alright kiln fiend advocates I have a question for all of you:
What will you do when you side in the fiend and you never draw it. Now how good is your transformation? And if you are planning to side it in for what? I consider this option of transformation as a do or do not, not some half-ass effort. Sure the synergy is there, but on turn 3 at best you will be dealing what 7 dmg/per turn at best.
Er, if you don't draw kiln fiend despite all of your draw spells you ideally combo out with ascension. Not a huge difference from how it works now except that you have an early damage out.
alright kiln fiend advocates I have a question for all of you:
What will you do when you side in the fiend and you never draw it. Now how good is your transformation? And if you are planning to side it in for what? I consider this option of transformation as a do or do not, not some half-ass effort. Sure the synergy is there, but on turn 3 at best you will be dealing what 7 dmg/per turn at best.
Also, should you lose game 1, and transform game 2 winning, you get to play massive mind games with your opponent.
Echo mage? I am appalled you even mentioned this crap. This deck is not a mana vault. Finally, goblins is not a ☺☺☺☺ deck vs anything slow.
Pretty much fine because I didn't gut my deck during sideboard.
Pretty much fine because I didn't gut my deck during sideboard.
Yeah, you're basically just putting in a couple cards that they've (hopefully) boarded out all of their answers to. We're not talking about dedicating 15 cards to this, just a maximum of 6 (Frost Titan + Kiln Fiend).
ok I see where this is. You are basically playing kiln fiend to get an extra 4+ dmg early game. I see. My fault for not understanding that kiln fiend is being played as a pseudo-burn spell. good call, ill try it.
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mario91234 on MTGO and Twitch
ok I see where this is. You are basically playing kiln fiend to get an extra 4+ dmg early game. I see. My fault for not understanding that kiln fiend is being played as a pseudo-burn spell. good call, ill try it.
I'm not entirely sure its worth it, but yeah, the main idea is that you can put down a kiln fiend, do things you were already going to do and add a bunch of damage so that even if they take out your ascensions you can still kill them with a couple bolts.
Pretty much fine because I didn't gut my deck during sideboard.
Also, what do you do when you don't draw pyro ascension? I mean the deck is still built around a card either way right? So I just fail to see how that argument is valid, the deck has tons of draw spells, when you don't draw pyro you dig for pyro, when you don't draw fiend you... dig for fiend? seems fine.
Burn can kill early threats until ascension is activated, at which point LD becomes brutal and possibly more competitive than the normal racing for burn spells to finish.
The issue there is that the kill is much slower than hitting with the bolts and burst lightnings back with call to mind. The LD spells are a lot more expensive and thus will take a lot longer to get to the kill. Plus there is a strong possibility that you'll end up destroying all of their lands before you kill them which makes for dead cards.
The liquid metal coating shatter thing is a cute combo but really not that useful in general. The best bet is doubling up things like cheap burn spells so that you can easily play multiple in one turn, and kick your burst lightning if need be.
LD works wonders against Valukut obviously, which has become a very nice asset. I would consider side-boarding in the "cute-combo" against decks that have other potential targets for shatter, or when on the play against decks that could potentially be mana screwed. Spreading seas could be in there too.
It would work less like the normal ascension deck and more like LD control. I think it is at least worth some play testing.
As for destroying all their lands, making your spells dead draws.. I would consider that a good thing
It's not a good thing if the way you win is through those now dead spells. Also this deck is pretty strong against the ramp decks anyway since they can't interact with the ascension deck at all letting us set the combo off and win in short order without worrying game 1 about them bouncing or removing the ascension.
And the shatter deal really isn't needed against most any deck, the deck is at it's most efficient when it's powering the ascension up by filling our hand up, so that when the ascension is turned on we can drop bolts and win. The land destruction strategy just slows everything way down, as dose the liquid metal coating idea.
I wonder if Regress could be played to tie into the land denial strategy? I'd typically consider it an overcosted card but when you can bounce 2 lands to their hand with an active Ascension it doesn't seem terrible.
Have been testing it for a while and it gives great blocking options vs aggro whilst also providing bodies to feed to MP.
What do you remove for it? How many do you play? Seems interesting enough, but I would have trouble deciding what to remove. Maybe 1x Garruk (if you run 3x) I personally want to dig through my deck (See Beyond),Jace, the Mind Sculptor and also have the option to put something back into it from my hand if I draw a creature.
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The sideboard doesn't need to become that transformational. I think all this talk about going Goblins, or the Kiln Fiend switcheroo, is too degenerate and narrow. Pyromancer Ascension is a hair away from another competitive archetype - UR Control. A simple sideboard change to cards like Jace (either version), Sphinx/Frost, and more counter magic instantly makes this deck an entirely new monster post board.
Control decks MUST sideboard out removal in favor of more counter magic/Pyro hate. That really don't have a choice if they plan on winning. That gives us a variety of already hard to remove creatures to side in. I personally feel Sphinx is the best option. Frost Titan is incredible right now, but the reality is that a good UW or UB player will likely leave in at least a couple Doomblades/Condemns, anticipating a creature switch post board. Sphinx will dodge any spot removal (they'll certainly side out their wrath effects) and it has slightly better evasion than Frost.
the steady progress is cute, and I could not find a better card to use instead of the 4th foresee, as I hate seeing more than 2 4cmc spells per game and a opening grip with 2 or more is an automull.
kiln fiend is a neat idea, but IMO that is a different deck. Maybe for some UR counter-slivers style with goblin guides, and some other dudes.
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Kiln fiend isnt needed anymore as frost titan is just much better in the meta, it also dies to Celestial Purge which gets sided vs ascention anyways. Calcite Snapper is another choice for a transformational SB. Its better than fiend in the matchups you bring it in. (Control)
This deck is a lot differant than the Pyromancer deck of old, you dont try to just combo out and in on a specific turn, it plays much more like a control deck with an insane card advantage engine than a combo deck.
2 Call to mind is all you need, 3 is too much, once you get to the point where you want to be call to minding you will have plenty of library manipulation.
This could be a real contender this standard season, what hate cards are the hardest to play around/through? War priest of thune is easy enough to beat (into the roil'ing PA in responce or just playing multiple ascentions) White leyline is easy enough to beat with into the roil. Memoricide seems like it could hurt a lot if it comes down before ascention or if its played in a deck that can bounce/destroy the ascention.
I SB frost titan (2 of) in every single matchup and its actually how I win most of my game2/3's. Ive been wondering if it'd be good maindeck or if that would just make it worse (people leave in removal).
personally, i'd rather run a 3rd call to mind than steady progress. they do virtually the same thing when ascension has 1 counter on it, and post ascension call is SO so much stronger.
also, i can see a reason to run frost titan, but sphinx of jwar isle really doesn't do much seeing as we're not counting on our men being targeted in the matches we bring them in. sphinx ends up being a vanilla 5/5 flier for 6 which is pretty mediocre. titan, or even wurmcoil are kind of where it's at in that regard
the one advantage fiend has over those 2 is that he's quite strong against ramp decks. our clock, preboard, is quite slow, and i find if the ramp player sticks around they often have inevitability thanks to valakuut. fiend can tear through walls pretty easily. i just find, against ramp, thanks to eldrazi and molten pinnacle, we are the beatdown. frost titan is often too little too late. the big problem i have with the 'control' back up plan is, we're very mana light. 6 mana just is not that easy for this deck...
personally, i'd rather run a 3rd call to mind than steady progress. they do virtually the same thing when ascension has 1 counter on it, and post ascension call is SO so much stronger.
also, i can see a reason to run frost titan, but sphinx of jwar isle really doesn't do much seeing as we're not counting on our men being targeted in the matches we bring them in. sphinx ends up being a vanilla 5/5 flier for 6 which is pretty mediocre. titan, or even wurmcoil are kind of where it's at in that regard
the one advantage fiend has over those 2 is that he's quite strong against ramp decks. our clock, preboard, is quite slow, and i find if the ramp player sticks around they often have inevitability thanks to valakuut. fiend can tear through walls pretty easily. i just find, against ramp, thanks to eldrazi and molten pinnacle, we are the beatdown. frost titan is often too little too late. the big problem i have with the 'control' back up plan is, we're very mana light. 6 mana just is not that easy for this deck...
with 3 call to mind you may end up punting a match do to drawing them early before they do any thing. 2 in your opening grip is probably a mull again, and I am not wanting to mull with a deck that lives off of 1 for 1s until the P A is active.
what are the good and bad matchups for this deck?
also what about mindbreak trap? Other blue based decks have been using it and getting decent returns from it. It won't make md, but sb as a 2 of it could be a really good answer for emrakul in games 2 and 3.
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Kiln fiend isnt needed anymore as frost titan is just much better in the meta, it also dies to Celestial Purge which gets sided vs ascention anyways. Calcite Snapper is another choice for a transformational SB. Its better than fiend in the matchups you bring it in. (Control)
This deck is a lot differant than the Pyromancer deck of old, you dont try to just combo out and in on a specific turn, it plays much more like a control deck with an insane card advantage engine than a combo deck.
2 Call to mind is all you need, 3 is too much, once you get to the point where you want to be call to minding you will have plenty of library manipulation.
This could be a real contender this standard season, what hate cards are the hardest to play around/through? War priest of thune is easy enough to beat (into the roil'ing PA in responce or just playing multiple ascentions) White leyline is easy enough to beat with into the roil. Memoricide seems like it could hurt a lot if it comes down before ascention or if its played in a deck that can bounce/destroy the ascention.
I SB frost titan (2 of) in every single matchup and its actually how I win most of my game2/3's. Ive been wondering if it'd be good maindeck or if that would just make it worse (people leave in removal).
2 Call to mind is all you need, 3 is too much, once you get to the point where you want to be call to minding you will have plenty of library manipulation.
This could be a real contender this standard season, what hate cards are the hardest to play around/through? War priest of thune is easy enough to beat (into the roil'ing PA in responce or just playing multiple ascentions) White leyline is easy enough to beat with into the roil. Memoricide seems like it could hurt a lot if it comes down before ascention or if its played in a deck that can bounce/destroy the ascention.
I SB frost titan (2 of) in every single matchup and its actually how I win most of my game2/3's. Ive been wondering if it'd be good maindeck or if that would just make it worse (people leave in removal).
-orvn
How many lands are you running? The build I'm running now is very similar to slipknot72102's above, but +1 Deprive instead of Steady Progress and -1 Land for +1 (baby) Jace. Normally 22 lands seems to work pretty well but I'm considering bumping it upto 23 as the odd time it has been a problem. I'm also considering running the Frost Titans in the side which is why I asked about the land count.
Are there any situations/matchups where you're boarding out the Ascension all together and just playing it as a regular UR Control? Lots of B and W decks in my meta so I'm facing lots of Inquisition of Kozileks, Duress', Memoricides, Vampire Hexmage (not the worst but still annoying when it targets Ascension), and then Celestial Purge and Revoke Existence.
Obviously the idea of siding out your presumed win-condition entirely is appealing as I imagine you'll steal a lot of free wins or at least opportunities when they board out threat density for hate, or make unknowing mistakes with Memoricide etc. but at the same time (without having tested the transformative options) it seems like the Ascension is where the deck gets the bulk of its power and that playing it as a flat out UR control deck would sacrifice a lot of utility compared to the UW and UB counterparts. Obviously blind-siding the opponent with a switch can shore up the difference but that may not always work. Curious on more detailed information regarding this strategy.
People, i was thinking about a card that could fix our worst weakness: tokens diening before you could use Mass Polymorph and / or that our Awekening Zone be destroyed to soon. This card is Cobra Trap, it have two advantages: First to all, is instant, then you could cast it at end of your oponents turn without risking your tokens to sorcery speed removal. Second, if any our noncreature permanents are destroyed you could cast it, giving you a significant edge over your oponent and being ready to cast Mass Polymorph for the win the next turn.
How many lands are you running? The build I'm running now is very similar to slipknot72102's above, but +1 Deprive instead of Steady Progress and -1 Land for +1 (baby) Jace. Normally 22 lands seems to work pretty well but I'm considering bumping it upto 23 as the odd time it has been a problem. I'm also considering running the Frost Titans in the side which is why I asked about the land count.
Are there any situations/matchups where you're boarding out the Ascension all together and just playing it as a regular UR Control? Lots of B and W decks in my meta so I'm facing lots of Inquisition of Kozileks, Duress', Memoricides, Vampire Hexmage (not the worst but still annoying when it targets Ascension), and then Celestial Purge and Revoke Existence.
Obviously the idea of siding out your presumed win-condition entirely is appealing as I imagine you'll steal a lot of free wins or at least opportunities when they board out threat density for hate, or make unknowing mistakes with Memoricide etc. but at the same time (without having tested the transformative options) it seems like the Ascension is where the deck gets the bulk of its power and that playing it as a flat out UR control deck would sacrifice a lot of utility compared to the UW and UB counterparts. Obviously blind-siding the opponent with a switch can shore up the difference but that may not always work. Curious on more detailed information regarding this strategy.
I am most worried about targeted discard. purge and such don't really bother me, because I can wait till turn 4-6 to cast P A. i just wish that we could splash black. Can you imagine double duress lol.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
23 lands is correct for me, I run halimar depths though and I dont really like it much.
I never board out PA but that might actually be a mistake. I like to keep it in because it IS what the deck is trying to do, even when I bring in frost titan I leave in PA.
Steady Progress seems really really really bad, I think another deprive or even negate makes more sense.
I've been testing Pyromancer ascension lately and I'm sold on 73/75 cards. Those last 2 slots are...
2 JtMS
or
2 Jace Beleren
Both have things going for them, jtms can help control creatures, it acts as a much more reliable alternate win condition, and lets you dig deeper at the cost of 1 more colorless mana. While Beleren comes down a turn sooner, can build loyalty (towards win con or just to survive an attack) while still digging you deeper (something jtms cannot do).
I've tested both and I really like both! I somehow cant fathom running 1 of each as the right choice, anyone else have some input on the subject?
Personally I prefer Jace2 in the deck. I like that when i play him I get to dig 3 cards deep right away and craft my hand while setting the top cards. It's almost impossible to get brainstorm locked with this deck with all the draw spells and scry spells and shuffle effects, so realistically you're digging 3 new cards every turn on his ability most of the time.
Also since the deck plays like a control deck most of the time it's pretty easy to protect him and build to ultimate if you need the alternate win, or just to lock their top card from answers while you set off the ascension. All around I think he's just better utility for the deck than the little jace how just draws a card extra a turn and is very very vulnerable.
Er, if you don't draw kiln fiend despite all of your draw spells you ideally combo out with ascension. Not a huge difference from how it works now except that you have an early damage out.
Pretty much fine because I didn't gut my deck during sideboard.
Yeah, you're basically just putting in a couple cards that they've (hopefully) boarded out all of their answers to. We're not talking about dedicating 15 cards to this, just a maximum of 6 (Frost Titan + Kiln Fiend).
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11th GP Louisville.
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mario91234 on MTGO and Twitch
I'm not entirely sure its worth it, but yeah, the main idea is that you can put down a kiln fiend, do things you were already going to do and add a bunch of damage so that even if they take out your ascensions you can still kill them with a couple bolts.
Also, what do you do when you don't draw pyro ascension? I mean the deck is still built around a card either way right? So I just fail to see how that argument is valid, the deck has tons of draw spells, when you don't draw pyro you dig for pyro, when you don't draw fiend you... dig for fiend? seems fine.
The issue there is that the kill is much slower than hitting with the bolts and burst lightnings back with call to mind. The LD spells are a lot more expensive and thus will take a lot longer to get to the kill. Plus there is a strong possibility that you'll end up destroying all of their lands before you kill them which makes for dead cards.
The liquid metal coating shatter thing is a cute combo but really not that useful in general. The best bet is doubling up things like cheap burn spells so that you can easily play multiple in one turn, and kick your burst lightning if need be.
It's not a good thing if the way you win is through those now dead spells. Also this deck is pretty strong against the ramp decks anyway since they can't interact with the ascension deck at all letting us set the combo off and win in short order without worrying game 1 about them bouncing or removing the ascension.
And the shatter deal really isn't needed against most any deck, the deck is at it's most efficient when it's powering the ascension up by filling our hand up, so that when the ascension is turned on we can drop bolts and win. The land destruction strategy just slows everything way down, as dose the liquid metal coating idea.
Maybe just siding them out and siding in like 1 or 2
JTMS and 2 Frost Titans is enough.
Then the deck just becomes U/R control/burn
What do you remove for it? How many do you play? Seems interesting enough, but I would have trouble deciding what to remove. Maybe 1x Garruk (if you run 3x) I personally want to dig through my deck (See Beyond),Jace, the Mind Sculptor and also have the option to put something back into it from my hand if I draw a creature.
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Control decks MUST sideboard out removal in favor of more counter magic/Pyro hate. That really don't have a choice if they plan on winning. That gives us a variety of already hard to remove creatures to side in. I personally feel Sphinx is the best option. Frost Titan is incredible right now, but the reality is that a good UW or UB player will likely leave in at least a couple Doomblades/Condemns, anticipating a creature switch post board. Sphinx will dodge any spot removal (they'll certainly side out their wrath effects) and it has slightly better evasion than Frost.
Anyway, this is my current build:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Spells
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
4 Into the Roil
4 Burst Lightning
3 Call to Mind
4 Forsee
4 Preordain
4 See Beyond
4 Halimar Depths
4 Scalding Tarn
8 Island
7 Mountain
4 Pyroclasm
3 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
4 Spell Pierce
4 Flashfreeze
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2 Call to Mind
2 Deprive
2 Foresee
4 Into the Roil
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
4 Preordain
4 See Beyond
1 Steady Progress
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Halimar Depths
8 Island
7 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arc Trail
3 Flashfreeze
4 Negate
3 Pyroclasm
1 sphinx of jwar isle
the steady progress is cute, and I could not find a better card to use instead of the 4th foresee, as I hate seeing more than 2 4cmc spells per game and a opening grip with 2 or more is an automull.
kiln fiend is a neat idea, but IMO that is a different deck. Maybe for some UR counter-slivers style with goblin guides, and some other dudes.
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Kiln fiend isnt needed anymore as frost titan is just much better in the meta, it also dies to Celestial Purge which gets sided vs ascention anyways. Calcite Snapper is another choice for a transformational SB. Its better than fiend in the matchups you bring it in. (Control)
This deck is a lot differant than the Pyromancer deck of old, you dont try to just combo out and in on a specific turn, it plays much more like a control deck with an insane card advantage engine than a combo deck.
2 Call to mind is all you need, 3 is too much, once you get to the point where you want to be call to minding you will have plenty of library manipulation.
This could be a real contender this standard season, what hate cards are the hardest to play around/through? War priest of thune is easy enough to beat (into the roil'ing PA in responce or just playing multiple ascentions) White leyline is easy enough to beat with into the roil. Memoricide seems like it could hurt a lot if it comes down before ascention or if its played in a deck that can bounce/destroy the ascention.
I SB frost titan (2 of) in every single matchup and its actually how I win most of my game2/3's. Ive been wondering if it'd be good maindeck or if that would just make it worse (people leave in removal).
-orvn
also, i can see a reason to run frost titan, but sphinx of jwar isle really doesn't do much seeing as we're not counting on our men being targeted in the matches we bring them in. sphinx ends up being a vanilla 5/5 flier for 6 which is pretty mediocre. titan, or even wurmcoil are kind of where it's at in that regard
the one advantage fiend has over those 2 is that he's quite strong against ramp decks. our clock, preboard, is quite slow, and i find if the ramp player sticks around they often have inevitability thanks to valakuut. fiend can tear through walls pretty easily. i just find, against ramp, thanks to eldrazi and molten pinnacle, we are the beatdown. frost titan is often too little too late. the big problem i have with the 'control' back up plan is, we're very mana light. 6 mana just is not that easy for this deck...
with 3 call to mind you may end up punting a match do to drawing them early before they do any thing. 2 in your opening grip is probably a mull again, and I am not wanting to mull with a deck that lives off of 1 for 1s until the P A is active.
what are the good and bad matchups for this deck?
also what about mindbreak trap? Other blue based decks have been using it and getting decent returns from it. It won't make md, but sb as a 2 of it could be a really good answer for emrakul in games 2 and 3.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
This.
How many lands are you running? The build I'm running now is very similar to slipknot72102's above, but +1 Deprive instead of Steady Progress and -1 Land for +1 (baby) Jace. Normally 22 lands seems to work pretty well but I'm considering bumping it upto 23 as the odd time it has been a problem. I'm also considering running the Frost Titans in the side which is why I asked about the land count.
Are there any situations/matchups where you're boarding out the Ascension all together and just playing it as a regular UR Control? Lots of B and W decks in my meta so I'm facing lots of Inquisition of Kozileks, Duress', Memoricides, Vampire Hexmage (not the worst but still annoying when it targets Ascension), and then Celestial Purge and Revoke Existence.
Obviously the idea of siding out your presumed win-condition entirely is appealing as I imagine you'll steal a lot of free wins or at least opportunities when they board out threat density for hate, or make unknowing mistakes with Memoricide etc. but at the same time (without having tested the transformative options) it seems like the Ascension is where the deck gets the bulk of its power and that playing it as a flat out UR control deck would sacrifice a lot of utility compared to the UW and UB counterparts. Obviously blind-siding the opponent with a switch can shore up the difference but that may not always work. Curious on more detailed information regarding this strategy.
I am most worried about targeted discard. purge and such don't really bother me, because I can wait till turn 4-6 to cast P A. i just wish that we could splash black. Can you imagine double duress lol.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
I never board out PA but that might actually be a mistake. I like to keep it in because it IS what the deck is trying to do, even when I bring in frost titan I leave in PA.
Steady Progress seems really really really bad, I think another deprive or even negate makes more sense.
-orvn
2 JtMS
or
2 Jace Beleren
Both have things going for them, jtms can help control creatures, it acts as a much more reliable alternate win condition, and lets you dig deeper at the cost of 1 more colorless mana. While Beleren comes down a turn sooner, can build loyalty (towards win con or just to survive an attack) while still digging you deeper (something jtms cannot do).
I've tested both and I really like both! I somehow cant fathom running 1 of each as the right choice, anyone else have some input on the subject?
-orvn
Also since the deck plays like a control deck most of the time it's pretty easy to protect him and build to ultimate if you need the alternate win, or just to lock their top card from answers while you set off the ascension. All around I think he's just better utility for the deck than the little jace how just draws a card extra a turn and is very very vulnerable.
-orvn