I've been seeing quite a bit of talk about Sorin's Vengeance on the site (mainly in the standard deck creation section) and I'm just curious as to what the appeal is. I guess this is mainly because I've seen people are comparing it to Cruel Ultimatum and I just don't see it.
I get that it is a powerful effect but in the long run you aren't really gaining all that much. Seven mana is quite a bit to commit to one card in general. By the time you can cast it against Aggro you should have either taken control of the game or you're already dead, against Control you aren't going to get it through a counter spell past turn 6, and against Combo you are essentially in the same boat as with Aggro.
I feel like there are just much better choices out there for ending a game in Black. I am intrigued though because it does seem to be showing up a fair amount and I'm a currently enjoying playing with Black cards. Can someone please explain the appeal to me? I would like to see the tech to this card if it exists. Thanks in advance.
I play it in Grixis Control as a one-of. It makes a beautiful followup to Grave Titan. Typically, the titan is the finishing move for B/x Control, so once I drop the titan, they make a big move to defend themselves thinking its my bomb, and when they're near tapped out, drop Vengeance. I agree though that it shouldn't be compared to Cruel Ultimatum though. One is a CA machine, one is a kill card.
tl;dr - It's an unexpected win.
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"If all the world's a stage, then I'm the temperamental actor refusing to leave his trailer until his ridiculous demands are met." ~Me UBR - Grixis Control UB - Faeries G - Eldrazi U - Surge Node Control RU - Dragonstorm
EDH: G - Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
Key is remembering tactical use of shades. If you must double-bolt a Rhox War Monk, for instance, the phrase "I guess this time <puts on shades> lightning DID strike twice."
It's not bad I guess, but I don't get why so many Grixis lists run it over Red Sun's Zenith. Seven Mana is painful, and Cruel Ultimatum could get away with it because it's seven mana for what amounts to Small Pox, if it turned Friendly Fire off, scored Crits, and did AOE damage. +7 CA. Plus. Seven.
Against aggressive decks, the fact that you gain the effect immediately is a huge deal. With Wurmcoil Engine, they still get a turn to do lethal or play around it, like burning their own creatures to prevent the lifelink from triggering.
Against aggressive decks, their game plan is to kill you before you amass 7 mana. I'd rather have an additional removal spell or early blocker against aggro.
Not only does it work well with the new Chandra's second ability, it works well with Sorin's second ability. Both are instant wins. So as mentioned, if you're playing either of these planeswalkers, or even just one in a control deck capable of getting seven mana why not include one.
I don't think I buy the whole "if you make to turn blah blah blah and need this card you've already lost" argument; control likes the longer game and if you've taken some hits from the other player I see no problem with firing this spell off. You make it a bit further in the game and you put the other player in a bad spot with being able to one shot (or close to) them with your finishers. Gaining life against the aggro player is a good way to last a bit longer but throwing 10 damage at them on top of it makes it your game. Is it super awesome and belongs in every deck that can support BBB? I don't think so but but every single argument bought up in the OP could be used against Cruel Ultimatum and it was still heavily played. Big spells do big things like win games I guess.
It kind of lines up with Sorin's - ability. Set opponent to 10 life, cast this next turn and win.
Also if your opponent has counters after 6 turns still, then you obviously did nothing for 6 turns, and your opponent doesn't know how to turn a creature sideways.
people like expensive casting cards that do big things. Look at Emrakul, he's a timewalk on a huge stick! He also see's almost no play.
I think im the one who compared it too cruel ultimatum, i actually have been testing this card alot, and i am in love with it. I haven't lost to aggro besided 2 out of 4 games against tempered steel, but once i put slagstorm sb and 3 iok md i've been the slightly advantaged in that MU. The other thing is, UW and UB control won't expect it, so they really aren't going to save a counter for it G1, my list has proven really powerful so far. This card has some real power, and it is playable, im going to continue to improve this deck until hey cycle out.
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I think im the one who compared it too cruel ultimatum, i actually have been testing this card alot, and i am in love with it. I haven't lost to aggro besided 2 out of 4 games against tempered steel, but once i put slagstorm sb and 3 iok md i've been the slightly advantaged in that MU. The other thing is, UW and UB control won't expect it, so they really aren't going to save a counter for it G1, my list has proven really powerful so far. This card has some real power, and it is playable, im going to continue to improve this deck until hey cycle out.
If you're playing against control players who don't "save counters" just because they don't expect you to be playing a spell worth countering, then I really need to play magic where you play magic.
It kind of lines up with Sorin's - ability. Set opponent to 10 life, cast this next turn and win.
My son has been talking all about this since he got a SV during a sealed and then a Sorin out of the box we split. It has synergy but you have to kinda have it as a backup plan that can't be the biggest focus.
If you're playing against control players who don't "save counters" just because they don't expect you to be playing a spell worth countering, then I really need to play magic where you play magic.
My deck is built to beat control, i don't let them hold back, i rip apart there hand while countering there spells, killing there creatures and manlands. just because i run 2 cards in my deck doesn't mean it makes the deck only revolve around tht and have no way of dealing with any control deck, gosh you have to learn to not be so thick skulled, think a little bit before you post, im not 56 lands.dec..........
And anyways, right now i don't have cards irl i play on Magic League against T1 decks and better players than your FNM champs...
My deck is built to beat control, i don't let them hold back, i rip apart there hand while countering there spells, killing there creatures and manlands. just because i run 2 cards in my deck doesn't mean it makes the deck only revolve around tht and have no way of dealing with any control deck, gosh you have to learn to not be so thick skulled, think a little bit before you post, im not 56 lands.dec..........
And anyways, right now i don't have cards irl i play on Magic League against T1 decks and better players than your FNM champs...
Wow buddy you really need to calm down, I'm aware that you're using a control deck, but guess what, if they're playing a control deck then they plan on doing things that interact with you as well, you can't always plan on having the game locked down well enough for a sorin's vengeance the finish the game.
306.7. If noncombat damage would be dealt to a player by a source controlled by an opponent, that opponent may have that source deal that damage to a planeswalker the first player controls instead. This is a redirection effect (see rule 614.9) and is subject to the normal rules for ordering replacement effects (see rule 616). The opponent chooses whether to redirect the damage as the redirection effect is applied.
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Call me crazy, but I think if this card has a home in any deck, it's an aggressive deck, like vamps. This card is best played on turn 7 to kill someone, but to do that he's gotta be at 10 or less at that point. Control decks like MBC only really start to do damage at that point.
Vamps on the other hand deal damage fast. If anything, a flaw in the deck is that it may run out of gas if it doesn't get the job done quickly, so Sorin's Vengeance might be a great 1-of in this deck.
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I get that it is a powerful effect but in the long run you aren't really gaining all that much. Seven mana is quite a bit to commit to one card in general. By the time you can cast it against Aggro you should have either taken control of the game or you're already dead, against Control you aren't going to get it through a counter spell past turn 6, and against Combo you are essentially in the same boat as with Aggro.
I feel like there are just much better choices out there for ending a game in Black. I am intrigued though because it does seem to be showing up a fair amount and I'm a currently enjoying playing with Black cards. Can someone please explain the appeal to me? I would like to see the tech to this card if it exists. Thanks in advance.
tl;dr - It's an unexpected win.
UBR - Grixis Control
UB - Faeries
G - Eldrazi
U - Surge Node Control
RU - Dragonstorm
EDH: G - Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
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Against aggressive decks, their game plan is to kill you before you amass 7 mana. I'd rather have an additional removal spell or early blocker against aggro.
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It probably doesn't have much of a place outside of casual-ish decks, but it is hilarious and has awesome art.
And again corpT took what i wanted to say and put it to words.
You ran straight into that if you're at 7 mana and still don't know what deck the other player has
Also if your opponent has counters after 6 turns still, then you obviously did nothing for 6 turns, and your opponent doesn't know how to turn a creature sideways.
people like expensive casting cards that do big things. Look at Emrakul, he's a timewalk on a huge stick! He also see's almost no play.
WBG Karador GBW
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RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
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UBRGWControlled from every angle WGRBU
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/blog.php?b=5886
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Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
If you're playing against control players who don't "save counters" just because they don't expect you to be playing a spell worth countering, then I really need to play magic where you play magic.
My son has been talking all about this since he got a SV during a sealed and then a Sorin out of the box we split. It has synergy but you have to kinda have it as a backup plan that can't be the biggest focus.
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My deck is built to beat control, i don't let them hold back, i rip apart there hand while countering there spells, killing there creatures and manlands. just because i run 2 cards in my deck doesn't mean it makes the deck only revolve around tht and have no way of dealing with any control deck, gosh you have to learn to not be so thick skulled, think a little bit before you post, im not 56 lands.dec..........
And anyways, right now i don't have cards irl i play on Magic League against T1 decks and better players than your FNM champs...
UBRGWControlled from every angle WGRBU
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/blog.php?b=5886
Wow buddy you really need to calm down, I'm aware that you're using a control deck, but guess what, if they're playing a control deck then they plan on doing things that interact with you as well, you can't always plan on having the game locked down well enough for a sorin's vengeance the finish the game.
He didn't. Legal move is legal.
The other day, playing on MWS, I got hit with a T5 Vengeance followed by a T6 Vengeance. CLASSIC
Vamps on the other hand deal damage fast. If anything, a flaw in the deck is that it may run out of gas if it doesn't get the job done quickly, so Sorin's Vengeance might be a great 1-of in this deck.