Seems very innovative. As the metagame moves against Jund the deck has to adapt.
This list seems tuned to a PTQ, so probably won't risk facing red decks past the first few rounds. From then on it eats up planeswalker decks (fingers crossed).
Post board against Mythic/Conscription, it has:
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Doom Blade
1x Burst Lightning
4x Maelstrom Pulse
These are for killing their mana creatures. Mulligan until you get one, and then hope you last long enough to cast Consuming Vapours and Bituminous Blast.
I'd like to play this at FNM this week, although with a few changes for the metagame.
Im a Polymorph player, so I thought I'd throw my two cents into the mix.
First off, Jund is probably the easiest match up for Polymorph. Most builds will be running 4 Spreading Seas maindeck, and up to 6 counterspells...do remember that deprive is a REAL counter and will hit Siege Gang and Broodmate Dragon as wel as Maelstrom Pulse. Awakening Zone and Khalni Garden produce so many chump blockers, that you will have problems getting through on the ground, especially if you have to slow roll your board development as early as turn 3 to keep removal mana open. Remember, you might skip that turn three blightning to ensure bolt mana only to see them spreading seas away your red, and Explore into Deprive mana next turn.
Post-board don't expect to ever be seeing Iona. Emmy is MUCH better against Jund, as Sarkhan is literally the ONLY way you can kill him, and one swing is game. The post above mentioning executioner's capsule is actually a really good idea. I know I would never let one resolve on my opponents side if I had the choice. Thought-Hemmorage is great tech, but don't be surprised if the don't scoop. Many players will just change gears to a lockdown control using Spreading Seas, Deprive, Flashfreeze and Mind Control to buy them time to ramp into casting Emmy off of Awkening Zone. Dear God don't side out Pulse! repeat after me...Pulse the Zone, Pulse the Zone...
That's all I got. Best of luck with the match-up, cause knowing I'm playing Jund makes me smile with Poly. I do so hate going to g3;)
Specter is good against pretty much every matchup except Weenies, Bant, and Naya. Any control deck or the mirror it's a really good card against (I've seen it in action there)
The Red Deck Wins matchup seems fine. You're a lot more capable to race them with this list then you are with regular Jund, so the lack of removal is probably not a big deal. And on top of it, he clearly has some extra spells out of the board that should improve it post-board.
The Mythic Matchup is the only one I think this looks weak against, but I could be entirely wrong because Geopede might be ridiculous here, I've just never tested it.
The one card I strongly dislike in the maindeck is Plated Geopede. Can't really see why he played them. It looks as lame as Rampant Growth when you cascade into it.
Other choices are all negotiable, but the reasons behind this one really need some explaining I think.
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In the mirror you don't want to play reactively.
And typically a control deck plays 4 Spreading Seas, that's 4 cards that we have to rely on the opponent playing to make a 4 of in our deck active?
It just seems bad since, again, a control deck isn't something you want to 'react' to.
Other than that, I like the deck. Geopede is a really good creature here.
edit: Didn't see the 1x Island in the SB, I approve of Specter in the list now.
Executioner's Capsule doesn't sound half bad now that you mention it. Especially for a matchup like this but also in matchups where you might be up against a very creature-light opponent where you still want a little removal but don't want dead cascades.
if they have more than one token on the board and plan to combo out next turn, exc is easily answered with an EoT bounce.
Keep in mind, you're not playing against idiots.
A combination of TH, Duress, and mayhaps exc would be good.
And those are all decent against the UW and UWr matchup. But I wouldn't count on JUST exc to be your out against Polymorph.
I understand where everyone here says spectre is a bad bad bad bad play.
but i do have to bring up one point.
HE WON THE TOURNAMENT. not trying to flame so please dont take it as such.
all im saying is that although he did not run a generally optimal list, what he did run ended up working out for him in the end. even if this deck was a one trick pony and it never works again, it won him the pro tour invite.
he was preparred to to play a deck that would be ridiculed in order to chance that it would be good. He has obviously been playing a long time and is a good player too in order to have the insight and the knowlegde of the meta break down to understand that he was going to do well. Which means something to all those who have/ are attending their local PTQs and losing with regular jund.
myself included.
--------
that being said, i like his build and the only complaint i have is one already expressed in that i disagree with the inclusion of blast and would wish to see terminate.
but i get what he was thinking. even if he blasts away a wall, he still has the chance at cascading into the 4 pulses he has to deal with the planeswalkers. good meta call guy.
The one card I strongly dislike in the maindeck is Plated Geopede. Can't really see why he played them. It looks as lame as Rampant Growth when you cascade into it.
Other choices are all negotiable, but the reasons behind this one really need some explaining I think.
not sure either, yeah it's somewhat useful against RDW if it doesn't get removed.
If control doesn't have a board pressence or any blockers, the card seems very impressive as you can deal massive damage without over extending.
MTG Salvation: where people who have never won a tournament criticize decks they have not tested because they are not carbon copies of three month old lists.
There seems to be discussion going both pro and con for the list, so I'm not sure why there are people all up and arms about "bashing". I personally think the list is really solid, with a few questions that testing would clear up for those of us still looking at it shockingly.
I've played my regular Jund versus U-Jund a bunch of times. Sedraxis Specter + Blightning is downright Savage and the unearth ability is very relevant.
As the other guy said, Geopede is functionally Leeches 5-8.
I think what is hard to see on paper here that would probably flesh out in actually playing the deck is how geopede changes the deck. He's a whole different animal than what Jund normally is doing in that spot, and the amount of fetches he requires to play makes Jund more resilient to spreading seas. I posted a list that it similar to this one in the Post ROE thread if anyone's curious on possible adjustments.
Very groundbreaking stuff, even if the build is meta-geared and possibly a flash in the pan.
Not sure why people think this list would have a worst matchup vs RDW. Honestly i think the Geopedes help out in that matchup big time, stops Ball lightning and hellspark cold.. if you play an uncracked fetch, also stops kiln fiend cold as well. Sure they can use searing blaze or whatever to remove it, but if htey dont have the removal in hand, any first striker is money vs RDW and thats one less burn to the face.
also races vs RDW to a degree... though i cant suggest that being the best strategy
All in all, i think this is a very cool list, very innovative and fresh, kudos to its pilot.
Plays Geopede to basically give him 8 Putrid Leechs. With 8 fetches in the deck, U/W doesn't have as much power in...
A) Two drop cantrips that hose Jund. With 8 Fetches, Spreading becomes more difficult on turn 2 after double fetchland, not to mention the fact it is enabling Plated Geopede. What don't you people like about Geopede? Putrid Leech that beats past Wall of OM(g)ens by dropping a fetch? Also, you have to understand..
B) It trades with a Baneslayer with a fetchland. TRADES WITH A BANESLAYER. This seems to be a point i'm emphasizing, and for good reason believe it or not. None of the creatures Jund has ever run have been able to attack INTO a Baneslayer Angel without some form of assistance. Plated Geopede can keep the beats coming without worrying about the First Strike/Lifelink combination. And if Angel swings back? Jund crackback seems more than adequate with Geopede in the mix.
C) Is this REALLY worse then Rampant Growth to cascade into? Absolutely not. Geopede brings the mana curve of the deck significantly down, and that is why it does without Rampant Growth and actually thrives as such. I don't believe this list runs the 27th land Jund has been going with these days either, again lowered curve= more power cards.
Overall this MAY have just been a good tourney-day meta call, but I personally think this guy is onto what needs to happen for Jund-- more beaters to get past Baneslayer and Wall of Omens.
Because if you think U/W is going to think of more than 1 other finisher to play than that....
Consume the Meek is a horrible answer. You think a 5 mana spell against a deck that is going to be two land drops ahead of you by turn five AND runs 6 counters main is a good answer? Capsule on the other hand is perfectly sensible. If they bounce it, you simply cast and burn. You will be facing Emmy game two. Let me make that a bit clearer, YOU WILL BE FACING EMMY GAME TWO. Seriously, Iona is so MEH against Jund.
Playtest this match-up a few times and you will start to see the problems. It's hilarious how everyone here assumes its an easy match-up. Have you tested it, or just seen some kid trying to pilot Poly at FNM because he likes Emmrakul? Polymorph is one of the most difficult decks in standard right now to tune and pilot, but in the hands of an experienced player it can destroy...
"One of the knocks against Polymorph decks is that it is easily disruptable by killing the target of the Polymorph—not a hard task when you are picking on puny Plant and Spawn tokens—but Kenji explained that the deck was not intended to be played recklessly and that it has the mana and plenty of time to wait for just the right opportunity. One mistake Kenji noticed other people making with the deck is hurrying to try and get their combo; he pointed out that he would rarely play a Khalni Garden on the same turn he was going to Polymorph. Most of the match-ups come down to who has the most mana—and the most patience."
I think the Specter out of the board is supported immensely by the 1x Island from the board. With 8 ways of getting blue (5 fetches, 2 rangers and the Island itself), it doesn't matter if your opponent hits Spreading Seas, or even if he's playing Seas at all. I could see Specter being a huge threat in the mirror, always trading for at least 2 cards: the one they use to kill him and the one he gets on the unearth attack.
You know what else always trades for two cards and 3 life in the mirror? Blightning.
specter is so good, kenneth ellis and I joked about running blue in the board before it but neither of us played, nice to see we were on the right track, but credit to the 2 T8 lists that ran them, great innovation, and specter is bad? yes so is you not playing a thrinax on T3 because they spreading sees you and you dont have green, oh wait now you play specter, plus its great against blightnings, lets you hit for 3, get a card, and have bolt mana
Hmm interesting, I was at the ptq in Santa Clara and the jund list i saw in the top 4 had vengevine in its list and was working quite well. Other than the points brought up, Plated Geopede also increased the chances of bbeing into a 2 drop creature to bring back venge. He woulda made it to the finals but made a minor error in the 3rd game that cost him the game against uw.
The guy who placed 5th playing this deck is Josh Utter-Layton, aka Wrapter. He writes for Channel-Fireball, so it's possible there is some influence from LSV or others on that team in these lists.
Plays Geopede to basically give him 8 Putrid Leechs. With 8 fetches in the deck, U/W doesn't have as much power in...
A) Two drop cantrips that hose Jund. With 8 Fetches, Spreading becomes more difficult on turn 2 after double fetchland, not to mention the fact it is enabling Plated Geopede. What don't you people like about Geopede? Putrid Leech that beats past Wall of OM(g)ens by dropping a fetch? Also, you have to understand..
B) It trades with a Baneslayer with a fetchland. TRADES WITH A BANESLAYER. This seems to be a point i'm emphasizing, and for good reason believe it or not. None of the creatures Jund has ever run have been able to attack INTO a Baneslayer Angel without some form of assistance. Plated Geopede can keep the beats coming without worrying about the First Strike/Lifelink combination. And if Angel swings back? Jund crackback seems more than adequate with Geopede in the mix.
C) Is this REALLY worse then Rampant Growth to cascade into? Absolutely not. Geopede brings the mana curve of the deck significantly down, and that is why it does without Rampant Growth and actually thrives as such. I don't believe this list runs the 27th land Jund has been going with these days either, again lowered curve= more power cards.
Overall this MAY have just been a good tourney-day meta call, but I personally think this guy is onto what needs to happen for Jund-- more beaters to get past Baneslayer and Wall of Omens.
Well, if it is supposed to act as a Putrid Leech proxy it really needs to work overtime. You need to hit two landfall triggers for it to go through Wall of Omens or Baneslayer Angel. When it doesn't it's a 3/3 "vanilla" most of the time (First Strike is only as relevant as the heaviness of the creature's punch allows it to be) and that's only when it is attacking. Not a significant threat by any means, not even in the mirror.
The fact that it was played here illustrates the state of two-drops in the new Standard format.
Borderland Ranger has me thinking of how much mana fixing and lands do I really need in my build. I don't think anyone here would play less then 26, with or without mana fixing. Also, now that I think about it, he should be the superior choice to Rampant Growth, not because of being a better cascade hit (which it undoubtedly is) but also because you don't give the blue player a window of opportunity to screw you out of the color you've just spent a card to find.
Finally, Sedraxis Specter from the sideboard is just brilliant and I'm greatly looking forward to testing that strategy for the mirror and against blue decks.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
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This list seems tuned to a PTQ, so probably won't risk facing red decks past the first few rounds. From then on it eats up planeswalker decks (fingers crossed).
Post board against Mythic/Conscription, it has:
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Doom Blade
1x Burst Lightning
4x Maelstrom Pulse
These are for killing their mana creatures. Mulligan until you get one, and then hope you last long enough to cast Consuming Vapours and Bituminous Blast.
I'd like to play this at FNM this week, although with a few changes for the metagame.
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First off, Jund is probably the easiest match up for Polymorph. Most builds will be running 4 Spreading Seas maindeck, and up to 6 counterspells...do remember that deprive is a REAL counter and will hit Siege Gang and Broodmate Dragon as wel as Maelstrom Pulse. Awakening Zone and Khalni Garden produce so many chump blockers, that you will have problems getting through on the ground, especially if you have to slow roll your board development as early as turn 3 to keep removal mana open. Remember, you might skip that turn three blightning to ensure bolt mana only to see them spreading seas away your red, and Explore into Deprive mana next turn.
Post-board don't expect to ever be seeing Iona. Emmy is MUCH better against Jund, as Sarkhan is literally the ONLY way you can kill him, and one swing is game. The post above mentioning executioner's capsule is actually a really good idea. I know I would never let one resolve on my opponents side if I had the choice. Thought-Hemmorage is great tech, but don't be surprised if the don't scoop. Many players will just change gears to a lockdown control using Spreading Seas, Deprive, Flashfreeze and Mind Control to buy them time to ramp into casting Emmy off of Awkening Zone. Dear God don't side out Pulse! repeat after me...Pulse the Zone, Pulse the Zone...
That's all I got. Best of luck with the match-up, cause knowing I'm playing Jund makes me smile with Poly. I do so hate going to g3;)
The Red Deck Wins matchup seems fine. You're a lot more capable to race them with this list then you are with regular Jund, so the lack of removal is probably not a big deal. And on top of it, he clearly has some extra spells out of the board that should improve it post-board.
The Mythic Matchup is the only one I think this looks weak against, but I could be entirely wrong because Geopede might be ridiculous here, I've just never tested it.
RWU
Zedruu, the Greathearted
RGW Uril, the Miststalker
Other choices are all negotiable, but the reasons behind this one really need some explaining I think.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
In the mirror you don't want to play reactively.
And typically a control deck plays 4 Spreading Seas, that's 4 cards that we have to rely on the opponent playing to make a 4 of in our deck active?
It just seems bad since, again, a control deck isn't something you want to 'react' to.
Other than that, I like the deck. Geopede is a really good creature here.
edit: Didn't see the 1x Island in the SB, I approve of Specter in the list now.
Sig courtesy of DOLZero
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if they have more than one token on the board and plan to combo out next turn, exc is easily answered with an EoT bounce.
Keep in mind, you're not playing against idiots.
A combination of TH, Duress, and mayhaps exc would be good.
And those are all decent against the UW and UWr matchup. But I wouldn't count on JUST exc to be your out against Polymorph.
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but i do have to bring up one point.
HE WON THE TOURNAMENT. not trying to flame so please dont take it as such.
all im saying is that although he did not run a generally optimal list, what he did run ended up working out for him in the end. even if this deck was a one trick pony and it never works again, it won him the pro tour invite.
he was preparred to to play a deck that would be ridiculed in order to chance that it would be good. He has obviously been playing a long time and is a good player too in order to have the insight and the knowlegde of the meta break down to understand that he was going to do well. Which means something to all those who have/ are attending their local PTQs and losing with regular jund.
myself included.
--------
that being said, i like his build and the only complaint i have is one already expressed in that i disagree with the inclusion of blast and would wish to see terminate.
but i get what he was thinking. even if he blasts away a wall, he still has the chance at cascading into the 4 pulses he has to deal with the planeswalkers. good meta call guy.
Plated Geopede is Putrid Leeches 5-8, and the Sedraxis Specters fly over Wall of Omens.
not sure either, yeah it's somewhat useful against RDW if it doesn't get removed.
If control doesn't have a board pressence or any blockers, the card seems very impressive as you can deal massive damage without over extending.
I've played my regular Jund versus U-Jund a bunch of times. Sedraxis Specter + Blightning is downright Savage and the unearth ability is very relevant.
As the other guy said, Geopede is functionally Leeches 5-8.
I think what is hard to see on paper here that would probably flesh out in actually playing the deck is how geopede changes the deck. He's a whole different animal than what Jund normally is doing in that spot, and the amount of fetches he requires to play makes Jund more resilient to spreading seas. I posted a list that it similar to this one in the Post ROE thread if anyone's curious on possible adjustments.
Very groundbreaking stuff, even if the build is meta-geared and possibly a flash in the pan.
RWU
Zedruu, the Greathearted
RGW Uril, the Miststalker
also races vs RDW to a degree... though i cant suggest that being the best strategy
All in all, i think this is a very cool list, very innovative and fresh, kudos to its pilot.
A) Two drop cantrips that hose Jund. With 8 Fetches, Spreading becomes more difficult on turn 2 after double fetchland, not to mention the fact it is enabling Plated Geopede. What don't you people like about Geopede? Putrid Leech that beats past Wall of OM(g)ens by dropping a fetch? Also, you have to understand..
B) It trades with a Baneslayer with a fetchland. TRADES WITH A BANESLAYER. This seems to be a point i'm emphasizing, and for good reason believe it or not. None of the creatures Jund has ever run have been able to attack INTO a Baneslayer Angel without some form of assistance. Plated Geopede can keep the beats coming without worrying about the First Strike/Lifelink combination. And if Angel swings back? Jund crackback seems more than adequate with Geopede in the mix.
C) Is this REALLY worse then Rampant Growth to cascade into? Absolutely not. Geopede brings the mana curve of the deck significantly down, and that is why it does without Rampant Growth and actually thrives as such. I don't believe this list runs the 27th land Jund has been going with these days either, again lowered curve= more power cards.
Overall this MAY have just been a good tourney-day meta call, but I personally think this guy is onto what needs to happen for Jund-- more beaters to get past Baneslayer and Wall of Omens.
Because if you think U/W is going to think of more than 1 other finisher to play than that....
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Playtest this match-up a few times and you will start to see the problems. It's hilarious how everyone here assumes its an easy match-up. Have you tested it, or just seen some kid trying to pilot Poly at FNM because he likes Emmrakul? Polymorph is one of the most difficult decks in standard right now to tune and pilot, but in the hands of an experienced player it can destroy...
You know what else always trades for two cards and 3 life in the mirror? Blightning.
Dan
Has this given anyone any thoughts on going to the GBRu version of Jund that was tested a while back pre-RoE
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Just something to keep in mind.
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Well, if it is supposed to act as a Putrid Leech proxy it really needs to work overtime. You need to hit two landfall triggers for it to go through Wall of Omens or Baneslayer Angel. When it doesn't it's a 3/3 "vanilla" most of the time (First Strike is only as relevant as the heaviness of the creature's punch allows it to be) and that's only when it is attacking. Not a significant threat by any means, not even in the mirror.
The fact that it was played here illustrates the state of two-drops in the new Standard format.
Borderland Ranger has me thinking of how much mana fixing and lands do I really need in my build. I don't think anyone here would play less then 26, with or without mana fixing. Also, now that I think about it, he should be the superior choice to Rampant Growth, not because of being a better cascade hit (which it undoubtedly is) but also because you don't give the blue player a window of opportunity to screw you out of the color you've just spent a card to find.
Finally, Sedraxis Specter from the sideboard is just brilliant and I'm greatly looking forward to testing that strategy for the mirror and against blue decks.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.