and vampires from last season).
I think ten removal spells might be a bit much, I don't think you want more than one in your opening seven. It also provides you with ten dead cards against control, which is too much in my opinion.
Cutting four removal spells and maybe Ponder would open up enough slots for Image plus some kind of other two-drop. Between Gravecrawler, twelve lords and Geralfs Messenger, this looks quite scary.
You're probably right on the removal spells. I can see cutting some verdicts (which are bad against BW tokens and somewhat bad against UW as well) and fitting images in there. A point of contention though, if we're playing image, we almost assuredly want evolving wilds in some number. In testing hitting a blue source by turn 3 was only about 70%, and worse by turn 2. Image also serves as an answer to thrun and geist (since we're cutting verdicts). I think ponder is too good in a deck like this to cut though since we already have blue for captain. So maybe -2 verdict, -1 slip, -1 dismember for 4 image? Do we want slip at all, or do we want to be all in on dismember? Or is Go for the throat better overall?
You're probably right on the removal spells. I can see cutting some verdicts (which are bad against BW tokens and somewhat bad against UW as well) and fitting images in there. A point of contention though, if we're playing image, we almost assuredly want evolving wilds in some number. In testing hitting a blue source by turn 3 was only about 70%, and worse by turn 2. Image also serves as an answer to thrun and geist (since we're cutting verdicts). I think ponder is too good in a deck like this to cut though since we already have blue for captain. So maybe -2 verdict, -1 slip, -1 dismember for 4 image? Do we want slip at all, or do we want to be all in on dismember? Or is Go for the throat better overall?
I find myself discouraged about playing images. If anything, they need to be metamorphs as drawing even an single non-black source early while curving out diregraf/gravecrawler to highborn to lord/ messenger would mess that up.
The list I want to run is creature heavy, with only 3x leak, 3x blade /gfft (I feel blade is better here since I don't have many good ways of dealing with inkmoth) and 3x liliana. I don't know if I value lily to highly here, but she can be game over for quite a bit of decks while barely even a problem for us. Of most of the decks in the format, I can see this zombie deck doing the best at making her ability much more one-sided
I'm largely of the opinion that Slip will be the best kill spell in this format for this deck. Triggering morbid will require no effort with this deck, and we can oh, you know, altar's reap a gravecrawler and bring it back later or some such shenanigans to -13 anything without hexproof. Just remember... it one shots inkmoth and delver before they get stupid. Others, as well. Also, about not hitting 6 mana with 22, last season when I was running merfolk, I ran 23. I won a **** ton of games off the back of hard casting Wurmcoil Engine (the deck could grand architect into him on t3). 6 Mana in that format was easily attainable. In one this slow? Psh. Shouldn't be an issue. And when was it ever bad to one sided Living Death while potentially wrathing your opponent?
Oh, and I would really like a viscera seer, but can't think of any for this format. Did I miss something or are there really no infinite sac outlets in standard right now?
fair enough, especially that the zombie mindset of "they just keep coming" actually applies here. Attack through their defenses with or without blockers, slip cleans up the rest.
and yea, there are no sac multiple times in a turn outlet that i'm aware of.
BR zombies would work too. Burn+life loss from messenger will make a fast work of your opponents' life totals.
Something as simple as:
t1 zombie
t2 zombie
t3 messenger
t4 fling messenger / aristocrat+sac messenger / devil / hero
puts them right about at 0 and is somewhat wrath-proof because of undying and crawler's recursion.
Main problem with cat is 1/1 body isn't worth a card. In fact it's worth 1/4 of a card after the printing of lingering souls, even less since cat doesn't fly.
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4 gravecrawler
4 snapcaster mage
4 diregraf captain
3 cemetery reaper
2 go for the throat
4 thought scour
2 ghoulcaller's chant
4 vapor snag
4 gitaxian probe
4 darkslick shores
7 swamp
7 island
Havengul Runebinder 2UU
Creature - Human Wizard
2,U ,tap, Exile a creature card from your graveyard: Put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield, then put a +1/+1 counter on each Zombie creature you control.
i think it goes great with our other lords and is just a ridiculous card in general for zombies since it both builds our army AND makes them PERMANENTLY stronger.
I saw the Runbinder and had very mixed feelings. This guy makes us not want to reuse our Zombies*, in addition he cost 4 and is not even threatening. He doesn't add synergy to the deck because he is not a Zombie, but he also adds pump to the deck.
*Not that we have something like Unholy Grotto to do that with; we'd basically just not be Exiling Gravecrawler, so maybe it's fair game? Time will tell.
"Reveal a Dragon"
On the other hand, runebinder can pump all of our guys multiple times.
I could turn out to be wrong, as im having some trouble evaulating this card... but I believe we want 4 Diregraf Captain and 4 Cemetery Reaper before any Havengul Runebinder.
4 drowned catacomb
1 island
13 swamp
4 diregraf Ghoul
4 Gravecrawler
4 2CMC Hopefully better than Walking dead zombie
4 Diregraf captain
4 geralf's Messenger
4 cemetery reaper
4 skinrender/Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Havengul lich
2 go for the throat
1 tribute to hunger
2 tragic slip
SIDEBOARD
1 go for the throat
2 tribute to hunger
2 mana leak
4 phyrexian crusader
2 steel sabotage
2 vapor snag
1 zombie apocalypse
Im really feeling this list, it has heavy aggro implications, and it (in my opinion) has enough removal to outrun a human deck, especially siding in the crusaders. Merfolk are great in modern, and it is because they have 3 great 3 drop lords. This only has 2, but they are very effective. I will probably add 4 ratchet bomb for tokens, though in the SB
4 Gravecrawler
4 Geralf's Messenger
3 Cemetery Reaper
3 Diregraf Captain
2 Grimgrin, Corpse Born
4 Tragic Slip
3 Altar's Reap
3 Geth's Verdict
2 Doom Blade
2 Go for the Throat
4 Darkslick Shore
14 Swamp
Sideboard TBA...
that would work as well... my reasoning with the lich moreso than grim-grin is that he can bring back the messenger, and he can bring back opponents creatures. i do really wanna toy with grim-grin as well though. I think they both fit the point
I honestly don't like Lich in this. IMHO he fits more in a combo deck than any other. Casting creatures from my opponents GY doesn't matter if I don't have the proper mana to cast it. Instead, I rather remove their creatures and give myself a 2/2 token that can attack and/or feed Grimgrin.
that's a good point. BUT, him and the messenger are gonna be a very good combo. honestly i could see the deck play either way. because, it would have to be a frost or grave, but late game if its gone that long, you can cast it, get the effect, swing with lich and do effect again
Honestly, theyre both really good finishers. i could maybe see doing both, and then seeing which one consistently can win the game over the other?
Except it's player-only burn which is historically much worse than actual burn
Also, the Image only comes back as Messenger if the messenger is still on the field. This means you're only getting that 8 damage in the optimal scenario where the Messenger is down when you first play Image and is still down when the Image comes back with Undying
Standard:
GU Prophet
Legacy:
WBU Shared Fate
Trades
- Black Cat (which I actually quite like though im sure many will disagree)
- Highborn Ghoul
- Screeching Skaab
What's the verdict?
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
Cat would be nice with reasonable sacrifice outlet like viscera seer or carrion feeder. Currently it is just a 1/1 for 2 that can't even chump a lot of things like flyers or crusaders.
1) Keep the curve low (under 3)
2) Don't get cute with snapcasters which messes your mana base. We want BBB for messenger on turn 3 reliably. Likewise we want BB for verdict if a geist hits the table while we're on the draw.
3) Ponder + Evolving Wilds is nice.
4) Having a two drop isn't that important since we run leak and verdict. Our turn two can be a second one-drop and dismember as well.
5) We want all 8 3-drop lords. Diregraf captain gives amazing inevitability and makes blocking gravecrawler a lose/lose situation. Cemetary reaper does a pretty good moorland haunt impersonation, and fights theirs at the same time.
6) Sideboard obviously depends on your metagame. I think Skinrender is somewhat weak in a BW token and UW delver meta.
7) Drownyard and Alchemy are too slow and durdly and likely not where we want to be.
8) I like image, I just don't know where to fit it.
4 Gravecrawler
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Cemetery Reaper
4 Diregraf Captain
4 Geth's Verdict
3 Tragic Slip
3 Dismember
4 Ponder
4 Drowned Catacomb
1 Island
9 Swamp
4 Evolving Wilds
this would the the list I would run
4x diregraf ghoul
4x black cat
4x highborn ghoul
4x diregraf captain (lord)
4x cemetery reaper (lord)
3x geralf’s messenger
3x doom blade
3x mana leak
4x drowned catacomb
4x darkslick shores
16x swamp
Also, worth mentioning, if we include the Altar's Reap/Apocalypse package, my vote for a two drop would go to black cat. Recursive hand ripping is always nice, and like someone said, it basically reads unblockable.
Modern:
Tokens
My problem with apocalypse is that we're running 22 lands, so hitting 6 lands reliably is going to be tough. It's hilarious in the UW humans matchup, so I can see siding it in there where our creatures are likely trading back and forth and making the game go long. Against control, gravecrawler and reaper are a big enough game.
Altar's reap is worth testing for sure, but I feel it's better against decks that have a lot of targeted removal (like the RB deck that recently Top 8'd the DC SCG). I can see running a few, but I'd much rather play like a tempo deck with some inevitability (like a combination of merfolk and vampires from last season).
You're probably right on the removal spells. I can see cutting some verdicts (which are bad against BW tokens and somewhat bad against UW as well) and fitting images in there. A point of contention though, if we're playing image, we almost assuredly want evolving wilds in some number. In testing hitting a blue source by turn 3 was only about 70%, and worse by turn 2. Image also serves as an answer to thrun and geist (since we're cutting verdicts). I think ponder is too good in a deck like this to cut though since we already have blue for captain. So maybe -2 verdict, -1 slip, -1 dismember for 4 image? Do we want slip at all, or do we want to be all in on dismember? Or is Go for the throat better overall?
^^^
Spam Warning.
I find myself discouraged about playing images. If anything, they need to be metamorphs as drawing even an single non-black source early while curving out diregraf/gravecrawler to highborn to lord/ messenger would mess that up.
The list I want to run is creature heavy, with only 3x leak, 3x blade /gfft (I feel blade is better here since I don't have many good ways of dealing with inkmoth) and 3x liliana. I don't know if I value lily to highly here, but she can be game over for quite a bit of decks while barely even a problem for us. Of most of the decks in the format, I can see this zombie deck doing the best at making her ability much more one-sided
Oh, and I would really like a viscera seer, but can't think of any for this format. Did I miss something or are there really no infinite sac outlets in standard right now?
Modern:
Tokens
and yea, there are no sac multiple times in a turn outlet that i'm aware of.
Something as simple as:
t1 zombie
t2 zombie
t3 messenger
t4 fling messenger / aristocrat+sac messenger / devil / hero
puts them right about at 0 and is somewhat wrath-proof because of undying and crawler's recursion.