It's worth keeping in mind if Totem Armor or Eldrazi Monument/other Indestructibles are played. Until then, though, Martial Coup and DoJ are just plain better.
i would say that how to use them depends on how many jaces you have left in the deck to try winning with.
by turn 10, if you have:
3 left, just wait for jace unless your hand is out of counters or the opponent is topdecking with an empty board.
2 left, attack until you see a jace, then let jace do his thing.
1 left, try to actively kill them,
this of course assuming you dont have elspeth, if you do.. just kill them, its a three turn clock if you have counter mana up and can just beat them to death with 7/7 colonnades
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Generally, use Colonnade as a last-ditch effort to protect your gameplan. Against most decks, you can't assume that your colonnade is going to survive once you activate it, even if you're only blocking a 3/3. Terminate, Bit Blast, Lightning Bolt can all ruin your day.
For that reason, it's generally safe if they're tapped out, or you don't put them on removal (say, because they would have killed your Wall of Omens or bolted Jace earlier in the game). It's not the right call if you're sitting on 6 mana and you want to Coup next turn, or its your second source of blue mana, or any other situation where you can't afford to have it die.
I treat colonnade as a late-game card that helps fix my mana in the early game. I activate it when I either have to in order to survive, when my opponent can't remove it (no RB up g1, no 1B up g2-3) and I'm not countering/edging anything next turn, or when I have enough mana that I'm willing to trade for removal/card.
A.) Its going to win me the game and they are tapped out, or I know they dont have removal (Say, my BSA has stuck around for a swing), or If i have mana and a counter in hand.
B.) Its late game and I have a lot of mana and dont need it defensively.
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Quote from thundyr »
Jacerator is an aggro deck - it just wins by attacking the library, it doesn't really control the board other than to play a few Fogs
Well they dont have to, but, Of course they are going to pay 2 life to kill your wall.
And he was saying having a wall and a lightmine field causes them to have to pump the leech early if they are attacking with 2 or more guys.
Early? It costs 2WW, there's no such thing as early with that card, sadly~
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Have a helicopter drop you off out front. Light your cigar with a small Indonesian boy holding a black lotus. Then bust out a craw wurm deck with no sleeves. Raw dog shuffle, loose terribly, flip the table, leave in a hovercraft.
Just about none of those decks are played. Vampires and Mono Green are dead. Not many people play Mythic anymore. You can beat Naya with just a Baneslayer most of the time. WW has a hard time beating Knight of the White Orchid unless they draw Student or Steppe Lynx (and Lands).
Plus, I am not saying to completely cut Day of Judgment from the deck, but to simply move it to the sideboard.
The two most popular decks by far are Jund and UW. Day of Jugdment doesn't really do much against either of those two decks. I'd rather have better cards maindeck, and leave the Day of Judgments in the board.
Be careful with making blanket statements. Boss Naya sees more play than UW Control based purely on the fact that the high cost and rarity of UW's cards (Jace's and Baneslayers) works as a bottleneck to many players. While I agree with you that Mono Green and Mythic barely need to be taken into account at this point, you can bet your ass Vamps and WW will be hanging around for a while. A single HOTP can allow any of WW's creatures to run right over KotWO.
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Have a helicopter drop you off out front. Light your cigar with a small Indonesian boy holding a black lotus. Then bust out a craw wurm deck with no sleeves. Raw dog shuffle, loose terribly, flip the table, leave in a hovercraft.
KoTWO and WoO replace themselves and as stated, force misplays by causing overextending. DoJ is still gaining you great card advantage.
And the times you don't get turn 2 Knight, turn 3 Wall with PtE in hand, you still have the option of turn 3 DoJ with Chalice. Control has always been about versatility of options.
Early as in, before attack. Not early as in, early game.
UW: T2 WoO
Jund: T2 Leech
UW: T3 Knight/Chalice/WoD
Jund: Attack into WoO. UW doesn't chump yet and goes to UW:16 J:18. Jund plays Thrinax
UW: T4 Lightmine Field
Now on T4 for Jund, they can either attack with just the leech and pump to do 4 to UW or to kill the wall, depending on if UW blocks. OR, they can attack with both, pump the leech in response to taking 2 from the lightmine field, and get in for 3 with the thrinax (J:16 UW:13). If they BBE into bolt/blightning, it's J:16 UW:10.
Also note that if you had a T3 Knight of the White Orchid, it will now kill either the leech or the thrinax. Also note that if Jund BBEs into anything, that BBE isn't attacking unless they find a pulse to get through. Either way it sets UW up for a T5 Gideon to one-sided wrath them (unless they didn't find the pulse), or at the very least give a fog effect and most likely stay alive.
Even if they do have a pulse, you've successfully made it to T5 while not being in the red, against Jund's best draw. Sure, this is a "best draw" situation for your deck as well, but there's a lot more options for us (it just requires Field and a WoO vs Jund needing all 4 lands with all 3 colors, leech, thrinax, BBE).
And if you throw in a gideon coming down any time before you're dead, Jund goes into top-deck mode to find a pulse or burn, and the rest of their cards are dead.
Depends on the amount of cards in the opponent's hand and what they still have left in their deck. Also what cards could either blow you out or which way you can win with more securely.
All sounds awesome. Can anyone give examples of how they would play certain situations against certain decks? Or how they have played particularly important turns? Thanks!
Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
A good question. I think the weakest part of my game is knowing when to swing with colonnade. I'm certain I missed two games due to not swinging with colonnades when I could.
It is incredibly situational. Just don't forget that they have vigilance, so assuming you're sitting on 6 mana + colonnade then you're still leaving Essence Scatter/Deprive/Negate mana open for their turn.
LSV believes this card is close to a reverse Blightning. I think its at least in the same school of anti-Blightning 'tech' as Grim Discovery, Vengevine, Bloodghast, and Swerve (although Cache is actually IN our colors).
The only real issue I have with it is that, on the play, Jund can pop off a T3 Blightning and rob you of half the value of the card. It would certainly be better if it were 1W, but I suppose R&D hasn't completely lost their minds yet.
"Well, well, if it isn't the most diabolical haters this side of the Mississippi." Alters and Commissions at [URL="noodlesndoodlesalters.tumblr.com/"]Noodles & Doodles Alters[/URL]!
Have a helicopter drop you off out front. Light your cigar with a small Indonesian boy holding a black lotus. Then bust out a craw wurm deck with no sleeves. Raw dog shuffle, loose terribly, flip the table, leave in a hovercraft.
If I have a Baneslayer (or expect one off of a Brainstorm or Depths), I will almost always send Colonnade in to gauge for or eat my opponent's best removal spell. Colonnades make incredibly useful screens for Baneslayer and other threats. Late-game when your opponent is in topdeck mode (or fateseal softlock) is the best time to employ them as actual finishers.
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Have a helicopter drop you off out front. Light your cigar with a small Indonesian boy holding a black lotus. Then bust out a craw wurm deck with no sleeves. Raw dog shuffle, loose terribly, flip the table, leave in a hovercraft.
I think you're confusing anti-blightning and reverse-blightning. Anti-blightning = helps you recover against or deal with a blightning. This card doesn't do that; if they've already cast blightning, you get at most 1 card unless you somehow got them to 18 before casting this.
A reverse blightning is a card that's the opposite of blightning. "Gain 3 life, draw 2 cards".
On the play, this can act as one against Jund:
Jund T2: Leech
UW T3: Cache (22, 20)
Even if Jund pumps leech, you both go to 18 and you get to draw the extra card. That assumes they don't have a lightning bolt or blightning on T3.
On the draw, the only way you can get value out of this card would be with WoO on T2 AND they don't have the bolt/blightning. Any smart Jund player would bolt you.
I think you're confusing anti-blightning and reverse-blightning. Anti-blightning = helps you recover against or deal with a blightning. This card doesn't do that; if they've already cast blightning, you get at most 1 card unless you somehow got them to 18 before casting this.
No, I understand the difference quite well; LSV thinks its close to a reverse Blightning; as I said, I think it might at least be an anti-Blightning since G2 you'll have Firewalkers and such).
Anyway, I don't think it necessarily needs to be built around, though it can't be coupled with Oust. I'm just wondering if it has sideboard applications.
For the record, if Jund wants to throw a bolt at you before the rebound that should be perfectly acceptable, as at that point Cache 1) will at least replace itself, providing you with card advantage, 2) made them use a piece of removal/burn that would be better spent on Jace, 'Speth, KotWO, Gideon, etc. Frankly Blightning on the play is the only card that truly impacts it's performance.
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"Well, well, if it isn't the most diabolical haters this side of the Mississippi." Alters and Commissions at [URL="noodlesndoodlesalters.tumblr.com/"]Noodles & Doodles Alters[/URL]!
Have a helicopter drop you off out front. Light your cigar with a small Indonesian boy holding a black lotus. Then bust out a craw wurm deck with no sleeves. Raw dog shuffle, loose terribly, flip the table, leave in a hovercraft.
Ah, I misunderstood the first time around, I see where you're coming from now. I'm actually interested in testing it only because it can help me get out of the red after I've stabilized. It's terrible mid-game, though, when I'm trying to stabilize and need an answer.
I'd be hard pressed finding a spot in my 75 for it, though.
Do we have any good UWB Control decklists? Cosume the Meek, Inquistion, Liliana all help with control scenario. I am excited to test out Contaminated Land and Spreading Seas. I am gonna try and deliver a decklist to help make Variant black discussion comeback to life.
I'd like to introduce you to someone. His name is Wall of Omens. Say hi, Wall of Omens!
So, Wall of Omens, how do you think you're going to affect standard? What's that, you say? You're going to slot right into an already-established UW Control archetype, and improve the deck's matchup against Jund significantly? Wow, bold words there Wall of Omens.
I'm fairly certain that the closer the list is to Chaplain's the worse wall of omens is. If you're casting it for board presence against jund it's not doing anything valuable since it's just "cycling" while letting them cast their terminates or bituminous blasts.
If you use other creatures which are vulnerable to removal then the wall might let you get a little more value
I've taken it out, I've put it back in. Over and over. I've settled for 3 Main and 1 Side. Some things you simply cannot handle. If you haven't landed a Sphinx or Baneslayer, double dragon will get you. If you haven't landed a Sphinx, Bloodwitch Malikir will uppercut your face for 4, every turn until you head is knocked clean off your shoulders. lol.
It's a necessary evil imo. And if you don't sweep those, then you're going to be hurting even worse when Emakural or some other Eldrazi comes out. I have a few buddies that have been sleaving up some insane Elrdazi-morph/Control and Token decks. Awakening Zone is going to be a nightmare for everyone.
It's cycling for tempo, as they either are casting that removal instead of a threat, or it's chump-blocking and buying you 4 life.
The thing is, UW Control doesn't have a whole lot of T2 plays that really do a whole lot. Accelerate into a T3 DoJ/Jace, or leave mana open to counter something. KotWO is usually a T3 play unless you got a T1 borderpost, and often the correct call is to Chalice on T3 so you have counter mana open.
Having a tempo card as a 2-drop is great. If they waste removal on it, you're up a card and they're down a removal spell that could've been used on BSA. If you chump block a leech with it, you're at equal card advantage and youve effectively "gained" 4 life at the expense of your 2nd turn spell (instead of being at 16 and them at 18, you're at 20 and they're at 18). And if they don't get the leech, you effectively O-Ring'd or Essence Scatter'd their Thrinax or BBE.
The only downside I see is that it turns on their BitBlasts and gives them an extra cascade. That doesn't come until T5, though, and if it's still alive by then, you're still at 0 CA (and they traded their T4 attack and 5 mana for the 2 mana you spent on the wall), especially with 5th turn mana.
Chapin himself tweeted recently about how insane it is to build a UW deck without 4 Wall of Omens.
I am looking into building U/W control... I really liked the original list the best as it seemed to be very defensive and I have found I have the best chances with deffensive decks and mass sweepers.
Keep in mind I play against alot of either jund or monocolored decks so the spreading seas would pbly be sb.
Also, I'm wondering if it would be acceptable to cut out Jace 2.0... I have found him to be an idle threat and doesn't really put any preassure on the board and I want to make room for elspeth and Sphinx of jwar isle.
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T2: UW Lightmine Control UW
by turn 10, if you have:
3 left, just wait for jace unless your hand is out of counters or the opponent is topdecking with an empty board.
2 left, attack until you see a jace, then let jace do his thing.
1 left, try to actively kill them,
this of course assuming you dont have elspeth, if you do.. just kill them, its a three turn clock if you have counter mana up and can just beat them to death with 7/7 colonnades
4-0-0
For that reason, it's generally safe if they're tapped out, or you don't put them on removal (say, because they would have killed your Wall of Omens or bolted Jace earlier in the game). It's not the right call if you're sitting on 6 mana and you want to Coup next turn, or its your second source of blue mana, or any other situation where you can't afford to have it die.
I treat colonnade as a late-game card that helps fix my mana in the early game. I activate it when I either have to in order to survive, when my opponent can't remove it (no RB up g1, no 1B up g2-3) and I'm not countering/edging anything next turn, or when I have enough mana that I'm willing to trade for removal/card.
T2: UW Lightmine Control UW
A.) Its going to win me the game and they are tapped out, or I know they dont have removal (Say, my BSA has stuck around for a swing), or If i have mana and a counter in hand.
B.) Its late game and I have a lot of mana and dont need it defensively.
Early? It costs 2WW, there's no such thing as early with that card, sadly~
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Be careful with making blanket statements. Boss Naya sees more play than UW Control based purely on the fact that the high cost and rarity of UW's cards (Jace's and Baneslayers) works as a bottleneck to many players. While I agree with you that Mono Green and Mythic barely need to be taken into account at this point, you can bet your ass Vamps and WW will be hanging around for a while. A single HOTP can allow any of WW's creatures to run right over KotWO.
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And the times you don't get turn 2 Knight, turn 3 Wall with PtE in hand, you still have the option of turn 3 DoJ with Chalice. Control has always been about versatility of options.
UW: T2 WoO
Jund: T2 Leech
UW: T3 Knight/Chalice/WoD
Jund: Attack into WoO. UW doesn't chump yet and goes to UW:16 J:18. Jund plays Thrinax
UW: T4 Lightmine Field
Now on T4 for Jund, they can either attack with just the leech and pump to do 4 to UW or to kill the wall, depending on if UW blocks. OR, they can attack with both, pump the leech in response to taking 2 from the lightmine field, and get in for 3 with the thrinax (J:16 UW:13). If they BBE into bolt/blightning, it's J:16 UW:10.
Also note that if you had a T3 Knight of the White Orchid, it will now kill either the leech or the thrinax. Also note that if Jund BBEs into anything, that BBE isn't attacking unless they find a pulse to get through. Either way it sets UW up for a T5 Gideon to one-sided wrath them (unless they didn't find the pulse), or at the very least give a fog effect and most likely stay alive.
Even if they do have a pulse, you've successfully made it to T5 while not being in the red, against Jund's best draw. Sure, this is a "best draw" situation for your deck as well, but there's a lot more options for us (it just requires Field and a WoO vs Jund needing all 4 lands with all 3 colors, leech, thrinax, BBE).
And if you throw in a gideon coming down any time before you're dead, Jund goes into top-deck mode to find a pulse or burn, and the rest of their cards are dead.
T2: UW Lightmine Control UW
Let's be honest, you can't always rely on Jace to get you to the win and inflicting 20 damage probably a lot easier.
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It is incredibly situational. Just don't forget that they have vigilance, so assuming you're sitting on 6 mana + colonnade then you're still leaving Essence Scatter/Deprive/Negate mana open for their turn.
LSV believes this card is close to a reverse Blightning. I think its at least in the same school of anti-Blightning 'tech' as Grim Discovery, Vengevine, Bloodghast, and Swerve (although Cache is actually IN our colors).
The only real issue I have with it is that, on the play, Jund can pop off a T3 Blightning and rob you of half the value of the card. It would certainly be better if it were 1W, but I suppose R&D hasn't completely lost their minds yet.
Thoughts?
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A reverse blightning is a card that's the opposite of blightning. "Gain 3 life, draw 2 cards".
On the play, this can act as one against Jund:
Jund T2: Leech
UW T3: Cache (22, 20)
Even if Jund pumps leech, you both go to 18 and you get to draw the extra card. That assumes they don't have a lightning bolt or blightning on T3.
On the draw, the only way you can get value out of this card would be with WoO on T2 AND they don't have the bolt/blightning. Any smart Jund player would bolt you.
If you wanted to build around it, you could maybe play with Rest for the Weary or use Perimeter Captain or Kor Firewalkers, but I don't see that as being nearly strong enough.
T2: UW Lightmine Control UW
No, I understand the difference quite well; LSV thinks its close to a reverse Blightning; as I said, I think it might at least be an anti-Blightning since G2 you'll have Firewalkers and such).
Anyway, I don't think it necessarily needs to be built around, though it can't be coupled with Oust. I'm just wondering if it has sideboard applications.
For the record, if Jund wants to throw a bolt at you before the rebound that should be perfectly acceptable, as at that point Cache 1) will at least replace itself, providing you with card advantage, 2) made them use a piece of removal/burn that would be better spent on Jace, 'Speth, KotWO, Gideon, etc. Frankly Blightning on the play is the only card that truly impacts it's performance.
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I'd be hard pressed finding a spot in my 75 for it, though.
T2: UW Lightmine Control UW
If you use other creatures which are vulnerable to removal then the wall might let you get a little more value
Now, I'm not alone.
It's a necessary evil imo. And if you don't sweep those, then you're going to be hurting even worse when Emakural or some other Eldrazi comes out. I have a few buddies that have been sleaving up some insane Elrdazi-morph/Control and Token decks. Awakening Zone is going to be a nightmare for everyone.
The thing is, UW Control doesn't have a whole lot of T2 plays that really do a whole lot. Accelerate into a T3 DoJ/Jace, or leave mana open to counter something. KotWO is usually a T3 play unless you got a T1 borderpost, and often the correct call is to Chalice on T3 so you have counter mana open.
Having a tempo card as a 2-drop is great. If they waste removal on it, you're up a card and they're down a removal spell that could've been used on BSA. If you chump block a leech with it, you're at equal card advantage and youve effectively "gained" 4 life at the expense of your 2nd turn spell (instead of being at 16 and them at 18, you're at 20 and they're at 18). And if they don't get the leech, you effectively O-Ring'd or Essence Scatter'd their Thrinax or BBE.
The only downside I see is that it turns on their BitBlasts and gives them an extra cascade. That doesn't come until T5, though, and if it's still alive by then, you're still at 0 CA (and they traded their T4 attack and 5 mana for the 2 mana you spent on the wall), especially with 5th turn mana.
Chapin himself tweeted recently about how insane it is to build a UW deck without 4 Wall of Omens.
T2: UW Lightmine Control UW
also it turns on searing blaze against the red decks
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The thing I am questioning tho is that there are so many 2 drops I want to run: Spreading Seas, Wall of Omens, Everflowing Chalice.
Keep in mind I play against alot of either jund or monocolored decks so the spreading seas would pbly be sb.
Also, I'm wondering if it would be acceptable to cut out Jace 2.0... I have found him to be an idle threat and doesn't really put any preassure on the board and I want to make room for elspeth and Sphinx of jwar isle.