I'm not taking this to anything but FNM, but I still want an optimum list. I've went without the Inkmoth Nexus, opting for things that help against aggro. What I'm thinking right now is that I want a playset of either Galvanic Blast or Arc Trail, but I'm not sure what to take out.
I played a WRG deck awhile because before my meta turned the way of control.
You don't need the Inkmoths, they are good but you want to keep your land count as low and forested as possible. I went so far as running Birds of Paradise, Llanowar Elves and Avacyn's Pilgrim all in fours with 20 lands. You probably don't want to take that route and I don't blame you.
You really are going to want at least 8 Dorks though. Gut Shot will happen and you will be sad, but whatever you're both down one minor card. Dorks aren't a major portion of the deck, they just give you a single turn.
You don't need the removal. It's good and all, but it's nothing to really get hung up over. The single Red Sun could be a two of, but forget Gut Shot. Unless I have really just not run this deck in that long I really think the deck is solid without it.
Skinshifter is unnecessary, he is less than average in any form. Replace him with as many Acidic Slime as possible. I don't know how anyone cannot run Slime in Green; I have never been sad drawing this thing (and if I have it's because the game was already over).
Four Primeval Titans, you just need/want to see them as often as possible. They make everything in your deck better by supplying the WR and more forests.
It ran well for me in my area. Meta has changed since I ran it, so some of the things you see in it are out dated.
I ran one Run because if they were killing them then 2 didn't matter to me. It kept my deck faster to have less lands.
If you get moderately lucky you can blitz their mana base with a weird hand of Slimes, GSZ and Beast Within; that's won me a couple games. Watch their land drops on turn 2-5 those matter the most, after that you can forget the idea.
A sideboard trick I removed was Fling I'm still not sure if the card is smart, but it is all kinds of fun. Pump and swing with a huge Dungrove then shoot it at them after combat for the kill. Same things works with Garruk and card draw; he was usually just a "play and sac" walker if the deck was running smoothly.
Keeping hands was something like "nothing more than 2 lands and nothing with less than 2 dorks". Once you drop a land your mana count goes up to 32... not 20 (I don't count WR), so getting mana after that is pretty simple. No one is going to counter/remove all your dorks; that would be a massive waste. Also, the 12 Dorks allowed for T3 Titans to happen some 15% of my games; it is a very low consistency but when it happens people wonder how they'll recover.
Okay, last thing... Wurmcoil comes out in game two unless the match up is totally amazing with them. Inferno Titan comes in. Suddenly you have no artifacts to hate.
@Arkmer:
Playing dungrove run without rampant growth is a mistake because of the great synergy between the 2 spells. A sequence of turn 1 birds into turn 2 elder into turn 3 growth or solemn is pretty brutal.
@Arkmer:
Playing dungrove run without rampant growth is a mistake because of the great synergy between the 2 spells. A sequence of turn 1 birds into turn 2 elder into turn 3 growth or solemn is pretty brutal.
I understand the issue, but adding the Pilgrim over Rampant Growth made the deck speed stupid fast. Not having the card did not slow me down in the least because I was curving so hard every game. Curving into Primeval Titans so fast was way better than Rampant Growth was. Edit: The point I'm trying to make is that I didn't make Dungrove good because of Forests, I made him good because of Primeval Titan.
In addition, I had a stellar match up against RDW because I put 4 more bodies into the deck and lost no ramp power; in fact, I gained speed out of it! They weren't going to burn all my chump blockers, so I had ample time to put down other things and just be more threatening. The size of Dungrove didn't matter to much as long as he was a 3/3 against aggro in short order.
The decks that were faster than me were at a loss because I had more bodies to stall them out, the decks I needed to be fast against could not deal with a T2 Dungrove very well. The surge of UB control in my area pushed me into the list posted in my sig, but that's beyond the OP's question.
I played Mono-Green the first FNM Innistrad was legal, the above list is basically it. The replacements were -all non-Forests -2 Wurmcoil, +4 Forests +3 Primordial Hydra* (I skipped the SB changes). I changed to the posted list when the format realized Wolf Run was amazing. The deck worked in the meta from those days, I promise. Rampant Growth was just to slow for how this deck ran.
*The Hydra was amazing. In the Mono-Green version he was my Fling target for the couple FNMs I used Fling. Otherwise he came down as an early 1/1 and just demanded removal all game. Before I realized Wolf Run existed I actually beat a Naya Wolf Run deck that boarded in 4 Crusaders against me because I had Hydras and Combust; Combust for the Crusaders, Hydra fixed the stalled board position. I think I got lucky that round, but they were stellar games.
I play a much more flexible wolf run green, and consistently beat forested-out WRG decks.
My land base:
14 forests
2 mountain
4 inkmoth nexus
3 kessig
3 rootbound crag
Inkmoth, while not the star player in WRG is generally a blocker and/or trump card to rogue decks you see in FNM.
Oh, you just threw down sheoldred to kill my titan? Ill just animate my land.
Oh, tempered steel's pro color dudes? Cool, I have 10 colorless dudes total, not a problem.
Also, between 4 rampant growths, 4 solemns, and 4 primeval titans, dungroves are still very dangerous very fast.
Additionally, having so many red sources allows you to board red-heavy and be completely fine. The one problem with WRG is that you can't comfortably side in slagstorm, ancient grudge, and inferno titan, all of which are game-winners against aggro, tempered steel, and tezzeret control.
How about "You may discard your hand, pay 5 life, rip this card, remove 3 digits from any number of target fingers you control, and concede at the end of the next end step rather than pay It Will Go Through!!'s mana cost.
Ten, kind of. I had a miscount, thirteen forests, the fourteenth slot being a copperline. Don't forget the four birds, pretty important. And yes, I have never not.been able to grab double red by turn four at latest before, and that's assuming I didn't draw any to just play a red land. Ten red.sources, and sixteen ways to fetch them? Solid.
How about "You may discard your hand, pay 5 life, rip this card, remove 3 digits from any number of target fingers you control, and concede at the end of the next end step rather than pay It Will Go Through!!'s mana cost.
I made top 8 at a GPT (40 people) with my list, narrowly lost to a U/W delver-pike deck because of a misplay on my part. Ratchet bomb has been my MVP throughout the day and I'm thinking of playing 1-2 main deck.
I was the only one playing a dungrove run. There are 3 or 4 other wolf run list all R/G and I think they all ended up with losing records.
I made top 8 at a GPT (40 people) with my list, narrowly lost to a U/W delver-pike deck because of a misplay on my part. Ratchet bomb has been my MVP throughout the day and I'm thinking of playing 1-2 main deck.
I was the only one playing a dungrove run. There are 3 or 4 other wolf run list all R/G and I think they all ended up with losing records.
Glad to hear you did so well, and congrats. I've had problems with Dungrove Green due to the sweepers and counters in my meta. The Delver decks can also be a challenge.
Ratchet Bomb seems like a decent MD option. Any other things you would have liked to have MD? Getting rid of Mirran Crusader can be difficult, and kind of makes me want to play more red.
When I ran Dungrove, I used Blasphemous Acts, which were good against RDW and Humans. However, I'm not sure they are fast enough against the new DelverBlades, which don't generally run more than 1-2 creatures out at a time.
When I ran Dungrove, I used Blasphemous Acts, which were good against RDW and Humans. However, I'm not sure they are fast enough against the new DelverBlades, which don't generally run more than 1-2 creatures out at a time.
Yeah, my problem is, as you said, that Delver decks tend to run out 1-2 1 drop creatures early (bear or delver) and ride them for as long as they can. They will counter/snag anything dangerous you cast, or copy it with Image, and use end of turn snapcaster to use the counters again. They will keep beating you down with 1 or 2 creatures, and if you get rid of a creature, they don't care because they can Moorland Haunt a spirit.
Presently, the sheer "card" advantage that Delver decks have with Moorland Haunt and Snapcaster makes it difficult for us to do anything. And they simply cast a Phantasmal Image to kill our Thruns.
It's a very tough matchup. A Nihil Spellbomb or 2 might be necessary out of the SB. Could potentially get some draw out of it if you have a bird out or if you are playing Sphere.
When I ran Dungrove, I used Blasphemous Acts, which were good against RDW and Humans. However, I'm not sure they are fast enough against the new DelverBlades, which don't generally run more than 1-2 creatures out at a time.
This is the reason why I'm thinking of taking act out of my SB and probably replace them with more ratchet bomb or whipflare. Another tech I'm trying out is a singleton glissa to recur ratchet bomb (inspired by conley woods' jund list).
A tip to people who play wolf run green: Batterskull is 100% better than wurmcoil engine against U/W aggro list. It comes out a turn earlier and it's snag & image proof. The reason I still play wurmcoil in my list is because I only have 1 batterskull.
As of this moment here's what I'm on. I like 7 mana dorks, as turn 2 Dungrove or SoWaP is awesome, I need chaff to sac VS BX control, but they're almost dead draws after the first couple of turns. Speaking of the Swords, I wish I could run 2.5 of them, as that seems like the right number. They Just Win(tm) some games. I like Rampant Growth more than Viridian Emissary, because it always gets me a land, helping Dungrove and moving my gameplay forward. Acidic Slime is a necessary tutor target in my opinion and while I want more equipment hate maindeck, I don't really have room. I have a love hate relationship with Solemn, but it doesn't do enough VS delver and the like to warrant a set in the deck.
Speaking of Delver (and RDW and UW humans, etc), Gut Shot feels like a necessary evil. On the draw, beating a T1 Champion/Delver/Noble can be tough without it, and it also stops a Snapcaster chump block killing your Dungrove, or a an opposing Inkmoth. I don't really like Green Sun's Zenith at least half the time, but they do allow me to play less Thrun, Slime, and Titan, get more Dungroves, grab a ramp creature on T2 for a T3 Garruk or Thrun, and fetch sideboard shenanigans, so I consider them a necessary evil. 4 seems like to many. The quantity of Garruks shifts around, but both do great work against control. I doubt I'll ever go lower than 2 Primal Hunter, since drawing 4-6 cards can win a lot of matches on the spot. With "free" burn spells in the deck, he seems better as well.
The mana is pretty simple. While there is to much hate out there to run a set of Inkmoths due to decks needing to deal with 1 drops, they make good last ditch effort blockers, and can still win an odd match here or there. 25 lands feels perfect, I couldn't see going with less or more at this point. The board is pretty self explanatory. Nihil Spellbomb is a decent way to take a lot of value away from Delver and Solor Flare decks, Autumn's Veil is there to force Garruks through VS control, Karn is for the mirror, Ratchet Bomb handles random permanents tollerably, and tokens very well, and Naturalize stops Sword's and Pikes before they can kill you, as well as dealing with random artifact heavy decks. Ancient Grudge is better on paper, but it can get in the way of the Dungrove plan and doesn't deal with the occasional O-Ring.
I think the Tree of Tales in your sideboard is meant to be a Tree of Redemption... Oh and only 3 primevals???
Correct. Yeah, in this version of the deck, Dungrove's are Titans 1-4, GSZ are Dungrove's 5-7, and Thrun is Dungrove 8-9. Primeval is a great follow up a turn or 2 later, but it's much better with a set of Solemn's, and Solemn and Primeval are not where I want to be in a meta full of Delver decks packing a bunch of bounce.
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4x Birds of Paradise
4x Dungrove Elder
2x Primeval Titan
3x Viridian Emmisary
2x Skinshifter
2x Llanowar Elves
1x Batterskull
Other Spells:
4x Rampant Growth
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Gut Shot
1x Red Sun's Zenith
3x Beast Within
3x Garruk, Primal Hunter
20x Forest
2x Mountian
2x Kessig Wolf Run
Modern:
(online)Enduring Ideal
(online)BUG
(paper)Mono White Control
Standard:
(paper) Whatever I can throw together
(online) UWR Control
Legacy:
(paper)The Gate
(paper)Dream Halls
You don't need the Inkmoths, they are good but you want to keep your land count as low and forested as possible. I went so far as running Birds of Paradise, Llanowar Elves and Avacyn's Pilgrim all in fours with 20 lands. You probably don't want to take that route and I don't blame you.
You really are going to want at least 8 Dorks though. Gut Shot will happen and you will be sad, but whatever you're both down one minor card. Dorks aren't a major portion of the deck, they just give you a single turn.
You don't need the removal. It's good and all, but it's nothing to really get hung up over. The single Red Sun could be a two of, but forget Gut Shot. Unless I have really just not run this deck in that long I really think the deck is solid without it.
Skinshifter is unnecessary, he is less than average in any form. Replace him with as many Acidic Slime as possible. I don't know how anyone cannot run Slime in Green; I have never been sad drawing this thing (and if I have it's because the game was already over).
Four Primeval Titans, you just need/want to see them as often as possible. They make everything in your deck better by supplying the WR and more forests.
My list was once:
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Viridian Emissary
4 Dungrove Elder
4 Acidic Slime
4 Primeval Titan
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Beast Within
3 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Green Sun's Zenith
Land
16 Forest
3 Copperline Gorge
1 Mountain
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Combust
3 Inferno Titan
2 Beast Within
2 Creeping Renaissance
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Tree of Redemption
It ran well for me in my area. Meta has changed since I ran it, so some of the things you see in it are out dated.
I ran one Run because if they were killing them then 2 didn't matter to me. It kept my deck faster to have less lands.
If you get moderately lucky you can blitz their mana base with a weird hand of Slimes, GSZ and Beast Within; that's won me a couple games. Watch their land drops on turn 2-5 those matter the most, after that you can forget the idea.
A sideboard trick I removed was Fling I'm still not sure if the card is smart, but it is all kinds of fun. Pump and swing with a huge Dungrove then shoot it at them after combat for the kill. Same things works with Garruk and card draw; he was usually just a "play and sac" walker if the deck was running smoothly.
Keeping hands was something like "nothing more than 2 lands and nothing with less than 2 dorks". Once you drop a land your mana count goes up to 32... not 20 (I don't count WR), so getting mana after that is pretty simple. No one is going to counter/remove all your dorks; that would be a massive waste. Also, the 12 Dorks allowed for T3 Titans to happen some 15% of my games; it is a very low consistency but when it happens people wonder how they'll recover.
Okay, last thing... Wurmcoil comes out in game two unless the match up is totally amazing with them. Inferno Titan comes in. Suddenly you have no artifacts to hate.
"Reveal a Dragon"
3 primeval titan
2 wurmcoil engine
3 birds of paradise
3 solemn simulacrum
1 acidic slime
1 thrun, the last troll
4 green sun's zenith
4 rampant growth
4 beast within
2 red sun's zenith
2 garruk, primal hunter
1 garruk relentless
1 batterskull
2 kessig wolf run
2 mountain
19 forest
3 blasphemous act
2 ratchet bomb
2 ancient grudge
1 garruk, primal hunter
3 autumn's veil
1 thrun, the last troll
3 gut shot
@Arkmer:
Playing dungrove run without rampant growth is a mistake because of the great synergy between the 2 spells. A sequence of turn 1 birds into turn 2 elder into turn 3 growth or solemn is pretty brutal.
I understand the issue, but adding the Pilgrim over Rampant Growth made the deck speed stupid fast. Not having the card did not slow me down in the least because I was curving so hard every game. Curving into Primeval Titans so fast was way better than Rampant Growth was. Edit: The point I'm trying to make is that I didn't make Dungrove good because of Forests, I made him good because of Primeval Titan.
In addition, I had a stellar match up against RDW because I put 4 more bodies into the deck and lost no ramp power; in fact, I gained speed out of it! They weren't going to burn all my chump blockers, so I had ample time to put down other things and just be more threatening. The size of Dungrove didn't matter to much as long as he was a 3/3 against aggro in short order.
The decks that were faster than me were at a loss because I had more bodies to stall them out, the decks I needed to be fast against could not deal with a T2 Dungrove very well. The surge of UB control in my area pushed me into the list posted in my sig, but that's beyond the OP's question.
I played Mono-Green the first FNM Innistrad was legal, the above list is basically it. The replacements were -all non-Forests -2 Wurmcoil, +4 Forests +3 Primordial Hydra* (I skipped the SB changes). I changed to the posted list when the format realized Wolf Run was amazing. The deck worked in the meta from those days, I promise. Rampant Growth was just to slow for how this deck ran.
*The Hydra was amazing. In the Mono-Green version he was my Fling target for the couple FNMs I used Fling. Otherwise he came down as an early 1/1 and just demanded removal all game. Before I realized Wolf Run existed I actually beat a Naya Wolf Run deck that boarded in 4 Crusaders against me because I had Hydras and Combust; Combust for the Crusaders, Hydra fixed the stalled board position. I think I got lucky that round, but they were stellar games.
"Reveal a Dragon"
My land base:
14 forests
2 mountain
4 inkmoth nexus
3 kessig
3 rootbound crag
Inkmoth, while not the star player in WRG is generally a blocker and/or trump card to rogue decks you see in FNM.
Oh, you just threw down sheoldred to kill my titan? Ill just animate my land.
Oh, tempered steel's pro color dudes? Cool, I have 10 colorless dudes total, not a problem.
Also, between 4 rampant growths, 4 solemns, and 4 primeval titans, dungroves are still very dangerous very fast.
Additionally, having so many red sources allows you to board red-heavy and be completely fine. The one problem with WRG is that you can't comfortably side in slagstorm, ancient grudge, and inferno titan, all of which are game-winners against aggro, tempered steel, and tezzeret control.
I was the only one playing a dungrove run. There are 3 or 4 other wolf run list all R/G and I think they all ended up with losing records.
Glad to hear you did so well, and congrats. I've had problems with Dungrove Green due to the sweepers and counters in my meta. The Delver decks can also be a challenge.
Ratchet Bomb seems like a decent MD option. Any other things you would have liked to have MD? Getting rid of Mirran Crusader can be difficult, and kind of makes me want to play more red.
Yeah, my problem is, as you said, that Delver decks tend to run out 1-2 1 drop creatures early (bear or delver) and ride them for as long as they can. They will counter/snag anything dangerous you cast, or copy it with Image, and use end of turn snapcaster to use the counters again. They will keep beating you down with 1 or 2 creatures, and if you get rid of a creature, they don't care because they can Moorland Haunt a spirit.
Presently, the sheer "card" advantage that Delver decks have with Moorland Haunt and Snapcaster makes it difficult for us to do anything. And they simply cast a Phantasmal Image to kill our Thruns.
It's a very tough matchup. A Nihil Spellbomb or 2 might be necessary out of the SB. Could potentially get some draw out of it if you have a bird out or if you are playing Sphere.
This is the reason why I'm thinking of taking act out of my SB and probably replace them with more ratchet bomb or whipflare. Another tech I'm trying out is a singleton glissa to recur ratchet bomb (inspired by conley woods' jund list).
A tip to people who play wolf run green: Batterskull is 100% better than wurmcoil engine against U/W aggro list. It comes out a turn earlier and it's snag & image proof. The reason I still play wurmcoil in my list is because I only have 1 batterskull.
Speaking of Delver (and RDW and UW humans, etc), Gut Shot feels like a necessary evil. On the draw, beating a T1 Champion/Delver/Noble can be tough without it, and it also stops a Snapcaster chump block killing your Dungrove, or a an opposing Inkmoth. I don't really like Green Sun's Zenith at least half the time, but they do allow me to play less Thrun, Slime, and Titan, get more Dungroves, grab a ramp creature on T2 for a T3 Garruk or Thrun, and fetch sideboard shenanigans, so I consider them a necessary evil. 4 seems like to many. The quantity of Garruks shifts around, but both do great work against control. I doubt I'll ever go lower than 2 Primal Hunter, since drawing 4-6 cards can win a lot of matches on the spot. With "free" burn spells in the deck, he seems better as well.
The mana is pretty simple. While there is to much hate out there to run a set of Inkmoths due to decks needing to deal with 1 drops, they make good last ditch effort blockers, and can still win an odd match here or there. 25 lands feels perfect, I couldn't see going with less or more at this point. The board is pretty self explanatory. Nihil Spellbomb is a decent way to take a lot of value away from Delver and Solor Flare decks, Autumn's Veil is there to force Garruks through VS control, Karn is for the mirror, Ratchet Bomb handles random permanents tollerably, and tokens very well, and Naturalize stops Sword's and Pikes before they can kill you, as well as dealing with random artifact heavy decks. Ancient Grudge is better on paper, but it can get in the way of the Dungrove plan and doesn't deal with the occasional O-Ring.
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Dungrove Elder
1 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Acidic Slime
3 Primeval Titan
Spells
4 Gut Shot
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Rampant Growth
2 Sword of War and Peace
Planeswalkers
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Lands
2 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Inkmoth Nexus
2 Mountain
19 Forest
3 Ratchet Bomb
1 Acidic Slime
2 Naturalize
1 Tree of Tales
1 Batterskull
1 Karn Liberated
3 Autumn's Veil
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Correct. Yeah, in this version of the deck, Dungrove's are Titans 1-4, GSZ are Dungrove's 5-7, and Thrun is Dungrove 8-9. Primeval is a great follow up a turn or 2 later, but it's much better with a set of Solemn's, and Solemn and Primeval are not where I want to be in a meta full of Delver decks packing a bunch of bounce.