Why isn't Tendrils, Urge, and Disfigure mentioned? Even Gatekeeper can be counted as removal =/.
Tendrils doesn't automatically destroy/exile a creature. Sure, it's only really used to destroy a creature, just as the others are, including Consume Spirit, but they don't automatically do it.
Tendrils doesn't automatically destroy/exile a creature. Sure, it's only really used to destroy a creature, just as the others are, including Consume Spirit, but they don't automatically do it.
If it's a spell that can be used to kill a creature, it's removal.
Tendrils doesn't automatically destroy/exile a creature. Sure, it's only really used to destroy a creature, just as the others are, including Consume Spirit, but they don't automatically do it.
Lightwielder isn't really removal as it doesn't trigger unless it hits, however, Angel and Devout should be included. If you aren't including them, then we have to cut things like Purge, Pitfall Trap, Verdict, Feast of Blood, and so forth as all of those have conditions that don't allow them to kill creatures unless "condition x" is met, in the same sense that Urge has condition "x" as 3 or less toughness.
Lightwielder isn't really removal as it doesn't trigger unless it hits, however, Angel and Devout should be included. If you aren't including them, then we have to cut things like Purge, Pitfall Trap, Verdict, Feast of Blood, and so forth as all of those have conditions that don't allow them to kill creatures unless "condition x" is met, in the same sense that Urge has condition "x" as 3 or less toughness.
That's why I didn't include Urge and I'm referring specifically to spells, not creatures, for this thread. We can leave the creatures for another thread.
By the way, Admonition Angel has a condition as well...a land needs to come into play. It doesn't matter what condition it is, such as dealing damage to a player in order to exile a permanent...the fact is that each have conditions, but both have removal abilities.
That's why I didn't include Urge and I'm referring specifically to spells, not creatures, for this thread. We can leave the creatures for another thread.
By the way, Admonition Angel has a condition as well...a land needs to come into play. It doesn't matter what condition it is, such as dealing damage to a player in order to exile a permanent...the fact is that each have conditions, but both have removal abilities.
So why are half the spells up there then?
The reason Paladin isn't a removal spell in any real sense is because he has to make contact with the player, so if they have a black/red creature in play, they'll throw it in his path and avoid taking 4, while still losing that creature or a better one. Further more, all of the others are cast and can function as removal on the turn they are cast (Angel being the most questionable of the bunch, but having a fetch or land in hand isn't unreasonable), Paladin on the other hand can't function as a removal spell when he hits play.
The reason Paladin isn't a removal spell in any real sense is because he has to make contact with the player, so if they have a black/red creature in play, they'll throw it in his path and avoid taking 4, while still losing that creature or a better one. Further more, all of the others are cast and can function as removal on the turn they are cast (Angel being the most questionable of the bunch, but having a fetch or land in hand isn't unreasonable), Paladin on the other hand can't function as a removal spell when he hits play.
You're getting way too technical. I was not referring to creature removal spells without conditions. I simply asked for creature removal spells, regardless of what their conditions, in order to cast the spell, may be. If they have conditions, then maybe they aren't as good of removal spells as ones without conditions, but, technically speaking, they are still removal spells.
You're getting way too technical. I was not referring to creature removal spells without conditions. I simply asked for creature removal spells, regardless of what their conditions, in order to cast the spell, may be. If they have conditions, then maybe they aren't as good of removal spells as ones without conditions, but, technically speaking, they are still removal spells.
So then Urge, Disfigure, Tendrils, and so forth should all be included.
I voted for white because shroud creatures and malakir bloodwitch are the only creatures who can dodge their main removal. Sure doom blade, feast of blood and deathmark can hit almost anything, but white can remove creatures and any permanent. I would say that outside of creature kill, green has the best removal.
So then Urge, Disfigure, Tendrils, and so forth should all be included.
No. Urge and Disfigure are not removal. In fact, Tendrils isn't removal either. Sure, they can "act" as removals, but that's the same as saying "Clone is a great defender because he can copy Wall of Reverence". The cards you've mentioned first act as "support". For example:
4/4 Creature attacks
7/7 Creature blocks
In response, you can play Tendrils to do X damage to target blocking creature in order to "aid" your creature in combat, just as people do with Lightning Bolt and what not. The same can be said about Urge to Feed and Disfigure. They can, potentially, destroy a creature with their abilities, but they don't automatically do it. Why? You can Urge to Feed a 3/3 creature, but in response, your opponent can play a Righteousness or a Giant Growth. Is Urge to Feed a "true" removal? No. If a player can counter/alter the effects of a "removal" spell, other than playing a "counter"/"Protection"/"Shroud", then it's not really a "removal" in the traditional sense. I'm specifically referring to spells that read "destroy" or "exile".
If we were to include them, then I can say "Omnath, Locus of Mana is removal because, once he's a 20/20, he can kill anything." No, just no. It's a lot less practical and a lot more hypothetical.
I voted for white because shroud creatures and malakir bloodwitch are the only creatures who can dodge their main removal. Sure doom blade, feast of blood and deathmark can hit almost anything, but white can remove creatures and any permanent. I would say that outside of creature kill, green has the best removal.
Well said. I'm glad White has DoJ and Planar Cleansing to deal with Shroud and Protection from White.
No. Urge and Disfigure are not removal. In fact, Tendrils isn't removal either. Sure, they can "act" as removals, but that's the same as saying "Clone is a great defender because he can copy Wall of Reverence". The cards you've mentioned first act as "support". For example:
4/4 Creature attacks
7/7 Creature blocks
In response, you can play Tendrils to do X damage to target blocking creature in order to "aid" your creature in combat, just as people do with Lightning Bolt and what not. The same can be said about Urge to Feed and Disfigure. They can, potentially, destroy a creature with their abilities, but they don't automatically do it. Why? You can Urge to Feed a 3/3 creature, but in response, your opponent can play a Righteousness or a Giant Growth. Is Urge to Feed a "true" removal? No. If a player can counter/alter the effects of a "removal" spell, other than playing a "counter"/"Protection"/"Shroud", then it's not really a "removal" in the traditional sense.
If we were to include them, then I can say "Omnath, Locus of Mana is removal because, once he's a 20/20, he can kill anything." No, just no.
So vampires plays 0 removal spells?
Then the following aren't removal either: Instant:
Consume Spirit Can't kill toughness>X Assassinate Can't hit untapped / vigilance /etc Bone Splinters Can't hit pro black / shroud Deathmark Can only kill White/Green Feast of Blood Can't kill Shroud/Problack/if you don't have 2 vamps Wretched Banquet Can't hit if target player doesn't have creatures that are lower in cost than yours.
Day of Judgment Can't hit indestructible, can be regenerated out of, reads kill target Dauntless Escort at times. Iona's Judgment Can't hit pro/shroud Planar Cleansing Same as DoJ, also it does very little vs. Thrinax. Solemn Offering Can't hit creatures.
Consume Spirit Can't kill toughness>X Assassinate Can't hit untapped / vigilance /etc Bone Splinters Can't hit pro black / shroud Deathmark Can only kill White/Green Feast of Blood Can't kill Shroud/Problack/if you don't have 2 vamps Wretched Banquet Can't hit if target player doesn't have creatures that are lower in cost than yours.
Day of Judgment Can't hit indestructible, can be regenerated out of, reads kill target Dauntless Escort at times. Iona's Judgment Can't hit pro/shroud Planar Cleansing Same as DoJ, also it does very little vs. Thrinax. Solemn Offering Can't hit creatures.
Conclusion: Standard has no removal in it what so ever. Swerve also disrupts your theory of Shroud/Protection/Counterspell.
You're not getting the point of this thread, are you?
Let me make this a bit easier for you to understand:
Player A:
-Play Path to Exile against target creature
Player B:
-Exiles his/her creature from the game
That's removal and could only be stopped by Indestructibility (if it's a "destroy" spell), Shroud, Protection from White/Everything (Progenitus), Counter Target Spell (or Swerve), or an effect like Narrow Escape (Master Transmuter). Removal spells don't care about how big the creature is and your opponent can't buff it or prevent any damage done to his creatures in order to stop a removal.
On the other hand, negative counter spells, such as Urge to Feed/Disfigure don't necessarily destroy/exile creatures from play. They are more conditions involved. You can't use Urge to Feed against Omnath, Locus of Mana if a player has open land to make it bigger. Your opponent may have a Rest for the Weary + Cradle of Vitality to buff up his creature. Etc. etc. In other words, spells like these can act as removals, but are not removals in the automatic, traditional sense.
You can't use Urge to Feed against Omnath, Locus of Mana if a player has open land to make it bigger.
And you can't use Celestial Purge against Omnath at all, your point?
You made a crap thread where you don't take into account some of the best removal in the game right now and on top of that, you go on to deny things like Gatekeeper, which is an Edict first and a Bear second. There's no point to this thread in the terms that you're trying to define it as it's simply too narrow and turns into an exercise in futility.
Now if you want to sit here and make noise about how Mono-B Vampires plays 0 removal spells, then be my guest... But clearly by all the responses so far, most people disagree with your weird ideology of what is or isn't "removal". Hell, blue and red don't have removal by your standards... At all.
No. Urge and Disfigure are not removal. In fact, Tendrils isn't removal either. Sure, they can "act" as removals, but that's the same as saying "Clone is a great defender because he can copy Wall of Reverence". The cards you've mentioned first act as "support".
If you go around saying this, you will, quite simply, not be taken seriously. The convention that cards such as Lightning Bolt, Tendrils of Corruption, Burst Lightning, et. al. are colloquially referred to as "removal spells" far precedes your given convention that "removal" implicates "exile" or "destroy."
You're not getting the point of this thread, are you?
Let me make this a bit easier for you to understand:
Player A:
-Play Path to Exile against target creature
Player B:
-Exiles his/her creature from the game
That's removal and could only be stopped by Indestructibility (if it's a "destroy" spell), Shroud, Protection from White/Everything (Progenitus), Counter Target Spell (or Swerve), or an effect like Narrow Escape (Master Transmuter). Removal spells don't care about how big the creature is and your opponent can't buff it or prevent any damage done to his creatures in order to stop a removal.
On the other hand, negative counter spells, such as Urge to Feed/Disfigure don't necessarily destroy/exile creatures from play. They are more conditions involved. You can't use Urge to Feed against Omnath, Locus of Mana if a player has open land to make it bigger. Your opponent may have a Rest for the Weary + Cradle of Vitality to buff up his creature. Etc. etc. In other words, spells like these can act as removals, but are not removals in the automatic, traditional sense.
Well then the thread title is very misleading, because removal ≠ cards with "exile" and "destroy" in their name. Also toughness tends to be far less limiting than nonblack and CMC and whether it's dealt damage or another creature dies.
Rest for the Weary + Cradle of Vitality
If my opponent has this, I guess I get blown out (I'll be sure to run it as sideboard tech against vamps).
Gonna have to agree with Demagogue here; you've got a very strange definition of removal, OP, and you're being inconsistent in classifying spells as "removal."
Yes, your opponent could have a Giant Growth to thwart your Disfigure. How is that any different from them using a Vines of Vastwood, which would work against the Disfigure or any other spot removal you've named?
Sometimes removal is relevant, sometimes it is not. Sphinx of Jwar Isle is good because it makes spot-removal irrelevant, but it still gets removed by say, Gatekeeper. The Gatekeeper might not be relevant in a different situation, for example in the mirror while the opponent has a Bloodghast on the field. That doesn't mean it's not removal, it's just not relevant in that situation.
There are several criterion on which you can judge removal; applicability or relevance is an important factor to consider. Sure, Disfigure might not be as relevant as Iona's Judgment against a Baneslayer Angel, but which card would you rather have against a T1 Goblin Guide?
If you want to discuss the quality of removal, you have to consider all the removal available. Disfigure is great removal, I'd say probably better than Doom Blade in the current standard meta. Tendrils is an amazing removal spell, and one of a few very encouraging reasons to stay mono-black. If you don't want to consider "damage/toughness" based removal, well, I don't know what you're really discussing then :\
If my opponent has this, I guess I get blown out (I'll be sure to run it as sideboard tech against vamps).
Oh man! Wait for it! Narrow Escape + Cradle of Vitality... I think we just broke Standard by avoiding toughness based removal and destruction/exile removal.
Why have we been so blind! All of a sudden their Bit Blast that Cascades into a Pulse/Terminate is meaningless because we gain 4 while countering the Terminate/Pulse and put enough counters on the other creature to survive a Bit Blast! Pro Tour, here we come with our epic tech! [/sarcasm]
Feast. Of. Blood. Seriously? I hardly even use the card in limited, I'd pick Deathmark or Wretched Banquet or Bone Splinters over this card in terms of overall competitive "Destroy" usefulness any day.
With the new title, there is no point in having green,blue or red in the poll.
None of these colours has any noticable amount of destroy/exile cards available....
You're not getting the point of this thread, are you?
That's removal and could only be stopped by Indestructibility (if it's a "destroy" spell), Shroud, Protection from White/Everything (Progenitus), Counter Target Spell (or Swerve), or an effect like Narrow Escape (Master Transmuter). Removal spells don't care about how big the creature is and your opponent can't buff it or prevent any damage done to his creatures in order to stop a removal.
On the other hand, negative counter spells, such as Urge to Feed/Disfigure don't necessarily destroy/exile creatures from play. They are more conditions involved. You can't use Urge to Feed against Omnath, Locus of Mana if a player has open land to make it bigger. Your opponent may have a Rest for the Weary + Cradle of Vitality to buff up his creature. Etc. etc. In other words, spells like these can act as removals, but are not removals in the automatic, traditional sense.
Ah, so you're the one who is allowed to set the criteria for what we, the players, define as a "removal spell". I'm glad to know.
And your argument fails. Any "hard" removal spell you speak of can be countered if your opponent has mana open and meets some conditions (Vines/Swerve in the case of Path, Dauntless Escort in play in the case of most other removal you speak of).
Look at it this way: you're only ever going to use a Disfigure or a Tendrils to kill a creature, therefore, it's creature removal. Is that so hard?
This looks like it excludes burn, and it does. Burn is burn, and it CAN be used as removal (therefore not ineligible, but better: it is multifunctional, a great thing to have in Magic cards). This doesn't mean that Burn is no Removal, it does mean that it does not have to be.
B Instant:
B Sorcery:
B Enchantment:
Total: 11
W Instant:
W Sorcery:
W Enchantment:
WArtifact:
Scourglass
Total: 11
What do you think?
I really REALLY hate white right now.
Norn Queen of Hive Fleet Pesc
Monster Hunter Lover!
I think the top 3 best, universal removals, for white are:
1. Path to Exile
2. Journey to Nowhere
3. Day of Judgment
For black:
1. Smother
2. Doom Blade
3. Feast of Blood
Tendrils doesn't automatically destroy/exile a creature. Sure, it's only really used to destroy a creature, just as the others are, including Consume Spirit, but they don't automatically do it.
If you want to get as broad as creatures, or spells that don't technically say "destroy/exile", then I can throw in Admonition Angel, Lightwielder Paladin, Devout Lightcaster, etc. Let's keep this focused.
Also a few notable cards: Burst Lightning, Searing Blaze, Earthquake, Volcanic Fallout, pyroclasm.
If it's a spell that can be used to kill a creature, it's removal.
Seems like this is unanimous, so I'll include them. I still say white, though.
4 Path to Exile
4 Journey to Nowhere
4 Day of Judgment
Throw in Admonition Angel and that's tough to play against, unless you're playing direct damage spells or counters to stop them.
Lightwielder isn't really removal as it doesn't trigger unless it hits, however, Angel and Devout should be included. If you aren't including them, then we have to cut things like Purge, Pitfall Trap, Verdict, Feast of Blood, and so forth as all of those have conditions that don't allow them to kill creatures unless "condition x" is met, in the same sense that Urge has condition "x" as 3 or less toughness.
That's why I didn't include Urge and I'm referring specifically to spells, not creatures, for this thread. We can leave the creatures for another thread.
By the way, Admonition Angel has a condition as well...a land needs to come into play. It doesn't matter what condition it is, such as dealing damage to a player in order to exile a permanent...the fact is that each have conditions, but both have removal abilities.
So why are half the spells up there then?
The reason Paladin isn't a removal spell in any real sense is because he has to make contact with the player, so if they have a black/red creature in play, they'll throw it in his path and avoid taking 4, while still losing that creature or a better one. Further more, all of the others are cast and can function as removal on the turn they are cast (Angel being the most questionable of the bunch, but having a fetch or land in hand isn't unreasonable), Paladin on the other hand can't function as a removal spell when he hits play.
You're getting way too technical. I was not referring to creature removal spells without conditions. I simply asked for creature removal spells, regardless of what their conditions, in order to cast the spell, may be. If they have conditions, then maybe they aren't as good of removal spells as ones without conditions, but, technically speaking, they are still removal spells.
So then Urge, Disfigure, Tendrils, and so forth should all be included.
No. Urge and Disfigure are not removal. In fact, Tendrils isn't removal either. Sure, they can "act" as removals, but that's the same as saying "Clone is a great defender because he can copy Wall of Reverence". The cards you've mentioned first act as "support". For example:
4/4 Creature attacks
7/7 Creature blocks
In response, you can play Tendrils to do X damage to target blocking creature in order to "aid" your creature in combat, just as people do with Lightning Bolt and what not. The same can be said about Urge to Feed and Disfigure. They can, potentially, destroy a creature with their abilities, but they don't automatically do it. Why? You can Urge to Feed a 3/3 creature, but in response, your opponent can play a Righteousness or a Giant Growth. Is Urge to Feed a "true" removal? No. If a player can counter/alter the effects of a "removal" spell, other than playing a "counter"/"Protection"/"Shroud", then it's not really a "removal" in the traditional sense. I'm specifically referring to spells that read "destroy" or "exile".
If we were to include them, then I can say "Omnath, Locus of Mana is removal because, once he's a 20/20, he can kill anything." No, just no. It's a lot less practical and a lot more hypothetical.
Well said. I'm glad White has DoJ and Planar Cleansing to deal with Shroud and Protection from White.
Then the following aren't removal either:
Instant:
Doom Blade : Can't hit black creatures or pro black.
Hideous End Can't hit black or pro black.
Smother Can't hit above 3 CMC
Tendrils of Corruption Can't hit above Toughness > swamps
Sorcery:
Consume Spirit Can't kill toughness>X
Assassinate Can't hit untapped / vigilance /etc
Bone Splinters Can't hit pro black / shroud
Deathmark Can only kill White/Green
Feast of Blood Can't kill Shroud/Problack/if you don't have 2 vamps
Wretched Banquet Can't hit if target player doesn't have creatures that are lower in cost than yours.
Enchantment:
Brink of Disaster Pro black / vigilance / shroud/ pro enchantments
Mire Blight Same as above, except things that can't take damage for whatever reason.
Yoke of the Damned Once again.
Celestial Purge Only hits Red/Black
Divine Verdict Only hits attacking, can't hit pro/shroud
Path to Exile Can't hit pro/shroud
Pitfall Trap Attacking only, none flying, can't hit pro/shroud.
Sorcery:
Day of Judgment Can't hit indestructible, can be regenerated out of, reads kill target Dauntless Escort at times.
Iona's Judgment Can't hit pro/shroud
Planar Cleansing Same as DoJ, also it does very little vs. Thrinax.
Solemn Offering Can't hit creatures.
Enchantment:
Journey to Nowhere Can't hit pro/shroud, can be removed to bring back creature.
Oblivion Ring Same as above
Conclusion: Standard has no removal in it what so ever. Vines/Swerve also disrupts your theory of Shroud/Protection/Counterspell.
You're not getting the point of this thread, are you?
Let me make this a bit easier for you to understand:
Player A:
-Play Path to Exile against target creature
Player B:
-Exiles his/her creature from the game
That's removal and could only be stopped by Indestructibility (if it's a "destroy" spell), Shroud, Protection from White/Everything (Progenitus), Counter Target Spell (or Swerve), or an effect like Narrow Escape (Master Transmuter). Removal spells don't care about how big the creature is and your opponent can't buff it or prevent any damage done to his creatures in order to stop a removal.
On the other hand, negative counter spells, such as Urge to Feed/Disfigure don't necessarily destroy/exile creatures from play. They are more conditions involved. You can't use Urge to Feed against Omnath, Locus of Mana if a player has open land to make it bigger. Your opponent may have a Rest for the Weary + Cradle of Vitality to buff up his creature. Etc. etc. In other words, spells like these can act as removals, but are not removals in the automatic, traditional sense.
And you can't use Celestial Purge against Omnath at all, your point?
You made a crap thread where you don't take into account some of the best removal in the game right now and on top of that, you go on to deny things like Gatekeeper, which is an Edict first and a Bear second. There's no point to this thread in the terms that you're trying to define it as it's simply too narrow and turns into an exercise in futility.
Now if you want to sit here and make noise about how Mono-B Vampires plays 0 removal spells, then be my guest... But clearly by all the responses so far, most people disagree with your weird ideology of what is or isn't "removal". Hell, blue and red don't have removal by your standards... At all.
If you go around saying this, you will, quite simply, not be taken seriously. The convention that cards such as Lightning Bolt, Tendrils of Corruption, Burst Lightning, et. al. are colloquially referred to as "removal spells" far precedes your given convention that "removal" implicates "exile" or "destroy."
Well then the thread title is very misleading, because removal ≠ cards with "exile" and "destroy" in their name. Also toughness tends to be far less limiting than nonblack and CMC and whether it's dealt damage or another creature dies.
If my opponent has this, I guess I get blown out (I'll be sure to run it as sideboard tech against vamps).
Yes, your opponent could have a Giant Growth to thwart your Disfigure. How is that any different from them using a Vines of Vastwood, which would work against the Disfigure or any other spot removal you've named?
Sometimes removal is relevant, sometimes it is not. Sphinx of Jwar Isle is good because it makes spot-removal irrelevant, but it still gets removed by say, Gatekeeper. The Gatekeeper might not be relevant in a different situation, for example in the mirror while the opponent has a Bloodghast on the field. That doesn't mean it's not removal, it's just not relevant in that situation.
There are several criterion on which you can judge removal; applicability or relevance is an important factor to consider. Sure, Disfigure might not be as relevant as Iona's Judgment against a Baneslayer Angel, but which card would you rather have against a T1 Goblin Guide?
If you want to discuss the quality of removal, you have to consider all the removal available. Disfigure is great removal, I'd say probably better than Doom Blade in the current standard meta. Tendrils is an amazing removal spell, and one of a few very encouraging reasons to stay mono-black. If you don't want to consider "damage/toughness" based removal, well, I don't know what you're really discussing then :\
Oh man! Wait for it! Narrow Escape + Cradle of Vitality... I think we just broke Standard by avoiding toughness based removal and destruction/exile removal.
Why have we been so blind! All of a sudden their Bit Blast that Cascades into a Pulse/Terminate is meaningless because we gain 4 while countering the Terminate/Pulse and put enough counters on the other creature to survive a Bit Blast! Pro Tour, here we come with our epic tech! [/sarcasm]
I also would agree to going black for Royal Assassin, Gatekeeper, Blade, hex tomb, Disfigure, marsh casualties, etc, etc its stupid how many it has.
Feast. Of. Blood. Seriously? I hardly even use the card in limited, I'd pick Deathmark or Wretched Banquet or Bone Splinters over this card in terms of overall competitive "Destroy" usefulness any day.
None of these colours has any noticable amount of destroy/exile cards available....
Fail thread is fail?
Ah, so you're the one who is allowed to set the criteria for what we, the players, define as a "removal spell". I'm glad to know.
And your argument fails. Any "hard" removal spell you speak of can be countered if your opponent has mana open and meets some conditions (Vines/Swerve in the case of Path, Dauntless Escort in play in the case of most other removal you speak of).
Look at it this way: you're only ever going to use a Disfigure or a Tendrils to kill a creature, therefore, it's creature removal. Is that so hard?
This looks like it excludes burn, and it does. Burn is burn, and it CAN be used as removal (therefore not ineligible, but better: it is multifunctional, a great thing to have in Magic cards). This doesn't mean that Burn is no Removal, it does mean that it does not have to be.
And to keep ontopic:
The best spot removal cards in standard are (in no specific order, monocolor only):
Path to Exile
Lightning Bolt
Smother
Tendrils of Corruption
Burst Lightning
Celestial Purge
T2: BUW Esper Control
Ext: BW Aggro