This isn't heavy testing by any means, but in the ~8 games I've played against a post-ROE Jund (I've tried with both Vengevine/Hatcher, and with Sarkhan/Broodmate/Siege-Gang builds), I've lost only 2 (both against the Sarkhan-based deck).
WoO is a great way to say alive long enough to get your 4-5cmc spells. One wall + Lightmine Field makes their BBE attack alone or stay behind, turns their Ruinblasters into stone rains, and makes them pay 2 life to pump their Leech before you declare a blocker (when otherwise you'd block the leech and let the sprinax hit you, and they wouldn't pump; not helpful if you're behind, but if you get a clock on them, that adds up to less turns they get to find an out).
Luminarch Ascension with Gideon is awesome. If a T4 jace sticks around long enough for a T5 Gideon to be played, they may as well scoop unless they have a pulse in their hand.
Thanks Jazzy! Let me know how you do against Jund, RDW, and Naya if you test those MU's. I'm about 50/50 with Jund, and my RDW can be a pain. Naya has been easy-cheesy in my testing.
This obviously doesn't play like UW. You want to BEAT FACE with the Sphinx and Collonades ASAP. You tag them once with both the Sphinx and Collonade and hit them with a bolt, they'll realize you can Lethal them the next turn.
My biggest problems have been finding room for O-ring's or MindSpring's in the main. I really don't miss them that much though, as tapping out to cast those cards can put you in a painful position. I'm digging the -1 Jace + 1 Mindspring. I might give that a shot.
I haven't tested the deck yet, but it seems like Jund will be a fair or good match-up, RDW will be decent but not excellent and Naya will be cake.
Yeah, the deck is completely different than any of the UW decks. It seems to be able to close the game out pretty fast once you have control. Colonnade and Sphinx swing in for 9, then swing again and bolt to the face or Earthquake. That's what I like about it's game against Jund, you don't have to control them for the long haul even if you have the ability to. The other reason I like this over UW is because most of the Gideon Jura/Wall builds seem really susceptible to Consume the Meek and I can see that card seeing a ton of play in my meta. I'd rather not run Wall of Denial at this point, and I'm even going to be scared to animate man-lands.
Mindspring and Martial Coup are less good in this deck because you don't have Chalice. I miss Martial Coup, but it just isn't needed if you have Sphinx and isn't as good in that spot without Chalice. I just like the -1 Jace and +1 Mindspring because I like the blowout Mindspring draw and not being too reliant on Jace. He helps the most when he's not the basis of your deck. He really seals the deal or gets you out of a tight spot, but often times you're in a stage in the game where he won't do much.
As for O-ring, you don't need it main nearly as bad as you need Lightning Bolt and a small number of Path. You could even go down to 1 Path if you want and slip in an O-ring, but sometimes you might wish it was a Path. Path and Bolt are the two most efficient removal spells in the game, and Lightning Bolt and Earthquake answer planeswalkers. You can even attack into them with Colonnade if need be.
Jazzy I would love to know how your guys build go but I have a question maybe a stupid one. Have you tried out Chandra Nalaar in this build. As of today I saw UW Control and liked it but I love these UWR builds. I am converting over from Vampires. And yes Consume the Meek is going to be essential in Vamp deck..
I'd like to introduce you to someone. His name is Wall of Omens. Say hi, Wall of Omens!
So, Wall of Omens, how do you think you're going to affect standard? What's that, you say? You're going to slot right into an already-established UW Control archetype, and improve the deck's matchup against Jund significantly? Wow, bold words there Wall of Omens.
Jazzy I would love to know how your guys build go but I have a question maybe a stupid one. Have you tried out Chandra Nalaar in this build. As of today I saw UW Control and liked it but I love these UWR builds. I am converting over from Vampires. And yes Consume the Meek is going to be essential in Vamp deck..
The problem is that Chandra requires double red. I don't think a 1-of is bad, but spots in the upper curve of the deck are very tight. The deck is very tight in general. It's difficult for the deck to be based around Chandra, but if you can make it work, go for it. I've always been a huge proponent of her.
I might test her out. I don't know yet. Your the red mana is hard to obtain in this deck especially 2 and upper curve is restricted with Jace and Ajani V. Maybe I'll take out a Jace hard call. That is what testing is for right.
I'd like to introduce you to someone. His name is Wall of Omens. Say hi, Wall of Omens!
So, Wall of Omens, how do you think you're going to affect standard? What's that, you say? You're going to slot right into an already-established UW Control archetype, and improve the deck's matchup against Jund significantly? Wow, bold words there Wall of Omens.
Jazzy I would love to know how your guys build go but I have a question maybe a stupid one. Have you tried out Chandra Nalaar in this build. As of today I saw UW Control and liked it but I love these UWR builds. I am converting over from Vampires. And yes Consume the Meek is going to be essential in Vamp deck..
Gideon acts as a pseudo-Chandra, without being taxing on your manabase. I'd run him over Chandra, if it was a choice between the two. The only downside is that he can't take out a Bloodwitch like Chandra can.
Gideon acts as a pseudo-Chandra, without being taxing on your manabase. I'd run him over Chandra, if it was a choice between the two. The only downside is that he can't take out a Bloodwitch like Chandra can.
Chandra is better removal but Gideon is probably more useful overall (warranting more inclusion than Chandra). The thing about Gideon is that he's a pretty good card, but he gets exponentially more useful as you build around him. You add him and all of the sudden you're playing UW with Lightmine Field and Wall of Denial.
Not that it's a reason to exclude him from your deck, it's just what's going to end up happening. The Gideon effect!
The deck doesn't need Chandra or Gideon though, and it kinda sucks for Chandra because I've been a huge fan of hers and now Gideon took basically her only role.
I like the UWR builds I'm seeing. The 4 Wall + 4 Spreading is something I've been wanting to do myself, seems like total cantrip happiness. Comments/thoughts though:
- Shouldn't Wall of Omens take away the need for any remaining Essence Scatters MD?
- 4 Double Negative + 2 Deprive seems extremely color-intensive for a counter base. However, hard-counters could make more room in a sense.
- Wall of Omens -- clearly an awesome control card, but does it lend itself more to UWr, UW tap-out, or UW Chapin style control? Could this determine which build finally comes out on top?
- I know we have a lot of cantrips, but cantrips aren't technically card draw. Can you really go so low on Mind Springs/Treasure Hunts? I am really not a fan of Treasure Hunt, but I would still want to fit in 2 Mind Spring and 3 Jace as a minimum draw engine.
- With 8 2cc cantrips and no Iona/Coup, can we finally drop to 25 land? (Then again we have no Chalice...)
- If you're running Deprive, would you want to try to have more Halimar? (That would be exceedingly hard if also dropping to 25 land...)
I'll try this out for a while and see how it goes.
** Edit. Fishbowled a bit. Switched 2 DN to 2 Cancel. Whatever advantage you gain against Jund/Naya is destroyed by the unreliability of RRU. Furthermore, with 4 Spreading Seas and 4 Wall of Omens, Jund and Naya are already in a world of hurt. Bloodbraid into Blightning, Cancel the Blightning (for example.) Sure it's annoying they have a free elf, but it dies all the same. Bloodbraid into Thrinax, same deal. Day takes them out. When you talk about cascade, you are talking about Bloodbraid 90% of the time. Hasted elf slams face into wall and/or dies at a later time. Not worth killing your counter base over having a slim chance of stopping it.
your assumption about being shut down is correct.. the creatures we can run for early game dont outclass anyone. you really think wall of omens can block a leech more then once? same goes for KotwO
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your assumption about being shut down is correct.. the creatures we can run for early game dont outclass anyone. you really think wall of omens can block a leech more then once? same goes for KotwO
And if they don't have a creature able to kill the wall, they have to overextend to get around it which just makes Day that much better.
Its pretty decent against Boss Naya, Mythic, Nayallies, Mono green, And other rogue non combo decks, Its even pretty decent against jund. Dont worry about DoJ'd away Wall of Omens and Knight of the white orchid. There job is to preserve your life total during the early turns. You shouldnt think twice about giving them up to a DoJ if it means wiping out 3+ of your opponents guys. Also, If you got out a baneslayer and they haven't killed him, you shouldn't need to DoJ barring very specific circustances.
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Quote from thundyr »
Jacerator is an aggro deck - it just wins by attacking the library, it doesn't really control the board other than to play a few Fogs
I think UW control is going to be really popular post RoE. I am definitely running 3 luminarch ascensions in the board for the 5k on may 1st. I suggest you do the same if you want a chance in the mirror.
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Quote from thundyr »
Jacerator is an aggro deck - it just wins by attacking the library, it doesn't really control the board other than to play a few Fogs
There are plenty of creatures that make your life a nighmare and no Sphinx or Wall of Omens will save you. Vamps especially needs to be swept clean due to prot-white, hexmages, deathtouch, etc.
Boros is weenie heavy, as is WW, Mono G, Naya, Mythic. Even going 2 for 1 with Day is usually worth it
Except that now you aren't trading as highly with Day of Judgment because you have creatures also.
If you have a wall out it usaully causes them to overextend, therefor making day of judgment more profitable. Wall replaces itself, so you dont miss out on any card advantage there. Knight ramps you so you dont miss out there either. You end up taking out more of their threats with day of judgment which is the most important thing. It doesnt matter if you kill knight or wall becauses their only job is to protect you until you can wrath and they replace themselves so your not losing out on CA.
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Quote from thundyr »
Jacerator is an aggro deck - it just wins by attacking the library, it doesn't really control the board other than to play a few Fogs
I've tested Gideon a good amount against some of the new Jund lists that are out. He is actually quite good in the matchup, if for no other reason than he can function as a fog for 2-3 turns. Dropping him on turn 4 or 5 often gives enough turns to stabalize, and if he survives past clearnig their board with a Day of Judgement or Matrial Coup, then he can end the game in very few turns (generally at most 3, as in most games they had activated a Putrid Leech or I had either Martial Coup tokens or Celestial Colonnade).
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-Josh
Team Dorito Challenge
WA State Standard Champion 2007
Constructed Rating: 1935
Sorry for my ignorance but why does WoO make them need to pump the leach if they are going to before we declare blockers?
Well they dont have to, but, Of course they are going to pay 2 life to kill your wall.
And he was saying having a wall and a lightmine field causes them to have to pump the leech early if they are attacking with 2 or more guys.
Additional benefits - Doesn't need triple white, kills indestructible creatures
It it worth it in the side? Against aggro decks it is far too slow, but against slower decks (especially tap put control which uses the borderposts) it might be worth it.
It kills Jace, so it's probably not your best plan in U/W control.
Not to mention, the only real sweeper you're going to need in U/W is Day. You don't much care for sweeping against other control decks with a seven mana spell that kills your own Jace.
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In Memory of Dr. Jeebus. Banned, but not forgotten.
One question that I have come up against as I start to learn how to play this this deck is when or when not to activate Colonnades? Here is the dilemma:
If I get Jace down T3/4 by the time I have mana open to activate a Colonnade on my turn I often just want to leave it open to activate my colonnade for defense. Or if I have enough mana for counters attacking with a colonnade would not leave that mana open. Seems pretty obvious here to hang back with the colonnade.
1. However, things become soon less obvious. When Jace is out of immediate haste/bolt range and I could activate a Colonnade with counter/edge mana left open. Should I activate my colonnade proactively and attack? Or just continue to sit back on even more defence waiting Jace to finish "his Job"
2. Or, if its getting to mid-game and I haven't been able to put down Jace for some sad unhappy reason should I start to activate my colonnade when I can have counter mana up to attack and open up another potential win/con? Or once again just sit back, play defensively and keep the colonnade un-tapped for creature defence since I'm already probably low on health.
My gut has been to just sit back and play defensive patiently waiting to win with Jace. However I am wondering if there are situations/times when that might be potentially un-advisable and even dangerous.
Thanks for thoughts!
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WoO is a great way to say alive long enough to get your 4-5cmc spells. One wall + Lightmine Field makes their BBE attack alone or stay behind, turns their Ruinblasters into stone rains, and makes them pay 2 life to pump their Leech before you declare a blocker (when otherwise you'd block the leech and let the sprinax hit you, and they wouldn't pump; not helpful if you're behind, but if you get a clock on them, that adds up to less turns they get to find an out).
Luminarch Ascension with Gideon is awesome. If a T4 jace sticks around long enough for a T5 Gideon to be played, they may as well scoop unless they have a pulse in their hand.
For reference, my current deck is here.
T2: UW Lightmine Control UW
I haven't tested the deck yet, but it seems like Jund will be a fair or good match-up, RDW will be decent but not excellent and Naya will be cake.
Yeah, the deck is completely different than any of the UW decks. It seems to be able to close the game out pretty fast once you have control. Colonnade and Sphinx swing in for 9, then swing again and bolt to the face or Earthquake. That's what I like about it's game against Jund, you don't have to control them for the long haul even if you have the ability to. The other reason I like this over UW is because most of the Gideon Jura/Wall builds seem really susceptible to Consume the Meek and I can see that card seeing a ton of play in my meta. I'd rather not run Wall of Denial at this point, and I'm even going to be scared to animate man-lands.
Mindspring and Martial Coup are less good in this deck because you don't have Chalice. I miss Martial Coup, but it just isn't needed if you have Sphinx and isn't as good in that spot without Chalice. I just like the -1 Jace and +1 Mindspring because I like the blowout Mindspring draw and not being too reliant on Jace. He helps the most when he's not the basis of your deck. He really seals the deal or gets you out of a tight spot, but often times you're in a stage in the game where he won't do much.
As for O-ring, you don't need it main nearly as bad as you need Lightning Bolt and a small number of Path. You could even go down to 1 Path if you want and slip in an O-ring, but sometimes you might wish it was a Path. Path and Bolt are the two most efficient removal spells in the game, and Lightning Bolt and Earthquake answer planeswalkers. You can even attack into them with Colonnade if need be.
The problem is that Chandra requires double red. I don't think a 1-of is bad, but spots in the upper curve of the deck are very tight. The deck is very tight in general. It's difficult for the deck to be based around Chandra, but if you can make it work, go for it. I've always been a huge proponent of her.
Gideon acts as a pseudo-Chandra, without being taxing on your manabase. I'd run him over Chandra, if it was a choice between the two. The only downside is that he can't take out a Bloodwitch like Chandra can.
Chandra is better removal but Gideon is probably more useful overall (warranting more inclusion than Chandra). The thing about Gideon is that he's a pretty good card, but he gets exponentially more useful as you build around him. You add him and all of the sudden you're playing UW with Lightmine Field and Wall of Denial.
Not that it's a reason to exclude him from your deck, it's just what's going to end up happening. The Gideon effect!
The deck doesn't need Chandra or Gideon though, and it kinda sucks for Chandra because I've been a huge fan of hers and now Gideon took basically her only role.
- Shouldn't Wall of Omens take away the need for any remaining Essence Scatters MD?
- 4 Double Negative + 2 Deprive seems extremely color-intensive for a counter base. However, hard-counters could make more room in a sense.
- Wall of Omens -- clearly an awesome control card, but does it lend itself more to UWr, UW tap-out, or UW Chapin style control? Could this determine which build finally comes out on top?
- I know we have a lot of cantrips, but cantrips aren't technically card draw. Can you really go so low on Mind Springs/Treasure Hunts? I am really not a fan of Treasure Hunt, but I would still want to fit in 2 Mind Spring and 3 Jace as a minimum draw engine.
- With 8 2cc cantrips and no Iona/Coup, can we finally drop to 25 land? (Then again we have no Chalice...)
- If you're running Deprive, would you want to try to have more Halimar? (That would be exceedingly hard if also dropping to 25 land...)
4 Arid Mesa
4 Celestial Colonnade
3 Glacial Fortress
3 Halimar Depths
3 Island
3 Mountain
3 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Negate
2 Cancel
2 Deprive
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Path to Exile
Enchantment (4)
4 Spreading Seas
Sorcery (8)
4 Day of Judgment
2 Earthquake
2 Mind Spring
3 Ajani Vengeant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Creature (6)
2 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
4 Wall of Omens
I'll try this out for a while and see how it goes.
** Edit. Fishbowled a bit. Switched 2 DN to 2 Cancel. Whatever advantage you gain against Jund/Naya is destroyed by the unreliability of RRU. Furthermore, with 4 Spreading Seas and 4 Wall of Omens, Jund and Naya are already in a world of hurt. Bloodbraid into Blightning, Cancel the Blightning (for example.) Sure it's annoying they have a free elf, but it dies all the same. Bloodbraid into Thrinax, same deal. Day takes them out. When you talk about cascade, you are talking about Bloodbraid 90% of the time. Hasted elf slams face into wall and/or dies at a later time. Not worth killing your counter base over having a slim chance of stopping it.
I know its also "not" Baneslayer but is Battlegrace Angel at all decent for a "sub par" spot on the sideboard? It could give a colonnade Lifelink.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
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4-0-0
And if they don't have a creature able to kill the wall, they have to overextend to get around it which just makes Day that much better.
exactly
4-0-0
Its pretty decent against Boss Naya, Mythic, Nayallies, Mono green, And other rogue non combo decks, Its even pretty decent against jund. Dont worry about DoJ'd away Wall of Omens and Knight of the white orchid. There job is to preserve your life total during the early turns. You shouldnt think twice about giving them up to a DoJ if it means wiping out 3+ of your opponents guys. Also, If you got out a baneslayer and they haven't killed him, you shouldn't need to DoJ barring very specific circustances.
Boros is weenie heavy, as is WW, Mono G, Naya, Mythic. Even going 2 for 1 with Day is usually worth it
If you have a wall out it usaully causes them to overextend, therefor making day of judgment more profitable. Wall replaces itself, so you dont miss out on any card advantage there. Knight ramps you so you dont miss out there either. You end up taking out more of their threats with day of judgment which is the most important thing. It doesnt matter if you kill knight or wall becauses their only job is to protect you until you can wrath and they replace themselves so your not losing out on CA.
Team Dorito Challenge
WA State Standard Champion 2007
Constructed Rating: 1935
Well they dont have to, but, Of course they are going to pay 2 life to kill your wall.
And he was saying having a wall and a lightmine field causes them to have to pump the leech early if they are attacking with 2 or more guys.
Additional benefits - Doesn't need triple white, kills indestructible creatures
It it worth it in the side? Against aggro decks it is far too slow, but against slower decks (especially tap put control which uses the borderposts) it might be worth it.
Thoughts?
Not to mention, the only real sweeper you're going to need in U/W is Day. You don't much care for sweeping against other control decks with a seven mana spell that kills your own Jace.
"Wizards could put $100 bills in packs and people would complain about how they were folded."
In Memory of Dr. Jeebus. Banned, but not forgotten.
My current trade thread.
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Standard
UW UW Control
B MBC (developing)
Legacy
WUG Bant
If I get Jace down T3/4 by the time I have mana open to activate a Colonnade on my turn I often just want to leave it open to activate my colonnade for defense. Or if I have enough mana for counters attacking with a colonnade would not leave that mana open. Seems pretty obvious here to hang back with the colonnade.
1. However, things become soon less obvious. When Jace is out of immediate haste/bolt range and I could activate a Colonnade with counter/edge mana left open. Should I activate my colonnade proactively and attack? Or just continue to sit back on even more defence waiting Jace to finish "his Job"
2. Or, if its getting to mid-game and I haven't been able to put down Jace for some sad unhappy reason should I start to activate my colonnade when I can have counter mana up to attack and open up another potential win/con? Or once again just sit back, play defensively and keep the colonnade un-tapped for creature defence since I'm already probably low on health.
My gut has been to just sit back and play defensive patiently waiting to win with Jace. However I am wondering if there are situations/times when that might be potentially un-advisable and even dangerous.
Thanks for thoughts!