I believe the Standard forum is the place for this, but I'm not 100% sure. Since this is mostly a Standard issue, and new competative players almost always start in Standard, I'm posting here.
Here's the situation:
I'm teaching my wife how to play Magic. I shouldn't put it that way, because she has played Magic for the last 5 years. Sure, she knew the basic rules and could get through an M11 draft or play a mindless aggro deck already. But right now, I'm really trying to get her to understand the minute interactions of advanced level Magic.
A big problem I've ran into is the planeswalker issue. In my experience, it has been really hard to explain the way they change the game. Of course she understands that if left unchecked, any planeswalker will win the game.
However, we keep running into problems with things like; When it's important to attack the planeswalker vs. attack the opponent. How to get the most out of your cards when facing a planeswalker.
This seems kind of esoteric -- but the general rule is that if you opponent has an unchecked planeswalker, you're probably going to lose at some point. However, if you're playing monored and your opponent is at 5, you probably don't want to attack jace at that point.
It really varies based on what you're playing with/against. If she's pretty good at aggro decks, maybe just have her continue in the vein.
Well, aggro decks is what she plays. Right now she's playing standard Elves.
Since we use MWS to playtest, I'm playing any deck in the format against her.
Some planeswalkers are blatantly obvious.. Jace is an auto-attack for her. As is Gideon because it actually makes her attack.
Problems we run into are things like Garruk. After all, Garruk doesn't exactly scream "I'm going to win the game!" if he comes down and I don't have anything but a Lotus Cobra on the board... I guess this one just comes down to experience. If I get to untap with Cobra and Garruk, she's going to learn not to let that happen again when Inferno Titan hits the board.
Answered my own question.
Still, this issue seems like it might have further discussion...
You can't write a book on this. Its too dependant on the situation and what deck she is playing. At some point, she will have to think on her own.
It's usually right to attack planeswalkers. Which one? Depends. Is Gideon at 2? Is Venser on the verge of being ultimate? Can you kill Jace with a single blow?
I believe the Standard forum is the place for this, but I'm not 100% sure. Since this is mostly a Standard issue, and new competative players almost always start in Standard, I'm posting here.
Here's the situation:
I'm teaching my wife how to play Magic. I shouldn't put it that way, because she has played Magic for the last 5 years. Sure, she knew the basic rules and could get through an M11 draft or play a mindless aggro deck already. But right now, I'm really trying to get her to understand the minute interactions of advanced level Magic.
A big problem I've ran into is the planeswalker issue. In my experience, it has been really hard to explain the way they change the game. Of course she understands that if left unchecked, any planeswalker will win the game.
However, we keep running into problems with things like; When it's important to attack the planeswalker vs. attack the opponent. How to get the most out of your cards when facing a planeswalker.
Anybody got any ideas for me?
you never want to give up a chance to kill a planeswalker. It'll give them too much advantage.
I think the simplest way to look at it is that a planeswalker is going to let your opponent do something "for free" every single turn. Obviously in a game with resource management like Magic, doing anything for free is very powerful.
Now, not only do you have to worry about the extra free thing your opponent is getting every turn, but also if you leave it unchecked then in a couple of turns your opponent is going to get to do a really big free thing that will probably win them the game.
So for this simple reason it's generally a good idea to kill any planeswalker as soon as you can. Unless of course you think you have enough to win the game in the next turn and you don't think they can stop you.
That is pretty poor advice.
There are definitely many situations where players are better off just attacking the other player or not attack at all.
can you name these situations ? If you can't get rid of a PW you will lose to it. If you can swing for the kill then clearly there's no point in attacking the planeswalker.
can you name these situations ? If you can't get rid of a PW you will lose to it. If you can swing for the kill then clearly there's no point in attacking the planeswalker.
I have won games where my opponent should have been attacking me with Faerie tokens instead of going after my Ajani Vengeants and Elspeths in some silly deck I built. In general if you are the aggro and your opponent has a low enough life total it's better to ignore the PW and go to his dome. It's faster some times.
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That was pretty interesting. But dropping a warship on me is cheating. Take it back!
The best thing you can do to teach her is to have her play decks that utilize PW's. This will teach her (hopefully) when to play a PW, and how to use it effectively. This would then hopefully teach her as the opponent, when she should give the PW due attention, or ignore it.
Obviously, experience will also help. If she plays the same 1 or 2 decks enough, she will learn the decks capabilities and limits of those aggro decks, and know when she can afford to target a PW verse the player.
I think just with everything, you have to determine your own solution given the situation. Lets take the Garruk example. If you have 5 untapped creatures that can attack and you drop Garruk and go to 4, Garruk is going to need to die or your wife on the other end is going to lose to an Overrun. However, lets say she has at least some decent board position and you have nothing but a ton of lands and you drop Garruk. Is Garruk going to really do anything when you have no creatures and you're staring down a field of creatures? In that case it sounds like it is right to just ignore Garruk and keep attacking the player.
Most planeswalkers are made that if ignored they will become pretty volatile, but the situation might not call for it (as given above.) Just with every tough magic situation, look at the pro's and con's of what could happen if it gets to live to the next turn and determine if it's right. There are no absolutes in how you must play magic, and the best magic players are the ones that realize this and think outside the box.
Garruk is one of the easier ones to decide, I think. His abilities are pretty straightforward. If you don't kill him, they'll get lots of 3/3 beasts at the least. Will those beasts become an issue?
As to being concerned about the untap 2 lands, that is totally situational depending on how much land they have out, and what threats you know are in the deck. If the player is at 3-4 lands(sometimes even 5) you definitely would want to kill garruk. You really just have to know what your long-term plan is, and how the planeswalker interferes, Garruk either makes beasts or helps drop bombs usually. The -4 is obviously a finisher and should be easy to know if that has to be avoided.
get all planeswalkers, make a big fire spot and burn them all.
really, I would be happy, and wouldn't mind burning my own planeswalkers.
elves is supposed to kill fast no?
so she should focus on killing just the walkers that slows her or create things bigger than elves.
example:
garruk allows ramping into big creatures, he is a target.
Jace can bounce, and draw extra cards. for control decks running jace, drawing exra cards is like gaining an extra turn, so, if you kill the jace, imagine this as making your enemy lose one urn.
jace beleren, chandra naalar, liliana vess, ajana, they are only dangerous when close to the ultimate, so, don't bother, they are balanced walkers and are not going to bring a lot of problems.
gideon... seriously, kill this c**k s***er before he dances and kill your pets and attacks for 6/6 equiped with a damn sword with protection from green.
koth... seriouly... kill him now!
venser... only when close to ultimate, but remember they have day of judgment, so, dont be too permissive with venser, he has one of the most powerful ultimates.
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I vote for the removal of mythic rarity, primeval titan and Jace, the mindsculptor.
I have won games where my opponent should have been attacking me with Faerie tokens instead of going after my Ajani Vengeants and Elspeths in some silly deck I built. In general if you are the aggro and your opponent has a low enough life total it's better to ignore the PW and go to his dome. It's faster some times.
Smells like troll. A Lightning Helix every turn is not something you can race with Faerie Tokens.
You can only lightning helix sustainably every 3 turns. +1, +1, -2, ad infinitum
faeries could put a 3 turn clock w/ scions + mistbinds
That's true. Then again, if that were the board position, how much could you spend attacking a planeswalker?
A token, a Scion and a Mistbind is 8 power on the board. If you can kill 2 planeswalkers with that (and not the player), I'm pretty sure you should kill the planeswalkers.
Shels at the GP won by avoiding attacking Jace and just went straight for the player. You dont necessarily need to always attack them. You have to be mindful of them, and their abilities interacting with card advantage and the field. its a tough thing to teach/learn
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Modern:
Affinity
EDH:
Rhys (Tokens)
Karrthus (Dragons)
Bruna (Auras OP)
That's true. Then again, if that were the board position, how much could you spend attacking a planeswalker?
A token, a Scion and a Mistbind is 8 power on the board. If you can kill 2 planeswalkers with that (and not the player), I'm pretty sure you should kill the planeswalkers.
The whole situation still sounds fishy to me.
True. Thing is, not attacking the planeswalker would give them a turn to play/draw a sweeper.
Of course, that's a non problem if you say, have a Bitterblossom, or Mistbinded a Mistbind Clique.
There's plenty of nuances to Pwalkers. Only answer is experience and ability to comprehend deck lists and read several plays deep.
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Here's the situation:
I'm teaching my wife how to play Magic. I shouldn't put it that way, because she has played Magic for the last 5 years. Sure, she knew the basic rules and could get through an M11 draft or play a mindless aggro deck already. But right now, I'm really trying to get her to understand the minute interactions of advanced level Magic.
A big problem I've ran into is the planeswalker issue. In my experience, it has been really hard to explain the way they change the game. Of course she understands that if left unchecked, any planeswalker will win the game.
However, we keep running into problems with things like; When it's important to attack the planeswalker vs. attack the opponent. How to get the most out of your cards when facing a planeswalker.
Anybody got any ideas for me?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=7718699&postcount=248
It really varies based on what you're playing with/against. If she's pretty good at aggro decks, maybe just have her continue in the vein.
*DCI Rules Advisor*
Since we use MWS to playtest, I'm playing any deck in the format against her.
Some planeswalkers are blatantly obvious.. Jace is an auto-attack for her. As is Gideon because it actually makes her attack.
Problems we run into are things like Garruk. After all, Garruk doesn't exactly scream "I'm going to win the game!" if he comes down and I don't have anything but a Lotus Cobra on the board... I guess this one just comes down to experience. If I get to untap with Cobra and Garruk, she's going to learn not to let that happen again when Inferno Titan hits the board.
Answered my own question.
Still, this issue seems like it might have further discussion...
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=7718699&postcount=248
It's usually right to attack planeswalkers. Which one? Depends. Is Gideon at 2? Is Venser on the verge of being ultimate? Can you kill Jace with a single blow?
you never want to give up a chance to kill a planeswalker. It'll give them too much advantage.
Now, not only do you have to worry about the extra free thing your opponent is getting every turn, but also if you leave it unchecked then in a couple of turns your opponent is going to get to do a really big free thing that will probably win them the game.
So for this simple reason it's generally a good idea to kill any planeswalker as soon as you can. Unless of course you think you have enough to win the game in the next turn and you don't think they can stop you.
That is pretty poor advice.
There are definitely many situations where players are better off just attacking the other player or not attack at all.
Not really trading atm
BRVamps
can you name these situations ? If you can't get rid of a PW you will lose to it. If you can swing for the kill then clearly there's no point in attacking the planeswalker.
I have won games where my opponent should have been attacking me with Faerie tokens instead of going after my Ajani Vengeants and Elspeths in some silly deck I built. In general if you are the aggro and your opponent has a low enough life total it's better to ignore the PW and go to his dome. It's faster some times.
Obviously, experience will also help. If she plays the same 1 or 2 decks enough, she will learn the decks capabilities and limits of those aggro decks, and know when she can afford to target a PW verse the player.
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
Most planeswalkers are made that if ignored they will become pretty volatile, but the situation might not call for it (as given above.) Just with every tough magic situation, look at the pro's and con's of what could happen if it gets to live to the next turn and determine if it's right. There are no absolutes in how you must play magic, and the best magic players are the ones that realize this and think outside the box.
As to being concerned about the untap 2 lands, that is totally situational depending on how much land they have out, and what threats you know are in the deck. If the player is at 3-4 lands(sometimes even 5) you definitely would want to kill garruk. You really just have to know what your long-term plan is, and how the planeswalker interferes, Garruk either makes beasts or helps drop bombs usually. The -4 is obviously a finisher and should be easy to know if that has to be avoided.
get all planeswalkers, make a big fire spot and burn them all.
really, I would be happy, and wouldn't mind burning my own planeswalkers.
elves is supposed to kill fast no?
so she should focus on killing just the walkers that slows her or create things bigger than elves.
example:
garruk allows ramping into big creatures, he is a target.
Jace can bounce, and draw extra cards. for control decks running jace, drawing exra cards is like gaining an extra turn, so, if you kill the jace, imagine this as making your enemy lose one urn.
jace beleren, chandra naalar, liliana vess, ajana, they are only dangerous when close to the ultimate, so, don't bother, they are balanced walkers and are not going to bring a lot of problems.
gideon... seriously, kill this c**k s***er before he dances and kill your pets and attacks for 6/6 equiped with a damn sword with protection from green.
koth... seriouly... kill him now!
venser... only when close to ultimate, but remember they have day of judgment, so, dont be too permissive with venser, he has one of the most powerful ultimates.
Favorite cards = goblin welder, smokestack, chronatog, ,form of the dragon.
60% spike - 30% johny - 10% timmy
Smells like troll. A Lightning Helix every turn is not something you can race with Faerie Tokens.
You can only lightning helix sustainably every 3 turns. +1, +1, -2, ad infinitum
faeries could put a 3 turn clock w/ scions + mistbinds
That's true. Then again, if that were the board position, how much could you spend attacking a planeswalker?
A token, a Scion and a Mistbind is 8 power on the board. If you can kill 2 planeswalkers with that (and not the player), I'm pretty sure you should kill the planeswalkers.
The whole situation still sounds fishy to me.
Modern:
Affinity
EDH:
Rhys (Tokens)
Karrthus (Dragons)
Bruna (Auras OP)
True. Thing is, not attacking the planeswalker would give them a turn to play/draw a sweeper.
Of course, that's a non problem if you say, have a Bitterblossom, or Mistbinded a Mistbind Clique.
There's plenty of nuances to Pwalkers. Only answer is experience and ability to comprehend deck lists and read several plays deep.