there's one thing i;ve learned in my days of magic. if a deck needs a god draw to be considered good, then it;s a BAD deck. A really, really, really bad deck.
One thing I have learned from my days of magic, is that no deck really needs a god draw to win. I was just using that as an example of A god draw. This deck can do its thing faster and more efficiently than the ramp decks, as it kills all in one turn (the "oops, I win" factor).
I imagine a lot of the games go like this against ramp (g2, because g1 is another example of "god drawing")....
Game one, they cracked a fetch turn one with two traps in hand, milled 26, which included all 4 of their valakuts and 3 titans. GG
Game two, this one went pretty textbook, turn two ascension which was active turn 4, he hard casts titan, which i leak, then he summoning traps a titan into play, searches, respond with double trap for 52 with the ascension online, GG
One thing I have learned from my days of magic, is that no deck really needs a god draw to win. I was just using that as an example of A god draw. This deck can do its thing faster and more efficiently than the ramp decks, as it kills all in one turn (the "oops, I win" factor).
I imagine a lot of the games go like this against ramp (g2, because g1 is another example of "god drawing")....
Yeah, don't forget as well, even if you DON'T draw perfectly, i can almost guarantee you have draw in your opening grip. You have 3-4 turns to have SOME sort of protection or ability to have CA by turn 4. Even when i don't draw huge against it, you have a way to gain the draw advantage to the point where you have a very good chance of having answers.
If you get pyro online, it's pretty much game. Any draw is sick, then you find a trap snare and snare for 52 cards, if pyro comes online, they are pretty much dead next turn or the turn after.
If you get pyro online, it's pretty much game. Any draw is sick, then you find a trap snare and snare for 52 cards, if pyro comes online, they are pretty much dead next turn or the turn after.
What happens if they don't have fetches/search? Seems like hardcasting Traps would be way to slow to get a win. With only 4 Bolt and using them to take out creatures early, and only 1 Call To Mind (because you said you played the Flores list), it doesn't look possible that the burn route could be an alternate kill condition.
Essentially removed the mill element and focus more on burn/control. Essentially building a u/r control with ascension.
Which in my testing i don't disagree with, last night i found that against any deck that doesn't search, I'd rather win with burn.
This is the approach I'm taking as well. The Archive Trap version can certainly win out of nowhere but the thing I don't like about that particular deck is that if the pieces don't fall together rather quickly you can get overwhelmed by quite a few decks. With the counter/burn version you just ... counter and burn everything, and without the Archive Trap shenanigans it frees up lots of deck space.
Like Chapin said in his recent podcast, the Pyromancer Ascension deck has inevitability. If you sculpt your hand and have the proper defenses, you will bury any opponent in card advantage.
I also swapped out the Treasure Hunts for Jace Beleran and I'm finding it much better. 2x Foresee is also ridiculous in the deck; one of the best things to cast after you have an active ascension.
I've found the low land count to be slightly troubling in a few test games, but Preordain, See Beyond, and Halimar Depths usually digs me out.
I don't think that the actual win-con is all that important in this deck and it should be determined by what other players can do. Once you actually have the ascension up winning is usually trivial. Every draw spell you have becomes better than Recall and all of your burn can kill anything in the format. Win-cons should be chosen by how well they survive against hate. Currently I think burn is better for this.
I've been playing a bit with Mike's list and to be honest
I don't think its that great. Chapin is right, theres just
way too many dead cards in the deck. Drop the archive
traps and other trap cards and just run straight up UR
burn/control.
I was playing similarly that way pre-rotation as I didn't
feel like investing 40 some dollars in time warps as they'd
be gone in a month and it just seems solid, sure you don't
win out of no where, but you win and it seems more
consistent than trapping them.
On account of getting stomped by a UB control deck, I decided on the usefulness of Jace's ingenuity for my SB. Have not yet met the deck for which this is useful against, but I consider it better than foresee for control purposes. Does anyone else feel the same?
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On account of getting stomped by a UB control deck, I decided on the usefulness of Jace's ingenuity for my SB. Have not yet met the deck for which this is useful against, but I consider it better than foresee for control purposes. Does anyone else feel the same?
Jace's Ingenuity lets you dig 3 down, Forsee lets you dig 6 down. Once you have an ascension up Forsee lets you dig through a ridiculous number of cards to find what you want.
Jace's Ingenuity lets you dig 3 down, Forsee lets you dig 6 down. Once you have an ascension up Forsee lets you dig through a ridiculous number of cards to find what you want.
well when you talk of numbers, of course foresee wins. However, at instant speed and when you are facing a counter war, I'd say the instant speed is worth it.
I think we all need to get it through our heads that ascension is not always up, so talk of use over quality, as in you wont play a foresee turn 4 when facing down RDW or any tier 1 deck. When will you play it? Turn 6/7 when you have the mana, assuming you've hit the drops.
You need that counter mana. Ingenuity lets you play off passivity, forsee makes you passive.
See what I'm getting at?
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Just saw this deck earlier on nashville coverage and had to build it after reading Chapin's article and seeing it in action. Testing so far against U/B control and U/W control as well as some mono black vat stuff has proved effective.
My concern is that much like chapin said, this deck will only really be effective so long as no one is prepared for it, once they start bringing the sb hate it makes this deck less effective. So I'm wondering, what if we do a transformative sb?
once my playtesting partners figured the deck out theyd take out all removal and bring in tons of counter and hate for the ascension, so I was thinking, what if post board once theyve stripped all their removal, we just shift the ascensions into kiln fiends? we already run nothing but instants and sorceries, and if they take all of their removal out suddenly they face a rather swift death.
I haven't given this a ton of thought yet mind, so it might be stupid after i play with it a bit, but I thought I'd throw it out there for everyone to contemplate. I figure it's along the lines of what chapin did with frost titan in the board, except this would be same casting cost, and make the rest of our deck still useful at winning, since the draw spells will power the fiend while giving us nothing but more spells to power the fiend.
just a thought pretty much, loving the deck though, definitely going to make it my alternate deck for the present meta, and I hope it's something that can be developed and not totally hated out.
I don't know that you need to really transform, but you do need to add another win con or two. Frost Titan is good, so are some of the sphinxes and kiln fiend and possibly Chandra's Spitfire.
Just saw this deck earlier on nashville coverage and had to build it after reading Chapin's article and seeing it in action. Testing so far against U/B control and U/W control as well as some mono black vat stuff has proved effective.
My concern is that much like chapin said, this deck will only really be effective so long as no one is prepared for it, once they start bringing the sb hate it makes this deck less effective. So I'm wondering, what if we do a transformative sb?
once my playtesting partners figured the deck out theyd take out all removal and bring in tons of counter and hate for the ascension, so I was thinking, what if post board once theyve stripped all their removal, we just shift the ascensions into kiln fiends? we already run nothing but instants and sorceries, and if they take all of their removal out suddenly they face a rather swift death.
I haven't given this a ton of thought yet mind, so it might be stupid after i play with it a bit, but I thought I'd throw it out there for everyone to contemplate. I figure it's along the lines of what chapin did with frost titan in the board, except this would be same casting cost, and make the rest of our deck still useful at winning, since the draw spells will power the fiend while giving us nothing but more spells to power the fiend.
just a thought pretty much, loving the deck though, definitely going to make it my alternate deck for the present meta, and I hope it's something that can be developed and not totally hated out.
Interesting insight, however I think that basing the deck around 1 card (fiend) is plain stupid. I would look at goblins as a more suitable transformation.
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So that's 33 cards in common.
#10 played +2 Jace TMS + 2 Deprive
#11 played +2 Jace Beleren + 2 Deprive
#14 played +2 Jace Beleren +2 Spell Pierce
A lot of Flashfreezes, Negates and Pierces in the sideboard, and some played finishers, too.
Seems like the new way to go
To add to that.
#10 and #11 had Deprive + Halimar Depths (Now I get it :p)
#14 No Halimar Depths but instead had 4 Spell Pierce (2 MD, 2 SB)
#10 and #11 had Arc Trail SB for specific matchups while #14 had a full set of Pyroclasm SB.
Interesting insight, however I think that basing the deck around 1 card (fiend) is plain stupid. I would look at goblins as a more suitable transformation.
well if you think about it the deck is based around one card as is, granted an enchantment is much much more durable than a creature, but most opponents will side out their removal against us after game 1, which should make the fiend durable.
goblins seems like it could be a suitable transformation as well, but it makes a lot of our blue cards pretty useless, I like the fiend because every spell in the deck is still a loaded gun with him so I think he makes a decent transformation.
I like some of the tech from nashville yesterday too, echo mage especially just seems hilarious to me.
Interesting insight, however I think that basing the deck around 1 card (fiend) is plain stupid. I would look at goblins as a more suitable transformation.
Goblins requires a full transforming sideboard. Kiln Fiend requires only 4 cards from your sideboard and can steal the game from decks like UW or UB that take side out all of their removal once they see that you are playing a creatureless deck. You wouldn't side it in against decks that have a lot of creatures that can block (you side in pyroclasms or whatever for that), but you need to raise your threat density against some decks.
Interesting insight, however I think that basing the deck around 1 card (fiend) is plain stupid. I would look at goblins as a more suitable transformation.
Bringing in lots of awful cards for a plan that'll be worthless G3 doesn't seem all that hot. Not to mention the upside on Kiln Fiend is just miles beyond what any merits Gobs has.
Basically it's fine having a creature plan G2/3, but nobody is going to fully transform and ruin their own deck. Coralhelm Commander, Kiln Fiend, Sphinx, Echo Mage, Frost Titan, etc. Plenty of threats that can end the game without needing to devote a ton of space to them.
alright kiln fiend advocates I have a question for all of you:
What will you do when you side in the fiend and you never draw it. Now how good is your transformation? And if you are planning to side it in for what? I consider this option of transformation as a do or do not, not some half-ass effort. Sure the synergy is there, but on turn 3 at best you will be dealing what 7 dmg/per turn at best.
Also, should you lose game 1, and transform game 2 winning, you get to play massive mind games with your opponent.
Echo mage? I am appalled you even mentioned this crap. This deck is not a mana vault. Finally, goblins is not a ☺☺☺☺ deck vs anything slow.
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One thing I have learned from my days of magic, is that no deck really needs a god draw to win. I was just using that as an example of A god draw. This deck can do its thing faster and more efficiently than the ramp decks, as it kills all in one turn (the "oops, I win" factor).
I imagine a lot of the games go like this against ramp (g2, because g1 is another example of "god drawing")....
Yeah, don't forget as well, even if you DON'T draw perfectly, i can almost guarantee you have draw in your opening grip. You have 3-4 turns to have SOME sort of protection or ability to have CA by turn 4. Even when i don't draw huge against it, you have a way to gain the draw advantage to the point where you have a very good chance of having answers.
If you get pyro online, it's pretty much game. Any draw is sick, then you find a trap snare and snare for 52 cards, if pyro comes online, they are pretty much dead next turn or the turn after.
What happens if they don't have fetches/search? Seems like hardcasting Traps would be way to slow to get a win. With only 4 Bolt and using them to take out creatures early, and only 1 Call To Mind (because you said you played the Flores list), it doesn't look possible that the burn route could be an alternate kill condition.
This is the approach I'm taking as well. The Archive Trap version can certainly win out of nowhere but the thing I don't like about that particular deck is that if the pieces don't fall together rather quickly you can get overwhelmed by quite a few decks. With the counter/burn version you just ... counter and burn everything, and without the Archive Trap shenanigans it frees up lots of deck space.
Like Chapin said in his recent podcast, the Pyromancer Ascension deck has inevitability. If you sculpt your hand and have the proper defenses, you will bury any opponent in card advantage.
I also swapped out the Treasure Hunts for Jace Beleran and I'm finding it much better. 2x Foresee is also ridiculous in the deck; one of the best things to cast after you have an active ascension.
I've found the low land count to be slightly troubling in a few test games, but Preordain, See Beyond, and Halimar Depths usually digs me out.
4 pyromancer ascension
2 pyroclasm
4 lightning bolt
4 burstlightning
4 into the roil
4 mana leak
4 see beyond
4 treasure hunt
4 preordain
4 foresee
4 scalding tarn
4 halimar depths
7 mountain
7 island
SIDE
4 corralhelm commander
4 halimar wavewatch
4 merfolk sovereign
3 grand architect
Won against rampdrazi,metalcraft,RDW,esper control.
Lost valakut
Explainations tomorow
I don't think its that great. Chapin is right, theres just
way too many dead cards in the deck. Drop the archive
traps and other trap cards and just run straight up UR
burn/control.
I was playing similarly that way pre-rotation as I didn't
feel like investing 40 some dollars in time warps as they'd
be gone in a month and it just seems solid, sure you don't
win out of no where, but you win and it seems more
consistent than trapping them.
Everyone here should listen to this:
http://www.mtgcast.com/?p=6422
Edit:
Chapin's deck, taken from the interview above:
2 Halimar depth
4 Scalding Tarn
7 Mountain
10 Island
Spells 37
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Burst Lightning
4 Preordain
4 See Beyond
4 Mana Leak
3 Foresee
3 Into the Roil
3 Jace Beleren
2 Call to Mind
2 Deprive
2 Frost Titan
1 Jace Beleren
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Negate
3 Flashfreeze
2 Pyroclasm
2 Forked Bolt
He's a bit unsure about the sideboard concerning
things like flashfreeze, pyroclasm and forked bolts,
so thats just an example.
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Burst Lightning
3 Staggershock
4 Mana Leak
4 Steady Pregress
4 Jace's Ingenuity
4 Preordain
4 See Beyond
4 Pyromancer Ascension
9 Island
9 Mountain
Is what I would play, but, How do we win?
RRRR mono red aggro
GWGW selesnya aggro
By controlling the game until you get an active
ascension and then burning them out.
Besides that its not standard anymore? :-/:p
Top4 PTQ 8/11/13
11th GP Louisville.
TES
mario91234 on MTGO and Twitch
Wouldnt U/B or Mono Red just be better then?
RRRR mono red aggro
GWGW selesnya aggro
Jace's Ingenuity lets you dig 3 down, Forsee lets you dig 6 down. Once you have an ascension up Forsee lets you dig through a ridiculous number of cards to find what you want.
Maybe, but those decks probably don't
generate the card advantage ascension does.
well when you talk of numbers, of course foresee wins. However, at instant speed and when you are facing a counter war, I'd say the instant speed is worth it.
I think we all need to get it through our heads that ascension is not always up, so talk of use over quality, as in you wont play a foresee turn 4 when facing down RDW or any tier 1 deck. When will you play it? Turn 6/7 when you have the mana, assuming you've hit the drops.
You need that counter mana. Ingenuity lets you play off passivity, forsee makes you passive.
See what I'm getting at?
Top4 PTQ 8/11/13
11th GP Louisville.
TES
mario91234 on MTGO and Twitch
My concern is that much like chapin said, this deck will only really be effective so long as no one is prepared for it, once they start bringing the sb hate it makes this deck less effective. So I'm wondering, what if we do a transformative sb?
once my playtesting partners figured the deck out theyd take out all removal and bring in tons of counter and hate for the ascension, so I was thinking, what if post board once theyve stripped all their removal, we just shift the ascensions into kiln fiends? we already run nothing but instants and sorceries, and if they take all of their removal out suddenly they face a rather swift death.
I haven't given this a ton of thought yet mind, so it might be stupid after i play with it a bit, but I thought I'd throw it out there for everyone to contemplate. I figure it's along the lines of what chapin did with frost titan in the board, except this would be same casting cost, and make the rest of our deck still useful at winning, since the draw spells will power the fiend while giving us nothing but more spells to power the fiend.
just a thought pretty much, loving the deck though, definitely going to make it my alternate deck for the present meta, and I hope it's something that can be developed and not totally hated out.
Interesting insight, however I think that basing the deck around 1 card (fiend) is plain stupid. I would look at goblins as a more suitable transformation.
Top4 PTQ 8/11/13
11th GP Louisville.
TES
mario91234 on MTGO and Twitch
To add to that.
#10 and #11 had Deprive + Halimar Depths (Now I get it :p)
#14 No Halimar Depths but instead had 4 Spell Pierce (2 MD, 2 SB)
#10 and #11 had Arc Trail SB for specific matchups while #14 had a full set of Pyroclasm SB.
Tech Cards:
#10 Echo Mage
#11 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
#14 Frost Titan
Seriously, I am really playing this deck. I've been on the UR Runeflare/Psyche for quite a while now and it has been very hard.
well if you think about it the deck is based around one card as is, granted an enchantment is much much more durable than a creature, but most opponents will side out their removal against us after game 1, which should make the fiend durable.
goblins seems like it could be a suitable transformation as well, but it makes a lot of our blue cards pretty useless, I like the fiend because every spell in the deck is still a loaded gun with him so I think he makes a decent transformation.
I like some of the tech from nashville yesterday too, echo mage especially just seems hilarious to me.
Goblins requires a full transforming sideboard. Kiln Fiend requires only 4 cards from your sideboard and can steal the game from decks like UW or UB that take side out all of their removal once they see that you are playing a creatureless deck. You wouldn't side it in against decks that have a lot of creatures that can block (you side in pyroclasms or whatever for that), but you need to raise your threat density against some decks.
Bringing in lots of awful cards for a plan that'll be worthless G3 doesn't seem all that hot. Not to mention the upside on Kiln Fiend is just miles beyond what any merits Gobs has.
Basically it's fine having a creature plan G2/3, but nobody is going to fully transform and ruin their own deck. Coralhelm Commander, Kiln Fiend, Sphinx, Echo Mage, Frost Titan, etc. Plenty of threats that can end the game without needing to devote a ton of space to them.
What will you do when you side in the fiend and you never draw it. Now how good is your transformation? And if you are planning to side it in for what? I consider this option of transformation as a do or do not, not some half-ass effort. Sure the synergy is there, but on turn 3 at best you will be dealing what 7 dmg/per turn at best.
Also, should you lose game 1, and transform game 2 winning, you get to play massive mind games with your opponent.
Echo mage? I am appalled you even mentioned this crap. This deck is not a mana vault. Finally, goblins is not a ☺☺☺☺ deck vs anything slow.
Top4 PTQ 8/11/13
11th GP Louisville.
TES
mario91234 on MTGO and Twitch