Ascension is pretty much your best win con in this deck. Monument is cut for getting you blockers or something, but an army of 1/2 flying spawn isnt exactly what i'd call an alpha strike.
If you run Broodwarden and/or any Eldrazi then the Monument is the way to go.
If you're going purely for the token swarm then I second the Ascension route with Garruk backup. However you guys running 7/8 overrun cards .... test that because it seems way too much.
Wow I feel dumb. The cards i forgot were 4 Broodwardens!!!
@Urza: Yes, I run 3 BBE's with 2 x spells, and I havnt hit a single banefire. I've only casted it a few times also, they like to hide deep within my deck.
@Principal: I'm running 8 "overrun" effects (counting Broodwarden) and I've been doing fine. Maybe some of you guys like a horde of 0/1s not doing anything but looking pretty; I for one prefer them killing the opponent, and 10 pump effects is simply a requirement when running a token deck that produces tokens completely incapable of offense. Of course there will be variations, but I think thats a good number of pumpers.
Ascension is pretty much your best win con in this deck. Monument is cut for getting you blockers or something, but an army of 1/2 flying spawn isnt exactly what i'd call an alpha strike. I would take out the mights, there not needed. Also swap the birds for 3 BBE's they are great in this deck (surprise), usually digging out an awakening zone or ascension. Also -4 kozileks predator for +4 awakening zone, and -3 hatcher for +1 bolt and +2 rapacious one. Hatcher is too slow, as is predator.
I find it funny that you say hatcher and predator are too slow and yet you tell me to run Rapacious One, which costs more, has a good chance of dying before he makes anything, and doesnt help you win with ascension nearly as fast as hatcher and predator do.
I put the mights in for a little bit of a combat trick since this deck doesnt really have any of that other than bolt. Though I could see taking it out for a couple zones.
I would like to run BBE, but Im not sure about taking out the birds for em. This deck is slow to get out the door so Id like the accel in there. Ill try it out with the elves though.
Wow I feel dumb. The cards i forgot were 4 Broodwardens!!!
@Urza: Yes, I run 3 BBE's with 2 x spells, and I havnt hit a single banefire. I've only casted it a few times also, they like to hide deep within my deck.
It only needs to happen ONCE for you to realize how bad it feels.
It isn't worth it.
I find it funny that you say hatcher and predator are too slow and yet you tell me to run Rapacious One, which costs more, has a good chance of dying before he makes anything, and doesnt help you win with ascension nearly as fast as hatcher and predator do.
I put the mights in for a little bit of a combat trick since this deck doesnt really have any of that other than bolt. Though I could see taking it out for a couple zones.
I would like to run BBE, but Im not sure about taking out the birds for em. This deck is slow to get out the door so Id like the accel in there. Ill try it out with the elves though.
Think of it this way, would you rather devote slots to a card that, when drawn early on, can speed things out...
Or a card that is good at any stage of the game, is a threat on its own, and grabs and plays another spell (possibly a wincon) out of your deck for free?
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How does Kozileks predator help you win with Ascension out? Sure it comes out earlier but it only gives you one spawn, dies to bolt, and generates no more CA past the initial token. Rapacious One DOESNT die to bolt, is bigger and therefore harder to block, and is a must answer threat for your opponent. If they dont kill him quickly, you will have a constant stream of tokens. If they do kill him, then who cares. Hes just an means to an ends, not the ends itself. And as for the hatcher, I think we have enough fire-and-forget token generators in brood birthing, growth spasm and nest invader. Rapacious One is a constant source of advantage and while this makes him a target, like I said before, hes just a means to an ends, not the ends itself.
@Urza: I guess I like Banefire for when I can't push through those last few bits of damage or my opponent is hiding behind a bunch of walls and i'm not drawing any ascensions or wardens. I will keep it in until we think of something better.
How does Kozileks predator help you win with Ascension out? Sure it comes out earlier but it only gives you one spawn, dies to bolt, and generates no more CA past the initial token. Rapacious One DOESNT die to bolt, is bigger and therefore harder to block, and is a must answer threat for your opponent. If they dont kill him quickly, you will have a constant stream of tokens. If they do kill him, then who cares. Hes just an means to an ends, not the ends itself. And as for the hatcher, I think we have enough fire-and-forget token generators in brood birthing, growth spasm and nest invader. Rapacious One is a constant source of advantage and while this makes him a target, like I said before, hes just a means to an ends, not the ends itself.
The predator makes two tokens.
So if he dies to bolt then oh well, you got two spawns out of it. He has an immediate board presence with those spawns. Granted he does die to bolt and One doesnt, but One does die to any other removal. So if you play predator and he dies to removal you still got two spawns, if One dies to removal then you got nothing.
If you run Broodwarden and/or any Eldrazi then the Monument is the way to go.
If you're going purely for the token swarm then I second the Ascension route with Garruk backup. However you guys running 7/8 overrun cards .... test that because it seems way too much.
You have to have at least 8 overrun effects or else the deck is way too inconsistent. There are times where you just cannot draw one and if that happens, you will lose the game because your deck doesn't really do anything but make 0 power creatures.
I'm surprised no one has any interest in Algae Gharial He seems like a superbeast here.
He's just a big fatty. Your opponent will kill you much faster than you will swinging with a 10/10 that gets chumped every turn.
EDIT: Tried out the Bloodbraid/Ascension idea and wasn't happy with it. Day of Judgment just hurts too much not to run Monument. That card just wins games. So here is my decklist now.
Took out the Skittering for another Monument. You absolutely have to have one out by turn 4-5 or you are going to die.
The only thing I don't like about this deck is that Growth Spasm and Ancient Stirrings is kind of a bombo as Spasm will reshuffle your deck. I think it's a necessary evil though, but maybe a couple copies of Spawning Breath could be played in it's place. The other thing that I don't like is how slow the deck is. It's not entirely slow if you get a great draw, but I was playing against Mythic. Mythic HURTS if they get an early Elspeth or Sovereign. Monument is really the card you need to have to survive against them. My friend was also playing a homebrew mono white control deck with Gideon and he is also a pain. Usually, you are trying to stabilize and you play a Coat or Monument, but forcing everyone to attack Gideon kind've makes you loose.
Personally, I think the deck could use a transformative sb with different wincons, so the opponent never really knows the ways you can win out of nowhere.
4 goblin assault
2 predator dragon
2 comet storm
2 all is dust
3 ulmalog
2 pathrazer
something like that could be interesting...
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Really want to test this deck some more, this is what I plan to put together in its next iteration.
it seems like birds + elves/hierarch would be really good in this build especially if you added in goblin assaults main deck which seem considerable since u do run 4 beastmaster ascension.
also how good is growth spasm? i just dont see it being that great to play in this deck... but i also havnt tested with it.
Here's what I'm running. So far I've totally wrecked an elf deck and an ally deck, 2 of the matchups I was actually afraid of due to coat of arms. I find it runs a whole lot like elfball used to run, it gets insane really fast. Surprisingly the card I don't really like in here is Garruk, feels win more most of the time. Awakening zone + Monument is the best synergy ever, Coat of arms is a must have, but only play it after monument. I had 10 10/11 flying tokens swinging in no time at all, accompanied by a 10/6 rapacious One, which on its own is a massive threat that comes out turn 4-5 a lot. spawning breath is gold vs. early mana dorks, eot breath into my turn birthing is great on turn 3. Sideboard is really difficult because the main deck seems really tight, it would include some form of enchantment removal I guess, vs. o-rings and spreading seas, but other than that I wouldn't know. Conquering manticore seems good vs. some poly decks running emrakul...
I went up to 4 coats to assure them every game, I need them and I need them fast lol
Lost Garruk, added 2x Manticore. they're not bad in general, every deck has something I can grab, especially decks running polymorph and emrakul, which seems like it could pose a problem. I'm considering sb-ing ricochet trap and volcanic fallout just for that matchup. it's ridiculous, staring down a turn 4 15/15. Anyone else experiencing this?
Hmm, possible sideboard cards against polymorph:
All in Dust (Destroys both their win cons)
Vines of Vastwood
Lightning Bolt
Ricochet Trap
Your decklist look a little simuler to mine with the Coats and Monuments. I also think they are the best win cons in the deck. Awakening Zone + Monument + Coat + some Eldrazi = GG. Even if your opponent has 2 Baneslayers on the table, they literally have no chance of winning. Check out my decklist as it as I do have different card choices which you might like.
Sideboarding for this deck seems awkward as hell as almost every card is necessary. Let's see:
Sideboard:
4 Hand of Emrakul (This seems pretty neat against midranged decks if they side out all their removal. 3-5th turn Hand might be good. Not totally sure.)
4 Ricochet Trap (To resolve Monuments/Coats against Control)
4 Lightning Bolt (Against Polymorph?)
3 All in Dust (Against Planeswalker Control and maybe Bant)
Ding ding ding. You can basically play the Hand after t3 at will. A weak Eldrazi takes down the strongest creatures in most other decks.
You see, the thing about hand, is that every color besides red should and probably will pack an answer to it that will set you back more than it set them back.
It is for the same exact reason Terra Stomper never saw play, and that is, pound for pound, a better dude than Hand is. I would rather play Terra Stomper on turn 4 than Hand on turn 3.
I refuse to run the crappy eldrazi in here, because when you play this deck, the opponent is saving up his removal, because you are just popping out spawn all day.
When you finally drop something big, it will die.
That is why the only Eldrazi I would consider in here would be Ulamog, because he can survive nonwhite removal just fine. And sweepers.
I feel like far too many of the people here are living by the goldfish pipe dreams they are having, and probably testing FARRRR too much on MWS, which I feel is a pretty horrible place to test, because everyone plays their pet decks on there, among other issues.
Our deck is easy to disrupt.
If we attack from several angles, ('overrun' effects, hasty big dude, MORE tokens, big X spell) not so much.
Just avoid putting all your eggs into one basket and expecting every game to play out that same way. It won't.
BBE needs to be in the deck, I agree.
But common eldrazi? No thanks.
We all need to do more legitimate testing against legitimate decks, and make legitimate sideboards.
I want this deck to be great.
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Question: has anyone tried splashing blue yet? Getting any sort of a consistant build seems like it would be tricky, and BBE would probably have to be cut if you were running it in the first place, but the options in Unifed Will and Shared Discovery are pretty tempting. A counterspell provides answers to problem cards like DoJ, and a draw 3 for U is good stuff.
Urzassedatives, has skullmulcher tested well?
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currently playing---
Legacy: B currently brewing... W
EDH: RRosheen Meanderer G
The foolish wish for that which they desire. The cunning wish for that which they require.
Question: has anyone tried splashing blue yet? Getting any sort of a consistant build seems like it would be tricky, and BBE would probably have to be cut if you were running it in the first place, but the options in Unifed Will and Shared Discovery are pretty tempting. A counterspell provides answers to problem cards like DoJ, and a draw 3 for U is good stuff.
Urzassedatives, has skullmulcher tested well?
U is tempting and I think my version with Ancient Stirrings might be able to do it as it could fetch for Scalding Tarns, Misty Rainforests, or Islands. Not sure what I would cut though. There isn't much I need to have countered either as I have 4 Monuments so DoJ doesn't scare me. Draw 3 might be kind've sweet though.
Question: has anyone tried splashing blue yet? Getting any sort of a consistant build seems like it would be tricky, and BBE would probably have to be cut if you were running it in the first place, but the options in Unifed Will and Shared Discovery are pretty tempting. A counterspell provides answers to problem cards like DoJ, and a draw 3 for U is good stuff.
Urzassedatives, has skullmulcher tested well?
I haven't tested it yet, but I don't see how it would be inferior to Shared Discovery.
Shared Discovery
Pros:
-Always draw 3 cards
-Don't have to sac dudes
-'cheaper' cost
Cons:
-Can only draw 3 cards
-Can only cast if you have 4 or more dudes
-Have to splash another color for it
Skullmulcher
Cons:
-Have to sac dudes to it to get carddraw
-Costs 4G
Pros:
-Can draw quite a bit of cards.
-You can devour any amount you want.
-In color.
-Becomes a threat (6/6 body or more on average) once it hits the board.
As for Unified Will, I am not convinced we need that in here.
This deck is very resilient to sweepers. Awakening Zone?
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You see, the thing about hand, is that every color besides red should and probably will pack an answer to it that will set you back more than it set them back.
It is for the same exact reason Terra Stomper never saw play, and that is, pound for pound, a better dude than Hand is. I would rather play Terra Stomper on turn 4 than Hand on turn 3.
I refuse to run the crappy eldrazi in here, because when you play this deck, the opponent is saving up his removal, because you are just popping out spawn all day.
When you finally drop something big, it will die.
That is why the only Eldrazi I would consider in here would be Ulamog, because he can survive nonwhite removal just fine. And sweepers.
I feel like far too many of the people here are living by the goldfish pipe dreams they are having, and probably testing FARRRR too much on MWS, which I feel is a pretty horrible place to test, because everyone plays their pet decks on there, among other issues.
Our deck is easy to disrupt.
If we attack from several angles, ('overrun' effects, hasty big dude, MORE tokens, big X spell) not so much.
Just avoid putting all your eggs into one basket and expecting every game to play out that same way. It won't.
BBE needs to be in the deck, I agree.
But common eldrazi? No thanks.
We all need to do more legitimate testing against legitimate decks, and make legitimate sideboards.
I want this deck to be great.
The only time I have had that removal problem (in reference to the elrazi) is against White decks and Jund. And even then you make it sound like the rest of are creatures are going to be something they won't bother shooting removal at. Trust me, when they see that Broodwarden hit play with 2 or more spawns on the table (and sometimes even 0) they hit the Warden. I have tested alot and this deck creates many interesting problems for your opponent.
I have sat and watched Jund players think for 20 minutes straight about wether to hit my Bombardments or Awakening Zone. I have seen White Weenie decks worry about wether to hit my Warden or my Crusher.
I am not pipedreaming. There have been many times (due to mana dorks or Next Invader) that I have hit turn three BBE elf, or kicked a riunblaster against Jund on turn three (its crippling to their manabase).
Whats in everyones side?
I use Lavaball (2) and Riunblaster (3) for Jund (it somes out early with the acceleration) to kill thier manabase (plus it kills all of thier dudes).
Manabarbs (3) and Monument (2) for control.
Grazing Gladeheart (3) for RDW
Pithing Needle (2) for whatever random stuff I come against.
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Modern (I collect the format):
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron WDeath and Taxes WSoul Sisters RWG Pod Combo URSplinter Twin URStorm RBurn
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If you run Broodwarden and/or any Eldrazi then the Monument is the way to go.
If you're going purely for the token swarm then I second the Ascension route with Garruk backup. However you guys running 7/8 overrun cards .... test that because it seems way too much.
@Urza: Yes, I run 3 BBE's with 2 x spells, and I havnt hit a single banefire. I've only casted it a few times also, they like to hide deep within my deck.
@Principal: I'm running 8 "overrun" effects (counting Broodwarden) and I've been doing fine. Maybe some of you guys like a horde of 0/1s not doing anything but looking pretty; I for one prefer them killing the opponent, and 10 pump effects is simply a requirement when running a token deck that produces tokens completely incapable of offense. Of course there will be variations, but I think thats a good number of pumpers.
I find it funny that you say hatcher and predator are too slow and yet you tell me to run Rapacious One, which costs more, has a good chance of dying before he makes anything, and doesnt help you win with ascension nearly as fast as hatcher and predator do.
I put the mights in for a little bit of a combat trick since this deck doesnt really have any of that other than bolt. Though I could see taking it out for a couple zones.
I would like to run BBE, but Im not sure about taking out the birds for em. This deck is slow to get out the door so Id like the accel in there. Ill try it out with the elves though.
It only needs to happen ONCE for you to realize how bad it feels.
It isn't worth it.
Think of it this way, would you rather devote slots to a card that, when drawn early on, can speed things out...
Or a card that is good at any stage of the game, is a threat on its own, and grabs and plays another spell (possibly a wincon) out of your deck for free?
Twitter
@Urza: I guess I like Banefire for when I can't push through those last few bits of damage or my opponent is hiding behind a bunch of walls and i'm not drawing any ascensions or wardens. I will keep it in until we think of something better.
The predator makes two tokens.
So if he dies to bolt then oh well, you got two spawns out of it. He has an immediate board presence with those spawns. Granted he does die to bolt and One doesnt, but One does die to any other removal. So if you play predator and he dies to removal you still got two spawns, if One dies to removal then you got nothing.
EDIT: Tried out the Bloodbraid/Ascension idea and wasn't happy with it. Day of Judgment just hurts too much not to run Monument. That card just wins games. So here is my decklist now.
4 Raging Ravine
4 Rootbound Crag
10 Forest
6 Mountain
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Brood Birthing
4 Growth Spasm
4 Awakening Zone
4 Nest Invaders
4 Kozilek's Predator
4 Emrakul's Hatcher
Artifacts (8)
4 Coat of Arms
4 Eldrazi Monument
Took out the Skittering for another Monument. You absolutely have to have one out by turn 4-5 or you are going to die.
The only thing I don't like about this deck is that Growth Spasm and Ancient Stirrings is kind of a bombo as Spasm will reshuffle your deck. I think it's a necessary evil though, but maybe a couple copies of Spawning Breath could be played in it's place. The other thing that I don't like is how slow the deck is. It's not entirely slow if you get a great draw, but I was playing against Mythic. Mythic HURTS if they get an early Elspeth or Sovereign. Monument is really the card you need to have to survive against them. My friend was also playing a homebrew mono white control deck with Gideon and he is also a pain. Usually, you are trying to stabilize and you play a Coat or Monument, but forcing everyone to attack Gideon kind've makes you loose.
Personally, I think the deck could use a transformative sb with different wincons, so the opponent never really knows the ways you can win out of nowhere.
4 goblin assault
2 predator dragon
2 comet storm
2 all is dust
3 ulmalog
2 pathrazer
something like that could be interesting...
Twitter
4 Raging Ravine
4 Tectonic Edge
2 Evolving Wilds
8 Forest
6 Mountain
Spells
4 Brood Birthing
4 Growth Spasm
4 Awakening Zone
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Beastmaster's Ascension
2 Coat of Arms
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 All is Dust
4 Nest Invader
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Skullmulcher
4 goblin assault
2 predator dragon
2 comet storm
2 all is dust
2 Ulamog, the infinite gyre
3 Siege-Gang Commander
Really want to test this deck some more, this is what I plan to put together in its next iteration.
Twitter
it seems like birds + elves/hierarch would be really good in this build especially if you added in goblin assaults main deck which seem considerable since u do run 4 beastmaster ascension.
also how good is growth spasm? i just dont see it being that great to play in this deck... but i also havnt tested with it.
All in Dust (Destroys both their win cons)
Vines of Vastwood
Lightning Bolt
Ricochet Trap
Your decklist look a little simuler to mine with the Coats and Monuments. I also think they are the best win cons in the deck. Awakening Zone + Monument + Coat + some Eldrazi = GG. Even if your opponent has 2 Baneslayers on the table, they literally have no chance of winning. Check out my decklist as it as I do have different card choices which you might like.
Sideboarding for this deck seems awkward as hell as almost every card is necessary. Let's see:
Sideboard:
4 Hand of Emrakul (This seems pretty neat against midranged decks if they side out all their removal. 3-5th turn Hand might be good. Not totally sure.)
4 Ricochet Trap (To resolve Monuments/Coats against Control)
4 Lightning Bolt (Against Polymorph?)
3 All in Dust (Against Planeswalker Control and maybe Bant)
thats funny...i was just looking at him today and thinking he would be a good 2-of in this deck...bout to test it out later
T2: Nest Invader
T3: BBE into (Lightning Bolt, Zone, Raid Bombard, Acension, Nest Invader)
Swing five at minimum? Seven at best (with bombardment on the field). Eight if you bolt thier face.
There is so much good stuff to cascade into with this deck. There are few times I find myself sad at cascade results with this deck.
I think running the smaller eldrazi (like Hand or Crusher) is a good idea. Especially since I have used this deck to churn out a turn 5 Crusher.
Devestating.
I think the main strength of this deck is its ability to chump block like a champ and then Alpha Strike fearlessly on you turn.
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
Ding ding ding. You can basically play the Hand after t3 at will. A weak Eldrazi takes down the strongest creatures in most other decks.
You see, the thing about hand, is that every color besides red should and probably will pack an answer to it that will set you back more than it set them back.
It is for the same exact reason Terra Stomper never saw play, and that is, pound for pound, a better dude than Hand is. I would rather play Terra Stomper on turn 4 than Hand on turn 3.
I refuse to run the crappy eldrazi in here, because when you play this deck, the opponent is saving up his removal, because you are just popping out spawn all day.
When you finally drop something big, it will die.
That is why the only Eldrazi I would consider in here would be Ulamog, because he can survive nonwhite removal just fine. And sweepers.
I feel like far too many of the people here are living by the goldfish pipe dreams they are having, and probably testing FARRRR too much on MWS, which I feel is a pretty horrible place to test, because everyone plays their pet decks on there, among other issues.
Our deck is easy to disrupt.
If we attack from several angles, ('overrun' effects, hasty big dude, MORE tokens, big X spell) not so much.
Just avoid putting all your eggs into one basket and expecting every game to play out that same way. It won't.
BBE needs to be in the deck, I agree.
But common eldrazi? No thanks.
We all need to do more legitimate testing against legitimate decks, and make legitimate sideboards.
I want this deck to be great.
Twitter
Urzassedatives, has skullmulcher tested well?
Legacy: B currently brewing... W
EDH: RRosheen Meanderer G
I haven't tested it yet, but I don't see how it would be inferior to Shared Discovery.
Shared Discovery
Pros:
-Always draw 3 cards
-Don't have to sac dudes
-'cheaper' cost
Cons:
-Can only draw 3 cards
-Can only cast if you have 4 or more dudes
-Have to splash another color for it
Skullmulcher
Cons:
-Have to sac dudes to it to get carddraw
-Costs 4G
Pros:
-Can draw quite a bit of cards.
-You can devour any amount you want.
-In color.
-Becomes a threat (6/6 body or more on average) once it hits the board.
As for Unified Will, I am not convinced we need that in here.
This deck is very resilient to sweepers. Awakening Zone?
Twitter
The only time I have had that removal problem (in reference to the elrazi) is against White decks and Jund. And even then you make it sound like the rest of are creatures are going to be something they won't bother shooting removal at. Trust me, when they see that Broodwarden hit play with 2 or more spawns on the table (and sometimes even 0) they hit the Warden. I have tested alot and this deck creates many interesting problems for your opponent.
I have sat and watched Jund players think for 20 minutes straight about wether to hit my Bombardments or Awakening Zone. I have seen White Weenie decks worry about wether to hit my Warden or my Crusher.
I am not pipedreaming. There have been many times (due to mana dorks or Next Invader) that I have hit turn three BBE elf, or kicked a riunblaster against Jund on turn three (its crippling to their manabase).
Whats in everyones side?
I use Lavaball (2) and Riunblaster (3) for Jund (it somes out early with the acceleration) to kill thier manabase (plus it kills all of thier dudes).
Manabarbs (3) and Monument (2) for control.
Grazing Gladeheart (3) for RDW
Pithing Needle (2) for whatever random stuff I come against.
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn